my name is Suzanne Goldberg I'm a lawyer staff attorney with Lambda legal defense and education fund and try this if you don't know Lambda we've been around 23 years although obviously not been there all that time and we do all sorts of test case litigation on behalf of lesbians and gay men within people with HIV and AIDS so what we really do is take cases where we try to change the law in some ways to secure rights for gay people people with HIV and I do a whole range of work there some family work which is obviously what we're going to talk about today but also I've worked on anti-gay initiatives was counseled on my challenge to the Colorado anti-gay Amendment among others, but you know how many people were at the plenary this morning the most happy there okay greatyou know what I was thinking about this discussion I thought you're there are so many different ways we could approach the issue of what forming and maintaining lesbian families is really about in one of the teams that came up this morning was obviously that the law is not a very good measure of what family is it so I thought one of the things we might do is actually reflect on is that really true or just that necessarily have to be true you know are there ways to make the law better reflective of what families are not I guess this is what I was trying to do in law school of course he never liked you see a word without asking but what does that really mean what is that really what are we talkin about forming what are we talking about when we talk about maintainingwhat do we talk about when we talk about a lesbian family when we what is that mean even I'm so I thought that those are some of the the big themes that I thought we could talk about in the other thing I thought would be helpful in all of this discussion is talk about what what are the purposes of family you know what are we trying to get at when we talk about forming and maintaining a family before we start I thought I would talk some but really we're suited for discussion that we could each go around and say our names and just you know so you know what do you do to school here dude are you a lawyer or whatever but then also what it is like if you had to identify one or two things that informs your perspective on what family is run what a lesbian family is what would you say that you don't take it for whatever because I think about Unity the mix of us that will actually help us get the discussion going so to be fair I'll start like I said my name is Suzanne Goldberg and you already know what I do but I think that the two things that really shaped my perspective on what that probably more than two but two of the things that she ate my my perspective would a lesbian families is partly my work Atlanta and seeing lesbian families so defined or not coming into conflict with the law and with each other and end the relationship of those family to the legal system and then the second thing is sort of seeing me as a lesbian in connection to pick up my partner in connection to the child which we are about to have which is my partner was the person on the panel this morning to mention that your partner is about to have a child or not about to Pizza Hut in the near future and so that's that's part of what she did for me see you in just go around actually I work for American Express college so I have been trying to keep up with the baby being around this issue I don't know I really have to give it a lot of thought actually I think of it more than that I think the lesbian families community hike to be honest kids I guess that's one of the reasons I'm here today Annie I graduated college still Las Vegas university Law School in the village. And I guess my own struggle with family issues and family the conflict between a fairly traditional if intellectualized half a cup ringing in my ear again also I'm also organizing intrusive no I have muscles where does it say if you come play such a big deal for the general public knowledge that actually baked is Justin Combs family my life it's really the definition of doctors Jennifer law Street and child child development and I guess in with that I find it mostly I approach family as raisins for children, so do you know themselves raisin create person I guess my own Winx just come a couple years ago that kind of deconstruction of my own family as I knew it feel like a cross between my upbringing and the Bee I mean what I mean find Molly in Annapolis and I'm proud of my Tinder account unless he's going to come try my best friend was raised by not like a lesbian couple but about 8 but like I hope so and I also looking there any of those Empire what are the question is who are you so do you know what what are you doing in life at the moment but also what is it that it forms your definition of what family isn't specifically what Lesbian Family I live in the US 91 changing moods NOAA weather me at this point I guess you're going to do with me I heard that yesterday was my perspective on what to do with kids and the reason I think which is New York weather are still involved financially and emotionally with their biological parents motherhood so is her name is Michael with a B I love my family and do other things because of that LOL I definition family counseling program Ashley I and I guess my give love your family and individual thing you know I mean it it's amazing because I think I got what I was doing a lot of people are saying there are so many different types of definitions of family we all can a dog get some of them are informed by how we grew up some of them are formed by what situation we're in now or what are the situations of people who we see around us and you know it works right I mean in life sort of funeral going from one place to another one situation to another one country to another you know it's kind of confusing you know there's not and at the same time as there is some social pressure to conform to a traditional definition of family whatever that is below us assume it's a heterosexual married couple note often with children either there's no there's nothing that tells you you can't think about family in a broad range of ways you can think about it however you want to think about it you know but part of the complication uninteresting complication that I can comes up is when you say okay we can each have our own individual definition of what family means what do we do then when we're confronted with the outside world and what do we do when we want somebody some institution some government agency to recognize our family what's the definition there a very hard question to approach because there a lot of ways to approach it from and I actually try to approach it in both in these different ways but you could approach it from well what are the things that you would want based on a family membership and then what kind of definition would you offer to the institution in question or the agency in question for who they should consider family and who they shouldn't visit her family is this that say you know if I'm in a situation of what Hospital visitation should be anybody who presents himself to the hospital and says that he or she is a family member or should what we know what's the definition of the hospitals going to use a example to start with the why don't we actually jump from there and end the background story I'll give to it is that I don't know if I can recall his came up in the morning Channel but how many people here are familiar with the situation of Sharon Kowalski and Karen Thompson it said as you know I mean if somebody wanted to describe their situation she able to spell things out at this point although it's last year car dealerships age difference for a perspective so here we have the situation is exactly as you described it where Karen and Sharon Olga home together they had exchanged Rings they were both quite closeted so then you know what you know one typical definition of lesbian or gay couple is going to be cold yourself out as a couple to the community and it would be hard to say that they did that certainly some of their friends knew they were together as a couple but many people did not so Karen goes to the hospital after finding out the chair and spend in this terrible accident and can't they won't eat the hospital and tell her what's going on I said the question is for us you know what should the hospital require you know of somebody who shows up and says I want to see this person this is a family member of mine you know the parents were presumptively in and were granted custody in the outcome of the case was eventually make 7 years later of Minnesota appeals court said the helmet they were a quote family of affinity but it took 7 years for that to happen and in those during those seven years Karen had a tremendous struggle and very little contact with her partner Sharon boss while sharing with kept in a nursing home which was not at all where it where Karen thought she should be in terms of getting out of Rehabilitation will see that she is just really didn't actually find Affinity mncourts when they look at this you know if there are sympathetic to a broader definition of family then a spousal spousal relationship will just come up with the term life family of affinity or functional family occasionally there are definition of it actually wasn't much of one in that case they had lived together for a long time they clearly weren't that Partners a question for us is how how should the cord to find that what should a court do at me the coordinates of standard what what no if you were the hospital right and this and you have this problem situation is presented to you you're the hospital administrator you have the parents on the one hand and you have this unknown person on the other hand what do you want to know and you and you will allow family members to see a person who has become disabled and harm and you will allow somehow figure out the family member is the person who gets to make us Healthcare care decisions what do you want to know maybe we've raised a number of different definitions of what we all think family is who you know keeping those in mind you know if you're the administrator what are you going to do what he what is it that you need to know to go to the hospital we are always like I can my friend come and see I always wondered why they don't just ask people who are in the hospital tell them we can come and see them is it necessarily is it automatically your family should be allowed in what it's going to want what Christianity don't want early steps Loyola Hospital same problem resuming at that at the hospital you know has traditionally thought that like it like you point out that only family members get to come and then you know and all family members have a right to come including the ones that the patient might not want to see except that if the patient says I don't want to see that person Hospital skin early respect their wishes but but did that snow outside of the narrow confines of that definition people everybody else is stuck somehow either finding a sympathetic administrator or proving it somehow you know that they fit within this definition of situation with the patient actually can't express his or her wishes which was the situation in the in this chair and quality Karen Thompson let me watch me one way to do it where you know people could have drawn up documents in advance saying this is the person who I want to come visit me in the hospital I mean that's one way that we get can get around these problems for here's the document that shows that this person is the executor of my will and then destroy this person is the beneficiary of my you know if if I was faced with the situation and I ever going to hear all my documents showing that my partner says I'm the beneficiary for life insurance timer on the whatever I kiss you know you know where you come in and say look here all of the pictures of us together as a family but I mean seriously I require how is the hospital supposed to know that this person who shows up and says I want to see this Memphis person who I consider a member of my family should get to come in person portable probably okay since your beard like no family in the family thing right now in medical situations only the family. Probably invited you really feel they just lie to me it seems really ain't you I think I need a little bit of both I mean certain ways traditional you know I'm in a lot of traditions are put into policies on question but question I guess there are two levels of it I mean sometimes the hospital's will let in anybody who are patient consents to to have come in but in situations were persons persons in emergency care and they're unable to give that consent the hospital want some way of restricting who can come in so that you don't have a parade of people who don't know the Personnel other situations or whoever wants to come in or whoever the family member authorizes to come in can come into that's one situation but the other situation is if a person doesn't have what's called the living will which designate somebody to make Healthcare decisions for the person one if he or she is unable then is the family member traditionally who is yuno a title to Mancos Health Care decisions so the person needs an operation somebody has to consent to the operation who can give that consent you know what I mean what are you this is a real situation what are you do you have you know somebody who comes in and says look I've got the Cure the keys to our joint apartment but here's all my pictures of us together here's an end let me tell you further that this you know the patient hasn't talked to her biological parents in 10 years and then you have the biological parent saying this is our child we get to make the decision how many sexual it's tradition that's been codified into law but what it is is typically the parents have the right but if the person is married but my spouse has that right wouldn't that's true but what if the adult person can't consent I mean that's the problem we've got here where did you know what do you do you're that you know you're sitting behind your desk the doctor comes into with this problem we know we need to do this operation we have two different people telling us that they have the right to do to make the decision to hear herbalism up let's forget about the law for second what's my favorite thing to do believe me so we have to do all the time you doing was being a gay cases to be asking all speakers harder let's say that you know there's no sign of person is totally totally physically non-communicative so that's what I mean that's actually true but what's what's like forget those hat all right sweetie okay then let's follow that through for second say you know biological parents come in no reaction or there's a negative reaction say a person who claims to be lover comes in no reaction negative reaction say candy striper comes in he knows what then what happens what I mean I don't care but you have to make some kind of how what's your basis for making setting up some sort of US Standard that that allows you to make a decision I mean I don't want to belabor this issue but we haven't really come up with anything so what do you mean what's the policy and you guys are resisting the type of data, what what kind of policy do you have in place that tells you if it is the overarching policy of the hospital is that it should be a family member and not a candy striper for the person doesn't know making the decision about a person's Medical Care the person who can't communicate Medical Care who doesn't have a living will so you don't you don't know you don't know what you do have are different people claiming to be Family Edition people claiming that they should have the right to make this decision one person you know you got us a the biological father and you have the person who claims to be the partner leaving aside a situation that it's like what you're living in will you have 20 people who come in and say look we're all as much family as the parents are you know what you could I mean clearly we're just going to it's almost an easier case if we talked about one partner and and one or two parents when you start talking about multiple partners are friends and parents and siblings and others what what what are the factors that you'd want to know what would you want to know to make that decision evidence of joint bank accounts cohabitation and a sworn statement sergia. I mean I can't make any kind of if you look at any time people are asking I mean obviously there's a need for this week but if you have any time to go. she was sitting what do we want to do Jackie Carly Simon I immediately joint bank accounts with most people I think most gay how to use joint bank accounts because it we've learned the dead suck that's in identify who sing by the chords to act like 10 landlords when you return start me a list if you haven't you haven't been dealing with institutions it's probably but you still need to talk about the medical Scituate I thought that one institution to another institution so you have to call in for I think it's kind of like Explorer some of it Trinity you know and that's not picking up on that I mean that's one thing a hospital administrator to say right is we will give anybody who claims to be family here the opportunity to prove that through whatever means you have available to you and then you know we'll just Shuffle it out you know on the one hand we know that do we know who the parents are because of the birth certificate or whatever kind of documentation we have but on the other you know we're willing to take a look it's still very difficult I would suggest for the hospital then to say if they get you know if we each think of what would we present I mean it might be joint bank accounts in one situation it might be both names on the lease but if people don't own property together in some way or what you have together is a dog or a cat usually isn't license to two people you know then then it becomes much harder than you see what what do you look at you knowing how what are the what are the things that the hospital should look at understand you know what it is it's very mention earlier that I teach a law school class and wanted to see what we were talking about these kinds of situations one of the issues that came up as oh okay you know on the one hand let's say the hospital is willing to accept a partner not to Partners at 3 Partners but a partner as the decision maker how do you distinguish a partner from a roommate you know a long-term roommate or a person who somebody shares their life with but they don't have theirs if there's no sexual relationship there's no presumption of a sexual relationship should that make a difference to the hospital you know but but these two people or multiple people consider themselves family to each other you know they have two cats together they own a desk together you know that they what they have a hip joint household budget you know they love each other money without any say so by anybody else you know most of the time we're in the position to name a decision maker it's only one Bebe we become incapacitated that we're not in the position to name the decision maker for us but even so sometimes we need decision-makers and they're still not recognized right I mean I'm sure people are familiar with examples like that but what's interesting is that you know as we've been talking about this we still have not if if I was a hospital administrator coming to this group for a consultation and saying okay you know help me out here this is the situation what how am I how am I supposed to decide who gets to do this who gets to make the decision I mean Frank Netflix if that were considered to be people think about it and then throw you guys will just a word nationalized health-care then part of that could be know some register yourself and what you mean and also with that one so that instead of deciding if there's one person as one people control my whole life and I can't do it but I don't really see if everyone let me know if you're under like what you're making is actually gets us back to the big question of what's the purpose of family you known as you just pointed out the purpose may be something very different in different situations if we assume for the moment that it's okay to say that family will use family as well assume that whoever is family in this situation can be the decision maker to use systems kind of interchangeably and who gets to be the decision-maker varies depending on what the question is and if you know where I live we can you know for certain alive and can speak and can answer the question that makes it a lot easier and then what you're saying is that then that should be recognized as the person's will does anybody disagree with that Prince here and say yes how to say I'm listening Haystack which is exactly what the court did in the Brushy case it was talked about this morning where the court said okay here were two men who had a long-term relationship together in a rent that kisses controller stabilized but at any rate I think it was cuz rent a rent controlled apartment which is obviously in New York City a very valuable commodity and family members get to stay when another family member dies how do we know that this person was a family member and not just a short-term roommate or not just a roommate at all which for some reason roommates aren't allowed to remain even though family members are and it's not a rush of sex then again why why shouldn't I I really like what why what was actually in a relationship sexual I mean so we get into this problem but then we you know I wanted the reasons obviously that those issues you know that's that stuff even matters is because course better looking at family as you know the owner that that family owns the power to make decisions about this person if the person can't make decisions about him or herself of Courts have to have said and legislators have to have some way to narrow that group of people potential that potentially very large group of people down right I mean there are a large group of people you know whether you live in a household with 25 people or you have 30 very close friends or you have nobody who you would consider you their clothes by friend or somebody who you'd want to make decisions about you the legislators trying to come up with some set of rules that will generally govern who can make decisions about somebody else they call it family I think probably just too narrow things down and then again they insert the presumption that you probably own things together once you get above a certain age you probably at least at one time were in a sexual relationship but would you know what's interesting there is because I was thinking we could go through a series of hypothetical to try to decide at what point but let's say my train of thought here let's say you know we're going to assume that people don't have to be married to be family but you know a person can be a decision maker for somebody else but at what point is that kick in at what point do we trigger decision-making power at what point is it taken away so say you know what just to make this very easy Jane meets Barbara okay they start to date you know at what point should they be considered family for purposes of say should there be any limit to where you can put down at work should you have to have known a person for a certain amount of time before you can give them your health care proxy Richard should get Tatum sorry should Jane have to know Barbara for 6 months before she gives her the health care proxy or J&B socialize okay so whatever she may need someone and I have that purse over she hasn't she doesn't me I think that some of us would prefer an individual who is stranger official new legal next of kin court or legislators hierarchy what we're struggling with receipt I mean I think it's this are ducks please but that's what actually makes these conversations so interesting because for so long lesbian families have not been considered part of the economic legal bass hierarchy that we race these questions before studies questions about what kind of family should be recognized or what with it appropriate definitions being different context way you make syrup have okay we are going in value that relationship wait a minute I'm family too but not in and I think weather set what a family understand okay that same color but if youwhen we think that we're complying with the code or we try to comply with the code and we think we have come up with all of the in dishes at also describe a traditional married relationship like you know it was especially the kind of economic industry which of tradition living use like the joint bank account even like Co ownership of property like ownership of like jointly parenting children then suddenly you know the tables turn like you pointed out what is MN wheat we didn't have all the ignition but we're still not a family you know where the courts don't want to recognize this that where the legislature doesn't want to recognize that when it comes up with some new way of defining family you know I mean one obvious example is the Defense of Marriage Act which Congress just passed and couldn't just sign which suddenly says that you can even be legally married as a gay couple let me talk about the most conservative traditional type of relationshipignition and we're still not going to recognize your marriage so it's it's it's you know what we're dealing with this very complicated mix right of how we know what we how do we pursue recognition of our families given the broad definitions that we all hold to to recognition of our real families in at the same time how do we have a realistic chance of making it happen when there is this very deeply rooted way or code of understanding who fits in and who doesn't is there really any possibility broadening that out you're one one when I suspected Jane and barber for a second OKC chain gives Barber her health care proxy after they've been dating for a week but set and then you don't need any date for month date for a few months Barber moves in you know and they become lovers but it's just a bit dated they become lovers and they and they've dated for a month and Barbara moves into a chain and bar for now live together in the apartment that chain owns a month later they break up now if Jean and Barbara had gotten married after a month a month later if they broke up they'd have to go to court there would have to be a division of property as it is you know as we all know if Kane and Barbara break up after a month now under our legal system is it is you know the presumably Barbers going to move out hopefully for Jane and that Barbara won't take all of us to be modified for New York City Furniture when she moves and not take the dog that Jane has had for 10 years but Barbers become very attached to the dog and she really likes the furniture at what point does she have a claim on property at what point do we want a court to consider them family enough that suddenly they have I mean should family at you know attached any rights to ownership and if it does what it is attached don't say you don't even have to get you in that situation in that situation and Jane and Barbara have come to you and James has look you know I've loved you forever if I gave it to him my health care proxy it's true and I invite she moved into my apartment I wanted that but it's only been 4 weeks and I want her out and I don't want her taking my stuff and Barbara says she gave me this weighty responsibility of her health care proxy she invited me to move in with her you know I left my other apartment now. God knows where I'm going to live and I don't have any furniture I want it I want half the stuff here what are again talking about forming maintaining and dissolving lesbian families what do you do as the mediator what's but we don't know how to maintain unless we figure out about Giselle what's your parameter of what are the rights that come when does this become labeled family and what are the rights that come along with that I wish they do it after this money in there. whatever you came in to go out but she gave her how to go to medical school there's also had the weighty responsibilities of being a person's health care decision maker for a month and she didn't have to exercise it but that was her responsibility she had the health care proxy for Barbara Health Care proxy for Jaden picture of Jim gave it to her Barber accepted it what's just supposed to say really I mean even though you leaving aside what the law is which generally does give spouse has a right to to divide property unless they have some agreement before the marriage of sooner prenuptial agreement agreeing to it separate division of property what should the mediator say what would guide you would this with these two would Jane and Barbara be a family and if so what rights come along with being a family do any come along with them do any come along with this four-week-old being a member of a 4 week old family assume that there is some kind of trust me doubt that you can hate each other so much with you social media what is the common sense that's going to guide you here it's not just one, but there were legal marriage and it was in I mean for 4 weeks or Hello Kitty exactly adjudge Prince Royce state you live in and it depends on the judge but really I mean did property be cut in Most states the property becomes jointly-owned you know unless there are things that are excluded for one reason or another and then there are there can be those things even without a prenuptial agreement but then in those cases it may certainly What's called the equities but really it is what seems fair to a judge will help determine whether you know what really should come out of this but whether it's four weeks or 40 years the responsibilities and the commitment that the legal obligations are there and so what part of what I'm I'm raising here is you know at what point you know do obligations kick in our do people have more responsibilities to each other regardless of what their relationship is called in the law do you have more responsibilities to each other at 40 years than you do it for weeks at what point do the you know how did the responsibilities kick in and how would we set up a standard for judging that let me see that's one big point it's obviously it Barber said every 15 who is kick Barbara out of her apartment houses I don't care that you lost your apartment and I don't even care that you gave away all your furniture because I promised you could live with me forever your ad of here and Barbara had no legal right I mean she can't I mean I guess theoretically she could bring some sort of a breach-of-contract claim that she wouldn't win but but she really has very few are no legal rights in that situation where it's a spouse legally recognized Scots would have rights in that kind of situation but you know part of the question is what should your leaving aside what the law actually says what should the rights and responsibilities be where does our definition of family kick in and do we assume that once you become family whatever that is that you have taken on rights and responsibilities that even when you no longer want to be family with this other person you still have some sort of responsibility to him or her or them marriage you don't enter. relationship Luxury Apartments Christian music that's why you know even leaving aside marriage when we raised the question for ourselves of how do we form families what does it mean to us to form a family and why should that be important at all and when do we expect to have that recognized by some outside person or a note to an outside agency institution what is in a what kind of definition do we want that agency or institution to have to decide this family should be recognized in that family shouldn't or do we want these agencies in institutions to say okay anything you come to us with you tell us it's a family will accept that and then estate agency does do that and then you say okay and now our family whatever it is is breaking up and we want help in dividing up whatever we've acquired together or even if not a car but we've to live together or we've maintained some kind of either one of us feels injured or damaged by the fact that our relationship is broken up you are Corridor mediator I want you to get something for me from this other person because he or she screwed me you know he or she treated me unfairly here she took something away from me or we have a dog together you know I mean we think of didn't turn up a traditional terms of property we have a CD collection together we have we bought some books together I mean inevitable in the course of most relationships cheer she gave me very expensive gift I want it back so there's three they're just these very thorny questions of you know what what are we doing in cases litigated over somebody gave someone else and engagement ring and then they broke and one rather the other person wanted it back so I gave you this in exchange for promising to marry me and now you're pushing the questions at least to encourage everybody to just think about okay if I was going to get find my ideal family what would I do we make any difference to you or anyone else if I do that at 4 weeks I don't have too much sauce but I would probably ask Jane turn down my idevices. You should give her his heart and spider sting I tried to do something to get her back to where she was to make her whole to where she was before but not necessarily sent but now they have shared branching me I would have three emotional reasons we maybe not back one piece of different sense if they had become domestic partners because you're waiting. Let's Pretend there wasn't one or had they had a commitment ceremony that would make sense for me to making a fish tank real silver not for him. For a month and still in Mumbai today. What would make what what would help me is if all lesbian and gay people signed agreements at the first day of their relationship that they will not go to the courts for justice take to find Justice there we will not seek it we will seek mediation amongst our own or something like that where we know that that's not where we're going to go because those laws those things do not apply to us if we've been together for 25 years in a brace to children I need is to develop is as a community a real set of principles that have to do with Justice and fairness and all kinds of nice evenings yes I know you would feel well data commitment ceremony I would honor that relationship more and I might feel like what do they need a commitment ceremony for or even if they had one standards but if we were compelled by The Wider Community to work those standards out together and have to go at it and figure it out rather than look to a legal system that in no way can be just to us when not in no way but ultimately cannot be just to us the kind of standards that you're asking us to the community to identify does my instinct it's like only my personal biases anyone else think that that's an additional Factor notes getting help relieve this pain is Jimmy just read something fear about this question because there are a couple of different threads going through here in one is the point that you're making that if we go to the legal system and say we've had a commitment ceremony and exchange a healthcare proxy courts are probably going to say it you know we don't really care so there's the idea of let's just assume of okay we're going to go to a mediator you know who understands the issues what it means to be you know in a Lesbian Family however we Define it here but that that is something that's outside of the legal system still the mediator in adopting whatever principles or the community and in trying to set on a set of Jeopardy no fair principles the quest in your raising is say we have this for weak relationship what are the factors that the mediator should take into consideration should the mediator shoot it make a difference to the mediator if the people had a commitment ceremony if the people you know Heather Health Care proxy border the factors that a mediator might take into consideration even if you had if they signed up as domestic partners with the city if you've had a 4-week relationship are there different things that one that the family should do or could do that would trigger a different level of responsibility to two partners with pussy you each had comments all community so there are a lot of layers of complication here because one of them is you know the system that imperious set up to deal with these issues doesn't deal with them responsibly carefully fairly or well for people who fall outside of that sits in which are frequently women generally people color generally lesbians and gay men in particular but also when we talked about okay what we want a set of principles adopted by mediators which we still don't have them figured out but what's that mean even if we could who were the mediator speed that would be applying those principles should they ship depending on the family unit that goes that that raises the conflict but also should the principal shift depending on who the family is who constitutes family have all the people are weird National Origins of the of the individuals in Scituate how many people there are if there's an age difference in the couple I mean there's no sort of an endless array of how many people are in a couple of minutes and we'll 3 but then the question there is safety going back to Jane and Barbara you know and the situation that you presented babe have a commitment ceremony one of them feels like that didn't create any responsibilities the other one feels like that created every responsibility and so each person this is really trying to negotiate with the other but they come at it from such different places that ideal you could go to us a mediator and say well here's where you might wind up in the middle of eating that is a very difficult situation in life is just too complicated Dairy Queen buried but I am every now and then I'm walking on level ground in it and I break my name I am now even if the bill has been passed and I can actually get him still prejudices always Mary you gave her that you forget there are those holes in the ground I think that The Eliminator III swimming I think we're supposed to end this Workshop now if I know the time incorrectly I think it is so let me just raise a couple of of points are the following up on what we've been saying I mean clearly legal marriage is one way of getting that immediate full kind of recognition and fitting into into the code this is just talking about and also having it so that even if you fall into those holes and you do break your ankle so to speak and you don't even the familial recognition you don't you also can go to court and say okay you know we don't even need that sort if we don't need all of these principles we've been trying to craft here we don't need to go to the mediator sweetie because we've got the courts to turn to obviously there are still the problems with the cord say very deep-rooted multi-level complex prejudices that most judges hold but all sorts of people so there's that issue but that is that's one way of dealing with the situation what one is it the counter issues I guess is for people who don't want the full trappings but want some you know where you want the agreement you know you want the health care decision-making but you don't want the joint property ownership then what do you do what do you do if you want pieces of those are not pieces of those are the point that you made earlier about what does he want one person to get your dog and you want somebody else to make your Healthcare decisions and you want someone else to get your house if you have one and somebody else to get all your books and and someone else to get your CDs there are ways of dealing with that in those are some of the many things that people who have chosen not to her have been barred from getting married have done like through Wheels like through Powers of Attorney like through health care proxies giving different people legal documents if I give you my decision making power about my finances are my my health or my whatever and in my will I'll say you get this and you get that and you get that to another is dividing up the kinds of responsibility that you'd want to share out based on your family membership so there's that whole set of issues but then you know and then when we get back to where we started the kind of emergency situation where a person can't speak for herself or himself is there any way other than legal marriage for us to offer to agencies you have to make the decision about who to recognize his family or what you know what kind of criteria do we want to offer or do we think that they should be accepting of What kinds of criteria do we want to be suggesting because truly the only way that this criteria are going to change if we push them to change and Rin through crisis situations like that without dad on one situation at 2. Let me just mention to sort of complicated twists on these two more complicated to a selling situation at 1 that I'm dealing with right now actually in my office trying to figure out what to do where a lesbian couple who have been together for over 10 years one of the partners died had a wheel instructed in the will that her partner was to be the executor was to take care of burial arrangements and everything partner wants to put up a tombstone saying so and so beloved partner daughter friend and whatever and the parents had said absolutely not you're not putting beloved partner on this Tombstone and the cemetery has said we're not going to decide between the parents and the lover and in the cemetery actually suggest but one of the parents put up the tombstone in the cemetery in the lover puts up a memorial in California where she lives and you know and so somebody is going to have to tell the cemetery or not tell the cemetery what it should do in this kind of situation and without sitting in if if the couple had been married legally of course one would think a legal executor would do that but because because there were not written instructions as to what was supposed to be on the tombstone from the deceased woman at the cemetery has said you know we don't know that you're following the deceased instructions and we don't know what to do so you know when we think about these conflicts and they're not just in the situations of the emergency medical situation these are real life things that come up all the time. Hopefully not and we really need to to think about us were thinking about how to craft a definition of family how to how to craft a definition of who should be recognized as having decision-making power how do we do that how do we want to instruct other people to do that and even if we choose to to develop our own documents to try to acquire these powers to it to other people what do we exactly need to say an end your real Emmitt it if we don't say every single word we're going to do and actually rather than going into more examples are pretty much over time I'll just thank you all very much for the discussion I I found it very interesting I hope you all do too if the person you would had it for 10 years no question