Unknown Speaker 00:01 I teach sociology to come to university here. My My first book was on policies for working women in Britain and Sweden, which we've developed here. Although I just finished a book on health care policy in the US, Britain and Canada, that issue that we get that that as well. And Unknown Speaker 00:24 I'm largely triggered, and I teach history here at Florida. I teach a course on the family and the welfare state. And I guess that's one reason I'm here. Most reasons, they also put out a volume, edit the bond in Swedish, however, wishes on the current debate, they are over civil society versus the public sector, which sparked the debate far from the US. Unknown Speaker 00:52 Well, welcome to the session on Europe. I was delighted that there was a question about the other country. So this morning, and I managed to get that perfect, quick answer, which I'll incorporate later on as we talk. But what Lars and I thought we would do is that, I'll start and just give you a few remarks, very general overview remarks about what the situation is like, in, in Europe, with regard to panel policy, and then boss will take up a little bit more detail about the countries and issue areas that that he knows about. First, I want to start with the idea that most of the European countries that we are interested in is certainly the ones that Lars and I know most about are what is called social democratic welfare states. And that's to be distinguished from what the United States is in Britain. And that is a liberal, democratic welfare state. We're all welfare states, there's no known welfare state, in a sense anymore, in this set of countries called the advanced industrial society. But the big difference is that in the European Social Democracy, two things are going on. First of all, as we know, those governments then a lot more on social programs. And what that means is that those governments also are very active and proactive in social programs, and in their intervention in the economy in general. But the other point that is closely related, especially with that latter point, is that organized labor is very important in the development of social policies in the European social democracy. So both of those points are to be distinguished from what we thought in the United States, I think they go a far way in explaining why it is that Europe has been able to develop the kinds of policies that they have. If we're focusing then just on family policies, you know, what, what I want to be able to say, is that there isn't a separate little category called Family Policy or welfare policy. And I will say, to the same extent as there is in the United States, in Europe, Family Policy is very much embedded in a whole nexus of other policies. And they include on the one hand policy that have to do with education, and housing and health care. But, as importantly, sometimes I think, more importantly, on the other hand, family policies have to do with policies that are connected with work and work with interests. And that includes income and income supplementation, and other kinds of policies that have to do with work. So that's the the main framework within which I'll be focusing some of my remarks. And as I say, I think that these ideas go a long way in explaining the question that was raised this morning in the sense, why did that they could do it, and we can't, and also what it is, that's for them as well, let me just start with a few facts. First of all, with the idea of women and work, the latest OECD figures that I've been able to find do do show that as far as work goes, the US is not that different from Europe. We have a lot of women working, as does Europe. The macro figures show that if you look at just women aged 15 to 64 years of age, about 70% of these women work in the United States, about 74% in Sweden, or New Sweden never went well, but they were at the top of all of these figures. And if you look at the rates for mothers with children under 18, but 67 Saturday's women's work in the United States and about 90%. Unknown Speaker 05:05 I'm not going to say too much about women's women's work with regard to things like anti discrimination legislation, and so on. But one area of women's work that I think is important for family policy is the area of equal pay for equal work, so called, we all still generally use that phrase. But the fact is that in Sweden, and other European countries, especially now other European countries take it more seriously because of what's happening with the European Union. The idea of if I can say comparable words, have gone much further, you know, the figures are not as revealing the latest ones that I've been able to get I noticed revealing as I'd like to be able to, to show, it's just that in order to get these proper figures, you'd have to do a lot of detail analysis. But the figures do show that in the US Women's pay, this is a full time pay for working women, as a proportion of men's, it is now at about 74%. But in most of the European countries, it's well over 80%. And this goes a long way and saying something about what income means for the work in the European countries. And obviously, this is a policy area that labor, organized labor has been very involved in developing something else about women and work that I think is important. And the difference between Europe and the United States is this idea of part time work. There are many more women in Europe than in the United States that were part time. When we say part time work. What we generally mean is women who work under 35 hours a week. But nevertheless, they haven't counted as part time. But again, this is this is going to be a policy is particularly focused on family probably are related to family policy, because it is mothers with children and young children, particularly that are going to work part time. Here is one policy area. And I'll try to note a few more. Where there is as much debate in Europe, as there is in the United States about all the implications of working part time, you know, the idea that what does it mean for gender roles? What does it mean for women's ties to the labor market, and so on? Yeah, I want to say these things whenever I can. Because you know, when we in the United States, look at Europe, we tend to put on these rosy glasses to relieve our tired eyes. And sometimes it's justified in doing so you're trying to hurt with what we see here. But at the same time, it's not always warranted. There are debates on this traditionalism in Europe, you know, just as there is here. But this is one area of part time work, where there is a touchy that's going on as to what the meaning is with regard to feminist values. But there are two policies that are important and that support current time work in Europe. One is parental leave. And the other is labor protection legislation. In Europe, as I said that the right to work part time is considered to be part of family policy. And and to support that parents do have very generous leave policies, no matter who the employer is big difference with us that these are national policies, they are not related to who your employer is. Unknown Speaker 09:03 And the primary caretaker can take quite a bit of time off work. It varies as to whether or not some one year in some countries have three years in other countries. In some countries, there is the possibility for taking time, six months at the beginning and then using the rest of your your right over the course of several years as the child grows out. These are variations that are very interesting and important. And the other side of this parental leave is the fact that that there is in most countries approximately 80% of the income is guaranteed. But actually it's not in most countries in only a few countries about 80% of the income is guaranteed and in most countries there is a flat minimum allowance that that is given But But parents aren't going to lose a whole lot out there at the income as they do the United States that they take part time but but I think more importantly is that parents in Europe know that they are going to get their jobs. That is that income, I saw that employment security, that is very important when it comes to parental leave. However, another problem with part time and parental leave part time work and parental leave in Europe is that as in the United States, it is taken mostly by women. Sweden is the outlier in this regard. And the other times we wanted to talk about Sweden, because so much is going on there. But it is unusual in a lot of policy areas. It is the case that in Sweden, about 25 Min. Now take parental leave, but for short periods of time, for the most part, but you know, nevertheless, something is happening there. This is one issue area that it will be interesting to watch as time goes on, because there there there's a lot of contention about it, but parentally that part time work. One contention that I mentioned, it's with regard to the European Union, which is forming a social contract for Social Charter, rather for its member countries. And the idea is to try to standardize a number of the policy areas, we just simply don't know what's gonna be happening with a lot of these policy areas, and whether the standardization will be at sort of a lowest common denominator level. And whether countries like Sweden will be able to continue with what they do at a higher level or not. So that's parental leave, and the importance of a part time work. A lot of women in Europe do work part time and take advantage of another very important policy area that supports women's work, and that is very much a part of family policy in Europe is daycare for children. We probably know that most advanced countries are France and Sweden. In this regard, public provision exists in these countries. Most of the care is in public daycare centers. But I think it's fascinating that both of these countries have developed very good home care programs as well. And they develop these by employing women who work in their own homes. But these women are under public regulations. And they're paid by the government. And therefore, they are eligible for all the government benefits. With regard to time off and part time work, and all the rest of of the rights that workers have. Unknown Speaker 13:17 Most of the countries do have primarily public care, but I do want to mention something else about these developments in in Europe with public and private sectors are going to get in where we see it, I think in in, in daycare, more than in some other areas where the Government encourages the private sector to be a provider in this area, and encourages that by giving various kinds of subsidies to parents, or tax credits to parents so that they can use public authority private facility, so that the facilities aren't necessarily only in the public sector, but the public sector is involved in supporting the private sector. And of course, their tax credits and so on are going to be much more than we have in the United States. Well, these are features and more of what family policy is in Europe. And again, it's family policy that supports women. women's work, I think take on very special significance. In the in the in the case of an issue area that was focused on this morning. You guys both called welfare policy, but in particular policies that have to do with single mothers who for the most part are poor. I'd like to suggest that issue area welfare as No, it doesn't exist in Europe. It it there are a couple of countries that are exceptions. Britain is an exception. Um, too much of what I'm actually seeing today is much more like United States than it then bivalent to Ben's work and, and it's relatively little benefit rates with regard to welfare. There's one other kind of exception, I think it's important, Americans always focus on this other kind of exception countries like the Netherlands, where there is a great deal of criticism, because income support in the Netherlands is considered by some to be too generous, and too easy to get. So that what tends to happen is that young people are supported by the government. And these tend to be young people who choose not to work, or work in what we might call unproductive jobs, such as in the arts. And this is a problem becoming more of a problem in countries like the Netherlands. But I think that those are exceptions to the overall picture of what we call welfare is like, in in the European countries, most policies for poor, single women in Europe, to be distinguished from policy in the United States and the public characteristics in particular, where the United States tend to identify a group of persons who have special problems. And we isolate what happens with this group from other developments, either other developments that have to do with women's work, or other developments that have to do the social policy. That is precisely not the case in Europe. In the European countries, these policies for for single women are integrated into the whole gamut of other kinds of policies, on the one hand, policies that are for low income families, period, General, on the one hand, and policies that have to do with working women, on the other hand, just say a little bit about the first, the integration of policies for poor single women into policies for low income families, is usually achieved through universal kinds of programs that have to do with child allowances, for example. Unknown Speaker 17:41 And every, every country in Europe does have a universal program of child allowances. And within this universal program, there will be some supplements for low income parents. And then within that supplement, there is a another supplement additional supplement for single women, for the most part, a female parent. What I want to emphasize about this is that the universal framework is what makes for a normalization, if you will, any of the particular categories. And again, that the distinction is that we identify that group, we put them outside of the big policy area, and we get we have special selective measures for that group of women. Now, we say we call this targeting. The problem is that targeting becomes isolation separation. Targeting really only works well for fine tuning, when you've got this bigger set of programs and you can fine tune. We don't We can't find too, because we don't have the bigger set of programs and policy. We don't spend enough either. So we can't find what we ended up doing is segregating these programs and recipients. But in Europe, the whole situation is much more normalized. And because of the I'll just add a little negative note. There are some especially now with the economic strains in many of the European countries. There are some policymakers that would like to work at that on these child allowances. Because they do tend to be regressive in that the same amount is given to wealthy families as to that at approach that is costly, but they are they are considered to be an entitlement by most people, and I'm not sure that they are going to be touched but that's another issue. That will be important to watch here. Zero tries to come to terms with economic constraints? Well, probably the most important feature of both anti poverty and family policies in your, for me is their close and systematically with employment policies. There are a few countries in Europe, Germany is one Germany has very strong paternalist value that the North will say more about this. There are a few countries in Europe, in which women are given the choice of to work or not, as we do with them had done for a long time with AFDC in the United States. But for the most part, this is not a choice. But just as you know, I said before, that there is sort of a universal framework so that everybody does the same thing. This occurs with regard to the area of work as well, it is, it is assumed that women are going to work and poor women are going to work just like middle class, women were single mothers are going to work just as married mothers are going to work. It is those countries that have a higher employment rates for that this kind of an assumption. Again, just to to make the contrast, remember I said at the beginning in the United States, we have high employment rates for women, too. But we don't make this assumption, to nearly an extent for single women on welfare. And it's either Well, first of all, they shouldn't work, or else now, they have to do. And it's this, this kind of separation, segregation of fate, that is so very different from the integrated framework within which columns are considered in in Europe. The fact of women working and poor women working and we're single women working in Europe, is facilitated by very active labor market policies. It isn't anything like what we've got in the United States, labor market policies aren't for everyone in most of the European countries, and they consist of the gamut of Unknown Speaker 22:36 programs such as public employment agencies, there are a lot of them, they're sort of on every, in every district, there's a public employment agency, where there is the jobs, skill matching going on counseling going on. But most importantly, very big programs for training and retraining for everybody. Again, I keep wanting to emphasize that it's for everybody. And then within that universal framework, selected measures or for single women, the importance of these activated market programs in most of the European countries really can't be overemphasized. And to the point where some of the European countries spend more on the active labor market programs than they do on unemployment insurance. Now, there's criticism because for some, some people consider these active labor market programs to be a form of unemployment insurance, but I think it's money better spent in some way and then the other. And, indeed, to do the job. Well, it is important to spend a lot of money on these kinds of programs. It's something we better keep in mind as we tried to develop a more work oriented welfare reform. Now it is on the other side of the coin. As you all know, unemployment has increased tremendously in Europe in these last several years, but we've noticed a couple of things. First of all, the unemployment rates for women are not any worse than they are for men. Understand that, especially in those countries where women's employment is there a couple of countries such as France and Italy, and actually Germany as well, where women's employment rates are relatively low. And it's in those countries where unemployment rates for women are higher. And that just you know, indicate if women are expected to work, they work and they become unemployed and the same way as men do. They're more integrated into the economy. But the other one I want to a note with regard to unemployment in in European countries. The European countries are looking at the United States to see what we're doing about unemployment to situation and our rates look wonderful compared to the European rates. And they, you know, sizing us up for market orientation, and so on. But I'm trying to keep track of this. And I have noticed that their sizing is out, but I'm not sure they're going to do it. There continues to be a lot of expenditure for labor market programs, active labor market programs in the European countries. And it is still considered that the best way of tackling unemployment is through these activities. But there's other things that need to come into the picture, that that really take this issue of family policy outside of another area. But I have to say how important it is. Somebody said this this morning, it's the economy stupid that family policy is all about. Europe has got to try to understand why it is that there is a cauldron of jobs and the changing nature of jobs. And But Europe is more able to think about industrial policies than us. So I feel a little bit more hopeful that that that they're going to they're going to see the bigger picture and be able to make the transition at the level of work. There are problems that are developing, to be sure. Some employers complain that they have been held back by the high cost of their cut their contributions to these various programs. And so the government's are reducing the cost to employers trying to increase employer flexibility, and so on. And we will see this kind of tapering. But I think the general sense of the importance of activating programs to retrain to keep people in tune with changes in the economy. Again, unlike in the United States, in the United States, we're the only country that's been spending less on labor market training programs in these last few years. Well, I, I find it very interesting that what with the way in which European countries spend money on these various programs, they spend a lot of money on the early stages of poverty, and dependence. And what tends to happen, if you take really impaired figures is that over time, your visit the European countries ever spent less on anti poverty programs, because people become independent of the state Unknown Speaker 28:02 a little differently. It takes a lot at the beginning, a lot of of expenditure. You have to think of this expenditure as an investment for the future, as the European countries do it the United States, the poverty rate before you even think about what happens with the government programs, the poverty rate is higher than in the European country. And then after you take into account the effect of these government programs, there is much more continued dependence in the United States than in Europe. So because of this heavy expenditure, the early stages of poverty in Europe, they will tackle both the problems of poverty, as well as continue to dependence on the welfare state. You know, I, I'll just close by thing, giving you this one figure that I just heard the other day. We have 21.5% of our children in the United States living in poverty. It's a decree used to pay over 25% Let's be happy, same time. We have now a decrease but nevertheless, our mortality rate is nine out of 1000 and wonderful decrease. But as far as the poverty rate goes, the next pious country is Canada at 13.5%. This is embarrassing for such a rich country, to have these figures. Just to put together some of these ideas, I just want to go back to whatever thing at the beginning. Why have you been able to deal with it has been because of of the collectivity of interests, that has been able to be developed by organized labor that has promoted family. Family Policy as a part of workers. AD, it's that kind of an emphasis on work and the economy, not on the separate things, differences, family values, and all that kind of stuff. As I said, you're this traditional family are promoted. On we know, a little longer than I should have, I apologize, that in turn to Unknown Speaker 30:48 get, but should we do? Should I do my notes, so that will open up? Unknown Speaker 30:53 Yeah, but we do that. And then we'll finish talking about questions, and we'll see Unknown Speaker 30:56 if maybe I can make up some time. And first of all, I just want to say, it's a real pleasure to do this with Mary, whose work has been, for me so many others a source of inspiration, or, you know, really good book on comparing England or Britain, I should say, and Sweden is one that I and many others also referred to constantly itself. And I will try to, in a way, sort of continue and place my discussion a little bit within what you've already heard, which which gives the kind of, you know, good broad overview, and I will live our talk, particularly about Sweden, or to reach a certain level of specificity is also of course, the case of Sweden has been these until, let's say, three or four years ago, held up as a model as a whole, you know, the literature on that. And we may sort of just start by, by noting, and I'll just read you some some observations from an American critic of the welfare state, which in a certain way also captures what what the Tusi asked would claim to be what is good about it on referring here to Matt to sociologist David Papineau, who is working not so far from the street, in the red squares, at least. But anyway, he, he wrote a book on family policy in general, he was, you know, comparing paneling policy in various countries, and it's called disturbing the nest, which already there, it gives you a sense of the direction that this analysis taking, anyway, referring to Sweden, a Swedish family, he knows that a waning social institution, the family has declined further in Sweden, than in any other western industrialized country. And this that he links specifically to welfare state policies, and he argues that, quote, as the welfare state advances, the family declines. And, you know, of course, he is coming very much from an American family values perspective. However, he makes an observation here, and I'll quote him again, which is, you know, in his view, of course, alarming, but unless correct, he says, Swedish family legislation is almost exclusively concerned with the situation of the individual family members. And indeed, it goes on the welfare state single minded pursuit of egalitarianism, amounts to nothing less than an implicit pact between the individual and the welfare bureaucracy that excludes the family unit. Now, this is a position. I mean, this is an observation which is, in fact, not at all being correct. And we want to take note that right, because there's really no disagreement at that level between someone like Papa No, the defenders of the welfare state. Rather, what we're talking about here is rather different views of what constitutes a good society not to use terminology that that we often use here in the US. And in fact, somewhere like we'll have yarn Berg, who is Swedish expert in family policy, policy has pointed out that it isn't a new kind of family ideology that has developed in Sweden, and how do we want to understand that? Well, it it really revolves around something that has little dramatically one might call the Swedish theory of love. By that I mean that in notion that the the primary organizing value needs to be that of autonomy, independence of the person that is there before you can start having any kind of healthy relationship, you have to be autonomous and autonomous that takes on rather Concrete Forms money, right. So that before you can have a healthy relationship within a family, then the individual family members first of all have to You independent of each other autonomous and each other. We're talking here about primarily the the husband and the wife. And we actually also, as it turns out, talking about children as they grow up. Now, this is a value which, which I would argue actually is very deeply rooted in Swedish culture, Scandinavian culture, I'm speaking about Sweden, primarily, a lot of what I'm saying really does apply also to Scandinavia. But for clarity, I'll just use the Swedish case. Unknown Speaker 35:30 The values of independence, autonomy, and are in that sense, not products of the welfare state of some, you know, service would argue that is to say, like popular is the result of sort of status policies, but they appear to be much more deeply rooted. A link to that is the egalitarian ism, which, which revolves around in all suspicion of privilege, Swedish democracy that says, so different from us democracy, and that is not based on a generalization of what used to be gentlemanly privileges, right, if you think about human rights are really an extension of the rights of the nobles, right? Whereas in this inner skinnymint case, you're really talking about universalization, of the of the local peasant colony, Right Action factors, so your suspicion of privilege, and difference, right? In the emphasis on consensus and relative homogeneity. And that, then these two together has meant that Swedish Family Policy and Social Policy in general, from the very beginning, emphasized. But as Mary was suggesting, universal types of benefits, there was a debate in 1930s, some of you are familiar with the new adults who were toying around, you know, with social engineering, right thought of, you know, the state should have a role in, in sort of ordering people around, but that never really materialized would materialize was a different type of social policy, which one one of the observes that time formulated along the lines that they decided to give the people cash and leave them alone. Right. And that then was linked to exactly what you were talking about it for the lack of any kind of attempt that ascertaining meet. So you don't have social workers running around, asking people, you know, do you have men in house to make you make so much money? Now, there, I want to introduce in distinction, which which we didn't come up in our, in the earlier discussion of marriage, maybe that is to say, the liberal versus social democratic, more or less, certainly one crucial difference, right. But within the rest of Europe, excluding England now, sort of part of the liberal Anglo American model, we have two really major models, and one is the social democratic one, Scandinavia. The other one, though, is what we perhaps would call the Christian Democratic model of continental Europe, and you're talking about, particularly Germany, France, but also much of the rest of Europe, Holland is not a very good case. So it's Italy, where the social contract does look rather different. That is to say, civil society plays a much greater role. And by that I refer to in concrete terms on the receiving end of family, right. And on the giving end, we're talking about a whole host of private organizations and companies like private insurance companies, right? A much more mixed economy, the state is facing the moral role of last resort, so guaranteeing right so the minimal amount of money, but the the family plays much more. I mean, they're very concrete examples of that you can look in there as like taxation, and Sweden. Now, there is no such thing as being taxed together as only individual taxation. Student loans, the same thing if you're married, you're a woman, you want to go back to work, I mean to school, there used to be that your your husband's income was taking into account you have this problem in us today, you have a husband that makes money then you can't get a loan from the government right you have to go talk to your husband about you know, husband may feel like this is not really important, right? Word for China. In in a Swedish case, the income of either the spouse on either side, more of the parents is not taken into account goes back to this notion, right. The Swedish theory of love that I was referring to earlier. That is different. Okay. If you look at Germany, for example, where family members are expected to fully right take responsibility for each other which includes, you know, financial catastrophes, if one of the family members goes into the bet the other family members have responsibilities, legal fiscal responsibility, and which which is not the case in his rather radical or system that you that you see in the skin area. Unknown Speaker 40:24 So I think this, in a way is a kind of a first principle of the Swedish welfare state is this notion of the primacy of personal autonomy. And it struck me this morning, when when I was listening to a PA adult break, talk about sort of the question of locating the family within this was, from a Swedish point of view, this would be complete, I mean, it wouldn't be very helpful to sort of try to decide on that there are many different types of families, right, because you're still stuck in the same problematic, rather, the radical solution will be to say, Forget about payments entirely. Right? and direct your attention to the individual. Right? Because if only individuals are engaged directly in the social contract, their questions like sexual preference, you know, race, gender, all of that is de facto taken care of. Right. And, and thus, you don't need to get engaged in a complicated form of politics of identity of the sort that we're perhaps all too familiar with. In the US. The critique of that, of course, you know, is the one in a way I was presenting from the beginning, right, the argument will be and Your Highness argument, also the left wing, the right is right, you know, that we have to promote community, we have to promote families, right. It's just that we don't want to promote a certain type of patriarchal family. But it gets tricky, right, and I tried to solve that level of policies is probably not the easiest thing to do. So if we look at the developers font family policy, then in Sweden, what we see is very much what what Mary was telling you before. That is to say that the way to understand Swedish family policies is thoroughly in the context of labor market policies. Right? That is to say, there wasn't a moment in the 1960s 70s, when there was a great need for labor, some of that demand was met by immigrant neighbor. But the major discovery was that of women power, right, as, you know, resource independence in the labor market itself. And in order to have women working, you have to have daycare, that's what you'll be finding out in the US now. The famous discussing program, for example, like what are they doing? They're, they're supposed to save money, right? They are spending incredible amounts because they discover if you want for women to work you got to deal with when they care right. Now, so what I want ugly under the guise of some kind of anti welfare thing, what they're ending up doing, Wisconsin is recreating the Swedish welfare state. No, which is a very interesting, curious paradox right? Now, they may not go on pay for that for very long. So that might be a passing pace. But it's interesting. So we see that what happens within social democracy in Sweden is that there is a sort of shift from being the party of the male working class towards really workers in general. And in fact, you see a shift of support. So a lot more women start to support social democracy, which is very much still the case today. And I irony of that is that although you all the figures are telling you that Swedish women are in an enviable position in terms of labor market participation, you know, income rates, and participation in politics on half the Swedish government is so as women right now, I know, half of the social democratic representation in the parliament is is women, and that goes many of the other parties as well. So this is pretty impressive. I'll get in the moment is something which is known as impressive, but it first irony is that this is not paradoxically the result of feminist politics rather, is reversed, right? Precisely because it was never turned into a feminist issue. It did not become controversial in the same way right? Because it was embedded within a much broader program right ultimately rooted in this primary value of autonomy independence and work right? And the your your your you have autonomy, but you have to work for it. I'm in a Swedish welfare state is very different from the Dutch one, it's very hard to get money for nothing, right? So the Swedes tend to be like American conservatives in that saying that, you know, you're not gonna get anything unless you produce and that means you do your work or you are in a training program. So so there's very, very little you know, up the kind of free money that you have more in Catholic models, right? So in that sense we discuss Swedish social democrats and American conservatives, you know, have something in common when it comes to this preoccupation with work as the only source of meaning in life. One, this is kind of the limitation of switch culture, I would argue as well, unless you like to work. Unknown Speaker 45:30 So where have we ended up with this in from the point of view of women? First in Sweden today, there is a there is on the one hand, clearly a situation where women have gained as one East German, a feminist once told me on the East German system was similar to the Swedish one that we got the money to throw the rascals out, right. So there was a crisis in American situation, right? You, you know, you could make that decision, because there was no longer the dependency on men. But at the same time, what all of statistics show is that women in Sweden, the Scandinavia at large, tend to work much more part time, they tend to work in the public sector, they're very poorly represented in the private sector, especially at higher levels. So what we see is an interesting difference between Swedish and non American feminism, that is to say, the Swedish feminism since its embedded in social democracy has served I would argue, poor middle class, lower middle class women very, very well, right. They women who would not be aspiring for the for jobs high up at any rate, okay. They have done very well by this morning. On the other hand, when you look at, for example, you look in the academic world, you will find as compared to us, it's astounding, there are virtually no women there. I mean, at the same thing in business, right? They are not there, right, in a part that has to do with the fact that this this social democratic policies are, you know, took the wind out of the sails of an autonomous type of feminism. So, so yeah, there's paradise there, which, which is where the Swedish women kind of double jeopardy right now, they say, they are overwhelmingly, on the one hand employed within the public sector, right? In the caring business, right? nurses, teachers, like traditional women's job, if you if I may say so. On the other hand, they are completely dependent on the public sector, for services, daycare, in particular, right, but also host of other related media, all kinds of money going to the families in various ways, right to help out with rent, and so forth. I mean, I can't go into all the details, but there's a whole battery of programs that that are related to this. And this, this vulnerability now is becoming apparent when you have high unemployment, which is a new thing is waiting until three, four years ago, there was effectively no unemployment. Now, there's 10% unemployment. in financial terms, this is a disaster. And the vulnerability works on both levels, you know, you may lose your job, right. But as you lose your job, that means that they're also less daycare, because then what's going on, you're cutting down in that sector. So you've got all kinds of potential problems where women are much more vulnerable than men, what evolved, working for what is a very vibrant part of the economy, which is to say, the export oriented private industry. Unknown Speaker 48:48 So that's one thing which, you know, we can get back to discussion. Finally, I want to say, though, more somebody more provocative note that what is happening in Scandinavia now is something very interesting that is to say that, to explain disparities in labor markets solely by reference to discrimination, glass ceilings, male dominance, and so forth, it's becoming much more difficult to make as an argument, because we're looking now at you know, 20 3040 years really are very, very sort of gender equal education, so forth and so on. And really, what it does is points with I would argue their uneven neglected area, which is women's power, right? And women's interest is to hold on to power in the domestic sphere, particularly, you know, their reluctance to share power in within the family setting itself. And the the unequal figures that he talked about when it comes to parental leave, for example, although men are taking on more and more, right, but they're doing this not in an easy way. There's actually a whole new interesting area of struggle, you know, gender of struggle going on here. And what we see As the evidence suggests, that is not just merely a matter of sort of men being unwilling to take part within the family in relation to kids, but there's also a great deal of unwillingness on the part of women to cede power right here and see a benefit, like the parental leave. At the same time, as they, that, of course, has consequences for their competitiveness in the economy at large. Right. So there's a relationship there, which I would argue cannot be explained just merely with, with by reference to, to, you know, through the traditional model, like looking at discrimination and so forth. And it is a is interesting new situation where men are certainly discovering that they right, for the first time, we're sort of dealing with, with a kind of another form of glass ceiling when men, because it's sweetened the divorce rates are like here extraordinarily high, right, partly because of this autonomy, which makes it easier. But so you have a lot of cases of what do you do with the kids, ostensibly, is all equal men have equal access, but in fact, the whole bureaucracy that controls the investigation, you know, is thoroughly dominated by my women. Right? Who are you? Because it's a public sector domain, right. And there is a kind of a default judgment in favor of women, when it comes to who gets the kids, right. And there is an emerging struggle there. And that kind of the basis for men's movement in Scandinavia, which is rather different from the men's movement here, which is this kind of, in my view, rather silly stuff about, you know, sort of Robert Bly kind of variety of finding your, you know, your masculinity wherever, here, we are talking about a much more concrete, like historical over, you know, the rights to children with the rights to parental leave. And it's an interesting incident where the model of state individual contract doesn't apply. Absolutely, because the parental leave is actually given to the spouses together in one middle provision that is that at least one month has to be taken by the parent that doesn't take the other, which effectively has been translated into a daddy month. Okay. So there, you know, I have a friend of mine, and it was known as the one man with with three kids, we wrote an article, which was very interesting to see the response. And obviously, that was just to speak Swedish daily, where we said, why don't we instead say that nine months, you know, the parental leave are for the for the Father, and nine months for the mother. Okay, and no discussion, that was all two problems, it will provide equality within the family. And we will stop this idea that women are unreliable, and please, right, so we serve the cause of gender equality, you know, in Lemoore, and it was dangerous and watch the response of many feminists because on one level, of course, they could really argue against that, right. But then on the other hand, they too, of course, ultimately fell into a kind of a mythology of, of female virtue of particular, you know, capacity on the part of women and so forth. Right. So it turned out to be a very touchy spot, for this reason. But it's an interesting sort of Buddy, Buddy new debate. I think it's going anywhere where we're, you know, it's hard to recognize that here, of course, but But I think, for those of you interested in these issues is an interesting point to kind of look at. So, and I think I will stop there. I mean, I have other things. But I mean, it would be nice, I think to have some some time for for questions and discussion. So I think I'll just shut up about the impact, great, Unknown Speaker 53:45 terrible problems with immigration. And that's one thing that affects our so called welfare policy here in the United States. What are Unknown Speaker 53:55 the rules spot immigration, the cracking down? More? So you know what, this is something I find interesting with in Sweden, in the early days, I think Swedish immigration policy was actually rather tight. And it was precisely for the reason of understanding that if immigrants come into the country at cetera, they will take up more public expenditure and so on. And, and Sweden decided to look for when there was a demand for labor decided to look more at the indigenous population and women to fulfill that demand. Of course, it was a demand that that Swedish was to feel better, because it was a demand for expansion in the public sector, and so on. And then Swedish policy, immigration policy did open up somewhat, but I think all over Europe. Now what we are seeing is the crackdown a lot more, as in the United States. And this is one area in which I don't think there's a whole lot of difference than what is going on in United States. Unknown Speaker 54:59 Very If we could just I mean, I think that there is a real interesting problem here also doesn't it's not just immigration from outside of Europe, but also internal migration within Europe. And one thing we have to remember, right, is that the welfare state is an intensely national social contract. Okay? Because the whole, the whole idea of solidarity cannot become too attenuated. The social contract in the US is what some some political scientists and theories for this procedure Republic, right, you know, sort of minimalist notion of the role of the state, whereas, you know, in Scandinavia has very substantive idea of what the democracy is like. And that really relies on real solidarity, real willingness, and that with Europe and with migration is really, you know, being questioned. And we can, we can, of course, the easiest thing is just the point of saying, well, that's probably that's terrible with, with all of this anti immigration feelings, but let's face it, right, you know, I mean, we were blind, if we don't recognize that there are limits to how attenuated you can make community and still make people feel like they want to take part in a social contract. So this is a real, big problem. And it's not easy to dismiss it in any directions. Unknown Speaker 56:13 Well, because one of the things that struck me as you were talking there, especially is that the issue of race never came up, because the universalism, so many of the things you were talking about seemed to be the real key. And, of course, states is that the welfare mothers, at least not in sheer numbers, but that's the archetype isn't typically like the black inner city, you know, single mother. So the whole issue of race, and for us, it's African American Caribbean Americans, but you know, can travel to Europe. I mean, they consider the Turks, you know, in Germany to be black, you know, so I didn't it can be different European countries are going to type different groups, but that whole racial issue, I think I just wanted you guys to comment on that. And I was also thinking about the the Anglo American situation, because I think they are too. And I was curious as to when whether UK has always been thought to be social democrat, was that a statue Unknown Speaker 57:06 cake never been this, rather the liberal Unknown Speaker 57:11 was out Thatcher post Thatcher thing, or was it the model initially Unknown Speaker 57:15 is a model, initially of the beverage plan raised in Great. Britain is a minimalist welfare state. So it's like the United States in that sense. So the little bit more. Britain's welfare state is really just focused on the health care system, the NHS is the only true welfare state program in any in every other way that he's like the US. This issue of immigration and race is one in particular, that I think is important in this in this regard. When I said before, that we put on rosy glasses, when we look at Europe, this is one area where I think the kinds of tensions and problems are just the same. In Europe as the United States, we there's the same kind of separations of segregated stigmatization and similar that going on, you know, the only differences is to is to try to see whether or not they are as severe in their consequences. We both of these processes of differentiation and integration are going on all the time everywhere. And and so the the point is to try to see whether the consequences are as intense in Europe, and what else happens in Europe to try to minimize the consequences of differentiations to contamination that have happened in the United States Unknown Speaker 58:39 because you're gonna have so many more minutes, and not in the time full. Okay. So look at the country, like I was traveling, Denmark, there's, I mean, that is one group of people, and you're not gonna see many people at all, besides me. And for you to say, well, the consequences of the country is gonna be, I guess, proportionately, it'll be the same. It's just gonna be so much more severe here, because there's so many more. Unknown Speaker 59:08 Well, and also because this is a theory Unknown Speaker 59:16 migration from the eastern Mediterranean? I'm not sure you're right. Unknown Speaker 59:25 Well, let me try this very abstract way of putting it I could give you in this in this regard, that all these differentiations are exacerbated when you've got primarily a market basis for social organization. You What you said is that we don't content control it. No, that's that's the way American states Saudi relations are. We allow the market to be the determinant of whatever is going on. And in that kind of a of a central system that exacerbates these sorts of differentiations when you've got a political system where Government does intervene more does take more of a hand in what goes on and more likely to find that these differentiations are minimal. It's the market. Unknown Speaker 1:00:11 There is there's the one thing I want just that what your your comment was, I think that one of the problems you see is, is a question of rate, basically, I mean, there's actually just appointed from here, that is to say, if your workout, certainly in Scandinavian case. In Sweden, there was a lot of in migration during, say, the 60s, right, same period, but women are. If you look at that group, they have done very well. Because why? Because Tuesday's because they came gradually, right? The numbers were doable, B there were jobs, right. So after generation, these have been assimilated, essentially. The simulation, there's not a key term here. Because what we don't have is a politics of difference. And of course, once that is being introduced into the case, then everything begins to fall apart. Because a simulation is has been reasonably in Sweden, as in France, let's say, a complete gibbon. If someone comes to your country, then it's, you know, sort of no discussion about the fact that they have to, you know, learn the language and adopt the culture, with a go to the public schools, right? Making Swedes out of knock peasants, but out of immigrants. Now you have a different kind of politics, which emphasize the right to difference the right framing of groups, right, then things get very much more complicated. And I must assure that the traditional assimilationist solutions, right, will be very awkward in anymore. And it's not clear, you know, what's there. And I in my view, if I may just sort of say kind of, broadly, what I see happening is I will say that we are much more likely it is funny to sit here and try to give advice to Americans, because I really think what we're going to see in Europe isn't Americanization. And I don't I don't see any Europeanisation of America, this is a terrible thing to say doesn't mean we should think about these things. But you know, that broad secular trends certainly are not. Actually, Unknown Speaker 1:02:21 that's what, first of all, I always want to kill myself when I hear somebody on screen. But then you end up by saying, and we're not going to we're not going to be like that here, it's even worse, even worse. One of the things that I wonder about and all the wonderful social programs that really was not only Sweden, but the European countries, I mean, there are many, many people who argued that it is not economically viable, and that they will not be able to sustain these and that there will be at least on an economic level, and Americanization with the New York State. And I wonder Unknown Speaker 1:02:54 Bill Vickery who just got the Nobel Prize. His main thesis was that we should all have bigger deficits, why not have deficits and spending? So what you're saying is an ideology is a particular interpretation of what the economy is all about. This, this interpretation that we had, you know, here, of course, it makes sense to reduce the deficit, you've got more money. But on the other hand, you know, the fact that we we spend so much on social, certain social programs and so much another, who's to say, what is enough and what's not enough, the economy is subject to interpretation, and the emotion is that Europeans, I just feel it's worth it to spend more Unknown Speaker 1:03:37 than obviously doing they're willing to pay the taxes. Unknown Speaker 1:03:40 I mean, that's good as well. One thing about taxes that I came up this morning, I just I actually brought the Western tax data. It is the case that Europeans do raw data in countries derive more of their total g8 the GDP from taxation, but it is not from income taxes on individuals and families. There are a variety of more kinds of taxes that the Europeans use. And there are variety of kinds of incentives and differences that with regard to Corporation taxes, the VAT is horrible, it's regressive. But nevertheless, it is not on individual families. And also their rates are much more progressive than that in the United States, it's really much more complex than than just raising taxes. Unknown Speaker 1:04:29 They don't have a gigantic military. I understand that there are tremendous differences economically, but ultimately, what I'm interested in is, what is the applicability of what if we listen to these extraordinary people read about the friendship and crash and know you know, the whole thing? What is it that could possibly be adapted in, give me American economy? What kinds of I mean, Unknown Speaker 1:04:56 I think the appreciation of why it is that we don't do those sorts of Thinking like this, the fundamental difference in a political philosophy that has to do with trust. We don't want to pay more taxes for our government, we don't trust our government to do these sorts of things. And Warren, justifiably that we don't know how that's going to change. Who knows. So with this kind of a political situation, I think what loss was just saying, as well, as it's important to note in this, in this respect, the economy is doing well, in the United States, we tend to be things be in that kind of a situation, Europeans are looking more to how they can American, their economy, and it will have implications on other social policy. It's not as easy as, Hey, this looks good. Let's put it here. Obviously, as we know, it's not it's Unknown Speaker 1:05:49 that's why that's why my question is, what is what is it remotely after, or in the in the near future, and what sorts of things can be adapted, Unknown Speaker 1:05:57 I mean, I've now come to the sense that the only thing that I mean that the US can hope for is incremental improvements. You know, I wrote this book on health care, we're not going to develop national health care, we're going to gradually have a few more people eligible for Medicaid, and even more people eligible for Medicare, and that kind of increment. I'm very pessimistic on that I think there are a few others. I keep thinking, what do we say here? We don't have our notes, you know? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Do they not? Do they do things differently? Well, I mean, it's not like an individual anymore. Unknown Speaker 1:07:00 And I think that there is a total tax burden to look at, right? You know, which is higher. I mean, it's in Sweden, for example, you pay 30%. Income tax, that's not so bad. But the VAT by value added tax is around 20%. And, you know, so it does begin to add up. And then you have property taxes and the like, and a different system of blessing, you know, options, as far as, you know, the introductory stuff as well. So, but so, I mean, there's no question that that there is more space. I do think I mean, I'm just I was just reading here, the statement of government policy from the Swedish Prime Minister just now. And it's interesting to see, because they have done a lot with economy in the last two, three years. So the economy now, you know, we've always looked behind. Right, you know, the last three New York Times last three, four years, all you hear is your collapsing welfare state, you know, what you see now is actually, that the budget? No, it looks much better on deficit is looking better. So you have very different tone of voice there. So I don't want to exaggerate the problem here, either. I mean, I think that there were excesses in the case. So it just seemed like this. For some there was a moment in Sweden when the rates suggested that sweets were the sickest people in the world. Because the rules related to to sick leave, were so generous that you actually got 90% on your first day. Right? So every episode, you started to do something which we used to call the mental health day as a mental health day, every month, right? So you take a day, now that gets expensive, not so they reduce it to two days, if you have to pay yourself, I mean, everybody can can handle that. Right? And suddenly, now they are the healthiest people in the world, right? That translates into money. So they are things that you that you can can do. So I think, I think at the economic level of things are doable, but now they have to be dealt with at the European wide level. And Mary brought that point up earlier. There. The big question is, are we going to follow a social democratic model or a Christian Democratic model? It's a very different thing. And the implications for Family Policy for women, right, are enormous at that level. So that I think there you have an interesting question within Europe, that relates a little bit to us, because the US clearly has a number of CO family attitude, you know, whether it's the traditional family or or some kind of more diversity type of family. So you have Unknown Speaker 1:09:30 a bit more about what will happen with the European social contract. My sense is that there was so many huge differences. It wasn't an agreement and weather monitoring. Right. And in addition, I was starting to struggle when I was in my body. Serious problems created the dynamic, Houston, Germany community Western, first of all, in terms of what happened to Social Democrats from their families, essentially gone, especially. But also, because I, but I'm not very good. i My sense is that all German sense of their ability to take care of people the way they had been was so much like they had some employment that they did, and they weren't able to deal with it, and so on and so forth. So I would have thought that what's happening in Germany and and some indication some is not. So. Unknown Speaker 1:10:44 I think that the, the, the Emir Absolutely. Right. And I mean, I think they'll be watching that attempt to integrate Eastern Europe and Eastern Germany in the enormous enormous cost associated Unknown Speaker 1:10:59 with I have no idea. Unknown Speaker 1:11:00 No, and I mean, exactly, exactly. And it's just going on and on. Right. And that's very costly. Now, the, the advantage that the Germans have, though, is the principle of subsidiarity. And this Catholic notion, originally is now becoming kind of the the organizing principle within the EU, that is to say that everything that can be done at the lowest possible level should be done there. Right? Now, that's in a way very good news in terms of your the state, because that means that you can keep delegating things I want to be called here, like, you know, sort of devolution, right, which usually means right, that you you tell someone to do something, you don't give them the money. And then use us you send out a letter saying good luck, right. And you have a little bit, yes, unfunded mandates. Thank you. That is something which you see. And that's doable within the paradigm of the German system, right? So you say, Okay, this has to be solved at a private local family level. And then we'll come in with, you know, emergency in a skin Navy case, that is runs against the grain of the of the whole basic principle. Right. So that's why I think in a way, it's, it's although the situation is acute in Germany in a certain way, right? In another way, structurally, they are better equipped at dealing with it. Absolutely not, this is what I was saying before, no question, I'm Unknown Speaker 1:12:26 gonna put my rosy glasses on because I'm actually more optimistic. They're what began to happen a lot of European countries with the expenditure to achieve or say, for them to get out of hand, so called, and there's some kind of realign that we don't think that needs to be going on. expenditures are being cut. But my sense is that, that the basic model basic paradigm is not going to be destroyed as a result. Because it was quite which it was quite full. And there are more problems are going to come in as you as you breathe things down a little bit more, but that some of these rights are so fundamental to European, that I can't see them changing that much. And also, again, because, you know, labor continues to be strong and involved in some way organize the unit or are there? I can't it's not it's it's going to decrease indeed. But I don't think it's going to be destroyed. Unknown Speaker 1:13:36 Later on, my question, what you were just saying, part of the interest group that maintains the impulse to protect and support them, we saw and so forth, this organized labor, which I assume is a rather more progressive form of interest group that is in America. Yeah. That may be water, I mean, seems to be one of the problems that not only organized labor is, is coming out of that, but that it ever was, or nylon was it never was, but it is not now. Unknown Speaker 1:14:13 You know, here's how it's going to be transformed with your question with regard to the Union. And and the Social Charter. Indeed, who knows what's going to happen? They can't even get the EMU going. But the first area of That's right, exactly, exactly. But one of the one of the first areas will have to do with labor and the mobility of labor, but it won't be the old kind of labor and the labor unions and so on, were organized around a certain point, industrial organization, so on that that very much is changing. And it isn't the same kind of organization, but I think it now becomes the idea of people working and there needs to be some kind of both protection For people working no matter where it is, because indeed there is there is open movement of people now you don't have to have passports anymore to go around it to the different countries. So there's more than that, but some very some unit that will continue to protect workers, although it's not the Union, as in the old days, is there something more we'll develop? It's the idea that people work that I think is important, and that the role of government is to protect people to vote. Government, not just that the nation state level or government is the bigger end of events where the I think the basic model just gets transformed from the country to its to very abstract, you know, these kinds of thoughts. But, but nevertheless, there's a different dynamic there going on, than in the United States. Again, we're, you know, the senses that it's sort of up to you to do what we're up to what, let's see what the market Unknown Speaker 1:16:11 really excels at? Oh, absolutely. General, and also much more, much longer. So they're not part of the political system in a way they're not. Unknown Speaker 1:16:25 And they have, in some ways, they have held back industrial change restructuration of the economy. And that's why I think that there will be an opening up what unions mean, what labor means, without destroying. Work. second shift, and she says, first thing is to take on this challenge. Unknown Speaker 1:17:08 Right, right. Yeah, no, I think there's no, there's no question. I mean, actually, the statistics that I've seen in this indicate that both both men and women, in fact want to do that, you know, first, right it. So there's a high when you look at the breakdown of what men and women like to do that that is there's actually a similarity there. What research reports indicates is that women are far more likely to end up doing other things, less interesting aspects of the household. Right. The question is, why do they do that? Right. And they I remember being in a conference in Stockholm once when, when the answer was the obvious one, there was a question about, you know, for men not being lazy or not wanting to do things, so forth. So I was, so I raised the bar, the possibility was that maybe maybe women are just more sensitive to this issue, not so much the having to do with men, right? No, but a certain type of internal logic among women, right, that they looked at the other woman, right. And I was sort of, you know, who did out of the room more or less, right, like religious thing to say, then afterwards, a Swedish woman who is doing research on this stuff came up to me and said, well, actually, I've been doing like researching this. There's a lot to that, right? When you look at trying to find out the motivation of why, you know, a women acting in this way, right? It gets more complicated. And that's why I was suggesting before that one of the interesting new areas is actually started looking into this a bit more. Unknown Speaker 1:18:43 One thing, you'd have to focus on gender roles, much more empathy, negotiation of gender roles in a situation where you can't just hire a maid type of thing. In the United States, it's very easy not to have to confront these sorts of issues, because of the differences in the economy. Unknown Speaker 1:19:03 That's a taboo in Sweden. It's a tip is very good. You mentioned that because I was going to say there is a whole debate about that, or P. Mates debate, right? And one of the problems for women who are professional women in the US, right, professional women, they get in trouble all the time, because they get they lose their jobs in government because they do it illegally. But I mean, you can do it. Right. And that's one way a certain conflict within families being resolved simply by paying for it right, in Sweden is a taboo because of the egalitarian culture. You know, to have a maid is really bad. I mean, people who had maids don't tell any secret thing. And it's a very touchy, aside from that it's not tax deductible, extraordinary expensive, unless you do it illegally, which is hard to do in a small country. Right. So this is interesting. Yeah, I think we should follow the left. Everybody goes to the next one. Thank you very much.