Unknown Speaker 00:17 Okay. My name is Celine Krause. And I'm going to be talking this morning about the politicization of blue collar women through toxic waste protests and environmental projects. Unknown Speaker 00:39 Yes. We're headquartered just north of here 45th Street, and I'll be talking about Unknown Speaker 00:52 as I saw on television a few months ago, and Unknown Speaker 00:59 I wanted to meet her, and then we ended up on this panel. So we started this dialogue on the phone. Unknown Speaker 01:06 Amazing, nearly an hour because my daughter Unknown Speaker 01:10 would normally interrupt us all the time. Unknown Speaker 01:13 You only interrupted this piece of clothing, no well understood. Unknown Speaker 01:20 And we need Unknown Speaker 01:21 to get a great discussion, which I hope we will continue here. After a little bit about what we're doing. A lot of my work has been initially first as an activist and more recently, as an Unknown Speaker 01:38 academic, looking at the world with blue collar women, in community organizing, in general, and more recently, blue collar women organizing around toxic waste. When I first started back in the in the case, community organizer, Unknown Speaker 01:59 I don't think I was fully aware Unknown Speaker 02:01 of the organization, I think it was something that I myself. And a lot of continue to fall for this evening's participant or the organizers, the groups were led by women, often to color women and, and were involved in very powerful struggles together to save communities. It was very politicized, partly in the 70s, when I decided to go on for my doctorate in sociology, on things in areas that I wanted to study, and understand better. And as I entered the Academy, I was told there parochial the particularistic, the conservative, they're unimportant, they're really not the direction of the important struggle in the country. And it was a kind of Unknown Speaker 03:06 dismissal. So and I write a lot about cheap of these protests, it really comes out very personal kind of experience for me to try and Unknown Speaker 03:16 make sense of and become aware of, why is it that community struggles with being dismissed? And especially why is it that the blue collar women and communities remain so invisible? And I think part Unknown Speaker 03:29 of this comes out of Unknown Speaker 03:31 a way of looking at Progressive struggles or class struggles Unknown Speaker 03:37 by male Unknown Speaker 03:38 sociologists, primarily in the labor movement. So labor struggles Unknown Speaker 03:44 are often defined as, and I'm not, I don't want to diminish labor struggles. But I would like to, I'm trying to account for why we were Unknown Speaker 03:51 involved in community struggle, Unknown Speaker 03:54 and progressively of social Unknown Speaker 03:56 change. So women's struggles, historically in social sciences were not looked at it and distorted. And then this very, very recent years, I've really been trying to make the connection and trying to understand how it is where it is that blue collar women struggle, and the governance and the struggle around what has been considered traditionally feminist issues. Terry Haven is working with a really interesting study, working on second trying to understand how working class women, feminism, feminist issues grow out of a projection of neighborhood home survival, affirming the material conditions of their own lives. So, um, much of the work I've been doing for the past decade, has been really trying to make sense of Unknown Speaker 04:57 experience that I was a part of experience. Most likely and what I see happening around the Unknown Speaker 05:03 country or around housing issues, education issues, their trends, urban issues and environmental issues, the toxic waste movement. And what we've seen really since the late 70s, is the emergence of a grassroots toxic waste, two of which in many ways distinguish a contemplative space itself from more traditional mainstream environmental organizations, Unknown Speaker 05:30 and has gone into something new environmental movement. Unknown Speaker 05:33 It's a movement that cuts across race, and it involves the Secretary's housewives in Unknown Speaker 05:45 the south, but primarily by black women, Unknown Speaker 05:51 black farmers. So what we see is a much broader constituency than traditional traditionally male. Unknown Speaker 06:03 And I think what he's Unknown Speaker 06:05 talking about, he has to be willing Unknown Speaker 06:06 to make the only move there. I, I think Unknown Speaker 06:10 it speaks to this, a very different type of environment. The word visibility of environmental communities was big, led by women, which is relatively invisible, as women's work has traditionally been. And Unknown Speaker 06:30 I think it's interesting to even hear about Unknown Speaker 06:34 how we hear that struggle with the world is the women who are coming to Chipko between a political ritual and a Nobel Prize, fighting against the conversation, because it's important for their survival Unknown Speaker 06:49 in this country. So Unknown Speaker 06:54 the work I've been doing, is really been trying to show the traditional views, both the policymakers and so on have changed. And the traditional left wing movements, for the most part, policymakers have prevented that. from becoming involved in the policymaking process, we struggled to dismiss this particular list of refusal on a corporate, so interesting, so that if you were part of this movement, I'm sure there's NIMBYs Unknown Speaker 07:31 not in my backyard, that never becomes the phrase, body, there's all kinds of groups. But what's interesting Unknown Speaker 07:39 is, in this case, Unknown Speaker 07:41 women countered with, namely, not in anyone's backyard Unknown Speaker 07:47 to try to count and form national coalitions Unknown Speaker 07:51 through groups like the citizens voice, which is an organization created by Lois Gibbs, who was Unknown Speaker 07:59 many find it lucky now. And in south, where it Unknown Speaker 08:10 encountered it was Unknown Speaker 08:11 expressions of pity, put it in black backyards. So you know, countering that Unknown Speaker 08:18 notion of particularism is an analysis that is not particularly particularism. It's a denial of class on race, and gender issues. And then at the same time, you see on the left, as I mentioned, this, also coming together ironically, for very different reason for the dismissal of these protests. Brookfields it'll change the world. And a tendency, in part because of the incredibly extreme to male labor, organizing activism historically. What I want to show is a different way of Unknown Speaker 09:02 protest. That one is Unknown Speaker 09:06 true that people come together while they're looking at issues outside the prevention of deciding with an incinerator, and so on. As women become involved in this process, please evidently have to encounter a world of color which excludes Unknown Speaker 09:27 and in the process of color Unknown Speaker 09:32 hasn't been shaped by gender is the next part of the study I'd like to start looking at how it is shaped by gender and race. striking for me. Unknown Speaker 09:54 I'm struck by there's more that come involved in this when we find out the numbers. Who are they putting the company For the Unknown Speaker 10:02 black community, to community Unknown Speaker 10:04 to the American community, you know, maybe they're getting Unknown Speaker 10:09 into colorblindness. Occasionally, if you care about how we learn, and they'll talk about what was Unknown Speaker 10:18 the president, she's become such a symbol of this country. But there's a whole new direction that's emerging, especially with foreigners and Unknown Speaker 10:35 one of the things I've done in the in the analysis of my work is hired to build a feminist perspective of change. Unknown Speaker 10:45 And what I think is Unknown Speaker 10:46 important about Unknown Speaker 10:48 the feminist perspective is that it Unknown Speaker 10:51 uses as the beginning point, the particular So rather than saying that particular as a critique as a dismissal is it sees it as a point to begin a place to begin to understand what politics has the everyday worlds of experience, and have consciousness come from Central for understanding social change. And this way, feminists have shifted the analysis for social change from more traditional macro levels of change. Unknown Speaker 11:31 Your own heart Unknown Speaker 11:34 and your own life is traditionally a relevant disability for women. Because women's work is part of the private sphere. And by definition, the private sphere was not good. Family of community of sexuality, by definition, this written out Unknown Speaker 11:59 of the larger book of public power, and policy, so on, Unknown Speaker 12:03 and so Unknown Speaker 12:07 on how Unknown Speaker 12:10 to find issues. What became central to feminist movement was challenging. And challenging dominant energies. And so, in the early years of feminism, I think this is a theme that's really continued. The whole notion of critical consciousness of women becoming active subject to making the leap in their own lives, and the larger spheres of public finances, personal and political, became a way of breaking through the traditional conceptions of political politics Unknown Speaker 12:58 by showing how it was meant by the particular Unknown Speaker 13:05 particular parts of everyday life, Unknown Speaker 13:09 that needed to have wouldn't be to make a connection Unknown Speaker 13:13 to those particulars and Unknown Speaker 13:14 the larger social relations. Referring to the particular restrict in the private sphere is not political, was the way we produce the ideology and challenge the ideology, if they were to act in their own lives. Now, what particulars mean to middle class women are different than what the particular mandate women what what has happened with feminism is a real critique Unknown Speaker 13:45 of the tendency to look at the personal the political, which has Unknown Speaker 13:49 been traditionally true. And not to that particular column, particulars, lives of women of color. So what does that mean? You take that same concept? And you say, let's take it to personal political, but you shifted, looking at the lives of different women who come out different. And what ironically happened is that a blue collar women, Unknown Speaker 14:19 mothers, community, family, Unknown Speaker 14:25 tremendously important ways of arenas are pulled out of politics historically. Unknown Speaker 14:33 For centuries, been the agreement struggle. The means were often on Unknown Speaker 14:42 injustice. And so how do you understand when you get inside of a particular experience of different groups Unknown Speaker 14:56 and looking at the world Are Unknown Speaker 15:01 these protests, my analysis on things I would have introduced when they were Dalton systems clearinghouse Unknown Speaker 15:12 for toxic waste. Unknown Speaker 15:15 Started by Lowe's. Unknown Speaker 15:20 As she sees this movement as a Unknown Speaker 15:25 working class, women's and himself, try to integrate become self conscious of the kinds of issues that are emerging money struggles, which covered different she feels the way traditional feminist issues that we conceptualize. It's not surprising that because the diversity is weighed down by technology, primarily, communities. And because women have traditionally been responsible for the health of their children, they're often most likely to make that link to notice the problem to the community in general populace. With health related hazards such as charges for cancer deaths, neurological symptoms, initial response to community was to grow. Government to protect the health and welfare of your children. I grew up in a blue collar community. It was very patriotic. I believe and I believed that you had a place you went to the right person that there was a way to solve Unknown Speaker 16:46 the problem, they will be glad to do Unknown Speaker 16:49 it, but gives an other space to government that was indifferent. If not attentiveness as to their concern. Unknown Speaker 16:54 I'd love to know, local government officials are the toxic waste pollution nificant because smoking three cigarettes a day Unknown Speaker 17:06 that runs of New Jersey, local officials are new to living with solutions, the price of a better way of life, actually is across the street, Unknown Speaker 17:15 because they have to take risks and this Unknown Speaker 17:23 information was withheld from residents by state officials because they didn't want to panic. Unknown Speaker 17:29 This was seen for example, in strict federal California, where 800,000 gallons of toxic waste chemicals pumped into the community flows directly behind the elementary school and into the playground. Children played in public contaminated by toxic waste information was. Unknown Speaker 17:50 Initially women they become involved in these issues because they're concerned about the health effects on their family. Unknown Speaker 17:57 But as they become involved, they very quickly, foreign governments. Unknown Speaker 18:04 And in the process of protesters, they often create a world typically involves in a world of power, which is normally hidden from Unknown Speaker 18:13 an activist all our lives, we will leave certain things about ourselves as women Unknown Speaker 18:19 get justice, and about people in positions of authority. Once we become involved with toxic waste problems, we need to confront some of our own beliefs and change the way we do the things we take on government. Looters. We're up against the largest corporations in the United States. They have money to lobby pay off the job and they threaten it we challenge them and the only things we have people in the truth was there that our government does not protect our rights. Protect our families, we're forced to take this protest. Unknown Speaker 18:54 As the first step in approach, will call women of course to examine their own assumptions about political power is to begin to see the contradiction between the government that claims to act Unknown Speaker 19:06 on behalf of the public and a government which has a downward effect and the actual policy, the government the ways in which the government position the powerful business interests over the health and welfare of their children and their families. Unknown Speaker 19:24 But as the caller was involved in the struggle of Unknown Speaker 19:29 the Public Works politics, Unknown Speaker 19:30 as we heard this morning is traditionally white, male and middle class. And one activists said 78% of local leaders are women and women leaders in a community run by them. Because of Unknown Speaker 19:45 this many women face obstacles and conflict. Unknown Speaker 19:50 Whether they're frequently ignored by No politicians or government officials and male corporate spokesman. manipulators have become involved in these protests don't consider them So as activists were different, we've been involved in the process. And initially, they feel very shy and intimidated by the idea of entering the public arena, which is a problem which is often exacerbated even more than they'll officials. Presiding over emotional, especially to the gym, I can give thority Unknown Speaker 20:24 customize whether or not it's a resource empowerment. Lucado women have appropriated these persistence and use them against their critics. I've noticed core Tucker organized a toxic waste in rural North Carolina. When they first called me, hysterical housewife, I used to get very upset and go home and cry. Unknown Speaker 20:54 Everything we do from a certain place, I've learned that the tactic men used to keep keep us in our place. So when they started this stuff on toxic waste, and went back, and a guy gets up and says, We have a whole bunch of hysterical hustlers today. We need to get prepared. I said, you're exactly right. We're hysterical. And when it comes to matters of life and death, especially mine, I think. And I said, If I don't get hysterical if some men don't get hysterical, there's something wrong with them. And then they start calling us the length of hysterical housewives, emotional women, mothers become a language, particularly Unknown Speaker 21:43 one which exposes the limits Unknown Speaker 21:44 of the public arena to address the importance of family health and community. Unknown Speaker 21:50 The traditional role of Unknown Speaker 21:51 mother, a protector of the family is also Unknown Speaker 21:54 how blue collar activists Unknown Speaker 21:57 most gives describes and also talking to your protector. Okay, you can say it's hard to believe that she ever come with private care about low skips, too. It's hard to believe her first experience in organizing the real Unknown Speaker 22:12 transformation of women over the years but she writes about her real insecurity when she first started to work. And she said she started when she went door to door Unknown Speaker 22:27 to find out what health problems people are facing, and she's very quiet person or nobody answers. For people to politics, Unknown Speaker 22:42 they don't even think Unknown Speaker 22:44 about levels that women are dealing with today. Political means going knocking on the door and overcoming the fears and insecurities inside yourself. Unknown Speaker 22:55 So again, traditional left when you see this as an issue of hyper political problems can be dealt with, probably not just for women, but for Unknown Speaker 23:04 oppressed people around the world. Unknown Speaker 23:08 But she said that when she came home and she sat down, she started thinking about her son. And she gathered up the courage to go back out again. Unknown Speaker 23:19 Remember number of ways Unknown Speaker 23:21 the power that women feel the private sphere, Congress's power, pelvis Unknown Speaker 23:31 and much of Unknown Speaker 23:33 what faces clearing house and stolen Unknown Speaker 23:37 lives leadership is trying to help recall them and translate Unknown Speaker 23:42 how do they feel at home Unknown Speaker 23:46 into how they can feel as organizers Unknown Speaker 23:48 and help them Unknown Speaker 23:50 make those kinds of connections. But I think that's important to see what's traditionally seen as a particular Unknown Speaker 23:59 realm of family, Unknown Speaker 24:02 community, motherhood, parochialism become a source of power coveted. Third, Unknown Speaker 24:17 third point that women have to confront is power relations Unknown Speaker 24:26 in the so called family Unknown Speaker 24:29 and how Unknown Speaker 24:32 they begin to see the ways in which relationships into the patriarchal family mirror, larger power relations. And women's involvement new grassroots Unknown Speaker 24:42 activism also changes not only the views the world of politics of their relationships with their husbands. Husbands respond in very different ways from a supportive to take no steroids. time away from the family. The kids had said, the husband in the blue collar community is saying, Get your ass home and cook me dinner. Unknown Speaker 25:11 If you were me on the issue, make your choice. A woman says, Unknown Speaker 25:17 How can I make a choice you're telling me to choose between the health of my children and your fucking dinner? We deal with that. Unknown Speaker 25:30 Every time I look at this quote, Unknown Speaker 25:34 I just I think this is the cup that resonates with women, whenever women come up to me afterwards, because I think somebody's independence experiences Unknown Speaker 25:42 when you're getting organized with them, so they always sort of knew that the family, ironically, those women become involved with Unknown Speaker 25:49 the organizing the labor organizing, but women are Unknown Speaker 25:53 faced with a real contradiction, because assumptions, everybody is equally concerned with children. And when you start to experience the contradiction of children, the Conservatives are not the person. This can go many directions, Unknown Speaker 26:11 sometimes power Unknown Speaker 26:12 in some way. Unknown Speaker 26:15 Occurring houses will try to start organizing workshops, specifically with this issue. But by and large, stress is not very high. A reminder that supports Wi Fi efforts. So I want to go Unknown Speaker 26:44 to traditional family casual. What I have is the ways in which the column women Unknown Speaker 26:58 as they fought to protect children and Unknown Speaker 27:00 communities from hazards posed by toxic waste, Unknown Speaker 27:04 have used the everyday world for their experience as the beginning Unknown Speaker 27:10 of a nation of traditional assumptions about the relationship in family community. Unknown Speaker 27:17 And in the process Unknown Speaker 27:20 of contradiction about how political power is organized above the class divisions within government and gender division, and how family reproduces traditional calculation. Unknown Speaker 27:37 In many ways, we'll probably move beyond Unknown Speaker 27:40 the traditional issue, which initially evolved, it was protesting and has a particular set of issues for extensive, this particular step that comes from the transformation of consciousness and political action. Unknown Speaker 28:19 You like to start so much is going on right now with the environmental justice movement? And that maybe I'll just make a few comments on what's happening nationally. What are the critical reports that was put together by the United Church of Christ Commission for Racial Justice back in the 70s. Now, actually, that report was called toxic waste. And basically what that report found is, race was the main major determining factor in where toxic waste sites are cited National Weather words, they are more toxic waste sites, and black and Latino and Native American communities in this country than anywhere in terms of income was the second determining factor. But race was always found to be the primary indicator. Now that that is something that is a factor that that is very hard for some people to deal with in this country. I recently last summer, I went to Highlander, which is a lot of people know about it. It's a What would you how would you describe it? It's an organizing, organizing organization that it brings grassroots organizations together to to debate and discuss and develop dialogue around progressive issues in this country. And recently, we had a weekend seminar there on on environmental justice and race. And by the end of the weekend, several of the lead organizers of Highlander failed to show up at the Sunday session, because they were so alienated by the discussion of race. And it's the way race plays a major factor in issues in environment. And let me just go into some reasons why Highlander is located in Kentucky, and obviously, a low income community, where there has been major environmental degradation to the land, strip mining, toxic waste sites, incinerators, the whole gamut of problems. And the lead organizer for these sessions has had some fatalities in his family due to some of these problems in their communities. And he just could not deal with many of his talks, saying that talking about race is essentially a significant factor in deciding of these facilities, and it was an issue that somehow we could not overcome, we could not really get an honest dialogue going on the issue of race and the plants in terms of the environment, and I could just say that they were probably 20 people representing organizations from around the country, many of them from the south, there was a very large contingent of us from, from New York City, which I think was very unusual to these kinds of these kinds of meetings. Because generally, urban areas, and New York City in particular, have not played a large part, and environmental precedents organized. So I just want to start out by telling by letting you know that that race, in terms of environmental justice is something that is a factor that many, many people just cannot come to grips with, at this time yet. And as we know, a lot of people in this country just cannot understand or don't want to, to believe or admit that race, that there is racism in this country, and that it colors, everything that that goes on in this country in terms of public policy. And if you can't start out with that as a fact, then that it's very hard for you to proceed and be able to work with a number Unknown Speaker 32:59 with a number of organizing efforts in this country. But certainly we know what's happening on reservations in this country, that well, voters choice, and that we're looking to buy power from the Hydro Quebec project up in Quebec, and that just by New York State, Chinese buying power, and having that that whole proceeding take place, we're talking about the Cree homelands being flooded. And we're talking about, you know, ancestral homelands, not being able to be we're talking about land that is being used for survival for food and, and fishing and etc. We're talking about land that won't be used in New York State, because through a hydrophobic process, and just the other day, there's a show called Best talks with David Lynch, on channel 11. And he was interviewing the candidate in New York Power Company was talking about this very project and talking about it very, very locked in. And certainly, in talking about it really, in terms of, you know, New York needs this power. And so that that's really shouldn't be the determining factor in this process, not not what it's going to nothing negative impact on other people. So frequently, what we find is that these projects are sided, simply because someone has a power relationship over someone else. And of course, we know who has the power relationship. Like yes, I've met with organizations like the Southwest organizing project that deals with children who've had whose faces are broken down because The water is poisoned on their reservation. We know that one out of four children in this country are still living in in homes or dwellings that have led paint on the walls. And they have just been led. We know right here in the city, that East Harlem, worksite heights and Ben Stein in Brooklyn, have the highest rates of lead poisoning in the city. And probably more than 50% of children who are in special education. Classes are there due to some disabilities to stay through the lead poisoning. We also know that women who had been poisoned his children now have children are giving birth to babies who now have elevated blood levels. So something as simple as lead poisoning because we know how to stop it. We know how to stop it, we know how to prevent it. Something that we thought it had been eradicated in the 50s and 60s, is here before us. And right now there are lawsuits all over the country just to deal with lead poisoning, and there is a suit here in the against New York City bureau of lead poisoning. It's been brought by Brock's legal services and a pretty wide Task Force on that issue. So you will be hearing more and more about lead poisoning. And please don't think it's a dead issue because it's unfortunately alive and well here, right here in the city. Certainly you know about the issue, the hundreds of 1000s of Latinos who are dying from use of pesticides in this country, we know that the largest landfill isn't a meal, Alabama, which is a black community and prepared for community in Alabama. And as we know, we're supporting our ways to other countries. American American Cyanamid over New Jersey is probably the largest Mercury processing Unknown Speaker 37:12 company in the world. And they have a reprocessing plant in South Africa, which is poisoning the main source of water for the Zulu Nation. So, you know, this continues on an international and national level here and here at home. My organization was called Environmental Action. As I said, we're located just a few blocks north of here. And we have, we were really organized around several issues that came about here in our community. And their issues that may not seem as life threatening as the ones that you hear about in the south. But they are what we call the urban environmental issues. And we are we have been working around the issues of siting of bus because deciding of waste management facilities like the North River sewage treatment plant, which I'm sure all of you all have seen along the West Side Highway, it's located 238. And what happens so often is that when these facilities are sited, they tell you that jobs are going to you know, this is going to be a job creation situation. And 15 or 20 years ago when, for instance, North River was first thought about and that came about because the federal Clean Water Act, and the fact that all of the waste from Battery Park City up despite Diebold was going untreated, right from the toilet into the Hudson River. And so when clean water at this past year, Congress, New York City was given a certain amount of time to come up with a plan and to come up with with a sewage treatment plant. That plant was first supposed to be sited at 79th Street in the Hudson. And that community was very successfully able to mobilize against that plant. And so it was moved further up town. And what we know about minority communities and low income communities is that they have few resources, they have very little political clout. And that they they have a history of not being able to effectively mobilize against these kinds of projects. So that you, you know, inevitably the city goes to, to the community of least resistance. And in New York City, those are communities of color, for the most part. So what we were able to do was to was to organize people who live closest to the plant and as you as Celine has talked about women and NP For color, we have a very good survival instinct. And even though the word environmental may be considered, you know, a movement representing a movement, that's white and middle class, we know how to protect our interests. And so what happens is that you may not have an entire community organized around this particular issue, because guest housing and drugs and fun have to be certainly I would even have to say that those are the number one issues in our community, with the people living closest to some of these facilities. Those people are very easily organized. And in fact, those people will come to you. I mean, they're not sitting there at home waiting to be organized, they will get on the phone, and they will call you. So what happened when, for instance, where the river was sited. We didn't know anything about sewage treatment plants, and I'm a Democratic district leader, by the way, which is an elected party position, which is unpaid. And so when I was first, I was first running for office, I was having my little volunteer, you know, parties to get volunteers to help. And someone stood up and said, Well, there's going to be a sewage treatment plant opening soon, and what are you going to do about it? I looked at my, you know, in the Democratic Party have male and female co founders. And so I looked at my male COVID are like, what's that? What are we going to do about it? And so the first thing we started working on was jobs. Well, we have this thing in the midst of our community, we've got to get community people. Unknown Speaker 41:47 So we started a community Task Force, and we divided elected officials. And we started talking about these jobs. So we were able to get 20 to 30 people hired until the civil service exam was given, maybe four months later, they were all let go, because, you know, they had been fired provisionally that they did pass the exam. And of course, what we found out was that these treatment plans are very, they're not people intensive, they're machine. So that they really require very few staff, six to 10 people. And what they do is they tend to, you know, there's a 14 plant 14 sewage treatment plants in the city. So what they do is resolve the spam. So they were really just bringing in people from another plant and getting them trained, and, you know, having them come in and train new people, so that there really weren't a lot of jobs. So four months later, when the plant goes online, we start getting the Thomas food community there odors, there's, you know, emissions, what's coming out of the stacks, why is there a blue flame? It's always very, what is. So then the real work started. Now for communities of color, who's never had any experience with this, who doesn't have an environmental organization, they're already organized. Believe me, this took a lot of work. For six months, I was on the phone, just getting referrals. I call community board seven, which is community board in well, actually, right here, we relocated your community board nine, which is the community board that was Parliament's in 110 Street is the dividing line. So below 110, you have just a load of environmental organizations that have been very effective, and very successful around a number of issues. One of them having been the fight against West Point. So I started at seven, and they give me the names of four engineers and five other people. And for six months, you're calling all these people piling information. You know, I called a couple of major environmental organizations, but they were busy on the bond after something at the time. They don't have a whole lot of people. So the one or two people keep people who, you know, would have been interested in this issue, we're doing something else. So for a year, you do not waste time, but you lose time. Because we're always behind in terms of public policy issues. And this sewage treatment and these kinds of facilities are part of a larger public policy issue. That is being debated now such as incinerators landfills, all of that's being debated in the in the media now, and I'm sure you've seen the articles in The Times. And what's going to come out of those debates are going to be facilities, the impact on localities down the road. Maybe you can tenure standard. But the but the issue is being debated now are being decided now. And if we aren't there, and generally we are not there making those decisions, then again, so let the community 10 years down the road is going to be faced with the disk prices in this facility. And they're going to spend a year or two, like we did, trying to get up to speed on what in the world is going on in this community? And how do we really deal with this? Now, certainly, the political process is very, very important. And I don't think you can live the community organizing divorce, or how it is eventually going to impact on the political process. And certainly working within the political process to some degree with your system. Now, in rural areas, that organizing is a little different, because generally, the perpetrator is a private corporation. And corporations are very, very difficult to deal with. They have lots of money, and they have lots of resources. And so they tend to deal with communities in a very different way. I mean, we're a little luckier probably, because, you know, hopefully, we're not going to, you know, have people shadowing us and following us and cars, and shoving us off the road. Just kinds of things that you hear about, and they actually do. When she mentioned court tighter. My organization had a community conference about two years ago, and we brought her up from Milan and, and Unknown Speaker 46:46 some of the things she talks about in terms of been a crazy ride in the car to take your grandchildren with Carly, just get a score on a little errand, because she was being followed by various people when she was in the thick of a change like this corporations place. And those kinds of things, you really understand the kinds of pressures that can be brought to bear on organizers. I mean, certainly we all know the history of union organizing in this country. So when you think about organizing, that that's not too much to think that, that there's real violence and real danger associated with certain kinds of work. Certainly, urban, in terms of urban terms, there are lots of ways that they document government can put the pressure on you, certainly, you've got to get your elected officials on board. You've got to have meetings to city agencies to try and get things under control. I mean, what we've been involved in for the last five years is meeting with the city D, the environmental protection to try and make them do what is necessary to maintain this claim. Because we realize that certainly the more radical elements in the community would like the plant to be shut down. And we know insurance policy that because if that happens, then the water is polluted. And there's a whole new set of problems that come when you have that kind of bacteria in the model. Probably not quite sure. So we know that the plant can't be shut down. So that we've got to look at a range of policy options. And we've got to negotiate. Fortunately, we're now to issue the demons administration, which is very different than the college administration. Contract ministration. And Mr. Hart Commissioner Harvey Schultz, never ever admitted there was a problem with the plant. So it's it's such a breath of fresh air when you talk to you, Commissioner apples, and he says, Yeah, I smelled the plant the other day, and it was really bad. And, you know, we're going to try and get to the bottom of this. So at least that's a good first start. But certainly, I've been talking a lot to the Bar Association and into law schools, because one of the resources that a community like mine needs is legal resource. We were able to file a suit against the MTA for instance. They want you know, I've had six depot's best because in Manhattan fiber and we certainly know the diesel fuel mix particulates that are very, very harmful. Specially know when you look at the incidence of asthma and respiratory problems, just one of the figures to lose data to why we go respiratory problems. lows are the leading reason for hospitalizations for children under nine years old is likely pretty startling statistic. And as we know, African Americans and Latinos have a higher incidence of respiratory problems and asthma than any other estimate is this country. So when you started looking at, like those kinds of correlations, and let me tell you this kinds of correlations have not been made. One thing we're looking at right now is working with the city wide Task Force for college community environmental health center. And probably hospital, we're looking at the clock trying to make a correlation between us and respiratory complex and similar in the environment in Northumberland County. And we've Unknown Speaker 50:51 just started Unknown Speaker 50:52 starting to take a look at that, because the incidence is escalating to such a degree that people are finally saying that it's not a good legit reason. Other than saying simply a physical predisposition, there's got to be something that's going on in the internal or external environment, internal thing back home. So that, really there. So I was mentioning the MTA, we were able to file a suit against the MTA citing another bus depot in our community, clinic very great cause we went to Harlem legal services, which is a very small, legal entity and file. And they deal mostly with landlord tenant cases. And when they decided to take this case on environmental litigation is lengthy and the kinds of research you need to do is very time consuming. And it was going to take somebody signed, and it turned out to be the executive director for two months to just deal with that case. And what it meant was that they had because they've taken this on, but they were going to have to take care of way. eviction cases, because you know, he's a small. And we also, were able to get a Convention Center for Law and Social Justice and Brooklyn, which is not by accident centers. And so we were able to, to at least be able to represent the community for the first time against the city, in this community, on this issue of looking at environmental overload, looking at this community as a dumping site, and saying one word facility is too much is that in between environmental justice. Now, unfortunately, that is not determined by the broader moral argument, it was decided that well, we have today, as we mentioned, we make laws and public policies find out about all the conventions and rules that the various groups to since they haven't really mentioned, they don't have to do an environmental impact statement, even though the bus depots site has been there since the turn of the century as a trolley site. So they've never ever had to do an EIS on it. Because they always had this way, right. So what we were able to to, to get the judge to say, however, was that if the land is being used for anything else that is that that has to be done. And what we found out was that a local development company wanted to put a luxury housing development that called Parliament, and they wanted to put the subsidized meltingly housing on top of the depot. So what we weren't able to get the judge to say was, yes, the site was used for anything else, like housing, and EIS would have to be done. And of course, the MTA doesn't want to do that, you know, so that for couple of years, stopped that from happening. But once you understand when you get involved in litigation around these kinds of cases, is that you have to constantly monitor this. Because, yes, the judge has said that, but it could be five years from now they've tried to put housing up. There's no way that there's a ban, because they're doing that He requires us knowing that they're doing that and us going back and forth. And if for some reason we're not around or somehow don't know. You know, it gets done. So that again, the public policy aspect of all of this is it's very, it's really at the crux of the matter. Now. There are a lot of issues. Now in terms of major environmental organizations, races last week schools, and one of the reasons we're seeing some movement in the whole issue of environmental justice and recycling Isn't these facilities and minority communities is because of money and foundations? And foundations in as? Well? Gee, I don't know if I want to give this national group because I love depends on the natural resource Council. Why should we give you all this money? Are you really working with grassroots organizations? I mean, is the money going there, maybe we should look at getting some of this money directly to some of those grassroots groups. So now what you see happening because of that, these organizations looking at joint venturing more with we've seen that national groups like the Commission for Racial Justice, Unknown Speaker 55:45 putting these national what you call the big 10, putting them on notice that gee, no, you don't have any last Asians and Latinos, and we're snap yet you're making public policy issues that affect us, and you're getting federal funds and state funds. Now, where's the affirmative action here? So now that some of these issues are being brought out, and there was a major article in the Times, that was the same time to me? No, it's amazing. So usually, this is a long, and it's almost like spontaneous combustion, because there are grassroots organizations operating all around the country. Now. They have coming together, we're now looking at holding a national conference next year. And what we find, again, is that because people doing books, the least four people have interviewed me for doing books on environmental justice in six months. And we do find that there, there are differences between rural and urban organizing, certainly the urban, the rural organizing, is done more within the civil rights model. Often, the kinds of groups that are doing organizing around environmental issues, I tend to work this, or they were organized around a broader mandate, but now take on environmental issues as special projects that really become priority projects, because there's so much stuff going on. But what we're now finding in the north, which is a little different, is that people are starting to read specifically around environmental issues. And recently, a group of us started the Coalition for environmental justice, here in New York City. And it's made up of people of color, we're working with some musicians. There's a group called toxic demand juice, which is a lead to a group. And they work together on those toxic waste stores, that's employees. And then there's some other groups that are beginning to start. And the key dialogue now is how do we work with other other white low income groups in this clinic? And the issues around them? And And certainly, that is a major issue. Sleep mentioned dogs, kids earlier, they love canal? Well, one of the very disturbing facts about that whole organizing effort was that homeowners were relocated. But there was a very large public housing project in the same community. And those people will ever do. So that even now, when we talk about organizing efforts, the issue of race still there and isn't addressed. And they quite often, organizing efforts led led primarily by white communities, never do the outreach to surrounding communities that are also impacted by the issue. And like very, very disturbing, that that is still happening. And it's something we've got to be very, very mindful of, and we certainly can't use their knowledge ever use that word. Hearing saying all the time, the money, but should we certainly. We certainly have to find ways to work in a coalition more as a city. And I think that is beginning to happen. Staten Island has been reaching out to groups around the city around the issue of this new Asheville that the city is saying they're not planning but they're sort of budgeting. And so more and more I think we will find ways to work in coalition, but very clearly the public policy aspect is going to be very, very important. And one network that I've started working in just said Um, NRDC, for instance, is reaching out for Environmental Defense studies is reaching out more. And I'm going to Manhattan recycling board that attended by Jim twig, who is a senior official at BBN. And so he's going to try and call get into tri state meetings on transportation, and how the MTA capital budget is going to affect low income communities. And what what you find is you got to go to these meetings, not transportation experience, and feel a little at a loss. And there is not a whole lot of time to get up to speed on this issue. Unknown Speaker 1:00:42 But you know, you sometimes feel if I'm not there, then a whole segment of the population isn't, isn't represented. And when I look around the table, there are even many ways it's pretty, it's a pretty male oriented, when you're just talking about public policy and major environmental issues. It's pretty male oriented, and white, male oriented. And when you see women at the table, they're generally representing LGBT spaces and parks organizations, which are very close enough, obviously, but I find, you know, if there was a common denominator of in terms of the women, I see the table quite often they are the ones who are representing or who are heads of organizations, or they take some pharmaceutical space. But certainly where I do find where we represented or as attorneys, with some of these major life in organizations, and what I find is the people who are social justice forehand. And when you go into social justice litigation, white and black, still don't see the environment as a social justice issue. And so more and more of what we've been doing pending leaders, the social justice groups, for instance, we have a meeting with the NAACP Legal Defense Fund that two months ago. And they want you to find out how they, what did they do and, and try and find a role for themselves in relation and how they can be helpful. And what I found is that, still, there is a little business as well, you know, that these education places that we have to really go into places where there's this real essential position. And I think more and more people are discovering that it is once they realize that it will diagnose issues are not simply a conservation of wildlife, which is the stereotype. And so I think we're beginning to make some some headway there because clearly, it is essential discuss issue that affects primarily on health. And when we look at it as linking it with, with health issues, I think we find a lot more receptiveness in our communities on these issues. I may have rambled a bit, but I might stop there and so that we can all have a go. Unknown Speaker 1:03:24 The question? Unknown Speaker 1:03:33 The question, or it has been doing I'm gonna try Unknown Speaker 1:03:40 to frame questions that have to do with dealing with this question about this, in a, in a slightly different perspective, because I personally feel the need, it's such an expensive because I think that this has that, because I look here, and of course Unknown Speaker 1:04:02 was Unknown Speaker 1:04:06 quiet. And, and I and I wonder how can we you know what, there's some relationship between that and the methods by which we organize. And this whole thing about releasing imagination, and finding the political real. And I think that a lot of times is a certain kind of male model of organizing, that goes on, and it goes something like this, and I'm in the process of organizing this conference. And I am aware of it now. And point out how terrible everything is. And then you say we have to do something about and then in the process of that, and I know from my own experiences in the 60s and the processes, but I became aware that I wasn't going to When seriously, as a thinker as a reader, because I was feeling and I brought that up. But the point was, Well, we haven't got time to deal with that. Because there's this process. There isn't enough. And I think that groping slowly and slowly, so in understanding the personal or professional about having a room and start organizing, they have, they have to go through all these changes, which isn't, it isn't recognized as a valid thing, it isn't recognized as a valid part of organizing any kind of personal growth or personal changes that you might have to do. And I'm doing this now, as I'm organizing this conference in Las Vegas. I going through a lot of changes. But that's not to say it's valid, you just push it is tough. Go ahead. But I'm wondering if there isn't questions here that had to do with being with developing, having our organism developing a vision of there being enough time and awareness, that there, there is enough space. And that and then working these things out is valid, as part of our political Nexus, and, and getting to overcome. Because I think when you talk about race in this country, you're talking about immediately talking about, well, we don't want glasses soon, because there aren't enough jobs to say, And so somehow, we have to have our organism is dealing with these terrible things that are happening, at the same time, have our organizing processes, develop our visions of what, What even are organizing, so that we can overcome these, because I don't think there's a person in this room. Who wouldn't, you know, doesn't arguably desire you know, a non racist, class based women's movement and society. So Well, I'm just, I'm just groping around trying to Unknown Speaker 1:07:16 see if it requires more than Outreach. Well, to give you an example, I was in a great college environment at night, which was organized around, I guess, making an impact on the mayoral races and getting all the distressed organizations together with an agenda. Now, after the mayoral race in the past year, we've tried to review groups in color who tried to work with this organization. And what we found is that, yes, they're willing to do outreach as you're sitting at the table and making these decisions. But as long as it's on their agenda. You see, the whole issue is broadening the agenda. That is the real issue, broadening the policy agenda. And the bottom line with people don't forget to them, for instance, give you a very specific example. This particular group wanted to write a letter to Mayor Dignitas, and they had five issues, they were not pleased with them. Well, my group of people had several issues, we weren't too pleased with them. One was the god of good Bob, which some of you all know about. Their to turn him into a biocide facility that is the whole landmark preservationist is against that aspect that we take may not be the best place to have such a facility that was committed. So there were three very hot and heated emotional meetings about why they shouldn't include the audit. And some other issue in this letter they want you to do is to separate and some other times, and I made some very angry customer meetings, and we realized that perhaps it's not in our best interest to spend our time trying to raise their consciousness, anything I've has interest to get our own organization together, and then we will deal with them from a position of strength. But if you're not willing to share your agenda and broaden that agenda, the outreach of just having some faces of color in the room is tough, totally new. Unknown Speaker 1:09:42 Concept without a lot of trouble. It assumes, you know, the place where the powers and the agendas for me reach out to them. You know, it's just it's, it's really I think we do Because, and then the coalition even also has proxy because it tends to be that, you know, when basically proceeds politics have different interests or adversarial interest, but for certain issues, we will make the coalition it's a narrow, it's a useful concept, but it can have this very narrow tendency is not a good really is a deeper commonality and a genuine inclusiveness of grinding by the sanding and grinding of an agenda. It's just, you know, it can be that, you know, we'll, we'll call a master with a coalition of this issue. But you know, they will divide because we have basically separate apps around different cities, it's really heartening to see that, I think, a lot of ideas, people, why activists in particular to use, you know, supposedly to address this question of the base politics in Paris, inherently racist in some way. And so, there may be impulses that are distributed. Such that not all people are surprised to find it. Because, you know, I've been targeted by virtually impossible to be fine politics, sensibility and language to make an organization to make your own culture, they talk, crap, you know, they have to make your posters a certain way, all this kind of stuff, right? If you feel like that, if you're just not in some way represented, it's very difficult as a new survivor, to go into these organizations, like Dell was talking about this morning, you know, it's difficult one can find oneself the other in some situation or another. So the question is, I think that's why it's important to round up to what is called outreach raise for Fatima, who had recently recently, so my question, I think, in keeping with the purpose of this conference, you know, are there policy proposals that isn't work on transportation or other issues, which you could say to you, you could say to people who are electrostatics, but you do work, mostly in spiders kinds of studies? These are kinds of work, are there things that you could even say, to read into the referee shirt? Because I think, you know, there's a lot, you know, there still is a hall, Congress, you know, there are a lot of people who are in, you know, various sorts of academic institutions and other places, and have a relative degree of flexibility, what they do on my face more often, the research agendas of people aren't necessarily formed by you know, what the real political case. But I think, you know, maybe if we were to wish it were otherwise, are useful. And you can imagine, oh, Unknown Speaker 1:13:22 I'm the policymaking in Unknown Speaker 1:13:23 Oregon. Well, I think there's, as I said, women are in most of these, most of these issues, at least in terms of people who are sitting there making decisions. So I would say that, I mean, we certainly need to be encouraging them to go into, into different areas to do research on, on the transportation and the alternative fuel issues. Unknown Speaker 1:13:52 And certainly Unknown Speaker 1:13:53 to look at perhaps, new models of community organizing, new models of setting up I'd say legal groups, residents of Canada, it's been several women of St. Luke's Roosevelt is ready to read because we're here. And we have a community coalition on on that because they want to remove the maturity of pediatrics and neonatal beds and take them down to 59th Street. So working with NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and legal aid, Harley Glade, we have been able to file and administrative complaint and talk about discrimination in terms of using federal funds. That's the hook we're using on this. And I think that we need just we need more legal entities that are doing very specific. I think their specific work on these kinds of broader issues, because as I said, Well Straight legal proof. So I've taken up with work that helped me in my day. But we have litigations, and, and those kinds of those types of civil complaints. So that we really need to look at some of the broader land use, certainly the land use issues, even though I'm sure a lot of women go into urban planning, I don't see a whole lot of them in some of these public policies, you know, making assuming a major making major decisions. And so land is, and you could you do fund them and the community board level, very, very active, online used to develop relationships. And I think some of the successful organizations, grassroots groups around the city have been started by women, and a lot of it has been around issues of development and land use, which also takes a society issues. So I guess it would take more time to really specifically answer and to your question on what we should be studying. But we certainly need a lot more in the way of community organizing resources. Unknown Speaker 1:16:12 If you want to know what their policies are for women, Unknown Speaker 1:16:17 and organizing Unknown Speaker 1:16:19 and struggling, since they just find a solution average and secure. Unknown Speaker 1:16:33 How can you reach out Unknown Speaker 1:16:36 and find an agenda, and they will reach out because they feel that we should be discussing risk. Unknown Speaker 1:16:46 So but they're not willing to go out there when struggles are going on. Unknown Speaker 1:16:54 And allow for movement to be defined in terms of people's struggles. And I think that when I was talking earlier about this issue, particularly the struggles and sort of, you know, the particulars, unfortunately, that's part of the mass movement. Unknown Speaker 1:17:10 There's a said transformation of women's Unknown Speaker 1:17:12 lives unimportant. Unknown Speaker 1:17:14 We know all kinds of things are subject to change. Unknown Speaker 1:17:18 I know when I tried to leave the European countries, Unknown Speaker 1:17:21 literally, the anger, the rage, that may feel that you talking about Unknown Speaker 1:17:29 issues were more important thing. Unknown Speaker 1:17:33 What to do with the particulars of his own Unknown Speaker 1:17:36 own struggles, across this country Unknown Speaker 1:17:38 in a language that people use, and the language that the left side is right there like sports consciousness? Well, the reason Unknown Speaker 1:17:55 it speaks to this question, but I was I was going to ask about science and language of science. You mentioned several times in the presentation, meaning to get up to speed, you're mastering that body of information, which is technical and large. And one area of research that I know is going on, but certainly encourage them. Race to the greater movement and legitimacy is the coalition of women in science and girls in science. What makes girls interested in this interested in technical opportunities and seeing themselves in the world of science and even the most esoteric of wall theory feminist theory about philosophy, which is the issue of how science has been structured, to be alien to us imagination. I let go if you were to go into elementary school for me in a new location, and talk to girls about science or technical possibilities, so that they see real women talk with Unknown Speaker 1:19:13 you. You gonna do a No, I don't have time because you made your password. I think that's a very good idea. But not have it doesn't always also just say that. That is another role for academics. I think the question about was, you know, what, what other things could you be doing? And I think certainly there's that role of expanding the network of a potential so women coming into various fields, but also one thing I've done it makes me angry. I mean, I don't know if there are any professors or anything from here from Florida, but I'd like to now have a community meeting those areas have you ever gone to? And that's one way to start finding out what people are thinking and how and how you can really be of assistance. I think it's like it Unknown Speaker 1:20:16 talks about people showed up, when they know that it may not be the same again, this isn't a case Unknown Speaker 1:20:28 where it's unfortunate. In your organization's even just very different from one day conservation, like minus four to six week vacation, do you think that you can share the advantages of working together? There's no Unknown Speaker 1:21:03 way that are you and I have a similar agenda in terms of priorities. But there's no way there's anything on anyone else's agenda in terms of impact on us, and then we shouldn't be involved. Okay, if they're involved in wetlands, we've got to understand thanks for reprioritizing major funds from foundations and federal government in this country. So do we have to be involved in that agenda setting? Yes. But I think, perhaps more to the point. Just there's a whole range of policy issues craziness, why should we be involved in transportation and the MTA capital budget, because it's going to finally filter down to how much we make it understandable? And we'll look at some of those correlations. But that's really all has to do with, how much are we going to pay next year, the subway is being determined by how much they decide to spend on a highway in Long Island. It's determined by whether we decide that we're going to fix up highways, which encourages more cars, which deals with air pollution, I mean, all of these one decision leaves and has an impact on another area. So yes, I do think that we all have an agenda that we all need to have input into the planning. There aren't a whole lot of us to go around, there aren't a whole lot of people of color. There aren't a whole lot of women who are out there and interested and doing all these things to go around, right. And so that's the problem. And so yes, we have to prioritize in terms of where we'd like to be. But ideally, ideally, we should be sitting in and having a clip brought. Unknown Speaker 1:22:54 I would like to just take the opportunity to stay on the curve. By the hardware. Then fortunately, we shouldn't confuse environmental and environmental. They're quite separate issues that we'll dealt with. But there are, I think, really this important thing here, you already want to be able to separate justice issues with priorities. And things like preferences. And one of the things that the Eco feminist in Washington are dealing with was, which made it really are not necessarily racist or cultural or political. Unknown Speaker 1:23:41 Events are structured, and consistent. So one way it looks at that is to understand as I am, particularly when I'm working out issues, Unknown Speaker 1:23:54 when one comes to understand that environmental issues or social issues, you know, some of the issues of mitigating pollution have been isolated problems, by by spending money, and they are social issues and the political issues to deal with power and deal with decision making within society, because that's our perception, not just how you stand on money, and how decision making is made and who is at risk, who benefits? What are the costs, who's going to pay those costs, and so forth. These are long term decisions. And when one begins to understand, you're dealing not just with inborn racism and sexism, which is a cultural eternity that you're dealing with a character and industrial growth paradigm. You can dominate everyone for me carnedd nuclear industry and not never shut down a nuclear reactor situated in a wealthy community, like Westerns want us to understand that. Northern Ireland is genetic engineering and toxic waste dumps or even radiation or acid rain. No one has ever stopped those, but they also have to At the rich effect they affect everything in our lives and not to deny the fact that minority communities suffered multiple injustice. But if we tried to say simply come together on a very ad hoc basis and say Well Your days are your priorities and these are our you know white middle class priorities we're never gonna get anywhere the only way we will get somewhere so understanding the broader societal paradigm that requires the domination and oppression of all communities and all peoples of all colors and all sectors to to fulfill to fulfill that that industrial growth model and if those people happen to be black or or happened to be moving forward and so forth they'll do it but if they happen to be white middle class or wealthy they'll do it also. program Unknown Speaker 1:26:05 right now our Unknown Speaker 1:26:21 to digitally Unknown Speaker 1:26:21 get to work more women before serving it is time to not fall by the wayside all the way up at the same time we are encouraging the same wedding students to reach out to Unknown Speaker 1:27:02 the YWCA also on Twitter so, there is affordability work going on now in the process itself surprising that they are stepping back and I think most of us do they Unknown Speaker 1:27:42 do bring people into Unknown Speaker 1:27:43 coalition outreach in many ways to empower Unknown Speaker 1:27:54 themselves Unknown Speaker 1:27:56 when I go to national conferences only one and I know that it wasn't a healthy one to the other person because the Unknown Speaker 1:28:12 company didn't do the concept more so than that to be as happy as well as pretty. To six Unknown Speaker 1:28:45 is not for me Unknown Speaker 1:29:00 I was an English major writer and I tried to get my daughter pushed in that direction and her father's an engineering major a man Unknown Speaker 1:29:17 I want to speak directly to the whole new way of looking at our community struggle with trying to get focused and the relationship between white collar college people typically struggle in the 60s I I think I mean, I think college some people are systematically discouraged from making any kinds of connections that that return to that. And I think I I organized around that because that was a person who was giving a full generic social wage job in the poverty program. I was told to go to school As to be writing this book as vocational goals for black high school. And I thought that was a great idea and asking for out in the European Union's and interview places where they could work and interview them. And I would be doing something very, very creative. And that, and I would also be doing something that I needed to do, which was to break down the systematic separation, part of my socialization. And I have been great. And the director of the project, which was University minister came on say, oh, no, we're not going to do that. We're going to rewrite the Dictionary of Occupational, the Labor Department's, you know, occupational handbook is simple manipulation. So it was like, and I tried to organize it. In my workplace, it's like, look, this is what's happening, where and also we were writing about trades, which I knew at that time were racist. So I was lying and manipulating to these kids. And it was the exact opposite of my, my very human impulse. And, and I think, also, the same thing happened in New York, when I was in business in a radical community, where I was working for a think tank. So we had a community component, and the people who were in the think tank, we were all educated, white female, class, background, and we were supposed to write this paper generated by this guy, you know, his ideas. He would be the ideas. We were supposed to write the papers, I was added to newsletter, and then this other component was community oriented. And we and I led the struggle to to to increase those divisions. You're right