Unknown Speaker  00:50
We all and right now, my name is Tyler, Bill Jones. And you want to just go around again Barbara My name is Kate. Student when I was in the process of deal was basically fatiguing the program in a way that been put together. And, you know, calling into question, you know who is who is here speaking. And the underlying assumption, I don't know if he was here this morning. But basically I was saying how, you know, you have this juxtaposition of speakers, and the only thing that they really have in common is that they're women, that there was no attempt to have any kind of like Unity, based along ideological lines, or any kind of theme that was, you know, running throughout the workshops. And I was also talking about the credentials of the people that are on the, we're leading the discussions. And that, you know, it was no attempt to incorporate community activist, so workers and have their point of view brought across, which is, you know, I mean, sort of furthering beyond the elitism, it's inclusive in most academic institutions. So, um, I just wanted to, you know, throw that out. And, you know, like I said, I want to question what is the responsibility of an academic institution like this, and to what extent, if any, does an all women's college differ in its thrust from a lot more, both of them should have become the perpetuators of the status quo, in no way provide any kinds of means of questioning? And, um, you know, I mean, I think that the conch, I think developed sort of like plays into establishing basically a political consciousness among the people that attend these institutions. Because, you know, we have, like I said, we are locally in Holland here, foreigners, but it's a very low turnout by black and although we call it and it's not only that their perspective is listening, like their body, the physical bodies are missing, but also in this whole area, it's been so gentrified, that, you know, basically, people don't even come in contact with black people at all. And the only context they do even though, you know, they're surrounded, I mean, the people that work here at this institution, or primarily black and Latino, working class and service capacities, but people just sort of walk by them and take them for granted. Like they do the show with Not, not even bother, but like, say hi to them. And then you see people on the street. You know, a lot of times there's women out there with the family. So it was a single mother with two children going to the subway cars, you don't ask me for money, you know, and that's the kind of like perceptions that people develop about black people, and the kind of limited interaction. That that sort of brings me to this whole

Unknown Speaker  04:07
notion to

Unknown Speaker  04:09
have like, the concept, the new vote concept was the feminization of poverty, which of course, you know, is not a new concept or a phenomenon that women of color have always been poor. But now that you find it, the divorce rate is increasing among the middle class, all of a sudden, start this new phenomenon is coined a lot. And this is attention being focused on it. So I just I just thought it was important as an organizer, and as someone who, you know, has organized conferences, myself to sort of like share my observations about how I would have organized this conference and I would have done a little bit differently. And the kinds of things that I think it's important for people to be sensitive to. Like I said, before you came in I've done Organizing within all black coalition's and multiracial coalition's and I just wanted to bring up very briefly what I think some of the issues are facing the challenges facing people who do organizing within multiracial coalition. I think the question of power is a key one, I think that we have to define and understand what we mean by black leadership, the black leadership is not just a black face in the position. But it's a perspective. And it's an identification with the oppression and understanding of that experience that comes from first the firsthand because as victims of racism, we bring to any struggle, or experience and I think that that experience then sets the tone for any organization that we're a part of. So therefore, I feel it is very important for organizations as particularly ones which are struggling against racism or apartheid, to have black leadership. I think that the other thing that comes into force, too, is that because there's a lot of debate, often about separate organizations versus multiracial organization, and I think in a way, it's sort of a false dichotomy that's set up that either you work in multiracial coalition's, or you work in separate organizations. And I think that there is a place and the significance for both, and I think they both have to exist. But oftentimes, you find people who example who work in all like, let's say, black coalition's just totally disregarding the significance of working within multiracial coalition's one of the reasons why I think that multiracial coalition's are important is because I feel that in order to be able to be successful, and you've ever had to struggle in this country, you're going to have to have the participation of whites, and, and, of course, other people of color. But along those lines, too, I think that one has to define what the role is that whites will play, playing, struggling develop some sort of structure within your organization, which becomes a representative of the ideology that you're espousing. I think that separate organizations, all white organizations were referring to, in particular, if you just tell whites going organized among yourself, you're failing to address the issue of power, you're failing to address the issue of who by and large has the better resources, or let's say, the access to better resources. And I think that, you know, it's important to make white students feel number one, that they have something involved in their struggle against racism, this is not just a charity thing. It's not something just based on my moral position, you know, they should get involved on begin because they feel guilty, but because they're fundamentally committed to changing the structure, and organization of the society, that they see injustice in the society and aren't just along racial lines, but also along a class line. For me, for example, as a black person, I would be no more satisfied that, you know, if this society today, if white people and black people were reversed in their situation in this society, because that still to me, there would be oppression, you know, and it's just who was getting oppressed. So I also I relate to not only on racial lines, but class lines and internalized oppression. Through those filters, like I said, I think that multiracial organizations allow for a structural context in which racism is analyzed,

Unknown Speaker  08:56
am confronted, as opposed to an all white organization, where basically racism then becomes relatively relegated to some sort of abstraction. You know, I think also that this idea that whites can lead an anti racist struggle sort of plays into this paternalistic view that whites aren't in any position to educate other people without having been directed, or receiving leadership from black people about about racism, you know, and to me, that's a that's a pretty ludicrous idea. I don't think that one develops a consciousness about racism merely from reading, because we have found, you know, in our organization, especially, I mean, you have people who think they have some sort of theoretical understanding, but then when it comes to racism, you know, on a personal level, you know, that's rampid, you know, but they're not aware of it, you know, and I think that that's something so anyway, those are basically some of the things that I wanted to throw out there and things that we should, we should think about

Unknown Speaker  10:03
Okay, basically, my name is Benson I know that shows the program. And basically, I would like just to give a brief background on a student from South Africa, and I organized the tune student level community lab. And the basic theme that I think is important, to me, it always has been is that the students need to understand they can organize on their own. And I see that, that here, they have student organizers. I don't believe that students belong to campuses, I think they're part of the community, there's a larger community outside, maybe they need to be a part of, and more often than not, you'll find students sort of divorcing themselves from larger issues, that concern that they look at them as if they belong to them. And I am one of the people who get who is guilty of the same thing. And I'm sure a lot of us are guilty of that, because we tend to talk in terms of them in us. And I think that needs to be eliminated. And so coming in South Africa, I worked in, in within Student ranks, where the black students organized on their own. Because of the situation we had to organize on campuses, because that's where we were there, you were not allowed to interact with a student and our group of students, we came out of the black consciousness movement, and which meant that there was there had already been a break between the the black and white student coalition, based on the fact that the white students talk about the need to end racism by not making a concerted effort to actually end. And there's a very good example that I always use, the white students at the University of Nottingham formed this group of organization, which was Mother Teresa, or I don't know whether it was motivation or not. But we're different races. The reason why I don't want to say multiracial, the one that made many blacks and whites. So they went to the they had a conference, a conference at the University of Rhodes University, which is another way to invest in the white to new white students left with the black students from the investor of Nata, from segregated sort of dorms to the University of Rhodes University, not letting them know that we are going to be accommodated on campus with all the other students, we're going to dump you in some as a church, these were students who felt that they lived in the same principle, who talk against racism on a daily basis to those kinds of things, those are the little things that really important. And I think those are the things that we need to move. And coming to Columbia, I found myself involved in the Coalition for a free South Southern Africa, which to me still has a place somewhere in my student activism, organized, and whether were black and whites to meet, and we had a series of problems with white students, black students, not really being on the same, operating from the same wavelength. And the issue that Tony talked about in terms of leadership, who should be in leadership, in terms of the anti apartheid movement, or the struggle against racism, I basically believe that what you said is very, very crucial. And I think it's the biggest problem. That's why I asked you about that, because I didn't even know that there's been a part of movement going on in practice, because there was a huge split. And I don't know if it was healed. I don't know who's organizing now because the white students that they needed to organize it and the black students, they needed to organize it. But I think at Columbia it was thought of because the white student understood and after a series, I don't know if we will fully understand both groups. But we've come to a realization that, you know, it is the truth, and you need to understand why it is necessary for the black students to be lynched because of the constant denial or self determination for black people. All over the world, wherever they are, whatever, if they are says, quote unquote, free, they always have Britain and the United States hanging up as being very, very people ruling them. So they're never free to rule themselves. So that's the way I look at it, there are no black people anywhere in this world higher guidance. I think if they are, they have some kind of illusion that we are holding. The fact that they depend on the west or the east, makes them bound to those leaders about. So I also now am involved with student organizing of the black student. And I think it's very important that I explained why it happened. We were at a conference at at Hunter College. And the black student, there was a problem just like this one, when I looked at it, it reminded me of the Student Conference, where there were issues about South Africa. But nothing was talked about in terms of racism, that seemed to be the inherent problem everywhere throughout the country. And nothing was decided by, by black students, the white student were in total control of everything. And a CEO a was also in control. They set out the agenda and everything and he started questioning as black students like is that we don't have the room in this whole conference. And we decided we're going to have

Unknown Speaker  16:31
it at Black Caucus. Still, when we asked them before the conference, because they send us the program send us the program before the day, when we ask for a day this allotted us during dinner time, it's like no one else, it doesn't matter, they had to be some you had to find some time for you, which we thought was really a little bit presumptuous for each way they should have made a slot or had a workshop on racism, that was going to give us a chance to talk about the things that we thought were wrong. So we had that, that caucus, which indeed, gave birth to the national National African youth Student Alliance, which are in a panel. And basically, the students are trying to the black students trying to grapple with the problems that they find on black on black or white campuses in the community. And our main thing is to go and work within the community. And we I basically feel that the people in the community would react much, much more differently, if I talk to them than if you talk to them. Because the society is so polarized, to the extent that there is no direct interaction that Tucker was talking about here on campus, we go to call coalition meetings, we are there for two hours, when we meet in the streets, we don't talk, okay, we don't greet each other, the white students, and the black student and this I've seen it in in my classrooms, we are with students, we have a project we work together, when we meet in the in the hallways, we don't talk to each other. So there's no direct interactions, the Black Student even find that that thing translated among themselves, the Black Student don't even talk. So what's going on? We need to look at those problems as to why is it that the black and white students cannot talk? How can we expect a miracle of them being able to organize when they can't even, maybe, in my opinion, if the black student came together and try to thresh out where they are common problems? Right, there will be some kind of an example. And I find it very difficult to understand people will feel that white black student cannot come together in each and every campus has been the list of black student organizations. That's why I think there's a need, there's a basic need for the black students to come across and understand their basic history, things that they have in common, because a lot of us having been taught anything that has something to do with our, our background, wherever will be, and I'm talking about South Africa, as the curriculum has been, has been Eurocentric, most of the things have nothing. We have no black images that are positive. They do not portray anything about black people that is positive and we need to come together and thrash it out. And I think that's why we chose to go and work into the community in the community and addressing the problems that seem to bother the black people within the community and form a core group of people who will be willing to work in saying threads are organized around around the community, black community and come out with a core group of people who who willing to set up programs that will sled press out the problems that I think the white establishment failed to connect. And that is, is the truth. And in terms of student organizing, I think that the students need to understand that the struggle doesn't start when I come to college. And if it took that up until that time for me to be a student activism, it shouldn't end after four years, or up to six years, it has to go beyond

Unknown Speaker  20:43
beyond that, that period. And also, if there are problems that make student activism, for instance, anti apartheid, it shouldn't be a seasonal kind of programming. It shouldn't be a fair, it shouldn't be involved, it should be something that teaches us that can be used to teach us to look at in Heron problems that confront us, which stemmed out of institutionalized racism, because as far as I'm concerned, it is not just racism in history, it is institutionalized racism that has that has to do with the mind, mind that has been been distorted from what when one has been that smoke, and that goes for both black and white, the whites have been taught that they are superior, and the blacks have been taught that they are inferior, within we need to get out of that kind of thinking, and see if we can, we can work this out for a better society. And I don't know if I agree with you, in terms of why not being able to work in their communities, I basically believe it's very, very important for whites to feel that their conscious is not and they've conquered their racism to be role models, and come up with programs that can be used in white communities, and try to, to Constantine, the young white student, because whether we like it or not. In South Africa, we have segregated it segregated by law. But here, I still find the communities segregated, whether we like it or not, the white students live in white communities and the black students within black community. If that that wasn't the case, we'll use cases like Howard Beach, for instance, we wouldn't have Westchester County, which is almost mainly white. So I think, whether we like it or not, if the black, white students have to work in black communities, they have to travel from their communities, to the black community, and they will be regarded as aliens. And the black students, if they were to work, go and work in white communities, they will be regarded as alien. So we need to understand why there was such a problem and how can you combat it? And maybe just to clarify

Unknown Speaker  23:02
my point, I didn't say that white shouldn't organize it really, it really is I said that I think that they should, but they have to get the direction and leadership from blacks, in order to do in order to be able to do that

Unknown Speaker  23:15
they can't just by themselves decide that they're gonna go out and educate people about racism, and they haven't really had an opportunity to be in any kind of organization, which

Unknown Speaker  23:25
made him personally confront their own lens.

Unknown Speaker  23:28
Okay, which brings me to my closing remarks. My basic feeling, I basically feel that there are a lot of people of color in this country who have subjugated who are being oppressed, who have no power, they are powerless, just like a black leaders. And I think I am not best qualified to organize within the Latin Latino community, because of institutionalized racism, we have been demarcated. Okay. And if there is a good Latino role model, I think we can organize better. And I think the white if the whites and the blacks and Latinos and everybody worked vigorously to eradicate racism in our communities where we find ourselves, and then later on more later on, after we build organizations, and we are strong enough to come into coalition, that is the only time that I think coalition's will work, if we come on with God, in my opinion, from experience, if we come up, not understanding, and I can buy what I'm saying, maybe we can be able to share things. But this has to be internal. And I think it has to be passed on. People need to understand that there's something wrong, because there are people who will talk about racism in South Africa and not want to deal with the racism in the United States. And then that means that they basically feel that since we have the Declaration of Independence and that constitution, there are no problems in the United States or maybe they will just dismiss them and say we have some problems but they're not that Okay, and that means has to deal with the problem. And I think the students can help. Because we are congregated. We are a lot of campuses at one stage or another, or at any stage or another. So we need to use that as a springboard to deal with the problems that are there. Otherwise, coalition's we'll be using. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker  25:25
Okay. I'm trying to edit out some of the things that have already been said before, because he's also sort of a

Unknown Speaker  25:32
I mean, there seems to be only six of us. And maybe,

Unknown Speaker  25:35
I mean, I don't mind if people jumped in yet. I mean, I did you have a question? Oh. Okay, well, let me just introduce myself. I'm from University of Michigan, I'm registered in the history department, I teach women's studies in American history, from the student and a teacher. I grew up in a black community in Detroit, started doing political work is th and so protests in 1314 Different kinds of anti racist, beautiful work was recently awarded to South African. So I sort of want to frame my approach to the workshop, which is to say, you know, I guess maybe we should have done it, you know, as I think maybe who had advertised the workshop differently, might have gotten more. Yeah, because it's sort of it says doing organizing, really, what we're talking about is, I mean, all three of us are talking about problems of racism within a larger movement probably should have said that, you know, racism within the movement or something, because that is part of what I want. And the way I see it connected is, you know, I mean, that has historically been one of the the issues that are divided progressively, you know, racism, how people should organize, you know, whether people should organize separately or coalition's problems within coalition's problems with organizing separately, often, you know, all these issues, which we're addressing. So that's why we see is connected, and it's also trapped within the women's movements, very big. demonstrated today. So that's why racism is a big issue in case anybody was injured. And the other thing, which we've already talked about as part of understanding, a black feminist perspective, is understanding a holistic approach for depression. I think black women, in particular have been asked by various groups of allies, to dissect our oppression, you know, you're either black or you are a woman, or you're a worker. And, you know, part of I think usefulness in some bell hooks is more recent work, although earlier work is troublesome, is that, you know, she tries to suggest, and that gets, we get back to this coalition versus sympathy. But she tried to suggest that black women, that experience is so important that black women are not only important as leaders of the black community, but the entire community because once you sort of like that Gil Scott Heron album, had once this group start asking for freedom, and once his group starts asking for freedom, pretty soon the whole damn world the African freedom. And one of the things which is a source of both strength and frustration, you know, for black women in this country is that we embody, you know, so many levels of oppression in the society, economic oppression, racial oppression, gender oppression, that once black women start to put their issue and their analysis on the table, you really are talking about a revolutionary agenda, and you're talking about radically changing society. And I think that's something that not only the black community has to come to grips with, but anybody calling themselves agents of social change, you have to look to that, within our experience as oppressed people, there was such a large agenda, that if we really do our work in terms of analyzing that oppression, you know, we're talking about something that will fundamentally change the society we live in. So I think that there are people who haven't had that experience, um, if they only try to define their own oppression, or their support of that, that we do have the, you know, the likelihood of falling into even missionaries for a very limited agenda, if it's only a white women's movement, and you know, the week that's a meet common denominator phenomena where you have, well, we're all oppressed by race races and oppressive, you know, issue of oppression for all women. So that becomes the key issue, as opposed to having another quote that says, look at most oppressed groups for a genuine agenda for liberation, which means you got to improve a lot of other issues. So when you start talking about including black women, it doesn't just mean you know, those those things that are common to black and white means it means a total agenda for that most impressive

Unknown Speaker  29:50
and it gets difficult, scary

Unknown Speaker  29:53
for some people, but I think that's the that's the important challenge. So that's just, you know, sort of where you coming from there. So with that approach in mind, I just want to say some specific things. But what I think's going on with campuses now, you know, I think we, you know, we've seen a genuine right wing trend in the country, which is characterized by three things which, which historically moves toward fascism, which is the happening, I see fascism and other forms of government, it's really being on a continuum, we can have more or less features of, at any point in time, but to move toward fascism, which is characterized by increased racism, increasing militarism, and increase misogyny. We see a right to life movement talking about, you know, reproductive rights for women. At the same time, you know, increasing the military budget, and justifying legitimizing violent racist attacks on people of color throughout the country. That's an issue that is reflected on the campuses as well increased racial attacks on campus. Erosion are students of color X access to campuses. And also attacks on investments on campus and increased military budgets on campus. More and more money going toward the military, as opposed to the most needy groups on campus. And so, you know, so So, so the kinds of unfortunately, the kinds of movements that have developed have been sort of single issue, movement, and, you know, either a very narrow definition of racism, or a very narrow definition of sexism, or a very narrow definition of the peace movement and anti war stuff. And I think, you know, when we do start to look to the most oppressed as leaders of the entire movement, you know, we get, you know, we get beyond these narrow single issue kinds of campaigns. We have to, and I think, also, it's important to say, you know, in the same vein that I think, you know, I don't believe that I don't believe that every woman is my sister. You know, I just don't and, you know, along the same lines, I don't think that every black man is my brother. I mean, Clarence Pendleton, for example. You know, I mean, you know, we have to base our politics on Atlanta Pendleton's great conservative, black man Reagan Administration, has been

Unknown Speaker  32:33
personified sellout for the black community. I mean, we see that phenomena in South Africa and other places. So our genes don't, you know, our politics are in our heads and our Nigerians struggle constantly, you know, around that issue, I think. So, in fact that, you know, the easiest person to get to sort of spy or sell sell out is, you know, him in a women's conference, you know, a radical feminist perspective coming from a woman, you're not gonna have a man come in and give it to you think we have to get beyond these narrow single issues. But I think that doesn't take women of color, again, out of central focus, like, I don't think, for example, it's narrower to say that the liberation of women of color has to be central to any progressive student movement. I don't think people say, Well, that's a special interest in the minority group, a real minority group. But I think, again, you know, back to the whole notion that if you get to the root of the problem, you know, everything layered on top of that is going to have to be challenged. That that, you know, we can see that as being central. So, so, so in that context of black feminist theory, of social change and of liberation, I think is key, both for students and others. So, you know, and then I just want to talk about some other specific things on campus in terms of hierarchies on campus and how we divide ourselves. I think another thing that can be learned from an afro centric approach to teaching and learning and would move us toward a genuinely a genuine sort of pedagogy of liberation, feminism, pedagogy, and ended up fitting, you know, that is, you know, an approach to knowledge and an approach to learning which is

Unknown Speaker  34:21
fundamentally

Unknown Speaker  34:23
liberating, is that we stopped dichotomizing Our roles, I think we're all teachers and students. But what we have on the campus we have students organizing here, the teachers coming in for the teachings and the experts. Where's the black community has always been a give and take between children, for example, to go with a chance to go to school, coming home and teaching grandparents how to read at night, but never challenging the authority or the wisdom of those grandparents at the same time. So being a teacher doesn't mean the more powerful. So I think, you know, breaking down those barriers are very concepts of knowledge, knowledge acquisition. Shouldn't elitist institution has to be changed? And also, you know, just like me think Mercy has touched upon too much where we see the credentials, like, why is it that I mean, if you live in a racist society, why is it that people with PhDs are the only people who have the credentials to teach I mean, there's women in the community who have experiences that students at Barnard command a tremendous amount from those people aren't brought in, you know, women's caucuses on campus and fight the struggle in Michigan, they're, you know, don't think of including issues that are of concern to the women who clean up those offices, you know, who really again, you're talking to best the most oppressed group on campus? You know, it's not whether, you know, you know, it's not whether you have three or four Women's Studies courses, which is really the key issue, causing suffering for women, although it is an important issue, you know, you have women who are trying to, you know, support for kids on $10,000 A year No, no health benefits, I mean, compassion for women needs compassion for that kind of stuff. So breaking down those barriers and thinking of not organizing just within comfortable middle class and flexible circles, but just get

Unknown Speaker  36:11
so,

Unknown Speaker  36:14
okay, so at the same time, I think, you know, despite all these problems, I think there are, there is a real potential to organize a progressive student movement, you know, keep certain lessons in mind in the past. I think the anti apartheid movement generated a lot of energy among students, upsurge in racist attacks recently has elicited and militant serious response ticularly from the black community. And, you know, I think, well, in Michigan, you had a woman come and talk about black feminist theory, he had a room for about 50 people. And we moved from auditorium, because I mean, there's just this, this hunger for a real synthesis of these various models of oppression. So I think, you know, there's reasons for optimism. And I also think, again, you know, we talked about who's going to lead, you know, the people who I mean, I think if people like my grandmother, who never learned to read, very oppressed, in many ways, she never had the luxury to be cynical. I mean, you know, you see, the sort of leftover activists from the 60s will now have comfortable godness cynical, I mean, you know, if you, you know, I mean, if you have a society is basically trying to destroy you. I mean, cynicism is a luxury, you got to be activists, on just about every level of your life. So I think that's something else and embodied in the experience of black people and black women in this country is a certain resilience that allows one to bounce back from the feet, and allows ones to Persevere, persevere at times when things don't look so wonderful. So that's another thing about that leadership that comes from an experience of oppression. So obviously, you know, so I'm optimistic. And I think there's things that could be done, just to sort of enumerate those are the main discussion. I think, you know, the importance, the importance of black and third for leadership is critical. We, you know, we don't think of a women's movement led by men sort of think of our anti racist movement, or even a progressive movement, not led by those people who are the fundamental victims of oppression in this kind of society. So, you know, so I think that's important. And I also think, though, I think that multiracial movement and coalition's aren't that important. Now, you know, I mean, in a different context, I think you have to, you have to examine whatever local situation you find yourself in whether it's feasible. I mean, on some campuses, maybe it's not feasible, given a political history in some communities. But I find in a number of situations, I've been in it, isn't that possible and feasible? And I think I find some sort of arrogance, and some white activists who will support sort of, you know, will support separate organizing from a distance because although on on a certain level, they're organizing within their communities. You know, they haven't taken the leadership from the people who really have the seat, you know, the source of the answer, I think, you know, and so, you know, I think there needs to be those role models, but I think, probably really content racism needs to challenge those people to also accept black women as role models. And when you start to do that, if that's possible. You know, I think some things really start to break down, because I've seen all white organizations. I'll mentioned, the National Lawyers Guild, which considers itself a radical organization, on certain levels, and it supports, you know, separate organizing, but it's so comfortable with white male leadership is like, oh, yeah, please, you know, don't you know, it's sort of, you know, don't come into our organization and command and be leaders. We can support you from afar. You You know, when people say this thing about what you have your own house, you know, it's like it's a quite organization set up like this coming in, it's always in your heart. And that's the problem, I think. So there's always a need for new formations for that reason. So I think that black people have to initiate those things. The other hand, somebody comes into your house, and they just sort of find a little niche, that's one thing and you're still in control. They come in and they start changing, sit around and like knocking down walls and creating these rooms. And, you know, really making the whole architecture different than that's something else. And I think so it means white people giving up to power, which I think I think we have

Unknown Speaker  40:45
to make them. Yeah, it becomes getting off the hook, I think, in a way otherwise, anyway. So the other thing is, I think they have to be student student work reliance is to break down that elitism. And it has to be a feminist agenda within both black organizations and multiracial coalition. So I think, for example, if we had a Fannie Lou Hamer, or Ella Baker, leading the Civil Rights Movement slash, the early part of the black liberation movement, I think there were to the significant phases, I think that movement would have gotten more radical quicker than that. And what else? Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much it. And we have to get beyond the sort of single issue politics and really think, much more broader in terms of challenging structures, and not just, you know, faces and facade. So once we start to push for those things, I don't know, I mean, I think you're never gonna win everybody to know that, you know, but if you try to win a core, I mean, even at the height of any revolution, the majority of people are not determining the agenda, it's always a core, so you can win up for people to that, and a larger number to accepting certain levels of

Unknown Speaker  41:59
contention for

Unknown Speaker  42:05
that was a little scattered.

Unknown Speaker  42:07
Maybe just, and I think that's a very important point. Because when I talk about any kinds of feminism within the black community, they look at it as white. They don't want to deal with it, because they basically believe that it's an extension of racism, the white feminist look at them as as it pertains to them, and they will not look at it beyond anything like I always give the example. They they're trying to fight to get 100,000, white male counterparts making and then the black woman is trying to pay to get a job. So how can they they they sort of sit on the same table discuss the same issues when their agendas. So maybe that's what is important in your presentation that we need to look at, we need to look at the lowest common denominator, but the whole that's all saying like, I just started the transcript. And one of the biggest issues a lot of propaganda, racism. And just last week, Audrey Lorde came

Unknown Speaker  43:35
the lecture and then a workshop, of which I was, and she started after lecture, saying on Firefox to white people about racism a lot, and that's why she asked to come. So, I mean, that's okay. That's an attitude. But I can understand that that's back and put it into perspective. And, and that's fine. Right. Some point, I think, what people have to do, you have to go out and make some sort of an effort to understand because we'll never experience a black person's experience. But then what I think you said, is that you want that we need that white canvas out and organize themselves towards racism. And so I mean, another table and we have various programs, one of which is racial awareness, workshops that are required of all the houses

Unknown Speaker  44:48
really had one of our demands. Now,

Unknown Speaker  44:51
there. We haven't had one in my house yet this year, but it should be coming up sometime soon. And I know from the other workshop, we have left the awareness workshop Often you have regular workshops, and they're really good. And so I would imagine that the race, racial awareness, or Yeah, well, that's my this is my point. Yes, they are. And I asked in this neck came up in the workshop, and I asked for so somehow it came up, somebody said, Why aren't there white people doing it? If you're talking? We have 82. Okay. I think the number is 82 Black students. We have, we have 8%. Minorities. Okay, that that's just the problem itself. They're easy to know. Okay, so that's like,

Unknown Speaker  45:48
the last time I went to sleep, there were fewer than that.

Unknown Speaker  45:51
Right? That's, that's a real problem, which is, but what I'm saying is they did this workshop I said, or somebody said, I can't remember. There was that, why weren't there? If you're saying us, women of color in the group, were saying to white women, and minorities saying the white women? Why don't you go out and educate yourself? Why we're 30 white women doing racial awareness workshops. And because I will be more than happy to, I would like to next that it's against the system, that our system doesn't allow it. But what system Smith College system is based on student government, units to students governance. And so it's against this. I mean, how do you feel about having white students doing Rachel Lauren for shops?

Unknown Speaker  46:40
And then how do you feel about

Unknown Speaker  46:44
if you don't want them to the walk point? I mean, again, when I get back after spring break, a friend of mine and I are starting a white awareness, white, white racial awareness discussion, because there's such conflict in animosity between very few black students and the very large boys. But that's not the answer. What is the racket something like this? How are students from my perspective? So into a campus where last year writing nasty things on the bathroom door?

Unknown Speaker  47:23
I mean, you have a problem. And it seems like such a waste of our energy, we should get over it, we should we should come together and do something else. I don't know, project all our get rid of our conflict as a small, small environment, and get our energies together and go somewhere else with it.

Unknown Speaker  47:49
But I don't think that the solution is in first of all, I have no like one set lack of what is the correct way to organize it? Neither is that. So you know,

Unknown Speaker  48:06
I know, I'm just asking your opinion not. So

Unknown Speaker  48:08
I'm just saying though, that I think I mean, I would do all the things I can

Unknown Speaker  48:17
I think the racial awareness. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  48:22
Because I'm not saying that, that whites couldn't in some juncture. Oftentimes, I mean, it's really hard to have this necessary. expertise. I think one of the most important things that happened during

Unknown Speaker  48:44
a lot of students

Unknown Speaker  48:45
here at Columbia, is that almost

Unknown Speaker  48:48
95% of the speakers.

Unknown Speaker  48:49
And I was the first time that a lot of white students who went to the

Unknown Speaker  48:56
school act listened to,

Unknown Speaker  49:00
you know, and I think that, you know, enforcement. So I think it's important to do that, for that reason to just to, you know, because I don't think there's that many opportunities for blacks to voice their opinions and have your opinions listened to and certainly, you know, so I think that you were probably not burdened by French. But I think that's important. But on the other hand, I think that, like the difficulties, you're having the blind students, I think there's a group of women who have some timeframes. It should try to come to an understanding of what is it that the black women, not to say they shouldn't have happened by themselves? I think we should, but I think you also have to make an African try to understand what it is is bothering them and how you can restructure the organization in some kind of way or we define things so that there can be participation by black and white white people, what I found, though a lot of times, it's even like an orange, you know, like, in order, let's say you're in a group of people, and we'd have a conference talking specifically about racism,

Unknown Speaker  50:14
and then you get with the students, and they think that so you may think you never have a

Unknown Speaker  50:20
valid, but that's not really do not, can't assess that independently that has to come also from Why do black with black people feel is you can't see the level of consciousness or about your own racism, because, you know, it's just like with men, I mean, men are really amazing ecosystem is in hand. And we have to struggle all your life as a man to remove yourself from it. And I think we aren't able to. So I just think that people, you know, like I said, I think that you should try to find out what the difficulties are. And then, you know, like, I was gonna say that we've been a lot of conferences, why students and that evening, people who consider themselves really aware, or not able to come to grips with will accept legitimate criticism of their own way, we will be there as black students telling them what we feel is racist, and they will be get very, very defensive.

Unknown Speaker  51:16
You know, because it's painful, but it may be painful

Unknown Speaker  51:20
to hear it. But it's more painful for black people who are actually dying as a consequence of racism, you know, people I don't think, really have an understanding of that, really understand the kind of relentless onslaught of racism that people of color have to go from. Day in and day out, it's a one week, a white person can decide to deal with racism or more doesn't have to deal with racism. Black people do not have that. They have to, and I think that if there's that kind of understanding and willingness to understand the kind of business that can be, you know, like I said, we've been a lot of times to get offensive defensive. But even some of the organizers there who have been organized before, won't even intercede and say, look, as a white person who's been involved me struggling for a long time, I, you know, let me try to bridge some of the gaps. They'll sit there quietly, because they get feel a debris and they don't think

Unknown Speaker  52:24
easy answer is there. A lot, because basically, you find that I went to St. Lawrence, they have had the same problem that you have seen. And on the day I spoke, everything just sort of popped up. Because I gave them the scenario of Colombia, and bring up the coalition, every student group that is not based on race. Okay. So unfortunately, they never communicated. There was no trust, no understanding of basic points of departure. And all of the stuff, I've made them understand that not only their problem, but it's a globe, we need to understand, we need to know that we cannot just work for coalition, but not on an ongoing process. Because

Unknown Speaker  53:22
I want, I want I need to

Unknown Speaker  53:24
understand that I can trust that there's a basic understanding that you can deal with pieces, not just this, but on different

Unknown Speaker  53:38
Yeah, I was just thinking that, you know, we'll kind of kill and we're talking, you know, when you think of C, I think he was at the top of what we're talking about, I think we can't be too simplistic about, you know, I mean, when you say black people should give leadership, it doesn't mean that why people shouldn't do, you know, doesn't mean people should just sit and so I think that right can't be passive about so I started situation, thinking might be okay for white person to lead a discussion on racism or something like that. We talked about Allah, but then we're talking about a movement that is the leg work of implementing movements, leading discussions, is giving talks, doing all these things. And I think white people have to do those things. When we're talking in the bigger sense about building a movement, where should the direction of leadership and I think if you don't have some kind of ongoing coalition work and organizational work that involves that brings white people into contact with black leaders, that two problems develop. One is that you have to the reality is if you have on a campus, that white students trying to organize races, they don't have like, we can have a white lead, that's going to be the one that's going to get the media coverage to get the recognition from administration. So so so so I don't think you know, so I think that within that there has to be black leadership. So that makes it multiracial. And then the other thing that happens, you know, is that that part of Understanding racism is not just the display, you know, it's not just talking theoretically about things, giving. It's giving up privilege and power and turning the tables and saying that because the society says we're supposed to be at the center of everything, you know, as progressives and people who want social change, we're going to reverse that. And we're going to say, let another experience be at the center, because, you know, if these are the people who are in the margins, because of oppression, they have to be at the center in terms of liberation. So it's teaching black and white people through work, that, you know, white supremacy is not something that could have any way, be a part of the consciousness of the progressive. So it means, you know, so I mean, I think you'd have to, you know, especially right, you know, in and of itself, that's fine. You know, if there's, what if you didn't have any black people on campus, then somebody would have to do it, right. I mean, like, you know, Denise's time when in South Africa, physically, people are separate. So what can you do? But as a principle, I think whenever possible, we have to strive to have that leadership.

Unknown Speaker  56:02
So that's another thing that I think we need to look at. Basically, the society is so structured, that way, we always tell black people what is wrong, then we will add the Roche's against it. When you have even if we know that is wrong with you, you have no right to tell us what is wrong with you, you have the right to explain why we feel it is wrong. Because it's not just enough. That's not there. What are you doing, about trying to fix it? And I know a lot of blacks just don't want to listen, when the white students take the challenge. They basically believe that they should come from them. And I feel the same way about South Africa. I basically believe that all my life, I've been told what is wrong and how we can

Unknown Speaker  56:50
fix it, how

Unknown Speaker  56:52
such reforms unnecessary, are basically thing that I can decide what is because I know the corner in my life, and I know why. Other than that, I

Unknown Speaker  57:07
think the student questions

Unknown Speaker  57:24
I mean, if you want to make the decision the other thing

Unknown Speaker  57:36
right. A lot of times like for example, let's say this whitening would

Unknown Speaker  57:48
instead of like

Unknown Speaker  57:49
organizing the cigar was really outrageous, why students and then going in my site and find out who the perpetrators are in complying with people just don't do anything so that people start saying what you really sincere.

Unknown Speaker  58:01
You know, what are you doing to show your outrage about NASCAR? I think a lot of that can rob a lot of problems.

Unknown Speaker  58:11
But I guess I will come to these for a lot of waiting. For quite a while. And I you know, I always have this particular display, one of the things I felt again this morning, and I'm glad that we talked about it, I'm sorry. Beginning of Your discussion was that there was an assumption of the audience being like academics or students

Unknown Speaker  58:55
very much is 25. Solid I

Unknown Speaker  59:00
don't even if people talk about what we use the word for talk about concretizing or whatever. Nevertheless, it seems to me there is this assumption of who the audience is. Nothing comes up about stuff. It's really studies.

Unknown Speaker  59:24
So feminism becomes

Unknown Speaker  59:26
Women's Studies.

Unknown Speaker  59:29
Right now.

Unknown Speaker  59:30
The thing is, I think I don't know what to say was because I don't want to talk is that something that's very much alive, however, maybe in the sense that we may not call themselves feminists who are using race, but they certainly are revolutionary. But it is it's, it's certainly at its best It was a revolutionary movement that was challenging. I also think in some ways the women's liberation movement in this country has really been stuck for quite a while. I mean, this question of having no relationship to work. You know, that's all fair. But the thing, I guess, one of the things I felt like waiting for braces ski racing was, for example, the question of relationship of members of an organization to the leadership organizations, how what form? What forms of organization? How should they be structured? In a sense, I felt like all of you were talking about organizing. But I think it's a really hard question. And I think this question of coalition's different movements, one of the things that happens is there is a break a break in the relationship with repeating these decisions so often, and whatever you want to call, rank and file. And I think that's really a problem. And I think it's a problem in revolutions.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:13
I think it's been a problem.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:16
Revolution. I, I'm, I work with a marketing team. So I have a particular use. Case, but I feel like it's hot. Like, it's very important. How? In other words, what does it mean, to say, to say, your corporation or sports to say that you're struggling against racism, insecurities, yourself to see that that means being revolutionary saying that you want? Nothing less? Like you said, switching roles? Or making an abstraction of unity of solidarity? So that questions of class members? Or whatever it is, what is the relationship to how you make decisions about what what relationships are? And where do your ideas come from? Where do principles come from? How do you proceed? How do you carry me? I feel like, in a sense, the same question that came up,

Unknown Speaker  1:02:30
in a sense.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:34
Also, I mean, I feel like so much is going on.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:36
Now, China and South Africa, and Mexico, are not an island.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:43
I think a lot of it does have to do South Africa, let's say there's a direct correlation, whether you say something's in the air, you know. So I guess I feel like reading these other things. And I'm being abstract. But I think it is a really important question that. In other words, it's not It can't just be hit or miss. I think it is something that people work out and of course, struggle, but I don't think it's just something, you know, like, the question of leadership, that certainly from what I've read, and in terms of all the information out there a lot of black leaders, people who present themselves as black and white, don't see.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:35
Being being Black doesn't mean that you automatically leadership is key. But it does mean, once you have the right set, never experienced the possible white person to sustain.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:50
Yeah, no, I'm not questioning. I'm questioning how the potential in other words, who gets it? I mean, is it on the basis? Is it is it on the basis of meaning? Is it on the basis of struggle? And what is your relationship? I think,

Unknown Speaker  1:04:16
because I think that presents a lot of leadership and can create a basis. So I think that's

Unknown Speaker  1:04:30
right. And what you see coming up,

Unknown Speaker  1:04:32
for instance, in New York City, is that the community is beginning to question if these leaders had a constituency that has something to do the pledge. And are they accountable to the pledge? I think more and more people are going to question as to if you are relieved or what have you done in the community? And have I have you? Have you really been worried for instance, have you being worried about the fact that there are poor people in Ireland and what have you done to alleviate that kind of thing? Have you really juxtapose them with the people who are living in midtown Manhattan, all those things are real and the very people who say that a leader will react to those things and there is a clear distinction of the haves and have nots. How do you reflect? Who really knocked the table for you and you listen to the poor or the elite? And why is that?

Unknown Speaker  1:05:46
Here before,

Unknown Speaker  1:05:47
I have to go to

Unknown Speaker  1:05:51
my studio presentation