Unknown Speaker 00:01 Okay. For those of you who came late, that's a film called Small happiness, which numbers of people have seen numbers of time, but some people hadn't seen it in at all. And since I brought it, we screen, if you have questions about the film, I'd be happy to talk about it. It's a film entirely, as you have seen, or remember consuming about a North China and village. So it's very specific to both of those facts that it's, it's rural, and is northern China and northern China, difference between North and South and center is tremendous. In fact, the differences among villages in any region is enormous. Despite the centralized nature of the state, and variety in China is it's more than almost any place on Earth so that what's true in one village, is often not true in the neighboring village by some margin. If you're giving a talk on China, and there are people who've been to China, in the audience, inevitably, after you say you for a certain someone will say that's not the way it was in my village. And it's true, and it wasn't. So to be quite specific, there are also general generalizations that can be made by the questions coming off the film on the fans to them before doing anything else. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 01:22 yeah. I have said some of the things about representation. One, well, I mean, yeah, not transparent. Obviously, somebody just didn't take a mirror and hold it up. I know, a lot of issues. Yeah, no good. How you decide to represent something, for instance, who did make it? I mean, what was their viewpoint? What Unknown Speaker 01:52 are the people who were there, two people who made it mainly plus an editor. And the editor had never been to China had no Chinese expertise at all. And that matters, because and it was the first thing he'd edited. So all of that does count the law. The the, the two people who made it were first of all, Carmen Hinton. Karma is the daughter of Bill Hinton, who was a guy who worked in China for UNRWA initially. And what for UNRWA, United Nations refugee and Rehabilitation Association, it was a kind of good guy left the organization right after the war, which was dissolved, I think, by 4748. or so billion to work in that he was married at the time to a woman named Bertha. While in China, Bertha gave birth to karma, Bill left China shortly thereafter, not to return in till the late 60s Or are actually 71. Karma grew up in China with a mother. She grew up speaking Chinese, that's her first language. She learned English later, she came to this country when she was 21 years old, with very poor English. And then went back to China with her father. Her mother remains in China, teaching us and the bulk of parents are American. She went back many times to this village, which is the village that Hinton wrote the book function about. Tibet chief son became known among non Chinese specialists as well. So she grew up totally within she grew up really as much as it's possible for a non Chinese to grow up Chinese she did, but always knowing also that she wasn't Chinese because she'd be reminded all the time. She told me that classmates would ask her they don't you? Don't you feel terrible? That you look like that? Because she looks entirely American. Her she had an IEP on nursemaid who would say to her, it's going to be okay, I could see eyes are changing. You know, as she ate warbirds the nurse really did think that she that she would develop Chinese characteristics. One of the reasons I think although comments ever said this, but I think at least one of the reasons that she left China is that marriage is the absolute norm. She couldn't get married there. Not that not not at that time, and even now, it'd be hard. So she grows up inside and outside and both things. The other thing that happened to calm is when she got through the states, which was in the early 70s feminism hit her like a ton of bricks she grew up during and her adolescence was entirely during the Cultural Revolution. The statement of the Cultural Revolution was if you try hard enough, you can be a man which was a cent Some liberation, I think this is one of the things I was going to talk about. But the notion the cultural revolutions, we would think of it as an anti feminist statement that man said, what men can do women can do also. And what that meant is that the standard of being human was read revolutionary and male. But But women could do it, which was a kind of liberation, at least, Karma comes to the states, and there is feminism, just moving into high here. And, and she is really, I think, deeply transformed by it. So that's part of the eyes with which she goes back to this village. Unknown Speaker 05:40 Is that is of Western now feminism and really strong. Richard has been, they've been very, very close for years and years they met first, she was the first guy that the comments, any kind of really personal relationship with. And there were about the same age, which is still photographer, the color values were a little off on this, actually, and particularly in 16 millimeter. This film is gorgeous. And the color, the color values were a little off. It's too badly, they are absolutely stunning, visually. So Richard is a really terrific still photographer, who went with quiet as a as a young activist went along bow with calm his father on the first trip that Americans, activists were able to take, and they work in the city for three months. And they work in the countryside for three months. And it was a fantastic experience. That's when they met. And they had some film stock, I don't know why, but they took films of stilt walking. This is right after the no that was on a second visit, I'm sorry, it was right after the fall of the Gang of Four. And still walking was which had been suppressed during cultural evolution, which is a village cultural form was allowed. And they took some film of that, then they got a lot of money together. And they decided to make a film about one going Carmen was determined that one of them would be about women. They now they took an enormous amount of footage over in AD two and three. And it's now been cut into three films. One is this another is about village life called really village agriculture called on the havening. The third is about a traditional Chinese doctor. So So that's to say it's a very, it's a very savvy American, male with good politics, including Good, good feminist politics, and with a terrific guy, and a woman who is both inside and outside and will always be I mean, karma really cannot be any one thing. She's, she's above that. And those are the eyes that are that are seeing this and constructing it. Unknown Speaker 07:48 It's such an important thing. I didn't read that at all in the film. I mean, it's like so key, it changes my whole perspective on the film. Unknown Speaker 07:56 Now, there's a few that tells me because I don't know. I mean, I mean, just Unknown Speaker 07:59 the idea of being right and being raised as a Chinese China being American and coming out and having your entire worldview changed and going back and look at where you were raised. I mean, that's the story for me, and it's not even Unknown Speaker 08:13 one correction is that she was raised in a village. Yes. That meant another guy during the Cultural Revolution. As an American, she was not allowed to go down to the countryside. She did some work outside the city, but mainly she did factory where she was not allowed to do the sorts of things that people in her age cohort was a real discrimination. So she wasn't really raised that the distance between urban China and rural China is tremendous. You know, that woman, the Lynch's mother in law says It's paradise. And a couple of them says paradise now. Well, I met I met some teachers who come from a remote province. They come from a city in that province, but it is really I don't know what it would be competent. Exactly. It's a very underpopulated province Unknown Speaker 09:07 called Ching Hai and it's it's, it's in this point on the map, but I don't know how to describe Unknown Speaker 09:16 the opera opera. And they were in Peking studying an English course. And and they said to me, Peking is paradise. That's the words that came out compared to Chiang Mai. And Chiang Mai is about like longer compared to Ching Hai, Peking is paradise and then they certainly we have friends who've been to the United States. They say that the United States is that distance from Peking that is the highest from from so that's, that's the spectrum in which I think it's really important to keep it at the same same time but it is an outside person And the questions she asked. And the way they answered her. I think she's an outside inside. She's speaking the Chinese occasion, I had wished that they had soft power the whole thing because I really liked the other voices. And it was very frustrating to me that they made that decision and I talked to them at the time about it, and the date is what they want you to do, but it's too bad. For one thing is that you can hear Congress speaking calm is Chinese. It's perfect. I mean, obviously, it's a first language. And there is an exchange with them. That's wonderful. And it's lost in the, in the VoiceOver. Unknown Speaker 10:32 VoiceOver like that. You don't get to know the people's character you don't know where they aren't you having this other person telling you who they are. Yeah. And then you lose between what you're hearing and what you're saying. There's no connection, Unknown Speaker 10:41 you can do is hear it like the woman, the old woman who's describing what what it was like to ask her mother in law, to go to the to the peddler she's doing it, you know, she's imitating Well, the witch. And you just, I've seen it so many times now that I can hear the Chinese behind the voiceover almost all the time. But it's different. And that was that was a choice. Do you want to? There's another? Yeah, but okay. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 11:10 I have not seen another film. And I was going to ask him the same people made it seem very similar. Was it that the the women Unknown Speaker 11:25 were enforcing the Unknown Speaker 11:28 restriction of having more than two? Unknown Speaker 11:31 was, yeah, that was a CBS film. And they didn't make that. Unknown Speaker 11:36 And was that the same area? Unknown Speaker 11:39 No, my memory is that that was in central China. And birth control policy is the state policies clear. And it's implemented by local people, and local people implementing in our women. So that it's not just that the the women of childbearing age are in this double bind. And that is having to being subjected to state policy and the needs of the family into which they've married. But it's also the people enforcing have to its women and forcing it on, on other women. And women are held men how many times it is explained, and it is regularly claimed to Chinese men, that if a daughter results, that that it's not the woman's fault, that she's had a daughter, the conviction that if she had been better person, she would have had a son, very deep, and really strong so that a lot of women are literally battered for having girl children. And then they were really blamed for having daughters, which they wouldn't be the policy wasn't what it is, but the policy has to be what it is given the nature of the population crunch. But you can see from this that already an 83 really easy stuff. The woman says, I have to you get sterilized after three children's? If you've had it, so long as you've had one boy, if you've had one, boy, one girl, you'll even get sterilized. I mean, you're the woman after two. But if you've had two girls, then they'll hold off the policy of the state now in the countryside is is because otherwise, I think they would never be able to affect it, is to allow at least at least one son. And I know that you just told him about it. And there already has been widespread non compliance. So if you want to say one of the things that states are good at is to say, well, that's what we meant all wrong. Thus bringing everybody into nominal compliance and therefore not having open invisible resistance to a state policy. Much better to say, Oh, yes, that's what we meant all along, and incorporate people then to define that way. So it's really it's changed and it's eased up in the cities. It's one child. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 14:09 I have one. Yes. And that was when the woman admitted to murder. Yeah. Was there a limit to any kind of punishment? Or, as we would have here, Unknown Speaker 14:22 no, this is all pre pre revolution. She did that before 1949. Infanticide was was it was unusual about this amount. And that makes it really unusual. And that tells you something about how dire her straits were that she would kill a male child as it is. She has two of them signs from a pregnancy from eight live births. No, she wasn't she wouldn't. She wouldn't have been punished for it then. Now. People are there is female infanticide to some extent because of the One Child found But one child policy. It's enormously tempting. It's sort of the delayed birth control arm and they don't have any. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 15:14 That's this policy and once we will women is setting in and why is the sterilization directed at women? Unknown Speaker 15:21 Well, you can probably some of those questions you can guess the answers to who determines the policy, the policy is determined at the very top at the, at the at the top level of the state. And it's determined on the basis of the fact that that have they don't that they will be farming for absolute ensure? And there is no question given the amount of arable land, given the rank of productivity increased, which is now very considerable and much more so since. And we can talk about this lady since we collected in action. If the rate of growth, growth birth, if the birth rate continued what it was, there is no way that absolutely no way they could support their population in the country of a billion now 11% of the land is arable. And it's not much expandable. That's all. That may be well, and I should check my fingers. But anyhow, it's not it's the amount of arable land is considerably less than here, very much less than I think is right. And there isn't much room for expansion. So if you don't have birth control, I mean, if you don't have a really strong Britain to a policy, that countries down the drain, and they all know it. So that's one thing. And I think and we can talk about this in context with reproductive rights here, but the notion that there are times when there is a collective needs to be a collective voice in terms of reproduction. I think this is one case that confuses me, man, however, then the question arises the role of women in shaping it. And I think they don't have a role in shaping to have a role only in implementing it. And they do have a role in implementing, they also have a role in defining. One of the things that defining one of the things that goes on, one of the ways in which the policy has been defined is that the incentives, there are positive incentives to control to have less, there are negative incentives, if you go ahead and reproduce, negative incentives are fine. So people say fine, I'll pay the fine. And some of them talk about the little kids is my little 1000 Yuan. For child, that's how much literally, you have to pay for him because it was a fun. And women I think do have some say in that in that make these cooperate in the defiance of it. And they also run away to have each other in a lot of ways of getting out of full compliance with the policy, which is sad as ease, but still, some people want more than one board job, and everybody wants to do. So there's that why it's the sterilization that's directed at women is as it is really fiercely resisted by men. There is this acne. And the assumption about it is that it makes you entertained. And if it doesn't make you infinite, it makes you less of a man. Now one of the things that almost all the the officials in the village have in a lot of places, I don't know, all but in a lot of places. The when the policy was first instituted, this was certainly true a place I read about in South China, because the male cadre had to have reception. And they did, they did not like it at all. But they did it as a model to be emulated, but nobody emulated. So they didn't. So the resistance on the part of men for the second is very strong. And the and and even though they know and will say look, it's it's better for the man to do less complications and ease of operation, so on and so forth. Resistance is really strong. And women's resistance to sterilization, I think is it's men who resist, though was ation for their wives. It's unclear I don't know, and I don't think this or I don't think many people can tell us exactly how many women desperately do not want to be sterilized. If it were if they weren't going to be punished by the society or their immediate family. Would they choose sterilization, they might well life is a hard life in the countryside. And it might well be that you'd want to be protected from future births provided your family wouldn't be mean to you on that basis. So that's a question at that point. I can't really, I can't I don't know the answer to that specifically. Unknown Speaker 20:05 Well, I'm just in terms of comparison, comparative case in Mexico, I participated as a consultant for fill the devil's a, that may be some. And there's another section on it called simplemente, Gini, which is less known, and takes place in the village where I just filled in Mexico, and I was there for the interviewing. And the woman in that family was asked many times whether she liked having children, and what was off the tape, and in all levels, so that nobody could understand it. And that was, if you dare mother in law talking to her daughter? And would you dare say you don't want to having kids? And therefore on the field, Oh, it's wonderful, having children? And then occasionally saying, yes, of course, it's difficult for total support of the family and your whole family policy. And I think that this is, so it's very, very difficult to see one comment, and I was curious, my own whether I was shocked by the fact that in lumbo, they chose the women to implement sterilization policy and when we couldn't have children. That was very interesting. And is this, do you think they did that in this particular case? And do you think they tried to find women like that elsewhere, point that could be could be more sympathetic than their own personal reasons. And that was politically a very strange choice by the state, to have Unknown Speaker 21:24 her be who she was, who she was, it's not so much that she's a neighborhood person. The village had is that other woman who happened to you saw with her daughter, and she just doesn't for it would have been longer was once again, and this would have been a team. Now it's a village because of the collectivization. And the team is now called the neighborhood. So it's maybe 40 families that she's in charge of. And probably she got it because no one else was willing to. And the resistance in the reluctance to do that kind of work was very great to do that neighborhood enforcement work is great. So I don't I don't I honestly don't know, she was really upset in Chroma told me that it was really pathetic. And she talked about it for some time, that they have it on film, but they just didn't include it, about the way in which she was gossip about it, and the way in which people and boy, they really meant it when you heard the women say that if that if the head of the Women's Association, his daughter in law, has won in the Alana mountain or bust upper house, they knew exactly how you will do that to the house and the anger at it. This is another thing this is from a quite out of place. This is a village in the south that two anthropologists have been studying for some time, the potter's joshing and forget. And there what what they found was that the Colosseum had different levels of of different forms of implementation. One point is a lot of forced late term abortions, which were really unpleasant and under sterilization. And earlier the use of incentives at each point, if it could be seen that the policy was fairly enforced on everyone, people would acquiesce. But if they were people held out, then the resistance would grow around them. So the people who try to use the system and having a baby and paying the fine. That was a terrible danger to the entire policy. Because it had to be felt to be being done to everyone. And then they would be reluctant, but an acknowledgement and acceptance that it was necessary, but but holdouts endanger the fabric of the entire thing. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 23:55 Phil makes clear is the interrelationship between policy and everything else about gender inequality. So the man who brings in more money and the kids pack for open society, and all of the things make people want to have regard children as small girls as small. So it's like, in a way, it's a cycle or set of contradictions. So I have two questions. One is, is there some other way of breaking in on this? And the other is if women are now having much smaller families that says for what because it is common? What are is that freeing them to do other things to take more equal roles economically, or something like is that breaking out of a contradiction in some way? Unknown Speaker 24:53 Well, we'll probably just pop into a new one. No, no, no, that one breaks out. It seems to me it's the end. Lewis This is a tough one. No, no, I think it's a description of how life happens but um as for having fewer children and being able to do other things, oh, I I'm America's had a big issue on this, it seems to me as Patra locality. That is the fact that women marry out. One of the things they said that they put no statistics on it and I know that they have it is that people are now married in travel which if you marry intro village, yeah, you have to go to your husband's household. But your relationship to your NATO family is very different. Even if you marry out of the village, your relationship to your NATO family is going to be closer than it was when those ladies are talking before miles but those are ladies that's real distance. And you don't do it a whole lot, very often. But then they have trouble walking, but with a bicycle, which they will have, you know, you can have a very different relationship and that notion that maybe one of the things that we change is the relationship between mothers and daughters. The mother who got married in 49 says our son is a member of a family a woman is at best, a daughter's best. And she and she said you know what they come over and they eat sets about that's I don't know if you heard that she says it's three more mouths to feed my dog, my daughter, her husband and the child that come up with D three mouths to feed, which is a lot. So I'm one can imagine with Marin inside the village with better communication and all of that, that a mother wouldn't feel she's losing her daughter, raising her for another family in quite the same way they could I think anyhow, being some possibility of closer ties, and then might maybe instead of all of the help and connection being mother or daughter in law, there would be a possibility of that, particularly maybe if you have fewer children, therefore, and they will their libraries and their stay alive. Maybe there would be the possibility of a different relationship between mothers and daughters. That seems to be one thing that we change things a lot right away. The other thing is that whereas up until 1978. Your residency was permanent, wherever you were born pretty much it was really hard to change. You Born in the countryside, you have a countryside residency, you have a card that you permit, and it's you don't move to the city on a whim, you know, move on an awkward and you don't move there either. You're a peasant, you're a peasant, always your children will be peasants, it becomes a kind of photo class or two classes in China, more reasonably then the ones developed annex exfoliative during the Cultural Revolution, these peasant worker, border worker, you have a worker, or you have an urban permit, you live in a city and you pass your job on to your peasant, you live in the countryside. And you're joining your presence from no period nothing. Some possible Oh, and not only that, but to provide for the fact that men are several more mobile men go to the army and there's a chance of maybe also men got get more education in the countryside, in particular. So they might get some other job, some technical drive the factory job or something like that. Residency passes with the mother's line. So that also keeps you rooted in the countryside, things have changed enough. So the first of all, people have been allowed to move into county towns, not into the big cities, but there isn't moving to the towns that's already up, that's going to be an enormous change. I think Unknown Speaker 29:05 that fact, of our kind of semi urban, or semi rural, however you think, living there, there's one thing that that will change it. The other thing is, as these Kathy comes grow, insofar as some degree of marrying out has to do with single surname villages, then you're gonna have a lot of surnames. I mean, that prohibition, about not marrying someone with the same surname, which is often unavoidable, but then you have to be sure it's more than five degrees of relationship away. That more there's more of a possibility of mix them and therefore, of men in a sense marrying in or of the establishment of a nuclear household in a county town that becomes possible with some greater degree of mobility. That's another thing that would, that would change it. That's the thing that's happening to things that are happening as a result of reforms that I don't know how to predict that at all. One is that you noticed already, this was a two and it was before full collective possession by now it's certainly true agriculture seminars. I mean, it's the women who are doing the agriculture. And the and better paying fully industrial jobs are going to man. Women are using the workshops and tiny village works outside that sold like Polish, in fact, on I don't know what that division is going to be in the long run, surely it means for a start that the more high paying high postage, just dropped the mail. And that's actually division of labor is not going to be cheerful. On the other hand, the peasant households income is rest a lot on sideline activity. In all pairs, I think in all the room, I don't know, if it seems to me, that's often true in predominantly agrarian countries. So the sidelines are their handicrafts, their pig, raising their oldest. And they can get to be very substantial, right? This is a famous egg lady. She became a 10,000 Yuan household. That's very, very, very rich in China. And she did it she started out with a couple of chickens. And she sort of put in and she bought the first car that was owned, ever, by any peasant in that in some known as we do China, the only car with private cars, purchased by a peasant woman on the basis of like the little chicken, because it started out that sideline stuff, which is that that sideline stuff and the money that's earned from it is really publicized a lot in the paper, these are households to the Enlightened peasant women that make that kind of money are the new me relative role models, not the labor, not the labor heroines do the serving the people, but the peasant woman who's making a lot a lot of money. And this actually is a problem news article recently called the rich leaf protection. And it was about some peasant woman who had done very well in mushrooms, she may have revealed to me. And she was bothered all the time by people asking for advice, because she'd been publicized as a model to have pretty rough days, they had to do it, I want to do the two, also officials have come around and say we'll have a meal. Match. Well, she was smart, you poison them. But so so there's there's a rising status and and I think as visible increments or to sideline, on the other hand, that money tends to be concentrated, drove by and thought about in terms of household, not individual and therefore dance tool, one can think of it we down into male head of household, and therefore not necessarily improving the stakes of a patent. There are markets now women are buying and sell in those markets, particularly the smaller township ones. So that this is a it's just much looser than it's been in the past. And therefore I think looks towards kinds of changes that I couldn't prevent. But that you can feel of the possibility of change, the biggest one being, I think in any departure locality or modification. And that I think will change. So many things just ripple out. One change the patriarchal nature of society. But but when I mean, I grew up in a natural, local neighborhood. Absolutely. If we certainly picked you up over in terms of power, but the natural locality matter. It really did just make room. The locality doesn't know Unknown Speaker 34:11 I found this very impressed. You did yeah. Well, yeah. Because here we are in a little village, which is to my foot binding is one cannulation away. Now here I am in New York City, our way I really don't see that much difference I see in certain educated academic places. Yes, that in the streets. In the Bronx where I grew up. I do not see the lack of pressure of having some family reunion there was a lot of things of work. So instead of doing at home and selling still married. She's just a girl she married? Well, then he did out. And I really don't see connections being made. And moving beyond except for a few. And I'm sure there are few in China and the United States and few cleaning. Unknown Speaker 35:20 I think I know what you mean, I'd like to hear from you. I think it's important to realize how very, very different to this are granted that one can you can skim off correctly, I mean, skim by being superficial. But I mean, you can sort of make up a kind of skimming motion off the top of the things, you see the peaks of them, and they they're profound resemblances. But that's a skimming off, because what's underneath is so enormously different, that it's a different culture, it's a different world. In the, in this village, a woman who had a baby out of wedlock would be so profoundly disgrace. I'm not saying it's a cool thing. Here in certain groups, it's not and you would also do bad math. But the word even use the word bad. No, this is an it's an inadequate translation, for the kind of utterly destructive nature of village gossip, village gossip, you get good gossip in the face of that going well enough, a person commits suicide like that. That's one thing. Here, it's better to have a son. But I mean, it is unlikely that your husband would beat you to a pulp, because you had a daughter. It's just unlikely, nor would he desperately attempt to divorce you. In order to try again to have a son. Because that's one of the things that you want, your family has mandated that you try you abuse, you are sufficiently social beg you for a divorce, so you can marry again. So you can try for a son. I mean, yeah, there's some preference here. But But the son, or his mother isn't another thing that's even more maybe more telling the son preference here, I think, is in the main, I mean, and people should really say if this is right, because I don't know, but it strikes me as as preferential and attitudinal. And only it's a very remote way, do you think, Well, my son will probably or more money than my daughter, and therefore if I have trouble when I'm old, I'll have someone to rely on, if that's an anybody say, Unknown Speaker 37:46 the opposite. I mean, I know women say you have to have a daughter, because she's the one who Unknown Speaker 37:51 will take care of you. But even though you prefer and but, but here in this society, in the countryside, which is where 80% of the people live, there's no shelter security at all, zero. If you don't have someone who's gonna take care of you, when you're old, you may well be you wouldn't starve, because the state now will take care of you, but you will be so poor. And so without prestige, you can be absolutely at the bottom of that village. And only some can do that for you. Still, because of the nature of marriage patterns, and so on, only a son can do that for you. So this desire for a son is not about gee, you know, about attitudes, it's about is it is so keyed into the most fundamental material structure, and you have children who have children, what they said, to keep the door open, so that you have future generation. Among with that, among the things that means apart from, from from life itself, in terms of the posterity handle, among other things it means is that there's gonna be someone to take care of you. Like in your old age, you cannot work as a peasant forever, it's now possible the work is backward. And so who's going to take care of you? So that's one thing, the other thing is in this film, already, you can see such an improvement, that I mean that that and then I think it's necessary to reflect them the distance from there to to here, and maybe I'm not doing this in a systematic fashion as I should, but that daughter in law, who's the only one who has been educated in high school, and she is so different, and able to be so different. And I think that that I don't believe in hardly in education is changing, but it does change things, I think, and it changes things really quite quite a lot to talk about here in this society. I think we can talk about patriarchal structures. I think you know, society, I am more comfortable talking about forms of male dominance and sexism. And I think it's different. Patriarchy really means that the power of the Father who is head of household in a way that is visible, that spelled out or elaborated articulated to our village life. That's I mean, that's I mean, fathers, I don't think even in Brooklyn in which is they don't have that kind of power. Not Not that they have a share in an overall social dominance, I believe, but I don't, I don't feel I think, I prefer not using I prefer using patriarchy for something where I can, like my China, where it seems to me it's still very, very clear. But I don't want me to get into theoretical discussions and sexuality is so different here. This notion of men and women not mixing it all. She says she was mortified when she saw their names on a tree. The fact that you own there is it is a disgrace to have sexual experience before marriage, I've really do believe that none of them do. And virginity is, is a rule, a strict rule, not preference, but a rule and punished otherwise, this business of having a veto power on your marriage, but not really selecting a mate. I mean, that's an enormous difference. I mean, imagine if we know if you can only say, yeah, for most of them, what they what they can do is say no, thank you. That's very different from saying I want to, or the number of free choice marriages in China and even in the city, is, is undertaking well. So that's, I mean, you know. And the other thing is, is? Well, I guess, I guess I don't know how else to go about saying how very different it truly is that the ceremony of bowing to the relatives, which is a serious ceremony, not as elaborate as it was before liberation, but still very much. And you can see what it's about. It's about female submission. Although you can get depressed and more hadn't changed since liberation, and then I give my, I'd say, but it's paradise. And she really means it's kind of nice. But yeah. Unknown Speaker 42:36 I'd be interested to hear what you what why you think things have changed so much. Another question, given the fact that about population property continues at the rate, given the Society of youth, do you have just a well described? Do you think there's any other option to the to the birth control plan? Do you think there could be another way to do it? Unknown Speaker 43:05 Well, I would prefer it. And, and, but it's something that has not happened in any party state that I know that the population most intimately involved in, which is population, women have been much more central in the making of the policy rather than the implementation. You can say, well, pretty neat. They let women implement the use, and I have to do with mango. But, you know, it's Yeah, I think it would have been intimate with other women who really themselves being engaged in the formulation of the policy. And perhaps then, and having that kind of political power, you could have more equal distribution sort of operations done. I think it would matter if women you know what, one of the most common forms of aid that we do not even use, but they may check to see that that you don't take your ID out. So that is a very regular way our floors, which has health consequences. It there are women. So now here's an interesting thing. I don't know how much. There are several women scientists, I've heard about them when they come to the States a lot, who are working on a male contraceptive who isn't working on it all the time. Probably they will release it for use before testing it, just as they use the pill in a very, in a very relaxed fashion is I don't think their use of enhancing drugs is now I think it's kind of very relaxed attitude towards using powerful medicine and terribly relaxed attitude towards Western medicine. But I think it will be quicker in China, and I think we were out and affected in US Mail conference. So that's one place where I see things happening and happening different things. Fight and there are women scientists who are really working on I think it's not simple minded way, but in some connection to the fact that there are women and yeah, you, Unknown Speaker 45:13 you have written about it. Others have talked about it as well. But since the Cultural Revolution has come to an end, there has been a gender differences. And what are the implications in terms of progress? I'd love Unknown Speaker 45:29 to chat talking about Unknown Speaker 45:32 the the thing No, I was I spent, I stayed there for six months last year. And the thing that was an I was in the city. And so everything I say really is about the city and the countryside. And the cities are more alike than all of the cities north, south central, more alive than any of them is like a country. So I spent a little time in the countryside, but not enough to draw up a conclusion. I mentioned about the cultural revolution. And this is not this not when I was talking about karma. And this notion that biology was not inevitable best. You could be like dramatic. And what's happening now in the cities is a proliferation of articles and artifacts and discussions, and talking about how bad those iron girls were. That was the name for the really strong agricultural workers during the culture illusion. The criticism is the eye and girls that meant that woman can only be worth anything if she's like, well, that's wrong. Women are human beings too. And who would not agree? Women are gentle, sweet, and have a wonderful disposition, emotion within the nurturing and it goes on and on. So that the new with the merging is biology is destiny, but it's such a really wonderful and, and a revolution that you saw in Time magazine was that everyone meant to have the hair from men will have those were women doing that. And then no one was saying, grow and get your hair they wanted. They wanted an important thing because the revolutionary ascetic on the Cultural Revolution imposed from outside, there weren't that many of you, I don't know how many women embraced it from inside subjectively, for sure it was imposed from outside. So now you can express difference. The available means in 7877 was a permanent and 1000s of people. But then it gets into into another process. It's not subjective experience in some mix of things happening. There's fashion develops, fashion develops and women are the stipulated prior to consumers. The head of the Women's Federation in China very very fashionable, very elegant lady gets on TV, beautiful dress, talks to her constituents the biggest city in the world and says you should be more fashion conscious I'm not Unknown Speaker 48:34 and we should change fashion spring fall. And she says you will be helping the Shanghai industry this country must have high production and lifestyles. The United States with its threat of quotas against cotton, big danger. You want to help the full mountain sessions buy clothes and they'll make you happy. So it's both its virtue and and pleasure both I mean I can I can throw out a lot I'm trying my I don't know how to order and completely analyze any of this stuff. But I've got lots of my favorite thing is this brothers bust enhancer that took it and show it to Can I read you this just because it's so much fun. And it really well. Just visiting this very recent article, China pioneers of bustin Hansard. This is the headline remarkably results and achieving rapid health and beauty. This was on the inside cover of the Women's Federation official order. The Silver Star plastics and color printing factory of John Minh CIty Guangdong respectively, which has happiness and success in everything to women in every walk of life. Introduction, I will factor in the interest of eliminating the flaws in female development and promoting the development of healthy women's bodies and healthful beauty activities as prepared and manufactured the rapid healthful investment. This first analogy was made in accordance with the principles of physiology. To strengthen movement of the muscles of the chest, it stimulates the secretions of the pituitary glands. And it goes on like that, scientifically, then this test, my favorite testimony is Wang xx, a young woman from a bookstore, she says, my two breasts of different sizes. I don't know how much medicine I've taken, how much money I've spent on cures, or after using the budget enhancing results were very good. As I understand your factories, best enhancer is your need for suffering as many people like myself and done something good for women. Using the rapid healthy beauty best enhancer not only clear up the factors on her face, but also to remind her senior previously I frequently suffered from insomnia. And now that the freckles are considered a really disastrous event in China. So this acuity discrepancy is a major factor, the bust enhancers kind of plastic coffee little piece of garden hose and a ball of compressed air that you saw Yeah, he could. But um, okay, so so there's that kind of stuff, it's happening a lot. On the inside cover the women's magazine, there's there's an instruction had sit downs. And how to close your legs and what to do with this coffee table in the way and illustrations, these articles on where to wear a ring on which finger which they got from an I don't know where it from, what memory, the rest that comes from, a lot of it has to do with Western stuff, but not all of our needs. And women. I mean, the young women, I knew a lot of them would they are, they are our love clothes. And it's a new thing. And it's newly available. And it is a way of expressing. Now at the same time, it's a way of having to express. So that's that's the point that's so hard. If your choices are between a society in which to be fully human, can be managed to work, or a society in which you'd have to be a woman. I prefer the first for myself. But that's not what's happening in China now is it's as fun as this whole time period when it really is women themselves enjoying expressing difference. Loving it in comparison to the recent hard times. And as that happens, the whole of the thing is taken away. It's no longer there. But now other things talking we said okay to be a woman. That's that that point, which I don't even have reached in in China, but I think you can watch it in a way that no, we reason backwards and trying to understand historically. Unknown Speaker 53:34 Here, I guess or maybe it just keeps happening. So that I don't know if this is the other thought I had, as you just heard. The other thing that I'm trying to sort out is that the Cultural Revolution as I now understand, it wasn't so it's not a war. And one of the things that happened to is that gender became natural, who kept wasn't was engaged in that even though the statement of the Cultural Revolution was that it's not about gender, and it was an explicit stem. So just like in Germany or Japan, gender roles are intensified gender separation in general has intensified during the war and England and America had temporarily suspended in order to bring them in the factory in the same way during you know, that's what the Cultural Revolution was like. There was a suspension of gender roles in this iron girls thing. Then the Cultural Revolution is real. Okay, how do you both signify signify ordinariness? How do you say how do you say it's over? And how do you also make it feel that return to gender polarity is a part of it. And the way in which then women as women in in comfortable, confident entry gender roles stabilize at a time of great difficulty. You know, Rosie the Riveter goes back to the kitchen, the iron girl gets locked out of the scene to me, you know, similar events and then may be about similar loans. Society, but it's so yeah, the only thing is that there's underemployment and his unemployment in China and a lot of need for a female reserve reserve on the US labor most community who female is great. And one of the worst things you do is you encourage women to just happen to take long and maternity think about not working Unknown Speaker 55:50 that well, let me say I in girl was forced out of left field. You mean I in girl? Not all women, right? Because you know, I mean, I grew up No. That's yeah, that's invisible stuff. The iron girl. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 56:16 Yeah, just brought up a homework question, which is fine. What then based on what you say happened to the discussion a few years ago in China, which is exemplified, but that will be in the middle age where the female ophthalmologist has a breakdown and mental breakdown, because she can't combination. Unknown Speaker 56:34 You saw that movie last night, because as I did to, because when I talked about this in the movie, it's called the middle years, it's about middle aged people middle age, in this movie, I think was about three to Unknown Speaker 56:53 the so this one that was choose professional couple. And they weren't in the working, we're choosing ophthalmologist. And one day she had to do three operations in the same day. She had a she had, she had a nervous breakdown, she had a hard time filling the sky. But she said a hole. It's a very, very angry, interesting film. And nobody in China that I spoke to said. That's a film about intellectuals during the Cultural Revolution, who were underwater, and work to death and didn't get good housing, didn't get enough funding. To not see the movies about women. We see this about him, but they really don't. But they made the movie with him. And Unknown Speaker 57:53 I didn't see the film. So what you said your analysis of the year would be different than what the world? Unknown Speaker 58:05 Well, if you saw the film is that she's getting so I mean, she is doing a triple DES she's doing she's doing a triple day, and everybody is sorry for her. Right. But but it's not. I mean, it's at least, you know, I don't know, that's the way the people I just talked about are still working. And someone did an interview with the with the with Sharon, the author, and she's when she didn't recognize it as being about really Unknown Speaker 58:37 does not. That's so that goes back to the question as before. I'm trying to ask why their connections being made or the and partisan. In other words, a lot of different cultures between all of the patriarchal cultures Yeah. Yeah, sure. No, Unknown Speaker 59:00 loosely. Okay. Sure. Unknown Speaker 59:03 Are there connections? Maybe not in this village? Because it might be No, but somewhere? Unknown Speaker 59:10 Well, I'll tell you in the in cities now. Here's a curious thing. I don't know how to think about this. Well, the Women's Federation is the only women's movement because it is a state that is more autonomous. By definition of trauma in such a state and just the way you'll know you're trading the wounds Federation's as far as protecting the legal rights of women and children. And they are really concerned with what happens in the countryside. And what happens in factories and you're very good on divorced people in an office instructing them on the rights and the rights of the intellectual profession. revenue. And if you had told me, I call it the why expansion. It was among these early virtual run, beauty language lessons. And analysis is certainly has been women's rights movement in China. And guided by and sometimes betrayed by and sometimes held by the Women's Federation, with feminism which attempted to be different from its rights, although certainly connected, that I think is very new. They are asking Western feminist type questions of their own society, but a tiny group, we remain very disconnected from the overwhelming majority of women, and they have no class analysis. So I couldn't care. I mean, there really aren't that, that this Unknown Speaker 1:00:53 last push that I mean, I need more information, I guess when you were talking about the period when, when the when does women could be like men, I mean, sounds very much like someone robots really no different from her from her analysis as well. And and that Dallas is, at least when thinking in terms of Western Western cultures, even sort of social democratic governments, you really, it's true, that democracy as we understand it has only been one long weekend, as far as I can see, for getting rid of oppression. And that is giving people equal rights, allowing everybody to assimilate and become members of the dominant culture being male being white, Anglo Saxon, and that this model was taken over, as I understand, understand it, at least during the Cultural Revolution, it is being taught now, in China. This is being questioned now, which I'm just I'm throwing out questions I'm not giving an answer here. It certainly is being challenged by a certain segment of the women's movement in this country who is also looking for the possibility of difference without going back to oppression. But yet many of the forms of at least certain small groups within that cultural within Western cultural Feminist Revolution seems to be duplicating old patterns that make some of us uncomfortable. What what did your western intellect What did your intellectual feminist friends in China mean? When they said that this is a large organization within talking about protectionist policies for women? And where they then gone back to Simone de Beauvoir, and now, where are they finding it's a different way to be a woman not fall into that kind of protection? Unknown Speaker 1:02:34 I don't think they could answer that question. I think they speak from from the exterior, finally, from all the rejection of that version of knowledge, said women can do what men the rejection of that, insofar as it is connected to asceticism, an attack on what appeared to be bourgeois, in a funny way, or return to some people points in the name of the man. There's nothing wrong. And there were some funny ways during the Cultural Revolution, I think, without asceticism, fitting you with a common goal of confusion, asceticism, against and so on. Rejection of that is clear, they really began to die. At the same time, and and there is a welcoming of, and they will talk, the language of difference, the language of difference in ways that would make us most nervous, but which they see as an expression. Very, very mixed up. Unknown Speaker 1:03:58 And that's, that's pretty good. Unknown Speaker 1:04:01 To be able to be able to say I as a woman, instead of, by as a member of the proletariat striving for the ability to indulge in pleasures that were considered bourgeois, therefore, to be literally extra. So, that kind of release of individual energy and possibility of choice, combined with form, this is taking Rich's agenda? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. And, you know, I need to be pushed more and I'm here to suggest things. It isn't a matter of data. It's a matter of trying to sort through what would be the right questions to ask Hello, David, it's pretty common that marches against him with the popular press and over that means how much that reflect that reflects normative and prescriptive stuff. But more prescriptive. Unknown Speaker 1:05:20 What is this woman's organization to what is this wives organization and what kinds and I Unknown Speaker 1:05:25 think we should call it the women's organization that is an elite women's view, which makes me so uncomfortable is that the most elite women are also the most feminist recognizable turns. And we're also absolutely not interested in Unknown Speaker 1:05:41 women in other kinds of women Unknown Speaker 1:05:44 have been complained about not being able to get bound and not being able to get any real complaints about them, you just can't get good that you can get help now is, I mean, think about that. There's now a whole group of young women coming in from the countryside. But it's not you know, so we say oh, so terrible, on the other hand for some of these young women coming into the country, so Wow, they are getting to the city. They can't wait they are getting out of there. They are really going to go like I said wild in the streets as they get out and know that they band together. And they have a kind of working mutual assistance group that is very distressing most employers complain about the gang from when gang they get together and they they leave the jobs without notice and stuff like that. So that so it's been so both things. It's it's very much broken. The Women's Federation is here the sorts of things of that law in China sort of newly returned so there's a divorce law isn't whether there is a new marriage rule which most people experiences if Unknown Speaker 1:07:16 you haven't been you can get divorced. He doesn't want to divorce you. And he was just abusive and repeatedly getting a divorce mean it's just a normally abusive family. He's been you can you get divorced, he doesn't want to divorce. My rights, when you go to his Federation and his family with him two days a week tells you that one of my rights was disrupted. In a divorce situation, custody is is assigned in the best interest of the child, which is really the news in trouble because it used to be the sole male cousin. And mother is unable to get custody the best interest of the child has also been given the housing situation in China most housing attached to the finishing work. Most hasn't been assigned for the male worker to get the most. Is it possible that the court will let you have your child which is a friend of mine, because she couldn't get housing which is able to hold on to a charge at that cost? But the Women's Federation paralegals do I have to take an extended maternity leave if I don't want to. Maternity leave can be in some places up to three years. It's every practice. Hey, it sounds good, except that that 25% is, as I experienced a massive article last year in between making an action. It's not it's a lot. Can you be forced on this one for them? It was at one point it was announced as a trial balloon let's have Kenyan attorney, Women's Federation this is this is nothing about discrimination. And efforts to drive them out of the workforce. Do not stand for this. This is about factory working professional women, doctors, teachers, they're not going to be they're not going to take 10 years maternity the factory worker might be forced to the Women's Federation plays a role in their are one of the consequences of the new reforms which on the one hand, very, very, very opening up in China in a way was driven exciting also. And it means a removal of central control which is also further means that individual units can do what they want to do in ways that can stress and sell that individual unit the say to a female graduate of a university or to somebody passes some technical exam in the factory. I want a woman to work as a more expensive Oh With the wave is equal to one woman. And because it's you can now hire and fire a little bit out from under central control. The yellow means Federation protests that how and their protests are really constant. How effectively focus varies really a lot. Women from countryside will run away and we who are abused will run to a nearby sea and there's no place to go, that's a reason to go. I can't go home because you mothers get back. So you got and the Women's Federation provides that gingerly and they're very worried about what they do. And they do not want to be accused of pregnant women Women's Federation tracks the rise of prostitution, this past weekend in China. Really, or you can say, there's no days you will say, well, all the proceeds will be educated, wonderful prostitution is wiped out. It was great. Well, I mean, some by exposure to different views about the sex industry in terms of families in here, trying to rethink that stuff. But in no way there was no visible prostitution in China. Until 7778, then it made a small appearance. And now it's clear that prostitution is there in cities throughout China. Directly built with foreigners and domestically there's a price difference phones get charged. Women's Federation worries about it thinks about. It likes to think that many of these are misled young girls misled by very very wicked men. On the other hand, they allow us how there is some incorrigible but the Women's Federation is involved in trying to understand that they have a social investigation. Unknown Speaker 1:12:10 Everyone does Federation as it goes through investigation, or women's issues, they do do statistical surveys. They have all sorts of things educational levels and so they also collect information but it's not it's not you know, it's not like not like if the government instituted now was the you know, from the top and we live in this association and did that work as part of the government that structure if you like, that's about what that's what these Federation is. i It's a very good thing I don't think it can be come easily. There very much you're really limits on their limits on the way they think their limits on the power business and they find that they do do things they're not not. But women who want to change gender relations all together really want to stretch it. There's no place for them then on to Federation's about protected protected legislation, maintaining protecting Social treaties. But finally, there's one last note about that, which I find very helpful, which may indicate kinds of changes. And I do think it is really helpful. It used to be the real losers would get us women would get assigned to the Women's Federation to work and they get out of it. You know, you graduated from higher middle school or from from college, and it's time for you to get assigned to government agency. Run. That's how my work is. And you get a sign up. That's it. My career is over. And you try and get out there as soon as you could. Everyone says dominated by Oh ladies they weren't interested in nothing ever happens. One curious effect of a rising discrimination against women in certain other government ministers is that more young women are then assigned to this federation, and they are full of energy. And they are doing different things and one of the things they're doing is learning so that you I met a very young she just graduated from college in the siphon. How'd you feel? I didn't want to I want to work with Foreign Minister. So but here I am and I couldn't get a job foreign ministry. So okay. I was here and I was satisfied. But I figured out and she said I thought that women and men were equal and that's what I always thought true. I wasn't cheating reflect my own situation very well. But that was she somehow If it's not true, she says, and I am finding that out and I have statistics and I've done studies, and I've got a graph and I'm gonna go to the United States and she knows China English is used between primitive and elementary. But that's, that's, that's what's in her head. Also, they're seeing Hong Kong videos. On TV, they're listening to music that that's different. And that is a struggle over. But it's true that Jingle Bells is regularly played out of season because it just Western music, but there is something about rock music that can't be Jingle Bells. And something else happened. I did one went to one dance with my stone into two dances. But I only went to one in which I danced and there was this big thing in Chinese a tango, which is really interesting because it's very ordered. It can be out of essential it is but it is so elegant. And they learned steps. There was a time dancing is good. Chinese should learn to dance. So everybody literally dancing classical Institute all people have a right to do the thing on there. These two, this one couple of particularly young couples. It was incredible. Then they put on a discotheque. Everybody except me. And one guy who was sort of shameless and who anything and booth one woman who did the tango so well. And she had come to the party in a very short white skirt and a white top and she's really fashionable and she steps and I saw late I said where did you learn to this go like that? Because I I don't I couldn't at all. I don't even want to think about what I did. Unknown Speaker 1:17:10 I love to drink it was my last night and I remember nothing but I remember the cheering steps and she showed me this little book and blue book has you know she has mastered it she is ready to your anytime she asked. So I don't know what that's going to mean it bubbles and it changes and I don't think you can shovel that back in I think stuff like that you can you can try the spiritual pollution campaign the anti spiritual conversion campaign which held sway for about 18 months span a three to a four try this and there couldn't have been resistance to the anti spiritual pollution campaign was so profound and it worked so well that they just gave up on it. I think that's my understanding you issue a wheel missing job or when I was Unknown Speaker 1:18:19 born two questions Is there any possibility for women to remain single now especially these women is Unknown Speaker 1:18:30 a great article about it. Can I redo my my be kind to singles article? Yeah, so now there is a they have a social problem which they call older singles. Oh, the singles Oh women 28 And up, haven't married. They haven't married for many reasons, some of which I'll read to you in a moment as soon as a funded and it's considered a real social problem. Part of the social problem is housing. Now the title of this article, which is translated from the Shanghai liberation dailies have a heart for singles and says unmarried people in China suffer from social stigma, as they're regarded by some as even psychologically physically unsafe, but the number of single people is on the rise. So when they say it should be accepted, just as it accepted that people have the freedom to choose their own spouse as it should be accepted that they have the freedom that sounds really good beginning right. Okay, now we get into the article a little bit. There are 600 people. Here's the ugly that's the first What that says the drawback is not good looking and they have a very bad job. So that's one second kind is those who sustained unrealistically high expectations of others and failed to find anyone to meet. The third type of emotional types of cannot bear the thought of setting up a family with someone when they're not fully captured their heart. These three types are those who unwillingly meeting then there are three volunteer categories. People who have been deeply wounded in life and on this account, reject the opposite divorcees who have given up hope of making a happy marriage. It doesn't mention that to get a divorce goes in high school, a lot of trouble. And 30 people influenced by abuse from literature or friends which advocate detachment from various so those of now that we get from in China was sex outside of marriage is considered immoral. A single lifestyle should not. I'm sure you will get it because every dog has sexual desires. And their long term repression is detrimental to health. So since sex is healthy, and since x can only occur marriage, the single state but still single people should not be the target of unfavorable gossip. People heard and loved deserve sympathy and a helping hand issue is sweated out of their prejudices, and encouraged to store in the society should show more canvassing more people and create a better environment for them to find South Africa's fastest. That's why you have a heart for saying, again, America. Very interesting. women's liberation has also increased the numbers of single feet. Some well educated career minded women prefer a single life to devoting themselves to such women ought to be understood, and their dedication appreciated, instead of being the subject of vicious gossip. What does happen so that's that's a that is a new stage while I was there, they were incredible number of articles about columns and the oldest thing. And they were all about, you know, get them married, or on the other hand, can't get them out, because these women are too picky. They own system and some are more educated. What's not said is that men want to have something that's not stressful. Anyhow, it's a lot about women being too picky and don't be picky and get married to a marriage Bureau's you always dating should not not a dating service introduction, which is to leave tonight with this knowing that there are people who choose not because they are dedicated to career that's that's that's a new thing. Within a statement, which says everyone wants to know, the assumption is that those people will be one is about not buying the other is about no second chance to sell. Unknown Speaker 1:23:31 In other words, it's different. So that means know it is one that means you don't get married, but it doesn't speak to you sexual. And so that sounds so chaste. When they both nevermind, they don't think Unknown Speaker 1:23:59 oh. I mean, has been acknowledged in any Unknown Speaker 1:24:05 Well, way in 1975. Every group that went through all the friendship tours would say, do you have no kids? So So the answer would always be No, but then some. Everybody wants to get married with you the answer to that. And then someone would say, Well, it's a very brave person to say that the answer would be no, not only that, but our young people that we knew and how to say, say, okay, that clearly was nonsense. But that was the standard policy and I stopped people who said that they didn't have a no but they weren't. There was no contemporary work for them. This guy claimed he didn't know about throughout the United States when he found that quick and God knows what he's doing now. He was there, there was an article in a youth journal. The headline was, I fear I had fallen in love. And then it was a letter to the editor and letting said, you're a student, and I have a friend, and who's very, very close. And he said to me that he really liked to spend time with me. How lot of time together in one day, I felt the curious feeling. And then we embraced and now on the web, because I'm not interested in people of the opposite sex. I am dedicated to watching. And answer back was interesting, it says, Well, the first thing you have to do is to read some textbooks about physiology. On when you realize that normal development is having relations with the opposite sex, then you understand the problems of the way you are currently behaving. Understanding normal development combined with willpower, you feel certain. Okay. Good luck. For China, in that context, this is pretty true, because that's about it, you know, we don't grow. It's 50 stuff. But 50s. That was quite incredible. It's not Well, I mean, you know, in addition to that, and shine, it was definitely gay male population. There's no question about it. Just Christopher students, check it out the native check that out? Both very nice time whenever they reported. And I mean, one of the not surprising aspects of that is the music. It's in China, and they say, this Argentinian Exactly. things very much, but I think it would be fun. Anyhow, it's a lot of that is around hanging around the hotels, and you can see it, go to a bar, and you can see a lot of foreign sailors and young Chinese guys who are very, very selection, there's just no question about that. But it was COVID as well, that the and it's against it is against the law and get picked up. And I still think there was sweeps in parks. And the Sweeps are looking for extra marital heterosexual. And conceptually, and they're not. I mean, they're not. They're not like that kids are moving people. They are certainly subject to some forms of criminal penalties. But I don't know why. They are. I heard about one case, this is what your student told me that there was a case that she had heard about, in which that she was actually I think, knowledge is this great. And so she moved around. These are two of them. One of them was cause gas. And the and they got she got arrested on because they were caught in a hotel. And she was sentenced to three years in prison. But the President told me this, her friend said, Yeah, but that was because it was the third time. So it was unclear to me whether it was because the woman was cross dressing, whether whether it's cost dressing, that was an issue, whether it was promiscuity, or whether it was Yeah, and I really don't know, and they didn't know, I people have told me that in a lot of neighborhoods and village life, fields like that it would not be possible to win who would always live together. And everybody is so new and everybody's so new and nobody sort of talked him out of it. And that level of invisibility but it's a big question that that young these two young rather extraordinary had for me was they wanted me to explain gay liberation and Eastern homosexuals looked just like anyone else want to begin and there had to be them. I mean, it was it became an extensive and interesting discussion about what it means to claim identity which is already a notion of individualism. So Western so much halsway that, but that I mean, in the envelope discussion, they not only understood it, but they want them they understood it a lot. And they understood then I took me further one one of the most is thinking of converting to Christianity. Which is interesting. No, but Christianity, we will not have to because missionaries have written wonderful anti missionary tracks, etc. To write funny century but Unknown Speaker 1:30:31 but the thing about Christianity in Confucian China was that it did have a personal branding message, it came with imperialism and just like whatever Liberty messages there are, and a lot of Western stuff is gone, and now comes also So, so what was what was positive? I don't know, I sort of I mean, I think that which brings you out some way from very set forms of family and illusions. Oh, that's me, Chris. I'm sorry. I got caught in the war, historical digression, my original rejection of Christian missionaries and Christianity on behalf of war Chinese. I have lately modified as I think about the liberating nature of the Christian message, and particularly as expressed, for example, in the Taiping Rebellion. So I've just been thinking about that, because of this young woman, the way in which he was able to listen to my explanation of Gay Liberation while supporting the claim and identity and to stand up and not be the cause of all that. It didn't surprise me that she is someone who's thinking of converting to Christianity, because she's already thinking in terms of personal salvation, personal. Western religious, it just didn't surprise me that I could explain myself so easily to her. She was already in some measure there in terms of what she'd been selling. I don't want to be