Unknown Speaker 00:01 To some extent that can be organized on that basis. I mean, maybe need higher wages, better working conditions, but to some extent, they could be organized on things that will be exclusively women's issues. And to some extent something's, you know, interacting both because they are in both situations. Unknown Speaker 00:18 Maybe the way that I guess the two things, I'd like to say I like sort of like this to be a general discussion, that dialogue, but it's too tempting to respond. But two kinds of responses. One, I don't at all want to reject the Marxist notions. That is, what I'm really trying to do is to figure out how I mean, I meant interactive, I really meant interactive. That is, I didn't mean we should set these aside and move to something else. What I meant is that we really should try to sort of develop a theory, which which can be encompassing of both frameworks. So I just want to say that since it seems to be a little bit of a misunderstanding, but the second thing I want to say by way of illustration, among the sub issues that I'm engaged with right now, is the issue of how scientific management affects workers, male and female. And what seems to be emerging in sort of the beginning of a kind of, you know, sort of general survey, both of them work other people have done my own research and scientific management, scientific management is, you know, Taylorism, right, that is the Okay, scientific management is the introduction into the workplace of efficiency techniques, which normally involve time and motion studies, the the division of work along very specific, and particular lines are that one worker does one function, and then it's Taylorist method, it was sort of an attempt to find the one best way to do any particular task, what it essentially did was to remove any decision making process from the worker. So it's sometimes accompanied by or called the de skilling process, it takes skills away from workers, and puts them into the hands and the hands of management and turns workers makes, it implies that workers have no initiative at all on the workplace, but simply do rote work. And its introduction in the US generally occurred around the First World War in the 1920s, when lots of sort of major companies sort of began to adopt scientific management efforts. But what what it looks as though it happens is that workers mail tend to resist scientific management efforts on the grounds of what we would roughly loosely call worker control issues. That is, they did not like the fact that the skill was being taken away from them. And they did not like the fact that that decisions that they could make, they could no longer make. And in fact, so great was the resistance among numbers of groups of workers that management frequently responded simply by firing all the skilled workers and introducing unskilled workers because they were more practical and easy to deal with. In other words, met workers male respond to scientific management by resisting the the removal of their skills work as female, however, it seemed to respond. Now, you know, this is only the beginning of something that I would not wish to write at this moment. But it does seem to me to be true or to have more truth and falsity in it. They seem to respond partly because they are de facto in early 20th century industry, less skilled and male workers. They seem to respond not to the indignities inflicted upon them in terms of removal of scale, that's not to work with control issues, but to two things. They respond to the way in which worker control or sorry, the way in which scientific management eliminates the sort of group process with which women have constructed the workplace that is the capacity of women to work together in teams, the way in which scientific management often operated on the basis of bonus systems and piecework rates which kidded women against each other, and so on. So, they will they they do not go out on strike over the speedups over the intensive work they have to do over the boredom of the work over the absence of initiative, but they do tend to go out on strike over those issues. And secondly, they do tend to respond to workplace condition issues. That is, they respond positively when scientific management although it reduces the real satisfactions of work in terms of what women can actually do in the Unknown Speaker 04:41 workplace, if it is accompanied by lunch rooms downstairs or newly painted work rooms, cleanliness or a place to hang on to hot and cold instead of dumping it on the chair behind you. You know the institution of cloakrooms In other words, amenities at work. which men don't seem to give a damn about women care a lot about, right. And indeed, in one instance, you know, there's great competition is in the cigar industry. There's great competition between two plants in Detroit, which are both turning to scientific management in the early 1920s, where one competes with the other, neither of them ever discusses raising wages or creating changes in the actual work situation, but one installs showers and then the other one installs a lunchroom. And then the other one installs. Cloakroom for women to hang their coats, and then the third one gives them a five minute now, the third one allows them to move between floors, when they have their lunch breaks, and they can go have lunch with their friends, you see, and those are the issues that they fight over. So anyway, that the point of all that is just to suggest that it's, it's that there may be something in the way women approach the work place, which is different from the way men approach the workplace, and that those, and that that approach may really come out of expectations of work, which derive from some other place. And that's what I meant when I said, Really, that's the connection, that one, you know, has to has to look for, because if one then looks at those women and says, as the women's Bureau, in fact, did in the 1920s, and said, What's the matter with those women with the speeding up the work process, and nobody's going out on strike, never understanding that they weren't going out on strike, because accompanied by the speed up with some other amenity which appeal to some other place in the woman. And that's like, I guess, Unknown Speaker 06:49 trouble with an implication I get from your last talk, Unknown Speaker 06:53 which is that women can Unknown Speaker 06:55 be satisfied with these little amenities. But that is all Unknown Speaker 06:59 we care about. Unknown Speaker 07:00 If you've avoided the idea Unknown Speaker 07:02 of women struggling or wages, Unknown Speaker 07:05 that concrete, the kinds of concrete struggles, and using the whole idea of amenities, to make it less concrete my own hearing, I think we can address why we may or did not engage in struggles the same level around wages and things around, or whether they could be bought off with recognition of how little your labor was valued. Just the limitation to the struggle. The built in notion. Unknown Speaker 07:36 I know I'm gonna get myself into trouble. But what I really want to say in response to that question is what makes you think that amenities are little? In other words, what makes you think that those conditions of work are less meaningful than an extra 10? cents? an hour? Right? less important? Yes, but that's exactly what's wrong. Right? That is that's exactly what, go ahead. Sorry. Unknown Speaker 08:02 No, I'm not. I'm not going to say that. m&e is less important, we're not important, but I'm not. I'm also going to say that a weight is more important, particularly at certain point in time, especially when women upon in, in, in less important and less structurally important jobs. Were also in need of supporting families. Unknown Speaker 08:25 I agree, UCI would respond to that by saying, Yeah, I mean, at certain points in time, and for certain women. And for certain kinds of women, the wage is, of course, the thing that's important. I mean, we saw that, for example, in the Yale struggle. So I would never want to argue that that was not the case. But I would want to argue is that there are some moments in time. And some groups of women workers, these women tended to be young, single women who lived at home with families. And for some groups of women when other issues are important, and that we can't understand how women respond to the workplace unless we understand the totality of what's important to them. You see, I don't want to undermine I think wages are crucially important to lots of women lots of the time and so are working hours and so on, but there are other times when other issues are at least equally well, right, but what then one would have to become right that one would have to become quite historically specific, which I could try to do. Unknown Speaker 09:31 Also another danger in the late 1960s in England when they were introducing scientific management to a number of plants in England, it was overwhelming demand. For example, the main struck over the institution of the tea plant. And and I think that challenges your notion. I mean, I agree with the idea that you know, one person's amenity isn't coming versus wage and one sensibilities right different presents. But in this case, In these cases exactly where the male workers were getting higher wages in return for giving up the tiebreak. And I remember I was assuming that I could have taken care of men pouring tea and so on masculine role, this sort of stuff. With the only chance for the men to get together to talk now, union issues are just too so understood how important it was. And I think that, that may also challenge this notion of, well, it's just men who struggle over that issue. The other thing which is getting on a different track, but when I studied women in England, and in the United States in the garment industry, this was a few years back, and I could be wrong. But my impression from the statistics is that women actually paid labor force, roughly the age of 16 stayed in until they started having to show that is they didn't leave just because they were married. But once childbirth, after a certain period of time, because they re entered the paid labor force and worked until later, really too old and until they die. And I think that this also may challenge the notion that women didn't work except for a brief period of time with it, they really did work with the exception of new childcare. And I think this has implications of the whole debate over from our civil family. But I think you may be willing to North movement, men's work will be challenged because I think even more men's work was interrupted current unemployment and by injury and by moving, I think the assumption of the society was that men had to commence like this work. And the assumption should women's that women's like, was not important job is primarily for reproduction. And unemployed man. The assumption was, he still had to work even though he was unemployed. And I think that I'd be concerned about that line of thinking, because I think that it blurs the distinction between Unknown Speaker 12:03 on Desperate interesting, and I think that it shows that we have to be careful to distinguish between assumptions and with reality, on all different levels. And that in some cases, if the assumption gets to be confused with the reality, that's when you're in trouble, but if we recognize the assumptions, is one thing sometimes the realities being different and helping us to understand these patterns a little better, I think that's where room Hello, I wanted to say, well, we don't know Unknown Speaker 12:31 whether anybody's done any research on support systems, whether POS there's a difference between the amount of support that woman who went on strike, and therefore was pretty on wage, but get from her family, and that your workers, women took part in the strike, even though they weren't necessarily working. There. anybody's done any research on the support? Or lack of? Unknown Speaker 13:07 I'm not sure what you're referring to the kind of support women get from who are Unknown Speaker 13:12 interested in in Union non union. If they're talking about going on strike, what kind of support do they get from their family for that? And if they aren't getting support? Is that possibly reason why? Unknown Speaker 13:29 Yeah, again, this raises the question of, of looking at different situations at this particular place I've studied, the men and women were both unionized and separate industries. And women were very supportive on the strike, which I think is one of the reasons both for the high level of organization of women and men, because the men, and I like to think of also getting away, are also looking at the support system as one of interdependence between women and men. Of course, you can't get away from the fact that women are certainly subordinate to the situation independent, but there's a way in which they were interdependent some situations and could depend on each other. Unknown Speaker 14:10 And you're very Unknown Speaker 14:13 much coworkers, what you're saying is that there was a network of female family members who could support each other emotionally, financially. Another was, Do you know how widespread Unknown Speaker 14:29 that country's Well, fortunately, was long enough ago, and I don't have the kind of evidence where I can interview them. We didn't write diaries. Unknown Speaker 14:41 But they seem to be some evidence in the garment industry that, for example, in the big 9919 10 strikes, it looks as though those young single women were able to stay out of work as long as they did. A because they came they were secondary wage earners in families that is they've lived with By and large with parents who supported them, and be because they lived in a community where the ethos of unionism, social justice and so on was such that they could be supported. And it does look as though that was a factor in the success of that particular strike that I think you'd have to answer that question in terms of both the economic sort of relationship of the striking wage earner to the rest of the family and in terms of the community from which that wage earner came was another example, from the mill towns in Pennsylvania, where a similar kind of thing happened with a male father's usually heads of household or brothers were miners are unionized. And the women who work in textile mills in those towns were trying to unionize are supported by the males in the family while they conducted unionization attempt and they use the rationale of afterall, we belong to Union families to unionize. But I also know examples that are the opposite, that is, women who try to unionize who come from areas of families where there's no unionization where unionizing is seen as not something that a woman would do. So I think you'd have to look at both those factors, but they both exist. Unknown Speaker 16:30 On the continuum, that we should rethink the decolonization of the internet, Americans continues. And first of all, went to what exactly says you're holding on to that distinction? Unknown Speaker 16:50 There is a difference between somebody who pointed out there is a difference between women's and men's labor force participation, I think that's, that's clear enough, the idea is to look at differences between women and men, without looking at them as opposites. And if you look at the difference between women and men, labor, women's and men's labor force participation between temporary versus permanent, we've got there, this opposition and torn is exclusively one thing. It's just another thing. So I'm trying to look at the differences in a way which reflects the complexity of reality, rather than positive two opposites. My guess my point was, Unknown Speaker 17:29 when I tried to, when I was asked by someone to defend women's into participation in the labor force, I found looking at statistics, I can't reduce that. I'm willing to work one, two. And I think that that also was forcing me to accept the economist human capital. Production, when I began to see that I began to speak the mind look, anyway, productive economization is not as useful unnecessarily almost obliged me into their framework. If instead is internet before anyone's participation in the labor force, could be tied to their position in the family labor and in community labor, then it can be described as two separate phenomenons that interact but that aren't seen to be dichotomous, which I think almost implies that you're talking about the same two sides. And I know that it doesn't Unknown Speaker 18:37 necessarily need to be so Unknown Speaker 18:40 if you've considered addressing retention, instead of shifting your attention away from intermittent and continuous to the full spectrum in the process of labor with all the different types of labor that Unknown Speaker 18:58 everyone, Unknown Speaker 19:00 I think that's a good suggestion, as I say, this is something that I've been working on recently. And I think that, that that that that's part of your thinking, some of these is to look at the schedule, on the other hand, when doesn't want to get into spectrums with stages, either. That's another that's another kind of model, which I think has been overused. But I think that that's a really good question. I read an article a couple of months ago, Unknown Speaker 19:31 about socialization children. female children responded to each other and to their environment was very different to children's female children to learn to be more Catty, but also have more bonds and to work in groups and play in groups and for children tended to be more casual and to be more athletic and more specific from place to place. Just leave Unknown Speaker 20:00 Hear me, really. Unknown Speaker 20:04 And I think it really relates to have a look responded like insulation and the workplace. What does that say to you about our nature as women? Isn't that is a bit of socialization as already said in the center and continues on? Or is it? Is it our nature? I think we Unknown Speaker 20:28 should throw that question Unknown Speaker 20:30 out. I'm not considered. Unknown Speaker 20:34 Someone likes to respond to this Unknown Speaker 20:37 was going through all kinds of situations where it was boosted. Unknown Speaker 20:43 Or they were they were Unknown Speaker 20:45 they were elementary aged children. Unknown Speaker 20:48 I don't know. They were Unknown Speaker 20:52 very, like early elementary ages. Unknown Speaker 20:54 And what to the point where the girls were still Unknown Speaker 20:57 playing with all parties Unknown Speaker 20:59 and the boys were getting to school? Yes. Unknown Speaker 21:11 Well, perhaps we don't need. Right, right. Although I'm not sure that way, you're going to give us the kind of answer we want. Unknown Speaker 21:18 Is there a question of nature? Unknown Speaker 21:20 That's what I'm saying. Is that? Unknown Speaker 21:23 Or is it a question of asking that question, Wednesday? Well, Unknown Speaker 21:32 yeah, well, I just would like to give an answer to that question. Also, without even knowing whether the research was well done, socialization is is not forever done, your child continues to add your life. And it changed in and it does not lead you not to grasp opportunities, changing opportunities, and changing structures when they happen to you. In any study that I mean, any concept, that's something that happens to you, when your child is going to shake you the rest of your life is just as bad and pernicious as it is you can see sort of contemporary against children who were raised in the 50s, girls, presumably, playing with dolls and doing all those things, I now go into medical school of law School becoming a business women clawing their way up. What happens when you grow up that opportunity, you sit over there, rather than anything that happens when you're a child. But I have another point that I wanted to make, which is also in response to this, and that is really, I mean, your presentations. Of course, you're trying to integrate it to sort of set out a new way of looking at these things. And I think that's very useful. But because you sort of artificially broken away broke away, you're sort of at least allistic more so than Carol. The the work and family sort of shaping of opportunities of of the people's activism, you sort of came away, or you moved away from the historical and the structural position of people at the time, that they have to get to be active in the historical moment. And what are they? What is their relationship with? You know, other you what is happening in other unions? What is what kind of what are the different opportunities for different kinds of women workers, and so on. And I guess that's what troubled me, I know, you couldn't give, you know, the whole picture. But in order to sort of bring the structural under historical Babkin, I think you write this anyway, that I'd like to see it sort of carried into the workplace and into that activism and sort of turned into explanations about where these matters matter. sort of structure structural situation. Yeah. I Unknown Speaker 24:17 mean, I agree that that's a problem. And it's always difficult, as you know, you know, when you think these issues, the complexities of making any statement is such that you need an article to justify a sentence no matter where you go. But the question that I started out with, you know, I started out by asking, you know, does consciousness influence work culture? In other words, can you explain what happens on the shop floor, in terms of, you know, of people's consciousness? That is, is that, is that something that we can look at? Well, it seems to me that the answer that question was self evident. Yes. But and so granted that all these other factors exist, but what actually happens on the shop floor is also a functional have, you know the community or the support systems, you know, and so on. But if you could hold all those other factors constant and just look at consciousness, then the next question is, would you then see a difference between male and female behavior was really the was? I mean, I think it's an intriguing question not, you know, not when I think that we can do more than play around with ice, as I suggested. And I guess what you're asking is whether that question really has any value, you see, I mean, I don't know whether it does in the end or not, it seems to me that it does, partly for the light that it will shed on contemporary behavior. And partly because, you know, since we are now in a situation where men and women both work frequently together, and where, you know, even the AFL CIO has now begun to acknowledge the fact that they can't organize women the same way they organize men. You know, the question then is, you know, if you could isolate this separate consciousness, does it exist? And if you could isolate, it, would then help you to understand some of what's going on. So while I think you're absolutely right, I guess, I guess I don't quite know how to do all those things together. But I think the warning is well taken. Unknown Speaker 26:19 In some ways, the danger of asking a question is it sort of reified consciousness as this Unknown Speaker 26:26 separate entity? I Unknown Speaker 26:29 particularly difference Unknown Speaker 26:30 is paid Unknown Speaker 26:32 to separate from attendance different means such different things and different gender difference, the fact that women were children is in some cases a positive difference. In some cases, a negative difference in some cases are completely insignificant difference between women and men. And if we separate difference, in sense here, that's beyond a social context. I think it's very dangerous and reification Unknown Speaker 27:00 I hear what you're saying, but I guess I you know, I'm not a sociologist, I have a story. And I really am rooted in the particular that is, you know, of all I like to play around with these generalizations. And I think Louise is absolutely right, you know, you don't write them until you until you provide the framework and the structure for them. But then you see, one has to go on from there to say if you could never make you know, if you could never ask such a question because it's dangerous, then surely you're losing a lot of sort of richness and depth that you could otherwise hang on to. Unknown Speaker 27:41 Someone and answer for you seen so far, is continuity to the session was held in this small chest. Where a roster the conservative feminist theories pay homage to various ways it's been completed and the whole question of essentialism, biological principles into the theory even by the most well intended feminist theories. There were a difference because I want to repeat it. I'm not going to do it justice to repeat session. What strikes with striking what strikes me is that both picked up on the same theme in your work as practitioners right now case but Lancer on the story, universal to defend it started as broadminded. sociologists Unknown Speaker 28:39 and anthropologists Unknown Speaker 28:45 study that. Women was specifically very much enforcers separate spheres. She's not getting it. And I don't think that's where she wants to be. But it was that question about the oral interview since he's done with wives come down support campus. And the question was, how? Well the conclusion was that a lot of the condoms function in their work and as guards not equipped for the horror, because their humanity was on public stages services state that humanity was a private sphere, women, powerful wives. Common heroes retain the private state in the heartless world, the heartless world created by the service the new powerful unfairness awards. One of the stages when destruction was did public private sphere ever really existed in constant fear and nobody had an example specific star does exist. Were a dick and she came out urging for getting To recall to historical context, walk with the people, when what are they doing? What are we talking about? But there are historical examples. Of course, the thing that the morning session was very rich. Was there more themes? There are some people who don't read the question and the conclusions were going against. I mean, that's where you are going face to Marxian perspective into biologist, I slip, I haven't quite fallen to great conclusion, because I sort of went into shock because this morning, number two was critiqued quite thoroughly as bio biological differences. So if you haven't spoken they are onto something that I think that taking a step beyond Unknown Speaker 30:59 the teeth of spider that someone asked Unknown Speaker 31:11 they didn't use a French que Unknown Speaker 31:12 que que a woman, but that ends in the male gardens. And that I think, is very instructive in our new thinking of gender. Unknown Speaker 31:27 Where we think Unknown Speaker 31:30 we should be looking Unknown Speaker 31:36 to emphasize that this was precious ideology, the history of this separation was or what was being mentioned. Well, the Unknown Speaker 31:50 the old Nazi idea of folks command shift from now on the world. Unknown Speaker 31:55 But this was a super Unknown Speaker 32:00 human roles were at opposite poles. Unknown Speaker 32:03 But what I what I hear use, artificial. What I hear you both saying is that they were arguing that difference, as it was, in fact used was negative in consequence for women, which I weighed was taken. And I think, as I said, I think that that's a real danger. However, I don't think Well, I think two things, I think, one, that for all that you can say that one nevertheless still has to ask the question of whether there whether there is a different consciousness, however it is used. That is, I think one has to be historically accurate. And however, it may now be changing, right? In other words, one has to ask the question of whether the capacity to use difference against women, it doesn't exist by virtue of the fact that women themselves feel that difference. And if that's the case, one can condemn the way it was used, but nevertheless acknowledge the historical reality that existed. And secondly, I think that one then has to ask in a sort of a galleon way, whether, if that's so cannot you turn that notion on its head, that is, it difference can be used against assuming that it exists, if it doesn't exist, we have no debate, but if it does exist, if difference can be used against women, then surely it can also be used for women, in other words, and and as a weapon in the hands of women, whether it cannot be turned to their advantage, that it that it didn't happen that way in the Nazi period, and that it hasn't happened that way. In the past, by and large for women, I would be the first to admit that it could not happen that way. I think is a subject that we have to question Nadine, you had your hand up one time demonstrating Unknown Speaker 33:59 male female morality is that if there is a difference between men and women and delivers consciousness be careful of getting out of the biological determination argument because how justice and culture is often it can be very starkly determined at times when neither women or men about patriarchy. But as long as men and women are culturally ideologically. Unknown Speaker 34:51 Form issue definitely tricky. Unknown Speaker 34:53 issues Unknown Speaker 34:56 which can back Unknown Speaker 34:59 up Question to become more and more is an either of you more reading than reading for the current feminist debate? How do you feel about the argument of patriarchy and locating some control over sexuality we could actually understand roles and how Unknown Speaker 35:36 I've sort of I'm familiar with that and I found it very intriguing I have to say that for this particular stuff I've done I've put it aside for the longest time Unknown Speaker 35:48 and I guess I'd like to avoid the question as well but I would be delighted if somebody else anyone want to speak to Nadine question review briefly for length because it allows Unknown Speaker 36:48 for her level on having another income and if she knows that if she wants to have children, she will be an economic depending then in the struggle for how art is influenced by Milan determination to get a lot of money Unknown Speaker 37:51 okay, let's see if we can get people who haven't spoken. Unknown Speaker 37:57 I have to like to make one goes back to an earlier discussion. And that is that psychology, sociology, behavioral sciences or social sciences. But if anything, we have discovered this correct, then it would be possible to assume that there would be no differences between men and women. Now that we've got to take the differences for granted, simply because to be a woman is to live from the first day of birth until the end of her life differently. Now, it doesn't have to be forever. And I think that the studies that talk about differences, differences in traits and behavior to the principle of roadmaps should not be reported without statement of degree of overlap. And they split. Just to say, instead of saying, men do this more men are more boys and girls, so then you discovered tremendous of a significant difference statistically, can be a very small difference for all practical purposes, for purposes of social policy, because they overlap is greater. Now if I make it admitted as a sociologist to history in the last four years, it's impossible to talk. Current history sure is a different attitude towards work on the part of Congress to the graduates whom I studied in the 40s and currently, just in the 40s This women in one of the Seven Sisters colleges wanted to work after college partly as less abuse that partly they had the team, that the very experience of working for pay magic, no matter what the skill, no matter what will give them an insight into the world of their hustle and provide the kind of independence for a while working, married or working in to have children will give them the kind of experience that will last for life. And that will serve them well. In case of disaster, widowhood or divorce some something very different attitude in the attitudes of women who might follow it from class of 79 to 83. Their attitude towards work is rather close to men starting to close, it is an important source of identity, they know that their life is going to be long, at most one seven will be given over to child rearing. And they look towards work as a as a sense of sense of identity so that if someone asks, Who are you, they will answer in part in their life, through work and meaningful attachment to somebody, patient is much more. Unknown Speaker 41:54 It's interesting, and I think that's a big difference in consciousness, which, which I think, in fact has existed the times, a couple of days ago had an article about a research paper project, which looked at college graduates from the women's colleges from distinguished schools in 1967, and 77, and reported that something like 77% of the 1967 graduates worked, and that of those who worked an enormous proportion, my memory is something like 40, or 50% had advanced degrees, and more than 20% made more than $40,000 a year in others, it really confirms your research that work now is not simply something that women do to fill in gaps, but that the source of identity may have shifted, at least for this group of women from home to work. And if that so then we might be able to see a narrowing of this sort of different consciousness in the future. So that's interesting. Well, okay, I was going to call on people who haven't spoken yet so Unknown Speaker 43:07 based on your emerging hypothesis there's been a radical change, effective women's involvement in this land structure nearly 70. Women will face a second this in this, my readings of this project women, although they've been heavily involved in organizing Unknown Speaker 43:51 Australia, they've been much Unknown Speaker 43:53 more into they've been instruments. Now, these women have been around economic class, all these basic Marxist Unknown Speaker 44:05 what I what I, Unknown Speaker 44:06 what I'm interested in is, what do you think these women were essentially what would be omegas or maybe be a part time work? What is what is facilitate? Radical simplicity, it couldn't have been nothing. Have you received that that sort of transit or that sort of revolutionary change? Unknown Speaker 44:43 If it's not about economics? Unknown Speaker 44:48 I think it probably is around economics in large measure. I. I mean, I think the best way to respond is quite personally, which I grew up in Cardiff, which is a coal mining poured in South Wales, whose livelihood depends on coal mining. And among the areas that depends on some area culture, forest and project Creek, which is one of the big as you know, coal mining areas. And my closest childhood friend is married to coal mine who works in Ponte Preven, who was one of the pit women. I mean, was one of the men, he's no longer working, he quit his job. And he's now working at the Mint, which isn't carded, but his wife was very much involved. Now. I don't know. I mean, when I when I hear what my friend Nora has to say about this, which is why I say it's a very personal response. And I don't know how general it is. Which which, and this was a woman who'd never done anything political before. So she fits your definition. She responds by saying that it wasn't, it was neither the job nor the wage, it was the end of a lifestyle. In other words, they were going to close those pits up, they are going to close those clips up those pits are gone. And the what the result is an end of the entire sort of community structure and an end of the way that that people live and how they relate to each other. And at least what she says, and she never has mentioned, you know, money or wages or job security in that way. What she does say is it's our lives and our homes, you know that? So I'm not sure that that's, you know, there's I'm not sure that the issue was economic in the narrow sense of that word, although surely it is in the broader sense of that word. But clearly, it is in the, you know, in the broad sense, when the miners went back, she sent me these literally whole page newspaper page, put things up the minus going back, led by women, I mean, led by women, which was really quite amazing. Carrying banners that said, for our lives and our children, was how that was what the band has said in the picture that she sent me. Now, I don't know, you see if that's the case, then as I and I hadn't thought about it before. So it's an interesting question. But as I think about what I've been saying, it's really sort of consistent. In other words, it is exactly in other words, it's, it's a negation of public private, you know, a sort of sense that really public private exist in one sphere, not in separate spheres, but then how they could act really was in defense of this home, you know, which however, rests in the jobs provided by the kids. Unknown Speaker 47:42 The mind, the way the mind works, Unknown Speaker 47:46 and I was wondering whether or not there was the present a lot of women activities activity. Yeah. Right. Unknown Speaker 48:00 I don't know, right? I don't know. Right? Not not Norris. You know, you know, the community she came from was a very, you know, the women did not work. They were very traditional. They were poor. They lived on the incomes of the husband, the families were traditional, and they had no sense of that history. In other words, that history, the there was a strong minus history that is Granada husband had a very strong militant stance, but she was really outside that and this was the only time in the 30 odd years I've known since I was six, right that she has had any connection with this. And so I think this didn't come from that tradition. I think this really came from the thread of the jobs and I don't know if she never mentioned connections with other women's groups. She's not a feminist. She's not you know, this was her, you know, was their struggle for their home so I can answer that question. I know in Yorkshire in the northern mines, the green and women were much more active as possible than in the Welsh mines. They simply were not I mean, Wales got short shrift in that instance as it does so often. I was going to say it wasn't the English struck miners strike it was the British. Unknown Speaker 49:20 community, it's very important. And I also think that the women's the women's movement in England, for women other than reading especially but other women too, gave the women miners essential support that what they were doing not terrible was not wrong did not defy established authorities. My one of my closest friends who was their union adopted a Yorkshire mining community. And one of the things is that they actually brought them in London for a period of time. And the story they told me about the change in the consciousness here is this man was coming in about how the women were beating these demonstrations. And then in the same breath, he talks about how he couldn't understand men doing housework. And a friend of mine who actually, the man said was ironing a shirt, you know, going on and on. But the women, many of the women, coal miners were actually met by feminists and I know that the Yorkshire secretary treasurer of the Yorkshire women's organization, is a Unknown Speaker 50:29 feminist system Unknown Speaker 50:30 really was a real connection between women in the women's movement, giving support and provided. Yeah, Unknown Speaker 50:40 that's, that's interesting. The real question is whether that whether the kind of support they gave was derivative of what the women, wives of miners and so on wanted and developed or whether it really created a conscious and that would actually be an interesting question to explore in terms of the issues that you're raising, which I mean, it's actually a golden opportunity for somebody to do some interviewing and talking to find out exactly what happened in people's minds. We have time for one more question. Anybody who hasn't asked one yet? Unknown Speaker 51:16 I came here late. So I don't know when the question has already been covered. I hear a lot of discussion about consciousness. But I'm still not sure what I know or understand of this session, if there is any Unknown Speaker 51:35 theory of consciousness and Unknown Speaker 51:38 what is what is, it is very broad, what is consciousness, consciousness happening is in terms of attitude in terms of identity in terms of participation, patients strikes and other kinds of activities, it has been interchangeably by concepts such as etiology or culture, or what have you. But is it is there any theory of consciousness and is conscious has any anything specific to women, by class, by gender, by nationality? or what have you? And if in fact, I think for us to try to discuss the question, the question of consciousness implies an understanding of culture. Unknown Speaker 52:34 We should pass on that since actually the first two presentations, we did sort of come to terms with a definition for our purposes, which we've been using, I don't really think it's too as much function at this point to sort of try to expand that or to debate it. And you probably should. And on that note, we should call this workshop Unknown Speaker 52:57 to a halt. Thank you.