Unknown Speaker  00:01
Religion and social control? Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker  00:44
Okay, I'm due to class go. This is Francine Foleo, we both teach at Manhattan College in the Bronx. I think that the panel this morning set us up very nicely for what we wanted to do in this workshop because the panelists kept circling around the issue of the religious dimension of the turn to the right in the country without ever focusing on it directly. And I do think that the religious dimension is a very important dimension of what's happening in the country right now. When I moved to Wichita, Kansas, five years ago, I thought that I was moving a generation back into the past. And it turned out, I was very unhappy to see when I came back to New York, that in fact, I got into see a couple of years into the future, when we're talking about the role of religion in blocking social change. In wintertime, it was a daily experience to open up the morning newspaper and see whatever political issue was current at the time being discussed in religious terms. I learned that Jesus is opposed to liquor by the drink, that the alcohol in the New Testament didn't drink, the wine in the New Testament didn't have any alcohol in it, like I did during the big issue. That Jesus is opposed to the fluoridation of water, and so on. But there were three points in particular in my years there that I saw, religion being used for political ends in a way that was very frightening. First of all, my first year was the year that the here's like movement of the I found movement swept the country. And what that movement did was to target I think it was 20 Major Midwestern cities and to blitz each for six weeks, almost everyone in the city who belonged any of the major churches was pulled and asked for money, supposedly for religious purposes. And in fact, and I don't think the vast majority of the people who contributed knew this, the money was being channeled into right wing political causes. Second of all, at the Kansas women's weekend, the major fundamentalist churches in the area of bussed large numbers of congregants, men and women to the conference, got them there early in the morning, so they will be sure to be seated, there was only a limited number of seats in the hole. If you get a good seat up, you wouldn't get it back. They were sure to have seats for the day. They were monitored in terms of how they voted. That was one proposition before the group. Men and women should have equality and marriage. And there was a woman next to me, who was kind of laying very low, she was from one of these churches and then mom to the both jumped up and put her cord into the air. And someone from the church came over and grabbed it from her and wouldn't allow her to vote for the rest of the conference because she had voted for the equality of men and women in marriage. And throughout the whole day, people were waving their Bibles and saying, you know, wives be subordinate to your husbands. Students kept coming over to me. What do I say when people say to me in the bathroom, you know, what's the most frightening event of this kind that took place when I was there was the vote on homosexual rights, which was fought, the city council passed an ordinance granting homosexual civil rights and the fundamentalist churches organized to get 10,000 signatures or whatever was necessary to have a referendum put on the ballot to repeal the city ordinance. And the fight which lasted for months was fought completely in religious terms. The slogan of the anti the anti referendum people was sin has no rights. When you win one raised constitutional issues or issues of separation of church and state, these were answered by quotes from the Bible. There was absolutely no acknowledgement of have any issues beside the religious issues? Now in all of these cases, it's clear that the campaigns were orchestrated by small groups of people seeking power for their own purposes. And in fact, as we will leave in Wichita, the three people on the city council that voted for the city for the homosexual rights ordinance clearly destroyed their careers in doing so. And the balance of the city council shifted, and the right wing fundamentalist were taking over the city council. But obviously at the same time, the small groups depend on the willingness of many people to give ear to what they have to say. And obviously, religion has very powerful means of mobilizing people. There's enormous peer pressure people, people paid attention, who in their congregation was there at the City Council to speak up against homosexual rights? And you know, were you did you did you stand up and be counted on that thing? I gave a, I was on a panel in favor of the ordinance in which I was reexamining certain biblical passages on homosexuality. And it was interesting that the panel represented a range of areas, sociology counselors, and so on. My talk was the only one quoted in the newspaper, because I was the only person talking about religion. And it was just feeding into the whole thing that the argument was religious. A student the next week brought in a newsletter from a fundamentalist church, the whole issue of which was devoted to refuting my argument point by point. So the churches were using all the very powerful resources at their disposal for certain political ends. And yet, it was always clear to me that there has to be an ideological substructure that people are responding out of, because when I examined the here's like movement in my courses, and I tried to show students what an incredibly shallow view of Christianity was being put over through this movement, they didn't want to hear it. They defended it rigorously. It wasn't as if I was providing them with an opportunity to examine something they had any questions about, they didn't want to hear any criticisms. And the homosexual rights ordinance was defeated for one. Now, people were by themselves in that polling booth. There had been wonderful, wonderful letters to the editor for weeks before supporting the ordinance, we knew it didn't have a chance, but we hoped the vote would be close. And it was four to one. And so obviously, people's fears were being played on extremely effectively, and things were being aroused and people that were there before a small group came along to use this issue for particular purposes. So, what I what I want to do is to examine very briefly, what I see is two of the major elements in the religious substructure, which can be tapped for particular in relation to particular political issues. And these, these elements are dualism and male god language.

Unknown Speaker  08:12
Now, by dualism, I mean the tendency which is endemic to Western religion, to think in exclusionary and hierarchical ways, good evil, US them public, private, in terms of what Zillow was talking about this morning, male, female spirit flesh, to separate these things, so that if you are one you are not the other, and the pairs are hierarchically ordered, so that of course, ice or pears in them, spirit is better than flesh and so on. And it seems to me what's been faithful for our understanding of women today is the link between male female dualism and Mind Body doors, so that men have been associated with mind rationality, spirit, intellect, and Women With Body nature, sensuality, and so on. And this means that for any woman who does not choose virginity as a way of getting out of her, sensual womanly nature, and this means all but a small minority of women, it becomes the task of a woman in both her private married life and in the social order to symbolize the proper relationship between body and mind within the individual. That is, just as each person should live so as to subordinate the body to rationality and spirit and make sure that the impulses of the body are a given way to in individual life. So in the social order, the woman who symbolizes the body should be subordinate to the husband or to the male leadership, which symbolizes rationality spirituality headship and so on the good body, in the individual and in the social order is one which is obedient, which has no will or impulses of its own. And thus The Good Wife is one who subordinates her will to the will of her husband, who has children, for the relationship and for the state, but does not express impulses of her own. While the body that expresses its own impulses expresses its own desires, is viewed negatively as bad. That's the corner woman, the sexual woman who tempts others to sin. And so what happens is that when you start out with one dualism, or the the dualisms, male, female mind body, you end up creating a whole host of daughters, good woman, bad woman, porn, a woman, virtuous woman, and so on. And then the same dualism is projected on to other oppressed groups so that you have the sensual black woman, the earthy black woman, or the black man who can't wait to rape white women. And it seems to me that in the issue of homosexuality in Wichita, this kind of dualism was very heavily drawn on the homosexual represent sexuality run amok, so that the issue of Do you want your children taught by a homosexual became very important and what was being played on? Were people's fears of the body fear of sexuality, and the notion that the homosexual is defined through his or her sexuality, so that the homosexual is nothing but a sexual person, and you're not being your child isn't being taught by a chemistry teacher or an English teacher, but by a homosexual, who's going to convert him or her to homosexuality. Now, the ultimate symbolic expression of this dualism of the ultimate projection of this dualism is the image of God as male spirit. And the anthropologist of religion, Clifford gifts, has pointed out that religious symbols function in two directions, they function as models of divine reality and models for the social order. So that when we use male language to talk about God as we do, and our male language by by male language, I mean, not simply the fact that we talk about God using male pronouns, but also that we image him in male terms as Lloyd King, Shepherd, father, and so on. We are both imaging the divine reality and providing a model for the social order. And when ZIL read that passage from Jerry Falwell, which he says that the woman who's subordinate to her husband isn't being subordinate to her husband, but to Christ, I think we have here the fusion of religious symbolism, with authority in the social structure, and I noticed that everyone laughed. But it really is very amusing because it has enormous power in people's lives. One of the things that I find very striking about the image of God as male, and I can't decide whether this is an Inext inextricable part of male image is that the power of God is a power over others. God has power over his creation, the world is in the hand of God, God has power to punish and to reward and the power of God has traditionally been imaged is not a power which empowers it's a power, which is a power over others. And this also becomes a model for the social order that we think of power in society, as power over others. And of course, those who symbolize spirit as God symbolizes the Spirit. Those who are male, as God is male, are the ones who are then entitled to power in the social order over all those groups, women, blacks, homosexuals, who represent the body, in the social order. Now the household tables in the New Testament, which are found in several letters traditionally attributed to Paul but which many people today would say a not a pulling washes for the ship, explicitly use this divine image to establish right order within the Christian family. Wives be subordinate to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church, the male image of power over explicitly being invoked in order to enforce the subordination of women in the home and in the social order. And of course, it's precisely these verses That or appeal to again and again, by the Moral Majority, whenever issues concerning the entry of women into society come up.

Unknown Speaker  15:11
And at the same time that these verses and these models work for family relationships, they also provide models for the whole social order, so that the task of women in the social order is to represent the body. And I think that this is very much tied into the public's private split, that Zillow was talking about the the public world is the world of rationality. And the private world is the world of reproduction, which women represent and are supposed to stay in. And women must be flesh, but well ordered flesh, which means flesh, subject to rational control, which means flesh, subject to male control. And I think that this ideology, which is present through through the theology, of Western religious traditions, through the liturgy of church and synagogue, is there as a kind of substructure to be called on when specific issues need to be addressed. And when groups like the Moral Majority then call on their constituents, in order to make certain kinds of political decisions.

Unknown Speaker  16:30
I would like to follow through on some of these lines of thought, and basically to point out, or at least hope to point out the connections between the kinds of things that Judith was talking about, and pointing to, and tie them into the understanding of the ramifications politically, economically, and interpersonally. And then, to take one example from the Roman Catholic tradition, to show how this is done, I want to mention something about the Roman Catholic it's, it's a concern of mine, especially with the the focus on moral majority and knew right, and fundamentalism, that we tend to think this is all going on, sometimes in that camp and can sit back and say, I am not a fundamentalist, or my particular tradition is not it's my feeling that the traditions are all basically doing the same thing. And it is not the case that it's the Moral Majority fundamentalist group. That is the only one doing it. And I coming out of the Roman Catholic tradition feel very strongly that this is the case, they do it differently. But they're doing and reinforcing exactly the same kinds of image power and direct political action power. There's a quote in the introduction to a book called the malleus Maleficarum. That I'd like to start out with because it, it draws the connection very well between the question of women and religion, and all of the other political, economic things in that introduction, although Summers is talking about heretics, we can assume the heretics is talking about even though he names a few men are women. And he says that the aim of the threat posed by heresy and therefore posed by the witches is to quote the abolition of the monarchy, the abolition of private property and of inheritance, the abolition of marriage, the abolition of order, and the total abolition of all religion. And it's those connections that are very, very important. In fact, that quote is accurate in a way that any shifting and dissolution of the patriarchal control of women wouldn't shake up the order structure and I think that was not only perceived by summers, but is perceived consciously by the male powers and the religious traditions today. So taking in mind these connections, political, economic, interpersonal, and religious.

Unknown Speaker  18:54
I want to suggest that there's a major thread in these connections in any society, at least that I'm familiar with. And that is that to keep these power realities, intact, the power realities of patriarchy intact and functioning, women must be controlled, and they must be controlled in conformity with the needs and aims of the patriarchal structures. One of the reasons why you find fluxes in history between greater participation in social fabric for women and less participation is that these controls are used for the specific purposes and aims of the society and everything at any given moment. If we look at the Middle Ages, post world war two and then our present society, what we find is that there is a movement toward greater participation of women. And then when a certain level is reached, there's reaction and restriction once again, a focus of this control there are many ways of controlling it. But one of the focuses that each speaker this morning pointed to in her own way, is controlling women's sexuality and her reproductive power. that this area of women's lives is used as a mechanism for controlling the participation by women in the total social fabric. It's not to be looked on as simply a question. Nothing is simply a question. But this certainly is not simply a question of attitudes towards sexuality, or attitudes and images towards women's sexuality, I would suggest that it's a mechanism for controlling our total participation in the social fabric. The way this is done is through image through doctrinal teaching, and through political and economic alliances, the giving or withholding of money in different arenas, and the supporting or negating of certain political candidates and certain political movements. Now, the general pattern that I'm suggesting, I've already indicated, is that there's a greater participation allowed women, when you have a situation in society that needs that needs an economic base built that is in the emerging of an economic base of a given society, you're going to find women drawn in as participation primarily in labor force. When you find the benefits or stability of that given society, reaching a level where either the benefits can be enjoyed, or where it appears to be that the benefits can only be enjoyed by a few, as I think the perception is today in our economic economic situation, then you will find women systematically excluded and repressed, so that as society moves toward a level of stability and participation of benefits, women, then will be restricted and pushed back into the realm of home and family. All cultural patterns, I would suggest do this, with respect to women and religion is one of the cultural patterns that is used in this way. Now, how is this done? One of the ways it's done Judith pointed to that is you accelerate the already existing structures, that sub ideological structure that you mentioned, is what I'm getting at here. It's always functioning, it's always there. But when the need for greater restriction and control of women seems to appear useful, those are accelerated, heightened, and use in a very restricting way, so that women and women's autonomy is always controlled, held in check allowed relative play, but beyond a certain limit, and given a certain economic description of the society, then you have repressive reaction, that is what I feel is going on today, very strongly. Society is shaped along certain lines, I mentioned the needs and aims of patriarchal society, and it's shaped according to those needs and aims. And I mentioned just several points, general points that I see first, society must reflect the autonomy, of male period that male equals autonomy, and superiority. Secondly, that enforced heterosexuality, the derivative nature of woman, I'll mention that a little bit later. But in forest heterosexuality is a means of keeping the power realities intact.

Unknown Speaker  23:12
And that this function is very, very strongly. Third, that woman is viewed primarily in terms of society as the self emptying, unit, self emptying for the needs, and purposes of patriarchy. She provides the labor force when needed, she provides the life support system, within marriage, for patriarchal Economic Society, she provides the children for the army as well as for the church, that this is what she's used for. She's a conduit for generation, actual generation of children and for regeneration of male achievement, she provides the the energy for this and forth, there is also going on with this the usurpation of what come to be seen as women's positive attributes, while at the same time denying the embodied woman, this is the split, and how it serves to function in society, you can appropriate what you are calling positive feminine attributes. And you can deny the embodied woman I taught at a seminary for a number of years and in talking with the psychologists who did the the priest profiles, they they said to me, what we're looking for are men who score high on the feminine scale. Okay. And that that's what they want. They naturally those tests why? Sure, we can say lots about the nature of these tests, but nevertheless, it was the perception of the men that they wanted men who were feminine, but did not want as you will know, embodied which was woman. So this is a small example. But I suggest this works at all levels. And I saw this consistently, when I was at the seminary and consistently in media. You just have to look around you now with all of these very general remarks, I'd like to take a quote from one of Pope John Paul the seconds talks when he was here visiting the United States. This is a specific quote from a specific talk of a specific religious tradition. But to me, it illustrates what is the functioning purpose a religious traditions in America and I and I don't know enough to talk about other societies, but I would suggest it goes on there as well. I'm going to quote from a talky game of the nature of Mary, what Mary's contribution was and place was in terms of the Roman Catholic theology and church. And I'm going to to break this apart so I can make some comments about it. I'm quoting now the Pope, the woman, the woman, dominates all history as the Virgin Mother of the son. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit, the woman who becomes by association with her son, okay, you've got in that one phrase, an emphasis on some okay and emphasis on the sun and emphasis on the derivative nature of woman. All right, that's one thing. Woman is derivative she is only to be understood it all in her association and through her association with man with maleness. Okay, you've got the disembodied woman. If anyone can figure out a way of being a virgin mother, they should let me know right to a sphere. We haven't gotten Partha geneticists perfected yet, but that virgin mother phrase is a very important one to look at as Dr. And I believe it's not just Yes, yes, always the Catholic Church. Exactly, exactly. And it comes from this image, this image reinforces that split, the disembodied aspect of woman immediately, just by the phrase, virgin, virgin mother, the quote goes on the woman who was inserted into the mystery of the church, without herself being inserted into the hierarchy of the church, okay, now catch the impact of the word inserted. Right, no autonomy being allowed at all in any of these quotes. But here, it's so strongly imaged by the word inserted into the mystery, not inserted into the hierarchy, okay? The denial of autonomy of women strongly comes out. And the exclusion of woman, she is there for a purpose, she was inserted into the mystery of the church, why to provide the conduit for the son. But in terms of any kind of equality of leadership, or power, or hierarchical play, she's excluded immediately. And yet, the quote goes on, this woman made all hierarchy possible, because she gave to the world, the shepherd and bishops of our souls made hierarchy possible.

Unknown Speaker  27:52
The control of women in this manner, is actually linked to what I was talking about when I said that woman controlled in this way, supports and makes possible the patriarchal power realities. And I think this was perceived and is perceived. And certainly reflected in this statement, the self emptying image, again, a woman for the needs and aims of patriarchy, she is virgin mother, the quote goes on prefigures and anticipates the courage of all women who concur in bringing forth Christ read sons in every generation, concur. Agree, submit, go along with never even hear active, autonomous action, she then is to to be modeled by all of us in terms of our concurring in bringing forth Christ sons for the purpose of society, and then quoting again, never to leave him, never to abandon him. But to continue to love and serve him through the ages. There'll be good reading that at all the marriage ceremonies in a few years. And he ends this section by saying the woman who speaks to us of femininity, clearly supposed to be the image and the rules of behavior for what women are about. This one example, in terms of what what the mechanisms of control are, should be linked to some places where we find these mechanisms operate. Operating. I'll just mentioned these I don't I don't want to take up too much time putting this out. Judith has already mentioned them, I would like to simply reinforce it. There is focus on the anti abortion movement and birth control in this country where this this has become a focal point for for the activity of the church in their teaching in where they're putting their money and where they're putting their energy. You can see it too and what the church is talking about and in the time of the explosive economic and nuclear war questions and racial questions. The Roman Catholic Church has sought fit to to convene a bishop centered on the family. What was spoken of this morning supports this so, so well that the family is an issue that they want to get back to. In 73, they issued a major, a major Vatican document on sexual ethics, which reinforces much of what the tradition has been talking about. And the pope in his recent Vatican hamamelis for six weeks, chose to speak on sexuality, within marriage. Those Those are the main focuses in spite of all the stuff that we're facing as a as an international community, you find it in the charismatic movement of the Catholic Church, strong movement, any of you who have any contact with this, I would suggest that the charismatic movement as as significant for understanding the direction of the Roman Catholic Church, as the fundamentalist movement, so forth is in terms of are trying to come to terms with the new rights, that there you have man as the spiritual head of the family, which means man as the actual factual head of society and family, you have the focus on family unity, very strongly coming out in the charismatic movement. I've already mentioned the family focus. The Charismatic Movement is simply a it takes many forms in the Catholic Church, but it's basically a group of individuals who focus on the the actions, curiosity of the Holy Spirit, much lies, the Pentecostals, doing the Protestant tradition, there are differences and I don't want to make those easy equations. But it's that kind of a of a group need to live? Well,

Unknown Speaker  31:43
it's the Holy Spirit within really.

Unknown Speaker  31:47
They think they have a corner on the Holy Spirit, and

Unknown Speaker  31:51
some of it is aborning. Falls close to the board again. Yes, there's a large that's it, there's a large healing. Some of them are now calling themselves the ones that I'm familiar with. They're psycho psychologists. And they heal in the context of counseling situations. This is very pervasive and very strong. These these are strong movements, but it's basically that kind of a Holy Spirit Pentecostal reception of the gift, and the theology which surrounds it other than the, the, what we call technical theology, but the theology in terms of the relation between male female is very much male is the spiritual head, obey what what was quoted this morning, obey the husband, because in that you are obeying the Lord. I mean, those those could be coming right out with the charismatic quotes Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker  32:47
Garrity from Newark, New Jersey, has an article in our local paper where he went on a document deacons because we're going to last for the word, family.

Unknown Speaker  33:00
Yes.

Unknown Speaker  33:03
And they are like that. That's right. Missionary. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker  33:06
Exactly. Exactly. That what you find happening with the deacons is what the process has been dealing with the Protestant women who have some concerns in this area in terms of the minister's wife, the wives of the deacons have become ministers wives. And it's parallel to what's happening in much of the Protestant sector. But yes, get back to that. I want to also emphasize the lesbianism homosexuality focus strong in the Catholic community, they are beginning to mention lesbians. Whereas prior to that, you would only hear homosexuality mentioned they're doing it in the majority. I noticed a couple of quotes recently, where lesbianism is beginning to be mentioned, again, the church did it in its official document. In confessors, guidelines to confess is where they mentioned lesbianism again, the 19 body women however, they said it's easier to counsel women because they don't need sex as much. But lesbianism was particularly mentioned, this area of lesbianism and homosexuality is very, very important to understand and to try to, to do something about the church is using this strongly to shore up the family and therefore to shore up the patriarchal society and as this morning's talk so solely, well indicated, and then fifth promiscuity but promiscuity as non marital promiscuity. The Church does not talk much about the evils, right. They don't say much about insects, they don't so much about white feeding. They don't say much about any of that. Because that, in effect is not threatening the structures. And that's why they don't say I'm not saying that the you ask appreciate men beat their wives. No, no, no. But we have to look at this in terms of the actual functioning structures. They do not say anything about that. They do say a lot about promiscuity, promiscuity, non marital promiscuity, and youth promiscuity. Those are the two areas that they want to control into terms of women's behavior. So these reinforce and are reinforced by all the other cultural patterns that political and economic. And I think we have to take a look at these. I'm gonna stop now. Meeting. Ran go ahead I try to have a discussion right. I'd like to pick up on

Unknown Speaker  35:21
the last thing you said on the promiscuity the they do condemn promiscuity, the married woman and having an affair and so on so forth. But when it comes to things like female sexual slavery, or the multinational sex, this has been called, you know, the importation of sex tours from Japan to the Philippines and all that. The church said nothing about that. Even in the Philippines, whether the Roman Catholic Church is strong, they've never protested and the the women are used by the multinational corporations, either in the factory or in the hotels or with the, with the travel agencies as hostesses. Yes, they are. And they and the church has not gone into that. And it's, it's worldwide, this whole thing if you read Catherine Berry's book, and if you read there's another book that's called multinational female sexual slavery female sexual sway by Katherine Newbury. And then there's another book but I don't think it's been published here. It was published in Japan called multinational sex. And it's on the sex tours of any country that the church doesn't know anybody has been

Unknown Speaker  36:48
use of women and use of women's sexuality that fits in with patriarchal structures is rarely hit on by the organized religious groups anything which which begins to be marginal in terms of threatening those structures or or exhibiting some kind of autonomous decision and choice by women is going to be cutting down on very dense right.

Unknown Speaker  37:12
I wonder what

Unknown Speaker  37:14
you can suggest to us about the use of working within the system. That is do you know about successful feminist groups within any branches of any churches?

Unknown Speaker  37:34
I do. The women who are ordained Episcopalian Church have what they call mother thunder mission. Taking her name's I'm a member of under thunders prep. Well, the ones in New York I don't know if they extend beyond New York, but they meet on Saturday nights at 630 in the village worship service and the first one, my husband I went to was standing remotely. And they have a worship service concerning the 630 Unbelievable,

Unknown Speaker  38:11
and non sexist and non sexist

Unknown Speaker  38:12
and I think it's remarkable. There are nuns now who are who are Catholic Sisters, who are writing a lot of their own liturgy. And when they are allowed why they do I have a sister who is a friend who is now a chaplain at a university for what two inch CW post. What's interesting is the dioceses paying her salary, not not the college. And she is but she cannot get communion I guess that she can do with all the other things. So there are some some women who are organizing somebody else to serve

Unknown Speaker  39:01
St. John's and Waverly Place in 11th. Place really stupid to the point of 11th, street and Waverly

Unknown Speaker  39:12
and it's really great Greenwich Village.

Unknown Speaker  39:17
So I think there are a couple of levels here in which we can talk about organizing within every tradition there are women organizing for full rights within the tradition and is the woman's ordination conference in the Catholic Church, struggling for ordination there's grow the group for the rabbinical ordination of women within Judaism. There are women writing liturgy in communities all over the country congregations all over the country. That's one level. The other level is organizing. I don't know whether around religious issues is the right word or with religious concerns in order to work for it. social and political change in the wider society in order to counteract the taking over of religion by groups like Moral Majority. I mean, what I find so distressing about groups like the Moral Majority is that the implication is that they know what religion is and have the only correct interpretation of it.

Unknown Speaker  40:21
Selected and selective interpretation.

Unknown Speaker  40:24
That's really my customers. Judas, when you said about responding from the substructure and playing on people's fears, I'm here to expand on that a little bit and help teachers and counselors can work with young people who are inundated with no mind, or proselytizing by organs or any members, you know, other branches of religious organizations which are dedicated to that other people that I've ever particularly wanted to. Know your right accent as?

Unknown Speaker  41:12
Well, this was an issue that I faced all the time in Wichita, that students who were uncomfortable with the traditional religious perspective simply didn't know how to answer when somebody came with them, came with the Bible and said, it says here was the subordinate to your husband. And what I always tried to do well, first of all, within that kind of context, it was always necessary to remain within the biblical tradition and to argue with it. I mean, there was no point ever in saying, Well, you know, the Bible was written 2000 years ago, and we have different problems today. And maybe we don't need to worry about what it did. For instance, there was you couldn't say that, which is how I got on this panel trying to prove that the Bible was not supposed to have human sexuality. Quite a trick. But I mean, that was, those were the terms in which you have to argue, and when I always try to communicate to students, where are the ambiguities in the text that the Bible itself is? Well, certainly the weight of the Bible is on the side of the subordination of women. But there are ambiguities and contradictions within the text. And that means that the choice to emphasize certain passages is a choice, and must be understood within a particular social and political and economic context. And to say, if we read the text, without any bias, this is what it says, is simply forth. The text says many different things. And one chooses which text to elevate for reasons which have nothing to do with the text. What you need to if you want no I'm serious, I mean, people, people who were people who were inundated by this stuff and don't know how to answer need to begin to see. I mean, to me, this is this is part of the problem that people have in different religious perspective, how do we communicate that religion is something more than opening up the text and reading a series of quotes from it, and applying that in a heavy handed way to present issues? So I think part of what's involved is educating people to a different view of religious hostility.

Unknown Speaker  43:39
I think that we need to understand that the Bible is not a book, but a library of books, and that there have been many interpretations of the Bible. And it is now being interpreted again. So that there is a new Bible to come out with inclusive language, a lot of controversy. But everybody's language they make what's known, and that historically, if, in the book called times, if shepherds were indeed men, they shall say, Shepherd, but if shelters were both men and women, and that God course shall be referred to and answered. And I know having visited the Vatican, I happen to be Protestant. But I think artists too, in religious imagery. I think we have been, we've distorted facts. And certainly, blacks will view crisis being black or guy being black. And why is God and very human form the Sistine Chapel to I thought the very lackadaisical fashion totally and there was no really sort of like this And then when I saw the data which was beautiful, and I looked at the Virgin Mary mother was crucified Christ cross her lap with the Crown thorns complete. And Christ being what 31 to 33 times crucifixion. The Virgin Mary, I'm talking today in the dryness of Jerusalem should not look younger than crucify Christ

Unknown Speaker  45:29
regenerated his mother, I thought that how unkind. Yeah, your mother should be younger than the ages, right? So today

Unknown Speaker  46:01
I'm curious to ask

Unknown Speaker  46:05
you what I have seen myself it has very little to do with intellectual ability to grasp the intellectual concept of all these things, but has more to deal with the internalized use of symbols. Usually people do or take examples of what it means to be human, that shows those symbols that being part of something bigger than yourself, which allows you the stamp to do sometimes they they have caught off on they're not able to find another service as well. So what I see happening is that what happened to the intellectual grasp of the injustice is to turn away from this the course of that diligent

Unknown Speaker  47:11
in your life, and I wonder

Unknown Speaker  47:13
if there are people who are doing more, again, in those counseling areas to address those kinds of issues, because they are so deep sleep, and I really see the people that collections. A mess

Unknown Speaker  47:30
it seems to me that though it's so difficult to articulate the the specific relationships between symbol system and social structure, that it's so clear that they are there, and that symbols reverberate at all levels of people's lives and make certain social structures seem right and proper and fitting. As they cohere with the symbol system, how does one begin to change then the basic images of the tradition because I think you're quite right, that you know, one can argue Bible passage against Bible passage forever. And it doesn't really speak to the level on which people are experiencing the nation.

Unknown Speaker  48:14
What you're saying is how do we demystify the symbols because symbols per se, are placed there because what they represent cannot be articulated. So do you use the symbol right? Now how do you demystify the symbol? And that is how you create Newsome Exactly,

Unknown Speaker  48:32
exactly can live for people in a different social. I would

Unknown Speaker  48:40
suggest that each person has a 20th century pliers, each person that they relate to the symbols they care about on their own terms and begin to work with Jesus means something to me,

Unknown Speaker  48:53
we want to be in the horrifying patriarchal figure

Unknown Speaker  48:57
that I have to rework that image. Look at Jesus, talk to him. psychotically, and, you know, material, and I think if I may say so about the women, religious and every single, whatever, Buddhist, Baptist everything, I think we're no great because I think the first thing was to do is to flee any organized religion. And that's also stated like it isn't last, sheer hatred from the older to us and every service and the big problems are negative about the women who have left the tradition. I mean,

Unknown Speaker  49:31
is that is that the language you use seems to indicate that those women who was founded that they fought for their own reasons in terms of their own autonomy left the tradition you seem to place it as a negative as those who have gone out or kind of no longer. Isn't that often you come

Unknown Speaker  49:50
right to the heart of the matter. I suspect I think there's snakes in the grass. Because I think the responsibility of people They have images that work through is to turn around and look at the image and, and work with it and work it through. And that's I think women will get their greatest training on second and sacred if they'll do that. The structure presently would make me run immediately to Acapulco and the title beach.

Unknown Speaker  50:20
But I think there's a serious problem with reworking symbols, that is that they convey a meaning despite or reworking, I mean from the Jewish tradition, which I come out of, there are many women reinterpreting the symbol of mikvah. Traditionally, the Jewish woman was to go to the ritual bath, seven days after her menstrual period, to purify herself so that she could resume sexual relations with her husband. And this conveyed it I don't think it did originally, but historically, it certainly has conveyed an image of women's uncleanness, untouchable, Miss impurity and so on. Now, many women are reinterpreting that symbol, in very exciting and lovely ways. This is an acknowledgement of women's simplicity within the tradition, and it enables women to get in touch with their cycle, and so on and so on. That's very nice. But the fact is that every time you walk into a mixer, you support a system that is oppressive to women. And every time you reinterpret Jesus in a way that makes sense to you, you still have the male figure symbol there that says, Wow,

Unknown Speaker  51:30
I want to say we talk about jobs. I used to run the tools I was about to say when we talk about religion, like I said, it was really Celtic or Irish Catholic is different. I learned a lot. But I've never read the Bible because I was told not to. My husband's a Methodist and our son is a generalist, so he's. Okay, but I've never read the book. I have not read the book, but I will read it in experience, okay, so I'm ready to read the Bible and I have been homeless. Read the other ones. I also wanted to bring up the charges. And I'm not clear that's happening this weekend. And while the drawing was so supportive of washing machines thing, and he's been told to stay out of politics now. New Jersey state there's another term for this my speaking video on exorcism. And it's another judgment as I speak at Princeton University, on on gay man and woman and how they would like to make life or how they, they're likely their lifestyle will contribute to the humanity of our worlds. So why don't they want to be not a conspiracy, they just they weren't immune to everything. Finding the right way back somewhere, it's a it's an intellectual.

Unknown Speaker  53:28
There's, I think I want to say something about right now. No, I would, I would almost always take a stance against looking to any male representatives of any religious tradition and worrying about what they're not worrying about what they're doing. But in terms of looking to those as some kind of good thing, regardless of what they're talking about, especially if they're talking about feminism. There's a there's a tendency you can find in that I have found in the church where very nice things can be said. That's what I meant by that certain level. That is reached the charm, Elise Boulding, use the phrase when she was describing something going on in the Middle Ages, where you had a tremendous evangelical awakening, and women. She said, the charismatic face of the church, and here she was using it in terms of the nice sounding words about women and equality and spiritual equality. And the place of women in the church, the charismatic face of the church can smile, smile down on the women, while the bureaucratic elements can clamp down on women's initiatives. In other words, this whole idea of what are they are they talking about in terms of seeming to say positive things about this area or that area, or feminism or equality in the church or the inclusive language area I find this a dangerous and not a positive thing because the inclusive language is still is still set in the symbol structure of the tradition to say so you can you can Get inclusive language to a point. But you have to recognize that what you got sale are the symbolic structures of the god imagery of the notion of divinity, of the attributes of divinity, which are male set in the architectural structure, which reflects the hierarchical male facing an altar, which still in the traditions and the promises included is predominantly male. And that's a symbol that functions as symbol. So I think, I don't know, I guess I'm just trying to say, the complexity of the is more than saying, well, some of them are starting to say nice things. And isn't that good or inclusive language is coming in? I would I would suggest that that that has to be looked at in the total structure of what's going on symbolically and ideologically in the tradition and cannot be grasped on as putting any kind of hope in.

Unknown Speaker  55:48
Do you think that the only solution is a kind of Mother Goddess revival? You know, which I understand is going on, you know, in a lot of feminist groups,

Unknown Speaker  55:58
I just want to say something to him. And I don't I don't I? Well, I guess, for those women who are working in that I I see I see some problems with it just in terms of one my own proclivities, I'm not a person who is ritualistic in any sense, so that that the rituals, the goddess rituals, and so forth, aren't just to my tastes. But I, I'm waiting to see I mean, I think there are some exciting things going on. I think there's some good things, I have some question about the goddess imagery, myself, but I don't see. In other words, for me to, to use mother father. To use goddess imagery is such a small aspect, I'm more interested in the total how things are functioning as a unit. And that that is what has to be looked at. Because I, I have seen where certain things can change, but they change in terms of being co opted, you can take on the way, the way Madison Avenue takes on images of the Women's Liberation Movement, for example. Now it looks like it's, it looks like women's liberation, but in fact, it's walk into the structures that can happen and is happening in religious traditions were the CO opting what they want to from the women's movement, I don't know I'm unclear about but

Unknown Speaker  57:21
I'd like to add to that on the CO optation At this point, because this is what's happening in the Episcopal Church, where the women were ordained in 1974. And it was the first wave of feminists. And then now the women, even some of them who were feminists, I'm not talking about the, the Philadelphia Illuminati, because they are they remain pure feminists. But the ones who have been ordained say feminists who were ordained, say, last year or the year before, now are being co opted by the Episcopal Church. So much so that the ones who were I was just talking to one of the Philadelphia 11, before one of my friends from Philadelphia, just before I came to this workshop, and we were discussing this, and she says that not only that, but those who come who are in the seminary now and who profess very strong feminist attitudes, or just plain feminist attitudes are barred from ordination now, because there's enough women coming up for ordination. And they're being totally co opted by the system. They're being made made into male.

Unknown Speaker  58:29
That's why I say, when we talk about where the possibilities for change for women that there are, what do we do we talk so when we do piece of the pie within Patriarca, what exactly are we talking about? An understanding of religion, which goes out to the transformation to this isn't this stop me short

Unknown Speaker  58:45
for more nations, I want to have no part of it.

Unknown Speaker  58:51
The other way around. Etiology is the destruction. Religion is really negotiated on a personal level in like women's Bible study using things like this so that we should get in terms of belief, and an action at that level is not a real representation of the power structure. It's renegotiated. So in other words, it's not the CO option looking the other way around. If you take for example, the neo pentecostal charismatic movement and consider the fact that women in terms of numbers could conduit and what was going on there is that you have in terms of symbols you have Jesus God the Father and the Holy Spirit and the most important of these is the Holy Spirit, which is you don't have to do by didn't include inclusive language because the Holy Spirit is an asexual being. So like the fact that this is essentially important image and symbol for women in the charismatic human I think says something about what's going on. I mean, I think what's been forgotten talking about this kind of structure is women's national experiences this themselves the fact that it all religions in the United States, at least limit women in terms numerically to show up more interesting messages, and what does that mean to women? Okay, what are they doing? Why are they going to church? We can if we keep seeing them as victims, victims of this, of this power structure of this ideology being depressing them and not seeing what they're doing actually is about ideology, I think we missed a key feature of why they even bother going

Unknown Speaker  1:00:18
to church. What do they do? Well,

Unknown Speaker  1:00:21
I think in the in the, my experience of the neo pentecostal, or charismatic Christians is that the Bible study groups, women have my sense of Islam in suburban New Jersey. And it's a tremendous support. For women, it's a huge network of women, they find otherwise they're isolated into their, you know, this is broken home. So this is some some way legitimate sort of way that they form these bonds. And it tends, in many cases to be set up. So it's against their husband, their husbands don't like the fact that they're involved so much. Better, to just say, so much time going. And it's psycho, it's just tremendously supportive. There's so much love and so much support going on there for women who have no resource for that they won't go to consciousness raising group, something like that, but there is a certain kind of feminism going on,

Unknown Speaker  1:01:11
like going to now.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:14
But aren't these aren't these

Unknown Speaker  1:01:16
women also allowed to prophesy.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:19
That's that's another,

Unknown Speaker  1:01:20
which I think is a powerful, isn't

Unknown Speaker  1:01:21
it is that it allows women through prophecies and speaking in tongues, it allows women the power of God, which is a structural position of the normal church that that's, you know, taken by the male hierarchy. But in this case, it's, you know, it's

Unknown Speaker  1:01:39
I like to say something, I'm sitting here, this continues to stop Christian and charismatic, and my baby to go ahead and have myself and I'm sitting here listening to what one, I think as a woman, my experience with God in Jesus Christ has been unique. And I, I see everyone getting caught up in the symbolic traditions and rituals of the church and trying to change them. And I'm thinking, Well, my relationship with God is not caught up into the symbols that, and maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm being heard set and the power structure. And I'm sitting here wondering, is it possible, you know, are people saying that it's possible, it's not possible to be feminist and be organized religion. And I'm getting very mixed feelings about the whole thing, because I think you're limiting the choices of some women and some women choose, choose religion, and she choose to get an individualized experience out of it. Okay. And I think it's very important for me not to alienate any other people, okay, including men, including women with a different viewpoint, because some women see God, in their own image, don't see him in the symbolic images that the church has typically portrayed. And I think that view has been, has not been represented here at all. And I can see why.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:06
I think it's because we don't ever hear the image of women in biblical passages that refer to female, God is female.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:15
Doesn't have to be female. I

Unknown Speaker  1:03:17
know. But But, but when you do hear

Unknown Speaker  1:03:19
in the liturgy, or references or even passages scripture that's read, rarely is God is like

Unknown Speaker  1:03:31
they're just not even there are they? But no now is always masculine, so that we fail

Unknown Speaker  1:03:37
to see ourselves later. That's why

Unknown Speaker  1:03:40
I guess the clip comes in what I got today, she was said that as you need to study and read the Bible for yourself, whatever is the basis and foundation of your belief, any person who read the Bible, okay, I think we'll come out with a feeling that God is not a huge a male human being, nor Is God a female human being has been interpreted, okay. And we all come from different religious beliefs. And I'm not trying to figure it out. But I think the key word is studying and not accepting the podium, as it sits up there and saying these symbolic rituals or features determine what my personal beliefs are,

Unknown Speaker  1:04:20
but this raises very, very complex and important questions. I mean, I agree that obviously women have found enormous value and support in religious tradition and that we can't afford to ignore that. And well, I think it'd be example of traditional Judaism in which the separation between the sexes has been extreme, and in which women have been able to form networks with other women networks of support and self validation and so on. But, unless these networks are used, then in a way which transforms the religion and the society if they are co opted into the broader structure, which is oppressive

Unknown Speaker  1:04:59
depends on what you believe society is. And if you think society is only the power structure in their daily lives, Jimmy is not part of society. You know what I'm saying? You have to believe that women are part of society, you don't have to be the power structure to be part of society.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:17
Yeah, but because the broader power structures are operating in a way, which is against the interests of women, and what a women's have a women using their religious experience, in order to affect the wife structures of which they are polite, and which can harm them, I think about the issue of abortion in particular. I mean, there is an alliance now, between Protestant Catholic and Orthodox Jewish groups to make abortion illegal in this country, how does have a women going to use whatever value we get from tradition to make that impossible? Because if we just say, well, we have our networks, it's all great. It's wonderful. The woman's going to be passing when

Unknown Speaker  1:05:58
there's also our car, religious Coalition for abortion rights. But I think

Unknown Speaker  1:06:04
you're taking one fraction or two fractions or three fractions of what, and I don't like this term at all religious people are saying and moving towards I think you're hearing a portion of people, okay? Stand up for their beliefs, who happened to be what you call religious people and interpreting that as religion?

Unknown Speaker  1:06:25
No, I'm not, I'm not at all. On the contrary, you know, I'm saying we had we who have a different view of religion have to make our voices heard, saying it's political.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:37
Or using a political

Unknown Speaker  1:06:40
one, you know, I was very interested in this conference, and won't come here, I hear us getting a little bit away from it. This workshop was

Unknown Speaker  1:06:50
to look at

Unknown Speaker  1:06:53
the control mechanisms of organized religion. And I agree with you, I happen to consider myself a very fortunate person, I mean, I grew up going to Canada, I cannot remember teaching. And I come back, as many of the nuns that I've worked with in my college in a very fortunate position, so not caring. I can't go to church, and those may have simple can be very good. And I consider myself fortunate, and I can take an individual attitudes, but in the environment in which I find myself working now to the college, women's college, and still predominantly Irish. And I look at those students. And I see the strong that they have, because they have grown up with organized religion that has been mailed and requested to them. And some of you may end up turning away totally from their faith in their religion, because they cannot overcome those images. I agree with you that we I don't think anybody is saying that women have not made a move in the church. To have a continent, I think women can I think we need a statement about the women religious in all positions, particularly the Catholic churches are so overwhelmed by indignity and find the courage to do that. But I think if we don't look to the structures, because kids are going up, still in those structures, kids are going to Catholic schools, and the latest statistics are that 53% of children and most of those headed by women, and yet they're only interested in a god from kindergarten on, and you know, to say as an individual if I have an adolescent and not look to that pastor, and what that does to other people, I think plays into I think plays into all of that plays into what you said about the seminars are looking for men with female characteristics. You just did a whole bunch of stuff with my team. Yeah. It's important to, not to the pessimist, that if you

Unknown Speaker  1:09:20
think you're into issues and you're interconnected. And we can't we sort of keep bouncing back and forth between the radical injustice feminist scholars and our political injustice, feminists are feeling up against the wall. And a good point that you're raising the raising, I'm sorry that I should be raising my voice. Like one of my legs, I'll use an idealized example because my reaction meeting Mary Daly was to follow me it was really interesting to me and she was identifying all of these horrors and on the other hand, I felt like she wasn't her very critique. Re if I'm a male who was structured reifying male theology is as religion as opposed to the experience of women throughout history that participate consistently, really out, although it hasn't stopped existing. I did well, I got very stopped, like religiously atheistic and became very curious about that. My grandparents were tested, you know, what I'm due to study about makeup revival in a particular religious community. And I was really, in my encounter with that, as a feminist who came in there thinking, this can only be an instrument of social control in the sense of oppressing women, I got turned down the process of year and a half of relationships with these women, and observing what was going on. And seeing that the revival, this kind of ritual in this particular case was working for women as a way of good women were, in a sense, they're working within a certain structure, like they went to altogether leave the community, because he happened to be Syrian Jewish community, in Brooklyn, if they wanted to, they weren't gonna leave until all community and all the social networks and everything that their lives were about from day one, the maker offered them a way of controlling men's sexuality. And then when people had the option of promiscuity of these elderly living into a life that was limited and had the option of doing and using this kind of ritual, I mean, it wasn't that it was necessarily so self restricted, it was a way of getting some kind of a guarantee of the relationship with men and men sexuality. And I mean, it's it's going at this point, you can't take the male theology that's been written down as the gospel and that women are continually experiencing renegotiating these kinds of experiences. And I feel like one, we have to respect that. And we have to find those traditions. And we have to not accept that scenarios, a priori of of the avenue ideology that says public is valid, and the private is not and that, you know, when I sat here in homes, observing what was going on, and what was the experience of a little child, their relationship to their mother, and all the preparation for holidays, and everything that was going on the home is so much more primary than what happened to them in synagogue and what they heard until much later age. And and and I think that, first of all, I feel like we're forgetting about that aspect of socialization, that aspect of religious experience, and so forth. And I feel also in terms of our political commitment, to just write off all these women in the new writer, whatever and say, I mean, I feel like we're putting them in that same victimized category. I'm personally extremely interested in what I do research on what's going on, and why they're doing this. Because if we don't address if we don't take take it seriously, I'm just saying, why are they doing this? Why are they embracing these things that we feel restricted towards us, we're not going to get in and we're not gonna learn anything, we're going to repeat all the same mistakes.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:47
Observation, can I make an observation, I don't know if it'll hold water. For five examples that you've shared, what I hear coming out, and I granted in terms of whatever positive dimensions are there, and I have to grant them I come from a Roman Catholic family working class, my mother is a very staunch faithful, not so much in terms of the rules, but she has an extremely personal faith, which you describe she, she just has that. But I've heard each of you describing how women have managed in spite of the structures to gain and glean some kind of valid, empowering experience out of that. Now I want to ask the question, why do we accept the inspite of okay, I am concerned for that in spider for two reasons. One, because it is a hindering negating repressive structure. And yes, women have always throughout history shown and that's one of the miraculous things about it, as I look more and more in history, a tremendous ability to be to be creative to and to empower and to form networks that are supportive, but it has hindered there should be no inspite of and secondly, because that in spite of had in the patriarchal society, the power controls as they interconnect with politics and economics and literature and law. That that's the reason it is a concern. And that while one can't deny that there have been movements, and very important and so satisfying, empowering situations in Catholicism or Judaism or Protestantism. I don't know that but let's throw it in. I think we can't forget that in spite of character of it. Because then we're doing what what has been one of the mechanisms as to say the private is really private now mostly the private is is political the private is so it's that why do you all assume the inspite of

Unknown Speaker  1:14:40
No, I'm not trying to make with not inspired it's like a double your get we get trapped and double finger we have to overcome double thick, I'm saying it's not that on the one hand, you can accept those cats. One of the things you can do is accept those categories. And that's my main criticism of Mary Daly. Is that you'd have to go back and find that these things exist and realize. I mean, I haven't thought about this in Judaism where you link up these egalitarian division of gender with the state structure and what happens to it or whatever can happen the whole thing in itself. But you can't. I'm not saying, Well, this validates the whole thing. And it's really lovely to, but I feel like we keep setting up in us in that category. And we're not going to I feel like we don't start understanding why women are in there. There's, I mean, you there are two ways maybe you can look at I mean, I don't think they're victims only for monsters I think they do. You know, I think there's a tragic, there's a tragedy that to the situation of a lot of women and now they've been social, I mean, dear to English said this, I think a really good piece of my life. It was a tragic situation, that they've been socialized to become something they're not being allowed to be in the fighting for the right to be what they've been brought up to be.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:59
And feminists has become so defined in such a set pattern way that when a woman chooses to be a feminist and be different, the feminist community ostracizes For that, that's what I'm saying. We're falling into the same legal and I'm saying we all of us have fallen name lingo and saying, you know, well, I'm talking about women for

Unknown Speaker  1:16:24
11 years. Which is liberation. Yeah, for all women. everywhere, everywhere, and that that liberation philosophy says you may be in your self define whatever you wish to be. It's okay. can be also self define? Your God is his arrogance is mine. My mind is Marvel's mobile, I can move on. I want to ask you is why how do women control men? By having a mitzvah?

Unknown Speaker  1:17:06
How did she win? Well, I've Okay. The other point that brings up is that you can't I feel like he taught me his model and your terms. And he came understanding things in mind when it comes to this. It has to do with the specifics of this particular community that works this way. And what it does is it a wet and pointing one was like when she I think she has the most power in terms of access, in terms of male sexuality, that's when she's been courted, when she and then are seeking out women. And agreement has to be made about how the man's going to behave sexually. And then that the women creating a new standard about how men have been essentially, is steering them in a way. I mean, in there now because this community achieve a certain level of affluence, and the man happens to be an international trade. And that's the specifics of this community are in situation where they could be very, they could turn your ministers and so forth. Women are very afraid of that. And it's a way of asserting a certain kind of morality that protect them in terms of I feel to specific today.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:04
Yes, but who was

Unknown Speaker  1:18:06
established by the women didn't establish it. It was established in Leviticus, the code

Unknown Speaker  1:18:12
runs in the car, our mothers, there was a big decline in the use of mikvah.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:15
No, no, but I mean, the mikvah itself is as an institution. As a male institution, it comes from, it comes from, from me.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:26
It was originally it was applied to all members of the community and had to do with their every members of the community relationship to God, there was a point at which it became quite annoying to women legally. And then you know, it appointment and

Unknown Speaker  1:18:40
everybody had I mean,

Unknown Speaker  1:18:42
was administration Yeah, before the seventh day it was applied to everyone in the community,

Unknown Speaker  1:18:47
whether you start from the temple because it was it for a purification use before you worship at the temple at all.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:52
Oh, I see. Okay, cycles of purity and impurity. There was a urine.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:03
from me that I see, I, you know, I've seen the video beautiful and wonderful and brings us into the religious experience of women in a living way. And yet, when you finish watching it, then what is the implication about that we don't have to change the patriarchal structures of Judaism because women have these beautiful life.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:22
No, but I see that's what I know. And then one, I think we have to study it because we have to understand it and not accept that we have those structures and start pulling out that history and saying that exists within the two sides are ongoing, and they're different. And they and I also think, if there is any group, people are going to understand that the person was the political the spiritual is public. It's these women's like, these parents have to live in it. But women I mean, they really rise in terms of their consciousness. And that sounds I feel like it's really up to us to figure out ways to you know,

Unknown Speaker  1:19:54
for me, what comes out of that time is that one creates a new Judaism which which makes no sense From the experiences that women have had, within the tradition and experiences that men have had,

Unknown Speaker  1:20:07
one of the big problems, though, is the assumption that all culture or including religion was created by men. I mean, you're using the, the concept that, that in no way is, are these religious forms for the creations at some point in time or over time of women. And a women's experience is like blocking that out. I mean, it's all there. And I absolutely agree with the writers and politically on in terms of change. But I think you have to understand I mean, right to life is a movement that includes an extraordinary amount of women. And what they're doing there is important for us to understand and can't just blindly opposes it doesn't really Foundation, and therefore that religious foundation must be clubbed. Also, you have to understand that, yes,

Unknown Speaker  1:20:47
we're only women in that and that movement, they wouldn't be heard as well as

Unknown Speaker  1:20:53
another question here. I mean, I might as well again, wouldn't have the number one no, not everything was great. And one of the things about the work that's been going on in the last five years is women uncovering incredible contributions of women. Fine, except that there's a problem of I would say that even if the majority of women white and accepted the present system, I would still come out and say it's wrong me merely quoting numbers to say that that most of the pro right movement includes women and therefore my arguments against it would be blind. It misses the point the fact that most women are in that the the pro life thing is mostly women doesn't.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:37
I mean, mostly by women, I think that's just fundamentally Yes, the connections were. Political woman on Tuesday, ranting and raving and writing books and collecting however much money I mean, that whole movement is organized by men. Among those groups,