Unknown Speaker  00:02
Both women were tired of fighting. In the 60s and 70s, picket as the lobby marched the rally to pass civil rights bill worn not not not small things, like jobs with women in their hands. The thing is that not having changed the system basically, you're now in a situation where someone like Strom Thurmond wants to repeal the law. The courts are reinterpreting and rescinding again, with a president wants to start another war, women are losing jobs in the session. And we're tired. And I think we're tired because we misjudged the nature and the resilience of the systems that have existed in flowered, staying in there was just one that she I passed around as well. Relief arrangements are ancillary economically. As a given in this discussion, whether or not what they suggested on the basis of that are good or bad, but I think the argument is sound, because welfare is government initiated and operated that necessarily support the economic system that government represents. And it's fine with that system. And it's the treatment of women that is embedded in the general position of women in the society. If women were required, for example, to prove intent to discriminate, the way blacks are now being required to do in order to get some sort of redress, I think women would be able to do so it's the whole question of proving intent is something that was meant to cut off one's ability to get redress from the welfare was developed to deal with essentially an economic class. And the issues of gender and race, as I see it were not basic considerations. There weren't academic electrical dependent variables, they just follow along from the general position of these groups in society. Women were part of a family unit subservient to men, as were children. And welfare was provided when you read the original laws, and the ones even now provided for the families of men who were unable to support them. Since women have to be supported by men, the government steps in and acts as the man in situations with whatever you do, black people have any sex in the United States, we're just not considered or not included in our earliest forms of welfare, they this was an ever present form of Monahans, benign neglect, you didn't have to stay there when they were included, which was largely illustration of the system. And this is a setting and those local prejudices, in large part not totally, but in large part are very much related to the State of the Union you're talking about. And that's what Reagan wants us to go back to. The legislation most of us know about that is the legislation, it's associated with the Roosevelt administration's response to the 1929. But traction is what made welfare and national issue here again, rather than merely a state issue, this legislation to discriminates against blacks and women. It is the legislation that affects you and me, our parents, possibly our children. And this legislation that I'd like to talk and give some specifics. Before 1935. State laws vary widely, that some states have no laws that provide for those states. In many areas of local restrictions, including refuses to give support to the children of divorced mothers or abandoned women will give support to those who deserve support and undeserving are not divorcees and abandoned women. Often a support would be denied to black women who could work the fields in the South, as well as in New York, New Jersey, just across the river has a particularly notorious record in this regard. In several regards, I understand the jersey was the last states to pick up slavery as well. But anyway, we're talking about the 1900s of getting close to about the time I was born not a long time ago. A lot of this went along with wider society, prohibitions against women who were not receiving welfare at all when it's in the wider society at the same period of time. Most married women were prohibited, for example, from working in local, municipal or state government jobs and just not allowed. female teachers, for example, would be fired if they got married. So that the situation of women in society in general was just transferred over to the welfare state. What I'd like to talk about now is known as Mikey 35. legislation includes or excludes women out controls and declined, evaluates. And the first thing we'll talk about is the aid to dependent children ABC category, which was the first one passed, and it was part of the Campbell series of laws under Social Security, okay, and it's, it's taught to deal with many issues besides women and children. The current program is called AFDC. So, sometimes I ended up using the two interchangeably, but it was ABC, first pass tonight. The third column tonight is AFDC. There are different today to dependent children, and the other is eight families. Talk about what that means. In terms of legislation, the ABC provided no money at all, for the caretakers of dependent children support this with children if you took care of work without the law provided aid only to children in homes and private parental support. Because of that. Absence through desertion, divorce or confinement was an improvement in an institution, physical or mental incapacity of a parent. In practice, that meant the children were not aided as long as their fathers were living at home. So that was the first written into the legislation requirements that define what was going to happen to any families, or at least what they were going to have to claim if they were to receive the support. Okay, this remains the case for 15 years until it changed in 1950. The ABC legislation provided less aid to states than the matching grants provided for those other two categories, people declined in the agent. Children were women and children were invidiously placed even within the category of the poor. And that's still true today, you need only think about Ronald Reagan's promise not to cut a wedge, you know, and Social Security and disability all while making very sweeping cuts in Social Security legislation of which ABC was apart, excluding all domestic workers from coverage, as well as hospital workers. This is the legislation that was part of this bundle of social security legislation. These particular categories and others in which black women either we're Nan are now heavily represented, were excluded. Up until today, these women are not included in federal minimum wage coverage, and in fact, if not in law are rarely included in Social Security retirement. In the 1930s, when this legislation was passed, domestics included many more white women, the next category does today. But even then legislators could not have been aware of the race and class bias to the exclusion. But what happens if there was more

Unknown Speaker  07:56
stration as

Unknown Speaker  07:57
well, in the legislation of taking into account wherever what happened in the administration was that first of all, it generally was administered on a state level and got back all the devices of various states. In general, though, casework intervention by social workers, who at that period of time were both anxious to demonstrate their professionalism. And their recent conversion, the psychiatric theory was often made a part of ABC such intervention was never assigned to say unemployment insurance. Sign up aren't you don't have to see you know, a psychiatrist or a social worker or whatever. Or other categories people's main problem was a lack of character and morality. Rules from previous state legislation were transferred to the new federal program, although the federal law made no statement about fitness. Because of the restrictions including refusals to support people who are divorced or abandoned women. 61% of the mothers who were first getting aid under the agency program, were widows, and almost all of them were white. What kinds of inclusions and exclusions to that formed? By the end of the 1970s, only 5% of afbc cases involve widows. And although the absolute number of whites remains higher, the proportion of blacks has increased dramatically, as we all know. The figures are 79 and they say about 46%. Only after the board did ABC, did ABC case change greatly. This was a period of change in general we will come up to the labor force in great numbers were laid off when the war ended. Large numbers of black women moved more from where soldiers returned there was an increase in marriages. First one you all know about. Some of you also had a rise in divorces at that time. During this period, the ABC really began to be used, and with its growth in terms of an ABC population came a crackdown in this administration. Another quote from Lucy common Carr's book, more than half the states responded by using, quote suitable home rules to deny aid to black and unwed mothers. to women, his behavior did not coincide with community, mores. And women, for example, might have to sign an affidavit and I thought this one was worth reading. You imagine having to sign this, I do hereby promise and agree until such time as the following agreement is rescinded. I will not have any male callers coming to my home, nor meeting me elsewhere under improper conditions. I also agreed to raise my children to the best of my ability and will not knowingly contribute or be a contributing factor to their being shamed by my conduct. This is the future I understand that should I violate this agreement, the children will be taken from this this was a particular state I didn't want which one it was. Okay, these these are all what happened under ABC up to about the 1960s. The first time the federal government even challenged the state's position, we'll get into that. Commissar points out the idea of moral fitness was a standard applied almost exclusively to some of the examples. ABC and later FTC were administered. Or so we'd laugh at them on hand today, except that they were legally enforced and led to situations like the one in Florida where 70,000 homes with over 30,000 children were declared morally unsuitable. Mothers were asking children to go. Some states not eight families, unwed mothers, other states threatened to prosecute the women who were receiving support, and who then gave birth to children threatened to sue them either for adultery, fornication, or they have children out of wedlock. My own resident ethnographic study in a large more than black community in the late 60s and early 70s showed that many fathers who could not find work and were only able to vote or who were only able to work sporadically, at low pay, nevertheless functioned as husbands and fathers in homes that were listed as female headed to be welfare requirements. Many children who were born during my five years in this community are listed as legitimate because the mother entered the hospital used to Medicaid coverage under the name. Eventually, I'd like to say something about the picture we have with welfare mothers now because I think it's great. Materials only after Louisiana, enacted as soon as the homeboy was to be applied retrospectively, and again would have caught several 1000s of people 10s of 1000s of people,

Unknown Speaker  12:59
many of whom had given back to the federal government becoming,

Unknown Speaker  13:04
even though its original legislation had no requirements, no, nothing about the fitness of the home. During all in the 1950s, the federal government had taken no action, even though the Social Security Act required aid for those in need, and made no stipulation about the children's birth status or their mother's sex lives. Now female relations sexual relations marriage lose control of their own bodies are areas in which contradictions within the system on the right are still relevant to welfare legislation and administration. For

Unknown Speaker  13:37
example, States made no attempt

Unknown Speaker  13:40
to change to make any changes in homes in which they defined as unfit that is, in a real case in whichever going to claim neglect, and all they would normally have taken the children from the home etc. They didn't do that. In these cases, all they gave us kind of on the subject of contraception that were even more contradictory states, for example, condemned out of wedlock births, threatened to cut funding for such children, while at the same time denying information about contraception, let alone contraceptive materials to live in on welfare. And this administrative prohibition on contraceptive information, there's only one end of the spectrum. Some states were of course, actually forcing illegal sterilization operations on who may fail to get too many children who were seen as unfit mothers who sterilization abuse was much more often forced on black women, American Indians and other minorities. But you know if you can imagine the excuses we won't mention, or we won't mention contraception, but we will sterilize rules about substitute fathers for men in the house. Are you going to call it one report phantom fathers ranged from the ridiculous to the sublime. In many cases, it was up to women to prove that a sexual relationship did not have Test. An interesting point. They do give some information how you might prove that you had to get statements from the grocery he should know.

Unknown Speaker  15:13
Welfare rules discriminated against children and forced mothers into positions where they were condemned, condemned. For instance, welfare rules lead to situations, the kinds of situations that were often condemned by sociologist, sociologists and describe the self perpetuating. And in some cases, they were describing a situation enforced by the state welfare mother, her children were prohibited from having a significant relationship with a male under threat of losing support, even though that male was not legally responsible, assuming that he were able for support. This is a quote from a Washington DC welfare agency when it was assigning its social workers to look into the question. It asks it suggested they asked me questions, does he? Does he take the children to the movies? Has he been interested in their education as he helped them other pickup or surplus food at the pub? And if the answer to those were Yes, off you go. The interest describing opera sufficient grounds for removing from welfare such rules were enforced to surprise visit. warrantless searches spying and arbitrary actions at all from after welfare recipients no recourse children on welfare or to have limited contact with mail. At the same period, sociologists decried the lack of male role models in black homes. An assessment of common law marriage was applied to relationships that involve welfare mothers are different from the definition for the wider society. I think that should be suffering. Mothers women were immediately removed from welfare roles when their husbands returned to prison or from the army without regard to whether the man had to do jobs for his wife or children. When the Illinois Director of Public Welfare tried to use state funds to secure the horses for AFDC mother says that after 56 they were at least the mother's Republic Aid Commission denounced the proposal. With the close supporters wondering how we were ever supposed to be able to remarry and have legitimate children under moral conditions. They couldn't get divorced. I skipped some of in less than a decade after much uncertainty court cases administrative foot dragging and opposition for women's rights to abortion and the Medicaid provisions. In this would be outstanding. It's an example of the kind of contradiction I mentioned earlier. Logically, the people who oppose abortion also oppose the growth of welfare populations. But rather than make a logical connection that would allow welfare mothers to choice in these matters. People prefer to close their eyes to sterilization abuse, deny support to the needy and offer in its place condemnation or moral exhortation to act. Immediately after the 73 Supreme Court decision on abortion state efforts began, you know liberally our to prohibit funds to welfare mothers for abortions. A year after the decision, only a fifth of the public hospitals in the country were performing abortions. Recent court decisions in most states no longer include bortion under Medicaid funding, although some make an exception in case. You may think there's been an undue emphasis on husbands and marriage in this discussion of the problems of welfare women, but it is inevitable as long as the system sees women as part of a male headed family unit welfare in fact, we've worked against successful marriage. In a system where welfare provides greater security and the chance to short live live, low paid jobs are available to some men, particularly black men and women have no better job prospects. As long as women are uneducated and untrained left without healthcare was made dependent on men. The system cannot succeed, childcare and training of women to make them self sufficient self sufficient.

Unknown Speaker  19:17
Many welfare programs to federal programs seemed likely to deal with these issues. Some people hear a bit more about getting to what was in the early 60s The federal government passed legislation called AFDC. You already know what that is up unemployed count, which was to eight families where both parents were present in the home and were one claiming unemployed status and that was changed very quickly to AFDC youth that women were excluded from the program you could apply to a current president and therefore eligible. Okay, so that that program Because an optional program sort of dribbled way after having excluded when program work incentive program was 67 required states to

Unknown Speaker  20:15
register appropriate

Unknown Speaker  20:16
welfare recipients for jobs and training. It should be no surprise to most of you that states considered men, not women.

Unknown Speaker  20:25
In Seattle in 1971, a woman who was excluded from the program in favor of males finally fix discrimination charges, and won in court. The wind program very quickly was amended by Senator Talmadge to exclude women since the decision had already been made, but to exclude all of the parts of the program that were useful, the right to education, and training, it then became a program in which people were just put into job slots not. And we'll go into that the program was also optional with the states was never well funded, based on the specious premise about the availability. When the original commitment to education and training was gutted and welfare recipients replaced in non paying paying jobs completed regular employees, the city would lose an employee, by whatever process they would put a welfare person in their welfare person would want to force them have the job in the sense that they would get the person with less cash. But then we can continue to get into welfare while doing the job for which someone had been saying that he paid at whatever rates to prevail. When they started to place, welfare recipients and non paying jobs without training, by the way, without education without making them ready for or, you know, improving the chances of going into another stuck position, they just kind of said, this is your punishment for being on welfare go out eight hours. Then unions and others began to oppose the program because they saw it fairly obviously.

Unknown Speaker  22:08
Of course, the recipients were not being given equal February for section that I have slighted in this paper and I talked to.

Unknown Speaker  22:25
The best of welfare legislation in the past 20 years only promises support to women and children. And when there's pressure on women to see themselves in those terms, and to be wives and mothers, then then women have a pressure on them to see themselves in those terms of being wives and mothers. Because of the image of the poor conveyed by the media, what's the world's most recent patch of the Bronx? A watcher and a listener reader, you can think of many examples on your own, okay, politicians, racist, small times academic, we look for and find all kinds of sophisticated blending of explanations that are found in usually an individual CAFO that are then popularized by the press, the poor are constantly reminded that their moral and psychological exclusion, as well as their geographic education and employment excluded from mainstream society. This makes for a fantastic psychological burden. Women on welfare, who are survivors, I believe, are strong and deep, but at a cost they shouldn't have to pay. The poor always had a stigma attached to them. I suspect that participants in this workshop can feel somewhere down inside the negative feelings that we were all taught to feel for the poor for those on welfare for those getting released. During the early days with the Roosevelt administration, the millions of people who had all these works, were unemployed, and the President was emphasizing the supposedly changed character of those in poverty. Many people even then reported going for weeks and months with little or no food, before they could bring themselves to apply for a major such negative feelings toward those not trained or employed in America need not be angry or hostile feelings, they sometimes involve a lot of sympathy. Nevertheless, they often conceal however, stalking feelings of superiority or superior competence, to smug belief that if it were me, I would have done better and must be wrong with that person. Walk in any welfare office. And the very walls are permeated the unspoken feelings of superiority only when the Welfare Rights Organization was reluctantly active in the civil rights movement when it was at its peak. Why remember a different feeling that the welfare officers commissar report? That one? Okay, everyone, I need to actually combine welfare with work off of domestic work and hustling just in order to get all the women in Max supermind work welfare and hustling are breaking the law, by definition of breaking the law. They know they are subject to prosecution, loss of aid, possibly jail, and most importantly, loss of their children. This kind of conflict and pressure is inevitable, as long as welfare is meant to keep people from starvation, and for him to bettering their position while condemns them to being where they are. We, when we first started, we've sort of introduced ourselves some someone who perhaps have some comments mate might kind of tell us sort of where you're coming from who you are, get to know each other, as well as talks about the topic. As I said, that was rather historical, I didn't get into a lot of material about welfare that I have in my

Unknown Speaker  25:55
book. But at first, I was going to change the paper after I heard the

Unknown Speaker  26:02
session. But I came to the conclusion that it is relevant to make the point that there are at least two problems we've got to deal with. And I'm afraid to deal with them simultaneously. And if you're talking about having a lot of work to do, the more one is that those short term changes that have to be made. And the other is educating ourselves and educating others who are active into seeing it not as an issue that can be solved by itself, that it's that it's an integrated part of the system, that it's been around for hundreds of years, that welfare is not just something, you know, the US is the welfare state is not is not truly a good image. I've said

Unknown Speaker  26:48
your turn. I have really enjoyed interested. One thing, I wonder if you could speak about the relationship of welfare to homeless, which is the subject I'm interested in. One of the things about welfare is you cannot receive welfare unless you have an address. And it's a catch 22 If you have no address, and you can't get any support at all. And with a vacancy rate of 1% in New York City, which means there are virtually no apartment buildings, particularly any low income environments,

Unknown Speaker  27:26
more people are buying

Unknown Speaker  27:30
incredibly rapidly rising rate of homelessness in New York City. The other thing is that welfare pays for SRO, hotels. enormous room so that landlords are supported by the welfare welfare system, in all kinds of ways. And Thursday, a woman with children cannot get into the women's shelter, the municipal shelter for women, women with children, you may have to put their children in foster care if you have no children who can enter the shelter and within the shelter. If you have children, you have to give them up in order to receive shelter. So yes, your third

Unknown Speaker  28:17
point I didn't know about first two I do. And I was going to ask you what do you find in your study that people without addresses do?

Unknown Speaker  28:26
Yeah, there are several things there are a lot of people who get a friend to let them use their address in the end so that they have a phony trips, they're really living nowhere they're really living on the street, but they are receiving a welfare check that includes rent. And and if you can tell me if I'm correct, for a single individual, I think you get $150 for its rent and a $90 to live in New York, yes. Is it 42? And I think again, there is what

Unknown Speaker  29:09
the rendering is each additional child we get

Unknown Speaker  29:21
so that people say people have children

Unknown Speaker  29:30
so there are a lot of people who are getting phony addresses and really just living nowhere because they have no other choice. And when that's found out when that's discovered is it often is what they do instead of finding a place for that person. And then you know, just giving them the portion.

Unknown Speaker  29:51
Welfare has a lot of built in catch 20 twos. That is one of them. And I think that that this has led to people manipulating the system, you have to manipulate the system. It's not a good system, it doesn't work, you must manipulate it. And then you of course, are described as welfare cheat later. But yes, that's that's the impacts and there were some number of people who I was aware of personally who've had that problem and it's been floated, they live cattitude Whenever fit

Unknown Speaker  30:25
3000 6000 6000 And a lot of them are different on that situation for the landlord, you're really mad shape, you have to get up

Unknown Speaker  30:57
and you go on your own time, very high, the Welcome Center, they have a lot of buildings, which is supposed to be violation, so that they can move into the building code violations, and then they give you a list of the buildings that are approved by them. And many times more than one time. And also, durations I did was change

Unknown Speaker  31:36
about two part of

Unknown Speaker  31:38
women who had not paid the rent one month for whatever reason would get checks from the landlord to sell the land or

Unknown Speaker  31:51
land was guaranteed

Unknown Speaker  31:57
I didn't have to meet any standards they're all executives and you can find a cheaper apartment. But one Welcome. Welcome rent, free whatever. You can never find a cheaper apartment we will

Unknown Speaker  32:21
subsidize a lot of the population.

Unknown Speaker  32:23
For those people who actually but of course, the figures that you

Unknown Speaker  32:32
get, you know, that show what how much welfare goes to any given individual include that landlords friends? Yeah, that's your money. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  32:42
I'd like to just use cases. When I heard that some college, to college, I'm a Hunter College. To the 19. Very proud glory days. I've done graduate work at Cornell University, mindfulness that represents 19 and a half years of education. I have more than 14 years of solid work. And I am now if that makes sense. Did you not? Please You know, so I want you to know this admit it. People who are on welfare want to say, I brought my resume as I have no constantly. Anyone can use someone with a solid work history and this kind of education. I can do Personnel Administration on the vocational counselor, by all means, please, I am looking for work. That's point number one. I want to make I want to destroy the myth. You know, I don't appreciate this. However, I do want to just if I can just give you just a capsule because I can't be more on what you have said. But as a single divorcing, without children. Getting on welfare was almost incredible. On the one hand, I had looked for work. Well if you have no funds, how can you look to work? So I kept saying but I have no fun. They said you have no funds, you are eligible for food stamps. Now. Can you give a subway clerk a food stamp? So yes, I suddenly discovered that they were age women in building food stamps. And so for a little exchange at school watering I got caught there if you understand what I mean. I have to get around in something. Now. In order how did I finally get well, I can't get into this. I got to the impression that someone wanted me to be sad, you know, I used to be tall and slim, you know, but anyway. I'm fine. Finally get on well, it's incredible and you have to practically invent a child wandering around I caught bronchitis. So with bronchitis, I ended up in the hospital, you work on the social work again discovered, you mean you have no money to pay for hospitals, I decided that I would go to welfare benefits. And even then I would refer to a welfare center that continued to give me food stamps, which I learned how to. But the point is, I was beginning to become ill again, you know, if you're moving about in your eating irregularly, so I went to the Sydenham Health Center, we have the doctors began to use the medication. But medication without nutrition, you can't even take your medicine if you have nothing in the stomach. So I was losing weight. So finally, the social worker said, what's up, I said, I'm not able to walk you and I got on when I got the welfare benefits, because the caseworker went with me, sat beside me and said, this woman is entitled, and this was the way I got. And by the way, I want you to know that because of the stigma, against being on welfare, you don't go to Hunter College, to be on welfare. You don't do graduate work at Cornell University, I used up all of my own savings. And before I even considered it, and it was my oldest brother, who had already loaned me $1,000. It was getting a little, you know, he was running out of money. Look at it this way. You've been working, haven't you been getting taxes and paying to go back and get your money? Now, when you get

Unknown Speaker  36:40
like that, you know, I went off, you know, raising. But here's, here's the most important thing. Now that I, you know, and getting benefits, yes, they do the two party check. And I claim, I have to say thank God, because otherwise I'd be inclined to use but at least it keeps a roof over my head. However, I'm staying at a place where I'm the one who won with the two party check I get in $76 for every two weeks, but my rent is at five. Now I am always then behind. However, that's alright, we'll make it or what can I get out? This is what I get. But the point that I'm trying to say is, and I do want to bring this to your attention. yesterday in yesterday's time, it says Reagan proposes to seek a databank just a moment on 25 million welfare recipients of which you have someone with my education. And that is it doesn't make sense to me. But here's the point. The point is of this welfare Data Bank is to cut fraud. Now, I would be happy to stand up in a court case and say, Wait a minute, I'm not trying to cheat anyone. I prepared myself, the myth of the Americans go to school, upward mobility, blah, blah. And if you ask what happened, budget cuts, budget cuts on civil service, which is supposed to give you a job for life. And that you mean, well, when they cut the budget, and you have any economy that cannot afford to take people off and there are no jobs, then what happens?

Unknown Speaker  38:20
think one of the points I tried to make earlier and I didn't emphasize it enough was my say that welfare grew along with capitalism, it grew along with the assumption that there were going to be people that capitalism assumes that it has a large block of unemployed people, because there are those people then

Unknown Speaker  38:43
as Kevin and flowered say, eventually,

Unknown Speaker  38:47
on occasion, those people become upset. And that's when welfare moves in. And it moves in every instrument of social control. Yes, I

Unknown Speaker  38:58
seem to be suggesting that first of all, their labor interesting roughly the same way to buy cheap labor and also that the purpose of welfare is much the same as the purpose of prison and the attitude.

Unknown Speaker  39:31
Right. What was master everybody else's, we all see, but what is the purpose of welfare is only as a welfare institution is to provide support to organizations in the society. There's a terrific article by Charles Carroll controversy by localizations and he talks about human services we can As different organizations as as resources from other organizations

Unknown Speaker  40:08
today rather than spending cycle is that sense that those your thoughts your has to do with the level we have a system of liberal democratic capitalism, which is realistic and says that we should look at the world as visuals

Unknown Speaker  40:34
of organizations. And so the ideology that we're supposed to be understanding ourselves as opposed to the situation, which is why why welfare is so mystified?

Unknown Speaker  40:44
Well, it's just I am insurance said this morning, I think it's also there to provide the stereotypes for people to accept themselves and for people outside of that population, to see the welfare population as because obviously, they don't want that population to grow, they also don't want that population to be active, they don't want that population to Yes, you know, to fight against their place in society. And the thing that's important, I think, to remember is that you can make changes, you know, here or there, I mean, you can say this is an unreasonable rule. And you know, somebody, somebody who I think was one of those states director of welfare was able to get them to increase welfare slightly by showing the cost more to bury people want to raise their brands. That's that's desperation measure, but it doesn't change anything. Basic. Welfare is still a catch all for people that the system can't employ, won't employ is not committed to it, or only wants to employ at certain times, the same way that women were, you know, I'm born with women, and we should be in the homes, women who should be with their children and all of that, folks, were, of course, brought out of their homes during the Second World War that you I think there's someone say, passing around the leaflet for Rosie the Riveter, if you haven't seen it, you should see it standards the art and culture what it is, is a description of the women who work Hi, I just started. And then at six 7pm, and eight, a COVID discussion,

Unknown Speaker  42:55
I can bring my children tonight, and it's $4

Unknown Speaker  43:01
to just sort of what is happening in Rosie the Riveter and what happens with welfare generally, is that it is set up to make those changes in the working population, in this case, women, for when society wants them, like during the Second World War when the crops are in the field. And quite literally, welfare has done that, and still does that. They tighten up the rules, they tighten up all of that they can get thrown off welfare. So to go out and work, you know. And it's not just the South, I grew up in the north and I had this very bad image. And then I was really surprised to find out that Long Island and New Jersey, and a lot of others do exactly the same thing where they need agricultural laborers. So that I feel strongly that we have to be convinced ourselves at the idea that we've got to change a lot more than welfare. When the question is you're making the comment you'd be making the thing about housing, the fact that there isn't housing, the fact that there aren't jobs, not that people don't want to work. And of course, the training has something to do with all that. But the fact that these things literally don't mean that welfare, the economy is fine, you know, welfare can only be a kind of temporary and manipulative on the part of the government system. For for for maintaining the situation as it is, and we've got to fight that.

Unknown Speaker  44:36
I just wanted to point out something happening on the state legislative front and from Connecticut. And you have a technique of sidetrack on existing solutions. First of all the abortion denial of abortion to people on Medicaid.

Unknown Speaker  44:59
They finally passed.

Unknown Speaker  45:05
And abortion permission for abortion on Medicaid largely as a result of the argument that is much more costly. Much less costly to pay for devotion to pay for the kid after you arrive

Unknown Speaker  45:30
to work pay act by which the town's mandated to take people off, or their husbands through work. And with race or way that sounds or come back screaming now there are no jobs.

Unknown Speaker  45:56
So that you have this vicious circle constantly as a result of certain kinds of pressure. The legislation is passed. And there were no solutions all just affect the citizens not only in welcoming, though, we know the same thing back. In the school situation with the Boston whites, way the best interviews were done that integration doesn't work give up on the white folks, the best thing to do is to get the best time you can in your neighborhoods. Meanwhile, the funds for school are being tracked all along the line, practically. And this goes on and on and on. For the work, you're really looking for me effect of activity means absolutely nothing. And again,

Unknown Speaker  47:01
it's a high point. Like, I kind of went through a period after my mom died, where I literally didn't have pricing, which is why but anyway, I was going with this and so on. So finally someone said, Well, you know, there were women shop? Well, I discovered there are no women shelters that do not why one was. In fact,

Unknown Speaker  47:31
I couldn't believe the violations.

Unknown Speaker  47:32
And as I told a friend, I escaped, you know, I had told her I shouldn't say she said I thought you said I said I I got up at six o'clock in the morning, packed my bag saying goodbye to a premeditated cut out. I mean, the price was incredible. But here's the point. When I began supplying, there are no hope there are no shelters for single homeless. I was sent because someone had compassion for me, I was sent to a home for pregnant women. And you know

Unknown Speaker  48:09
I mean, which I don't mind, but this was my home, which will lights out didn't occur till 12. So you see here, you know, when I wanted to sleep, the children were running up and down the stairs. Now, every single one of us want to do a little bit. But then on the other hand, because another caseworker had compassion, she sent me to a home for alcohol. Then I found myself I was going from you know, because I can only say well, unquote, you know, for X number of days because technically I didn't do the more you save so that I could get passed on to a home. I was in a home for women who are a halfway house so we're in a prison. I had a very exciting however, there is a crying need for the homeless woman in the older woman who gets evicted. The younger woman comes you know, to and can't find a place you know, this kind of thing doesn't absolutely, absolutely

Unknown Speaker  49:12
get on welfare and see the

Unknown Speaker  49:15
other side of it in a very, you know, excruciating.

Unknown Speaker  49:19
I have a question. I'd like to know how many of you how many of your parents have ever how many have you ever been in a welfare office? As Yes, I was thinking strictly at the children welfare. Okay, I think that something about who we're talking to,

Unknown Speaker  49:52
and what we're talking about. Yeah, I just wanted to sort of add

Unknown Speaker  49:57
to your really

Unknown Speaker  50:00
Because I think most of us, because right now, and we tend to think of people and validated studies, rather than one that is constantly changing and shifting and expanding at a tremendous rate. And I think that's really important, what you have said, is every one of us, and is not just those people over there, when configure exactly they are right or maybe very uneducated. But if one realizes that within the next 10 years, it will probably hit, if not us immediately, at least several of our immediate then I would see in a very different light, to having been unemployed myself, for a really long time. And there are a number of

Unknown Speaker  51:10
state studies by which show that the average period of time

Unknown Speaker  51:13
on welfare somewhere down around

Unknown Speaker  51:15
two to three years,

Unknown Speaker  51:15
I don't know if you know that I am sure the image is projected this morning. But the average stay on welfare is about two or three minutes. I see three hands, you haven't spoken, I think it's important to keep in mind,

Unknown Speaker  51:37
of course, something that has been said, welfare, unemployment, other systems, quote, support are really part of a whole system of how labor is contracted. And that

Unknown Speaker  51:53
the contradictions that emerge from women who are on welfare, on the one hand, whose work their welfare will become useful to do that to get low, cheap, labor low, we pay cheap labor out in the market to threaten other kinds of jobs to use, when it's not so bad, or criminal allowed back into the welfare system, unemployment has been skyrocketing. So it used to be accepted that 3% unemployment and unemployment rate is 8%. And it goes up to 12. And the legitimate unemployment, that's not the total unemployment rate, which is closer to 45%. And if you look at numbers of people who are employed in

Unknown Speaker  52:36
government jobs,

Unknown Speaker  52:38
if you take number of people who either get their basic income through government funding sources, that is state employment, as well as unemployment and all the other systems, you get over half of the entire American population. And it's important to understand that these are different ways to try and appease people to try and make sure we get some money into their pockets

Unknown Speaker  53:01
to pay for the rent. Or we can pay

Unknown Speaker  53:04
for physicians who have control over the healthcare system, who can pay for those parts of the system. But I also want to add it with their to your short. One is I think that Sharon, comments today about isolation, credibly effective methods for making other people feel like they are different, they are safe. And if they're not safe, and they might have to go on welfare, it's something they wouldn't do. It's that I won't do it unless it's absolutely necessary.

Unknown Speaker  53:37
And it makes you feel different. It keeps you as separate. And the other thing is the name of which escapes me programming. Maybe somebody knows it's black and white working class, we're gonna get Charles, James James. And James Janie

Unknown Speaker  53:52
is a film about white working class. Mother is excellent. It's about a woman goes to the kitchen has been out after she's treating her food. She has five children. And she goes on welfare. And she's a loud, tough lady. And welfare wants to shut her up. She goes to the phone company, they want to cover up because she hasn't paid his phone bill, or the electric bill, which is somebody else's meter talkers. And she makes a lot of trouble. And what she realized was in the film, she says, I'm being paid to bring my kids up for that labor. And in fact, that is what you're either paying greenhouse kids or nine laborers. That is unemployment. I think it's important to sort of see some of this as it's not just different sectors, but they're all very interconnected. Like continuity happens,

Unknown Speaker  54:51
and I'll get

Unknown Speaker  54:54
complicated and then also a little bit of a red book, functional flavor. And welcome labor and also sort of follow up on what you're saying. Now, it seems to me, UK really suggest that

Unknown Speaker  55:08
welfare functions as a system of control ideologically and politically, aside from channeling you know, cheap labor, that it seems to me the imagery that's projected around people on welfare is about

Unknown Speaker  55:25
this to adapt to the point this morning, dangerous women, and that it is very much about isolating women from other women. I mean, I, I guess it's a man, I can't say what it is, what the image of welfare is, for men, I just think what it is in terms of that there are some women in this country whose children should be taken away from I mean, motherhood is this ideology, the sacred ideology, and yet it says for certain kinds of women, they're taken from them, or women who live in families that are outside of a private petrol control, negotiate different systems of arrangements with men and other women, that that's pretty powerful that part of the function of purchasing is not just economic, but political and ideological, in terms of really ensuring that women will see themselves in terms of the moral imagery of moral women who are there, the right kind of mothers with the right kind of sexuality, workers, and also forms of lesbian, also towards women with, quote, illegitimate children. It seems to me that this may be a crucial issue in the next couple of years to really, you know, have people think, as Reagan says, there's some conservative and non conservative for this whole talk. The whole sexual thing again, you know, it's it's sexuality must be a certain confines of the family. You know, old, old stuff. And I would, I would add, just as a footnote to that, but by the way, the phrase of me, truly, as far as I know, relatively new, but the concept

Unknown Speaker  57:11
of deserving and undeserving poor has been with the system for hundreds of years doing interviews, and receiving this incredible face to face interviews, this is one of them coming to you. And she says how you, they don't know how to program and you're always someone, and so that every month where she lives, is any eviction notices, or as soon as today, dollars every month, so every month you're scheduling hearing, and say why she is late, and sometimes she has to pay every month. It's incredible. Oh, wait, except it's such that it sets the

Unknown Speaker  57:59
time constraints,

Unknown Speaker  58:01
the the the, you know, you know, women's, many women who are on welfare could be doing a lot of other things. Except that welfare is a task in itself, it's an important point to make. Wondering what NCC are now ravens is going to come back on and support this whole process situations where they have to marry, or they have to attach themselves in some way.

Unknown Speaker  58:52
In Mississippi, they cuddle up women had children who were illegitimate, and the birth rate increased. And, you know, surprisingly enough that women who were cut off had to get support somewhere and one of the places that they got support were from males. And you know, so they were shocked. Yesterday,

Unknown Speaker  59:19
I wanted to make two points. One is talking about animal welfare. I mean, the crucial issue is two things. Number one has this welfare before the mental health and my skin has been working when we can talk about it as one of the Great Depression, and what it has been called psychosomatic complaints and young women 27 fatigue, and they're nervous and everything is an effort and we can climb stairs and dress for it. From the diet, they create a lot of psychological problems. And then that is reflected also in the whole family life and children and the welfare system in order for them to be, you know, good models. I mean, the only reason you know they're beginning with NBC is that they're the ones who stay at home with their mothers. But many of them, you know, just have some of the finances in foster care. They're gonna manage a quiz that collects data on children in foster care. And one of the questions that they asked is, What was the reason for placing the child care agencies and the biggest proportion 1% Because the Mother mother can cope with the death of the children, because both problems surviving, as well.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:17
Why there are times when I think psychological damage that welfare does is even greater than the lack of adequate payments, because you are constantly bombarded with the image that you are incompetent anymore. And, therefore, right and the whole imagery is, is a very negative one on the person as an individual, and the programs that might have done something about this headache, has it been? Well, habited real, for example, the idea of daycare, those

Unknown Speaker  1:01:57
occasionally get a foothold, and then they are pushed right out again, because that would make

Unknown Speaker  1:02:01
a real change in the in the positions of these, this would then give, you know, some kind of training somebody to get out that they've never gotten past the first step.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:16
But I really think it's important for us to understand that even when you talk about training and education, one of the biggest myths has been the reason that women don't do well in general, of course, is because they don't have it, right. It's like as soon as they don't have, they don't want to be engineers. They don't want to do the things that men theoretically want to do. Well, very few men are engineers. But it's

Unknown Speaker  1:02:41
women's attitudes, women's lack of

Unknown Speaker  1:02:43
education. So they say what we need to do is give women more education. And then if it's such a

Unknown Speaker  1:02:49
blaming victim

Unknown Speaker  1:02:50
approach, and and of course, it's done with blacks as well, if they are where they are, if they don't have education, they know it's done with

Unknown Speaker  1:02:58
whites, and Appalachian is done with all our thoughts. And it's important to keep that in mind when you need that's the time. People need that training and education. But at the same time, unless it's given in a way that the judge

Unknown Speaker  1:03:22
is dealing with the fact that obviously the society is not geared to attend there's no commitment to full employment for anybody despite what's Humphrey Hawkins Gilmore split, this country is officially committed to employment that's in New York State has been for decades as well. And it's just a question of full employment.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:48
And one of the interesting statistics,

Unknown Speaker  1:03:51
almost reports of all women are important full time jobs in the United States. However, less than or equal percent, which means that most women are not in jobs that provide them with security with continuity in the labor market, which stability and it was structured into the kinds of jobs that women have, which I think on the one hand, keeps women as this reserve pool of labor who can be kicked out of jobs or cut back in the number of hours and he's been primary responsibility to the families are increasingly important. European privacy,

Unknown Speaker  1:04:49
high quality and I think it's coming as justification for

Unknown Speaker  1:04:58
coming out in 30

Unknown Speaker  1:04:59
days. and media, or that kind of that kind of description of journalism. You know, somebody comes on planes they were in the supermarket and the kinds of studies that show how much money a group is getting demolished. Now, like any field that was talking about I'm not really

Unknown Speaker  1:05:43
I would like to talk about stuff. I was involved with rocker rights only to the extent that the women who were in the community I was studying more involved in welfare writing, I was, you know, I'm not, I wasn't involved in it as a leader or anything else. And that's the idea behind the welfare right out of the flower. And I personally think that it was a mistake, because and I have lots of good things to say about what, but but the reason I think that was a mistake is that after they did their analysis of the system, their only solution was, like overload the system. They didn't then go on to say, what's going to happen when you overload the system, and how exactly to make for change. And so the Welfare Rights Organization, determined to do within, by the way, all legal guidelines of welfare and all what they did, welfare has never reached, all the people who are out. It's written now as it's written, now, I mean, you know, without it's being liberalized, or anything else there has never been, was never intended to reach, no one believed it would ever try to reach everyone who was eligible for. So what's the what now did was to widen the pool of people who were aware of what their rights were within that system, and to push them to go and claim what didn't happen. And I hope it's not just hindsight, I think it should have been clearer.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:15
At the point they were proposing it.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:17
The system, of course, is a legislative system. It's operated by and you know, written into law by the very people that have the power.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:27
So when it began to be overloaded from their point of view,

Unknown Speaker  1:07:31
all my customers. And I found in the community that I work in that now it was a very vibrant organization, obviously, a very small proportion of people who were eligible to be in now or you know, who were on welfare were in it. But that's true of any social. One can take the numbers and make brickfields differences that people that I knew were on welfare, and we're not in now, where, in many ways educated to what their rights were, became much more forceful, began to have a different have much stronger psychological view of themselves and how they were going to act in a situation all that and I think that was a tremendously important change. But But I'm afraid that that it wasn't a very forward looking program. Their political analysis stopped very short, they just said overload. Let me just kind of sweep around the table.

Unknown Speaker  1:08:41
All right. I just want to I think it's instructive to compare what with what happens to women on wooden, little white widow mentioned earlier, the acceptability of what we'll do woman whose husband has received Social Security regularly every month. If he has had a decrease in income, depends on the amount of it, there is no stigma attached. Each one for children received survivor's insurance up to the age of 18. And that he goes to college right through the age of 20. And I think that even the same social security benefits are no stigma attached, as no investigation of deserving training and so forth. And this, I think, to me should be an objective as a as a standard half was long in which it's an already existing system and crystals.

Unknown Speaker  1:10:02
That is something that one could point to and

Unknown Speaker  1:10:05
say this is what we want with here, because there's some effort now, by the station to pack down I think the young age of 18 going to be provided benefits and so forth. But that again is a divide and rules situation in which the so called Living for everything they have received the benefit. Another thing you can receive, you can work up to $7,500 to hear today and still we seek your full social security on survive on

Unknown Speaker  1:10:45
this distinction between those categories and the AFDC category, deserving and the undeserving poor. Yep, someone may come in. Right, I

Unknown Speaker  1:11:21
don't mean to I don't mean to

Unknown Speaker  1:11:24
oppose one to the

Unknown Speaker  1:11:25
other. Because I think that that is what the system does, right? As it makes that invidious comparison between so that it's true that they are also people that are going to be I agree. We would just kind of sweep around in the back.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:07
Well, I'm sitting here, sort of thinking that we know that welfare, the aim, the aim of welfare is to keep as many people as possible. That's the aim of welfare and consensual fly their searches how they disqualify you, even if you are deserving. Or which you, you know, can't find the right paper for you do not, you're not able to get it in SSI. And the other thing is that when there's a range in something like the SSI payments as there was approximately six months ago, this year, when they increase the benefits for SSI payments, there was an automatic increase in rent for SRO, hotels, where a lot of people are living internationally at the same time, and in Florida, where my parents happen to live in a lot of people live as rents are going up everywhere, based on the amount of those came into experience. So what my question is, what, where do we work? What can we do? Do we work for increasing payments? To get more people on whether we are deserving or what have you? That's what I'm sitting here wondering how's it put our energy? Okay, let's let's say that I

Unknown Speaker  1:13:41
think that is the question that we do need to talk about most I'd like to get the other questions and then come back

Unknown Speaker  1:13:55
was wanting to be out in the state of New Jersey that may be New York State to take it off. So security bills to recommend rented and two full times to a mother still lives in New Jersey and I'm going to put on the Social Security office two months ago, until maybe it was discontinued. My Benefits are still with me at age 21 with a question my ability to go to Columbia versus paying $10,000 They asked me How am I doing? Okay, so that's it. That means other security benefits, right? What is my daughter? She's still have parents I still have. I have rose astronomically. I take up education coming through so security benefits many years eight and taking 10 years. I see my mother didn't have to sit down at night and take out papers that we existed in that hour we paid $300 But they didn't believe it in North Dallas and getting people to verify that it became your house. One of them is also secured how just for yourself because I have no idea about worse than a job security wise coming closer to being watched because okay can you enable us to be a good mother take care have fun what it's supposed to do we're still in college I'm not kidding why are they sending me benefits Social Security is not as easy taking any questions any bills or scholarships depending on the situation did you kind of keep them brief so that we discussed

Unknown Speaker  1:16:42
the short term goals or what is to be done there there are civilizations appearing on New York the normal nobody? Your point it seems to me so very interested in how the situation the people are targeting are interchangeable. Money people who have a lot to say about poverty

Unknown Speaker  1:17:51
and sexuality and somehow try to continue to fight for sexuality is seen as legitimate.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:01
I said only in my paper that he grew up in capitalism and Protestantism. I think a large part of that mentioned. Yeah, yeah, no. Well, okay. I think that the capitalism and the racism developed along with the welfare, the patriarchy preceded it. But yes, I agree. But I think it's remarkable how to distribute ideology. Be adapted, adapted to any religion. And Hinduism is just as easily adaptable.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:44
It's constantly being used.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:52
Yeah, I want to make a comment about that short term relief, and that for the average thing, about two or three years of manipulators in many ways, and what happens is that cases, you know, all the time, a woman who replicates look like before I sign suppose breaking rules, you know, from not showing up to face to face hearings. And each time her case is closed and reopened, treated as a new case, statistics show that the average is two to three years, but I'm sure in your experience in the community and my experience in the Puerto Rican community, this women have been on welfare for like 10 years, you know, five years. And there's a great percentage of second generation when we get them on welfare, and we're now we will see creation of families of women. Many grandmother's you know, we're in the 40s and they already have their kids or 30. Children as soon as they open their case, their welfare case. So yeah, you know, I see them Well, there's actually a permanent stage becoming a permanent, short term.

Unknown Speaker  1:20:06
I disagree with you on that. But I think it's it's quite stark. What I think you do see in that situation is the lack of integration of Puerto Rican workforce into the bad scene. And I at least read some other figures about, about Puerto Rico. And the kinds of work they were able to do in the 50s. In the 60s and 70s, new changes. Homework that important. changed, and now they're part of Google, for now, along with the general change into society, working as well as having to work males in the government workers situation. But let's let's talk about that later. I'm much

Unknown Speaker  1:21:12
less worried about the time whether it's two or 10 years. I'm much less worried about that, and much more worried about the fact that I,

Unknown Speaker  1:21:24
you know, since I don't see it as a problem as

Unknown Speaker  1:21:25
the fault of the people who for receiving the welfare,

Unknown Speaker  1:21:30
I see it as a problem of society in

Unknown Speaker  1:21:32
which things are getting worse for someone behind you, and then you're the last. No,

Unknown Speaker  1:21:41
I just want to point to something ironic about the welfare system. When I was working, I was covered under Blue Force and Blue Shield, which paid a percentage of my medical bills, and I had to pay the other person, a percentage 1/3 of the dental bill, and I had to pay two thirds of the debt. And I need bridge, but I have to pay two thirds, I went to the dentist, and I said, How much will my bridge work? And he said, the total pool is $900. So with, right, this is a private dentist whom I you know, admired, and you know, paying to, you know, respect. So 1/3 paid for plan is, let's say 300. And my cost was six. I'm the Medicaid, since I have all of the bridges work is being paid $3,500 worth of bridge work as a welfare. So all they're all one or two, not very many. But when you for you. Pretty good now. But I mean, that's ironic. That is ironic. And I will tell you something else, somebody who has food stamps, can literally choose anything they want. So you do have individuals who are collecting food stamps, we'll even call a house, whereas the person was secretary was trying to make ends meet for her vacation. Yeah, oh, can

Unknown Speaker  1:23:10
I think it's really important to understand what I think

Unknown Speaker  1:23:15
people learn how to do this system, because

Unknown Speaker  1:23:18
if they don't learn how to do it, they're not gonna survive, because the system isn't organized for you to survive. So that might be seen as something that becomes a necessity to the system rather than people within the system.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:34
I mean, you gotta remember with food stamps, you have a limited amount of futures Porterhouse. That question, what are we doing? And I think that the brain would you describe the group that is the kind of thing we should be looking for. And working for that is a group that attempts to meet the proximate goals, the immediate problems that people have, you know, somebody's going to be cut off Social Security or something like that, that helps people to

Unknown Speaker  1:24:13
deal with their day to day problems.

Unknown Speaker  1:24:15
But I think it's tremendously important to educate people, especially the people that you're helping to the fact that this is, you know, a situation that you that hopefully you can change for them and given the circumstances at this time, but the next next month, probably may recur next month, there may not be, you know, maybe cut back so that they can

Unknown Speaker  1:24:37
deal with that, and the thing have got to

Unknown Speaker  1:24:39
work with you to educate other people to the fact that the welfare, per se is not a solution. I'm not active in an organization right now. I wish I were, but that I do do a lot of Talking about welfare and people's use of welfare in an area like blacks. And there's something black people say they say they can't constantly was, of course very proud of is that they survive and are able to survive. It's simply one of the most positive things they say about themselves. And I believe that one of their ways of surviving foresees, as I said before, to manipulate what's available. And although one can admire that, and obviously necessary, one of the things that we as black people have to do is to educate these people. They can educate us about manipulate, in fact, they did, I learned I learned about welfare, blacks.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:50
I went into that community thinking that all

Unknown Speaker  1:25:53
nicely about a college education I speak well, I know what social workers do. I know what this says, I can read, you know. And I thought I was ready to do. Right, right. I discovered very quickly, that I didn't know anything. And, and the people that I lived with, taught me about welfare and taught me how to deal with it taught me how to do get as much as

Unknown Speaker  1:26:22
I can out of

Unknown Speaker  1:26:23
it. And I hope that in return, I was able to able to help them to see the situation as something beyond what they

Unknown Speaker  1:26:35
had to do. And I think that's, that's the important part,

Unknown Speaker  1:26:37
we've got to work, among other things, you'd like to work with welfare. I think that's the virtue of Welfare Rights Organization, those were the people who needed the we're working in it. And I went and of course, others from from outsiders attempting to work with. And in that sense, I think we need to be in touch with, we need to know that it interests me, of course,

Unknown Speaker  1:27:00
that in this room today, I think

Unknown Speaker  1:27:03
567. And when I said we've been on record whose parents were that ticket, my hand we left for both of those, Cheryl's was one of the first. Obviously, you know, our current generation of even middle class black folks are not very far removed from from welfare. Interestingly enough, of course, when we were talking about not having many black people at this conference for white people represented until we get into into real work with the communication with the people who are affected by the system. Does anyone else want to comment on one, two, and Cheryl?

Unknown Speaker  1:27:59
I have one comment, which is, I think, because I believe that while the ICA somehow the many of our problems, fake sense profit making and the force behind that organizing International. Talking on the level of organizing your community, on the IOC a bit but it isn't International. It's not one of ours. travel around the world. Look at what's happening. When you are rhyming and those who are hungry what do we do about our kids? about not just International. We've been trying to tie it into housing and all the other You're right. I spent several

Unknown Speaker  1:29:46
years recently living in Papua New Guinea and one of the academics were making there was that for the longest time on the learning system there, women women were left in the village remember After work on plantations, and the men were

Unknown Speaker  1:30:03
paid a wage that had nothing to do with the women in the village

Unknown Speaker  1:30:07
subsistence supported themselves reproduced and, and, you know, made workers to continue to go into plantations.

Unknown Speaker  1:30:15
And I, I agree with

Unknown Speaker  1:30:18
you that, you know, if

Unknown Speaker  1:30:18
you have some experience in other places, you see the same patterns happening again and again. You were in India. I spent some time also in South America. Yes. I think that part, I think that one has to have a perception in your mind that this is an international phenomenon. I don't know how you go about actualizing that except by starting with the community and the state of the nation