Unknown Speaker  00:00
Hello so that always very soon and what I tend to do here is to first like present short articles specific point, which is the image of women, individual social projects. And I plan to go over the whole area to make

Unknown Speaker  00:52
and then ultimately

Unknown Speaker  00:56
that the issue or necessarily

Unknown Speaker  01:00
comments,

Unknown Speaker  01:02
I don't have all the answers at all use first of all, to to understand the literature of social protests written by women in contemporary Latin America, I believe it is important to be aware of the socio economic and political situation of the Latin American countries, and specifically of the role of women in those societies today. It is not my intention, however, to give you an account of women and society in Latin America, but rather to point out some of the specific social problems that are affecting women, which constitute some, if not the majority of the main themes in women's literature or social protests, and what changes if any, are proposed to alter the state of things. The condition of the Latin American countries is one of under development, which means a neocolonial economy that is complementary to the economy of the metropolis.

Unknown Speaker  02:27
Another stereotype now that I'm going to be the stereotypes, a saw we?

Unknown Speaker  02:44
Well, to continue, in our case, because of Latin America, this metropolis was first Spain, of course, and then later on Europe, mainly England, and and after first World War, the United States, a. Also since all the problems of capitalist society seems to multiply in underdeveloped areas, the Latin American countries in general experience even higher degree so exploitation, discrimination and prejudice. Also, even though 65% of the Latin American population still remains in rural areas, there has been a great exodus to the urban centers, reasons such as incipient industrialization, dying rural economy, violence in the countryside. And later on, we have to add to it victor of the drug scene. It's also increasing the state of general violence. And there's just this historical period in Colombia, for instance, that is called the violence which started in 1948. Some historians seem to consider that that period has not really ended it has maybe shifted to other forms of violence, but that still pretty much continues, especially in the countryside. This how to show how these social circumstances affect women in specific ways and even more so than men. I'll give you an example for from the first chapter of the novel LDS sing aloud, which is literally the appointed day by Manuel Mahir by Dr. Singer Lalo, the appointed day by Manuel Mahima Yeah, he's, he's one of the leading writers in Colombia now mitigates a pregnant woman, in the first chapter of a novel gets tortured and raped in the countryside to avenge political feuds. The Women's born womb is cut open and the unborn child is forcibly taken out and they put a rose booster in its place. That description which had to describe this process. Also because of the tremendous unemployment rates in the cities, for instance, to continue with the case of Colombia from Colombia, I seem to know a little bit of a coastal cities in the north have about 60% unemployment rate. And this exodus creates a sort of lump and proletariat. The existence of wage allows for the recruitment among the ranks of women of cheap labor for small factory, domestic servants, menial jobs, and even prostitution. If you want a more detailed account of this situation of women in this be Yes, Miss Arias are specifically this problem that we're dealing with. There is a very good essay, by either Garcia alone, so won an award in Casa de las Americas by Nike in 1968. It's called Manuela mihika and Wella, the Mexican woman, she deals with the everyday struggle of the women in these conditions. Another article that I want to mention, it's kind of the same line is Anna Rooibos, the spread of capitalism in rural Colombia. In the article she focused on the person and lower class, urban women in a region called Puerto Taha, Western Colombia. And for an analysis deals on how the changes of mode of production affect women in this area. And he points out the difficult situation facing Women have to endure under this rapidly modernizing conditions. And I quote from the, from the essay, the ability of women to change their lives for the better, is seriously inhibited as they become increasingly dependent on men, who now exercise a new power over them, by virtue of the availability and nature of work. And of quote, this new power, she asked, arises from a total and fundamental change in the social relations of production from a person mode of production to a capitalist mode. And she also indicates the fact that many of these lower class women tend to become prostitutes because of economic hardship. There was a woman interview. So in this article, and when she was asked, why she went into prostitution, he had an idea of why and then she said, The only reason is that I had to sell my literally, I have to sell my flesh for my children, meaning I sell my body for my children. A is more complex than that. That's the problem, prostitution, but at least this is definitely one of the factors involved.

Unknown Speaker  07:43
All also Michel Mattila in a book called Laquon toda de la precio femenina. The culture of female oppression is also dealing with the incorporation of Latin women into the labor force. She analyzes specifically the case of Chile, where she says and I quote, The immense majority of women do not participate in the economic process. According to the 1970 census, about 19% of women under 12 years and older are working for salary. The percentage of men under the same age bracket is 69%. Besides because of lack of specialized skills, social pressure, family obligations, and general discriminations against women in the labor market, we find that the job areas available to women are those related to or that could be interpreted as an extension, or as her primary duties of why and mothers such as maid servants, washing women. But the law also points out that of the total of women actively working 40% Are of these areas. Another important final factor that I would like to present before we go into the discussion of the novels is the illiteracy problem. Even though real educational opportunities are denied to an incredibly high percentage of both men and women in most Latin American countries, women have an even higher illiteracy rate in comparison with men. The study that Anna Ramos did on this subject around 1966 96 Da, give us this figures that I found very revealing. In the case of Peru for instance, illiteracy rates in the urban areas is 38.9%. The figures of women litters more than double those of men from the overall total of men 25.6% are illiterate. In the case of women, the figures go up to 51.8% and then in the rural areas, the situation gets worse in some rural areas literacy rate among women which is 76.4%. Now, what happens with women from middle upper class. Yeah, the picture does change. But nevertheless, she's still moving about about in Amelia loaded with sexual prejudices and discrimination that does not allow her to break away from women's traditional patterns of behavior. Statistical figures show, for instance, that women registered at universities to pursue a career is mostly women from middle and upper class struction. They do so mostly in the fields of humanities, and education. Also, the number of women in non technical careers is still roughly 50% less than the number of men in the technical careers, the difference is even higher in favor of men. I do not want to bombard you with too many statistical statistics. But if you want them at the end, I will certainly give them to you very gladly. And then what happens to the few women that succeed in getting a degree there is an excellent writer, Mexican women, excellent poet, also, Rosario Castellanos, who, in her essays, writing about the case of the professional Mexican woman in 1970, explains the situation this way, and I quote, it makes no difference to know that there are 2600 Women chemists,

Unknown Speaker  11:28
and 2250 women lawyers, is their efficiency is still doubted. This is so true, she continues that the clients still prefer the male professional to the women professional. And many women architects who want to practice have to join a firm of male architects to be able to get a contract, even if she's the one that at the end, does all the work. That, in short, these social conditions that I very generally described above, are led by the majority of women in Latin America, and they are precisely the central theme of most of the literature of social protest, written protest written by women today. This kind of literature is by no means new in Latin American letters. Many of us I'm sure are familiar with respuesta or Philadelphia, or answer to Sofia to the famous letter by sort of one Ins de la Cruz, where she very energetically justifies an entire life of study and dedication to learning. Also, a, this is the name, the name of the letter respuesta. Sore Philadelphia. This is so Juana Ines de la Cruz, Mexican, non Baroque time Latin America, she's a professor too much about this. Yes. And I will give you a lot of the new things that are coming out. And I could not possibly put into this paper because they'd rather have discussion. This is just to give us something from which to start asking, commanding, disagreeing with all that. A, she, it's very important, and it's very feminist. Especially we consider that she was writing at a time where women were only allowed to be graceful, to know how to Blanche, and to be submissive is there in the words of Carlos Mo's device. They will know Mexican literary critic. And there's another essay that is also very important. It was reading 200 years later 19th century to a kid through this Gomez. They are the Yoneda she was also and she also wrote anti slavery novels. And she put out a big struggle not only in Cuba, but in Spain. And she was denied entrance to the things Real Academia de la Lane was cannula. And her answer to that was an essay that you might not be aware of this piece, but is there a School alum who help the women and it's an defense of the intellectual rights of women? Head through this Gomez. They are the Yoneda, the 19th century Cuban writer she also wrote novel and poetry and these things essay, some of her work is being translated. Also, and there are at least two or three doctoral dissertations on her to the commons. They are in an era. One of them was finished about five years at Stony Brook SUNY, and I'm sure if you are interested, you can Hispanic language department at Stony Brook there are many very valuable studies made to analyze the literature of social protest in Latin America, but there's still a lot to be done especially from the point of view of feminists and Write criticism which constitutes my main concern. Today, the Latin woman in general is writing to denounce the different kinds of oppression that she suffers as a woman, and as a member of a very repressive and sexist society and to propose and sometimes to demand changes. These changes range from the mystification attack to the of the myth of the traditional images of women to a complete transformation of the socialist structures that she feel are oppressed in her. Most of the writings by Latin women about social struggle are written in the narrative form, especially the essay, the novel essay, and nonfictional and fictional testimony. Many women are beginning to prefer a form of literary expression that combines the impact of a testimonial account with the flexibility of imaginary creativity, fictional testimony, and this is the case of Elena Poniatowski. As I stand over the history of meal

Unknown Speaker  16:14
was first published in May he go in 1969. And I believe it's already in the third edition. The setting of this novel is Mexico, Mexico, and the revolution of 1910. The protagonist is a woman Her name is Hazel Sal, who participated in the Mexican upheaval and revolution. There are again many knows that deal with the Mexican Revolution. But not that many were then the writer protagonist is a woman who had a military input into the struggle type of getting aid out was sold that data, so criticize the double standards of life in Mexico at the time, and who also at the end, did not receive her Social Security benefits from the government. Because she was and I quote them novel, she was young, and she was not a man. And also she was not a hero, nor dance the level and who, in the novel gives us a very refreshing version of the woman's life in and out of combat. There's a very good article by Maria Antonietta RAS calm, which is called Women and social struggle. I will I have those articles. And at the end, I will give you a direct bibliography. I don't want to give a date. Which indicates that, and I quote, The incorporation of women into the maximum revolution becomes massive, especially after 1930. It is true, she continues that many pets from women when with their husband to the fighting grounds, because they had no other alternative. And their function was mainly to get the food and do the cooking. But and I'm interesting, but they also carried ammunition, and many became active in combat. The person woman who became a Soledad Ada was fighting to improve her to serve situation, not just to help the husband. And there were also workers, teachers, students and domestic servants that had active participation in the revolution. And the word not just the few that became famous, and that we find sometimes in history books listed as exceptional women of courage. A pistol sudden the protagonist of Poniatowski novel, present a literary image of revolutionary Mexican women, that is in agreement with this new history that is being recovered and brought forth by Latin American as well as by American women historians. More information on this, especially on the literary writings about women's participation in the Latin American War of Independence. There is there's several things but let me just mention a couple. For those of us who can read Spanish articles, Libertarians is a combating by Praxis Guerrero is from Mexico and it was done in 1924. Also, things that are more accessible further from a critical perspective of historical literature. And this is an English Louisa s. Hoberman, a, she wrote an excellent article on Hispanic American women as portray in the historical literature, type, or archetype. A Louisa gives us a very good insight or what the real historical image of the Latin American women was, and I quote from her from her article, a diverse group, different types of strong and independent women who nevertheless partake of the attributes of the eternal feminine. She well there is also good bibliography in this I'm sure you can find and as soon as your library In women in Latin America, and historical perspective, and also the magazine that is published in Mexico and is called fam has an entire issue. The end of 1979 beginning of 1980 is called Women in the Mexican Revolution. There are many articles in there, as well as an excellent annotated bibliography by this game in English you can get it Mary Nasser gay and a s t e. R, is called an annotated bibliography of women in Latin America. And it was published in 1979. By JK home Boston.

Unknown Speaker  20:45
We again if you lose something, I will give it to you. Then the image of women as depicted in some of the literature of social protests, written by Latin women today maintain some of the qualities of the archetypical female, in effect, his Susa, the protagonist of Poniatowski, I stand over the hill whose meal is described as my quote, very manly, always enjoy playing war, and many other men's games. She's also depicted with some apparent contradictions. On one hand, she's, she's in favor of this manly behavior, which are the qualities that a good woman meaning brave, should have in order not to be stepped on by men. And on the other hand, a woman also must have certain qualities that would identify her as a woman, not a man, not a tomboy. For instance, in the story, his Sousa admires a woman's soldier for her military skills, and she says, Everyone obeyed her, she knew that the rain and the urn design the plans for attack and defense, she acted like a man when it came when it came to fighting. The meaning was that she was a very good fighter. And then she has Sousa ads. I don't know maybe she was a tomboy meaning that as a woman, she couldn't really act with Ramallah on this military know how, because they were kind of men qualities maybe she was not really a woman she was like a mixture in between things. Being also a she feels the need to say that well, this woman in a ways safe is because she she carried also three metals of the Virgin Mary around her neck, which is a way of linking her with the archetypical female is defined in terms of submissiveness, passiveness, helplessness, and also devotion. A many times also women use this devotion sometimes passiveness or helplessness, not just for the purpose of sexual definition, but many times is her own escape from being abused by men. A Susa herself does exactly that, after she performed gray military tasks where she saved the lives of about 25 soldiers to refuse to continue in command. And what the fear was that she thought she then she was going to be raped or abused by her male general. And to get away from that difficulty. She says, Well, after all, I'm just the widow of a soldier who just wants to go back home and she declines the job. When she gets older, she begins to be more conscious of the double standards. And then her resentments again men led her to take a stand against marriage, for her father marry her without her concerns when she was only 14. And then when her husband dies in battle, she refuses to marry again. And it's interesting to say why she's against that. And she says, acknowledging the economic problems that she's that she will endure as though we don't think woman, she says, I'd rather suffer economic problems that put up with a man and all the double standard this year of serving society, make your end use of the advantages of the male sex. And even though she's very critical of men in general, because they all take advantage of women and they abused them in any way they can. She would rather be a man sometimes because she says women will be better off being men. Certainly, it's a lot more fun. One is freer. Nobody makes fun of you. She says the condition of women Nevertheless, in a pessimistic way. She offers no hope. She proposes no changes. Nevertheless, there's no forget she is critical.

Unknown Speaker  24:28
She says at the end, for women. Issues the young man for the answer is Chase. Young men take advantage of her. And if she's older, they make fun of her. She also does something that is very important. She criticizes government corruption, especially after the revolution was over. According to her that revolution itself was corrupted. And it was an absurdity because it was a war among brothers. All other aspects of Mexican society dealt with in this novel from the point of view of a woman, our factory life, the church, the educational system, health care for the poor, and the elderly, domestic labor, and a great deal of her experiences is as a domestic worker. And this is important, because in the case of Mexico, according to a historian, Mexican historian in her article, women and social classes in Mexico is published in an anthology called exploitation, struggle and liberation policy Mexico in 1979. There are 483,344 Women's servants in Mexico, roughly speaking about 89% of the total domestic labor force. Now, in this fictional testimony, Elena Bonilla, Tosca writer, the piece of struggle and frustration of these Exodia data, trying to earn a living after the revolution is over. She's working for middle class homes in Mexico, capital. And her situation is typical of the illiterate woman, that we presented, the beginning of this, who comes to the city trying to escape from the poverty or the violence of the countryside, and she has no skills other than knowing how to do housework. A toward the end of the novel, she's poverty stricken and suffering from an illness that she got from years of working as a washing woman and cleaning floors, on her knees, disenchanted with men and society in general, the agent has Susa talks about her jobs as domestic servants will not tell, read the whole call. But I will tell you that she described in detail how she had to get done, her knee has crossed the floor, and every other day and paint them with the yellow paint. And then when she gets very sick to do that, she developed arthritis, they do it out of the house, because she's no longer useful. For a short time, then, after all, that seems to coalesce in her she finds constellation in religion, this is it doesn't seem to work at the end, because then she says that even religion is pure business and she becomes disenchanted with that. Just everything's corrupted, the whole thing is the same swan. And from that voice, is the voice of disenchantment, nevertheless, a critical voice. A, we go, I would like to turn to another women's voice. The last when the Bolivian minds who's full of energy and hope for the future. This is a testimonial account of working class women that participated in the tribunal of International Women's year in Mexico 1975. And she wrote a novel in Spanish that was played out maybe last year or the year before last into English and Spanish is in a better meeting of law. In English, I think it's literally let me speak right. And I told you the use of the tie of record player comes into play in this one because she dictated her novel to MOMA via sir Brazil, through apologists, who made them a publication by publication. I call this a non fictional testimony. As I said, it's a story told by a woman and this narrator is also the protagonist, and is, the story is given from the point of view of the village woman with her own popular and subjective interpretation of the events. I do not claim that this is a strictly historical analysis, but and I am quoting, MoMA via SIRs A, it does provide elements for their innovative historical analysis because it deals with an interpretation of the facts from a popular perspective. Let me just say here briefly, this is being done only with literature with what is called oral history in Latin America. I will also give you information about this if you're interested in this field later on. Here the narrator she narrates her life and experience as a woman organizer, as a mother as a wife with a tremendous social awareness. Or we'll just discuss, discuss briefly what constitutes the bulk of the book which is entitled her life.

Unknown Speaker  29:28
She narrates her life from early childhood until her incorporation to what was called housewife committee. A, her childhood was full of hardship. She was the eldest and a group of five and her mother die she was in charge of the younger sister. Nevertheless, she managed to go to school and she learned to read and write and though her father couldn't help him much, he sort of accepted that she attended a school for a few years now in a fashion that is similar to her suit Domitilla then continues to criticize different aspects of society and how they subdue and how they control women. And based on your own experience, she criticizes the educational system, because she says, I learned to read and write at school, but they did not educate me to understand our reality, our life. I think that that's very important, especially coming from a woman. She also, for awhile seem to find consolation in religion, and she entered the Jehovah Witness group. But that was a very brief interlude. She also becomes terribly disappointed with that. And she says, it seems to me that religion was servants in the power for underage, she never loses completely her faith, but she doesn't enter any other religious group, she marries a man worker. And then she becomes a women organizer, and she helps consolidate the housewives committee. Then, alongside the economic needs that propelled the formation of the describe, there is an enormous social awareness as women and workers that underlie the basis of this organization, even though it is called housewives in meeting the women this committee they were fighting for improvement of their standard of living, they started out under very difficult conditions. They didn't take as women, they didn't think of doing any other tasks aside from taking care of their homes. No. And she said, at first, we believe we only knew how to take care of the house, we didn't think we were able to understand social and political problems, then they started demanding better working conditions for their husbands first, as they grew more militant, are more aware of the specific social problems affecting women, they also start to fight for the incorporation of women into the labor force for the protection of widows for better pay for women workers, for the right of women to actively participate in decision making processes. All of this is new, but a simple, creative friction among the women, especially among the men, men for whose girls they were fighting for. The believer in minor and then, by extension, say the Latin American, minor, and workers, and so on and so forth, wasn't used to seeing his wife in the role of social fighter. These women were first rejected by their own men, literally, quoting from the the novel, after the testimonial attempt, they will tell them go home, go to good God to do the laundry to your things at home. They couldn't take this woman seriously. And they also fear them. On the other hand, the establishment capitalize on this. And they began to punish the men because of the whites activities. At the end, they start punishing the women as well. Nevertheless, the meteor lands on the optimistic side, and she says improvement as far as men except in this social role of the women. She admits that about to be your state, about 40% of our men are still reluctant to accept that the women get involved. I want to say here that to understand this, which is I hope one of the factors or elements that we can expand on later on in the discussion. We have to understand the long tradition of Hispanic machismo Yes, I'm not using a word that is old demo day, still very much alive, not American, fortunately, and is still present, even among the very progressive and radical groups in Latin America, and Latin countries as well. A also to sort of link this was discussed this morning, we have to understand the patriarchal roots of our societies and the ideology that seems to be dominant. A good example of this is seems to be a contradiction, but still very happening is the case of women in revolutionary Cuba. Today.

Unknown Speaker  34:00
Just I'm gonna mention briefly two articles, one who was published in the early 70s by Linda Jen's in the article the successful battle against discrimination. She gives us a very positive view of women in Cuba, but she also points out that by quote, although much progress has been made, complete equality still does not exist. male chauvinism in Cuba hasn't been completely done away with yet. Now updating this Nadi family's Paris stably wrote an article in the Latin American perspectives last year, entitled toward the emancipation of Cuban women. And she deals with the problems that the Cuban society is facing facing right now, especially regarding the implementation of the family code and the resolution 4748 In terms of not discriminating job opportunities for women along sexual lines and The very complicated situation. And she seems to, to agree to the fact that still there is a lot of work to be done in that area. And it's not just because men are reluctant to accept women in certain areas, but also women themselves are not wanting to incorporate themselves into the labor force fully. And it's a very complicated problem. I think she, she is very good in dealing with that. And she did, she has done extensive research and q&a, especially women and the working the working Cuban women, and their cooperation into the labor force. Now Domitilla, in summarizing goes on, into more millet, she becomes more militant, and she becomes to talk to other women organizing them, at the same time participate in always as a women into the, into the political struggle that is taking place in Bolivia at the time, she also discusses her role as a mother. And I think that's something that is new, and because of the perspective which is dealing with it, and she places she stresses the importance of teaching children with a clear understanding of what is happening in society on the struggle they're living in. A first is one one of this chapter she chose when she's been now prosecuted for her ideas. She refuses to save her children from imprisonment by handing them over to rotary club women. Because she says, if my children die in prison, I am not the one to blame, but the government were incarcerated or so she's like very conscious of how important it is to raise your children with a different consciousness and with no clear understanding of the whole picture. A I would argue that her life portrays a vivid example of how a women fighter also seems so much more desperate than a man, and therefore brings out the worst from her oppressors. Not only is she a rebel, but she's also a woman. And that seems to be like a double heresy. She's the victim of police brutality when she's pregnant, and she has to deliver a baby in a prison cell. And she's afraid that the soldiers would take revenge on her child. And then she wishes the baby to be born dead. And she almost died trying to delay the delivery of the baby, because the soul you have promised that they would knife the baby to death. A piece unfortunately did happen and noted the novel The baby was born dead. But a two years ago in a Brazilian jail, resilient feminist, activist, political activist, it was torture. And she wasn't pregnant, but she had just given birth about two or three months ago. And they use the baby as a way of coercing her into giving out certain information, and they murdered the child in front of her. Roy Brown, I don't know if you're familiar with him, is one of the leader voice leading voices in Latin American music, wrote a beautiful poem and then he put the music to it about this case. Let me let me just go faster, a now let me just give you a few more things on this. I also would like to argue and say that in literary terms with Domitilla, which is the heroine, and protagonist and generator, this essay,

Unknown Speaker  38:40
we are confronted with a complex and powerful image of women from humble origins, who, like many others is a struggling for social justice for both men and women, and who in the process acquires political consciousness. Two aspects, I think should be considered new in this portrayal of women. First, she wants us to see her as men as one of many not just one exception of women. And secondly, she's never worried about justifying her femininity. She succeeds though with much effort in gaining the respect and support of other men and of her husband, as theories, women with the social commitment. The importance of this word, I think, is perhaps given by Moim abusers forward when she said, there are few testimonies of men or of a woman from the mind from the countryside or from the ghettos where the protagonist, not only in a race, the situation that he or she is living in, but also is aware of the causes and mechanisms that create or maintain that situation, and he or she is committed to the struggle for changing. I think that these literary works that I mentioned, that are written by women and about women, it has to be understood within the context. of the socio political conditions that characterize the Latin countries. And I think that in order to do that the Latin women are utilizing new and old forms of literary expressions that best suit their voices of protest, such as the novel essay, the testimonial account fictional and non fictional. The diaries, letters Domitilla Anisha. Sousa differ in the degree of social and political consciousness, as well as in their perspective of the prominence of women in Latin America. But I believe that they are both of them a creative testimony, denouncing women's oppression. And in the case of the Mattila proposing specific changes to improve that condition, I also would argue, finally, that they are historically literary important, and they are representative of a new trend of literature by women in Latin America today. Maybe from here, we can start exploring more of this new trend of Latin America, women in America today. Thank you. Let's see. Questions, comments? Have you

Unknown Speaker  41:13
invested connection? Press that women's work or Women's International Resource Exchange was published in extract, which includes some of what you great, if you're interested, give me your name and address.

Unknown Speaker  41:40
One thing that you talked a little bit about, but you go into depth is the relationship between religion, Christian religion, and writing and how the church feels about.

Unknown Speaker  41:59
All right, a very important person. All right. We know that Latin American countries in general, are mostly Catholic countries. Certainly that's the case in Colombia. And nevertheless, we have what is called life within the church itself, a very socially aware group with what we call the prosthetic church, know that I know of I'm thinking mainly about groups such as Mexico, where, when law around that area, it was a very militant group of progressive Catholic priests, who would not more than just not opposing this movements, we try to incorporate them and, and worked with them on many issues, mainly, those dealing with population control, health care, the problems of abortion, and in America, their biggest problems. And so it's, it's a part of the church. But nevertheless, the traditional church is very much opposed to what women are doing. And they are doing many things. The movement in Latin America, women's movement in Latin America, is not only alive, is growing, and is branching out and incorporating women from different sectors. And if I may elaborate a little bit on that, one of the things that is important that is happening is how they are trying to work alongside with political activist who are trying to bring about social changes, also trying to incorporate the problematic of the women and in a way trying to create like a common platform. Specifically in the case of Mexico, there are several groups now who are working independently, or as women, feminists, women organizations. And now there is an attempt to bring them on the one general umbrella because one of them was working for the law working for but sort of along the lines of the ideological party that was in power. Another one was defined on the lines of the Communist Party and the other one was more trust guy than communist and all these plates that were affecting, not just the women women but the left the organized left in Latin America. Martha Acevedo now is one of the leaders of the of the movimiento de la liberazione femenina, Mexico, and last year, there was an interview in the New York Times I'm intervene here, and I can give it to you. And she spoke precisely of the need for this coalition, and what they're working, there are limitations to problems. But nevertheless, I gathered from that interview, a strong sense of going forward, perhaps even more aware that the struggle for women's rights should go alongside the struggle for

Unknown Speaker  45:28
work. That's not exactly my field. Nevertheless, there are there are articles that I get maybe one or two. And it's interesting. I don't. There is Latin American historian so Pitney from SUNY or Westbury, who probably by now finished his doctoral dissertation. And right now she's working for the grants department at Stony Brook are no women in this pre colonial and early colonial times. And through my conversations with her, the picture seems to be very complex, especially in the pre colonial times, in terms of what do we know about Indian organization? So what do we know about the situation of the Indian woman? There are some work done mainly by anthropologists in the field. And a, I would say that, even though we can generalize too much, there was a sexual division of labor. Labor was about sexual lines, yes. However, due to the same organization, society, women seem to have a little bit more control in society, especially in certain areas, but in general, there was a sexual division of labor as well. I'm thinking mainly about the two main Indian groups, the southern call center, there's a good article on the NIH a woman like to get to the question

Unknown Speaker  47:21
that I don't believe are continuing. But I know that he's been very African Nicaragua, he set up the program there help to set up the program

Unknown Speaker  47:33
to sell I believe he's working. Do you think that the literacy programs

Unknown Speaker  47:41
it took about frame I do I mispronounce the name? So?

Unknown Speaker  47:49
What do you think to deliver some programs? What will they do with literacy is as development of consciousness, conscience and consciousness? Do you think that in Latin American societies that a critical examination of sexual roles goes along with that, I mean, examining

Unknown Speaker  48:17
the mechanisms of oppression,

Unknown Speaker  48:21
consciousness that

Unknown Speaker  48:25
ever comes into part of

Unknown Speaker  48:29
the learning process.

Unknown Speaker  48:31
That place that gets examined at

Unknown Speaker  48:34
work in the media should start by saying, I'm taking the liberty of talking about Latin America, like that. Very diversified continent. Very complex entity, and for just for the purpose of discussion, talking Latin America. In the let me just narrow down then that question, let's say for instance, there are differences in what has been done, for instance, in Cuba, or what has been done in places like Colombia, what has been done even through Mexico, a, in terms of what is what has been done in Colombia? I will say no. And, yes, I participated in one. And I shouldn't do that. But it was frustrating. Yes, but it was very frustrating. Okay. And really, there was very much concern as to just one field test. And the issues were never raised anything it's wasn't part of it. You're just learning to be if they could learn, very limited no money

Unknown Speaker  49:47
and zoom words in here

Unknown Speaker  49:51
as well, in Latin America, to to be stopped in those countries. Now in Cuba, with all the contradictions and problems that we remember probably from Lucia, remember that the teacher can we have the revolutionary may not trusting when was going to happen? I believe those problems are being dealt with, but they're still being, you're still having. Nevertheless, if there is a place that's what I would I would have been radical changes in terms of considering education in terms of what do we feel and says, they're just teaching me how to read and why but this awareness, whatever I am this society. I think it's an example or at least a drastic change for the bank, and what's happening by the way. Comments, questions on how to see that

Unknown Speaker  51:02
you don't want to be published. I was assuming that the bulk

Unknown Speaker  51:12
of what's been published in Latin America has been published in the context of

Unknown Speaker  51:16
universities. Where and how difficult is it for women in trying to get involved in publishing in universities and things? And how easy is it for them to do that? And are things like organs like newspapers? How are they dealing with those issues? How's the writing?

Unknown Speaker  51:39
Okay, publishing, physical publishing is very difficult. There are outlets and one of the things that the women's movement is trying to do instead of organize in an organized fashion trying to tap into Israel and get things out there new things being published and older countries I would say with this seems to have a very positive outlook right now. I don't know why they do. I mean, two good books just came out last year to be women in federal several heading and federal, by Anna Maria alegria. It was a private editorial publisher and seem to run the Caspi that in blue, which is like chastity belt in Peru a and if that's that's the way it's gone. And it's a collection of essays, mostly sociologists and historians, on the conditions of women. What's happening, women in Peru they also have, they will also interview Annamaria for too well was interview in Leiden at issue of fam and we're along with me. And she gives a very also optimistic outlook. Not simplistic, but more hopeful to quote somebody think this morning about what's happening in Latin America. It's not just that they're coalition's and movements. It's also their publications coming out. women writers, there is going to be an important Congress in Mexico, maybe you already know about it. In June 3 through sixth in Mexico, the goal of women writers is going to be yes, yes. And papers could be handed in French and English, Spanish. Excellent. Women aren't organizing it. Elena wouldn't be here today. Is Friday, going to be better organized in Mexico, the capital? Yes, the autonoma in the Autonomous University. And there is also in Puerto Rico going to be next for an important Congress of Latin American sociologists. And a great deal of the workshops or a good part of the conference is going to address the issue of the Latin America women. Also, remember, it's not a last year a at the last, so not less. A this is a Latin American Studies Association. The was a workshop headed by Marcia Rivera. And she delivered a paper a copy of that has been been published for distribution yet which shows the problem is printed. But how many people can get to it is not it's a private printing arrangement by setup which is the center of research of Puerto Rican reality. And she deals with the incorporation of the Puerto Rican woman to the labor force, statistical schoolwork and everything. So many things coming out like pouring like that many good translations Rosario Christiana was just translated and there Many good articles let me give you one may marry a Hearne H E R N. This was published in a span Orfila magazine ad. A and it is an Omega he or Rosario Garcia, a collection of critical essays on Rosetta Stone and one of them is very important because in Cairo feminist and political ideas or something like that is BC on feminist apolitical in Rosario gusta Yang, I give you more detailed information on that also is my and they're very good with remembering numbers and things. But it's it was translated also Alfonsina Storni is being translated. And I think it's excellent because that gives us a tool making resume and great feel. There is a group in Mexico that has been publishing a lot through sepsis and many other things. But they did a lot of good critical essays on women in the Hebrew on women in Latin America. We probably know about them. I don't know. Lamb of hair, Lucius protests you'll never assume and also like marking up a leader

Unknown Speaker  56:20
in Puerto Rico. Last year, yes, the end of last year, a Rosario Perrey. Also published a collection of essays to score CPO Aidells modular fashion, what was it that the man was doing in more healthy civility, which is it was out of print, by the way that I don't know they would, they probably should, again, a collection of essays like this process of testing and for women to do deals with literary analysis, images of women and also within historical and social conditions, specifically the Mexican woman, but by and large

Unknown Speaker  57:02
most of them are like, small, not necessarily. That's why for instance, subsidies into small distribution. This book is an excellent book. Mohair Salatin, which comes from a medieval saying that says a woman who knows Latin doesn't have a husband and doesn't have a good end a she started as well. I know that two years that's the Young was Rosario Castilian. Also things bye bye Elena La Rue in Mexico, very good. She wrote Yes, well, you can get a few things by her according to the medical for have a great deal

Unknown Speaker  57:52
of difficulty getting in and then I was well

Unknown Speaker  57:55
getting any writers. I went to even

Unknown Speaker  58:01
more here it was.

Unknown Speaker  58:08
Well, yes, yes, I forgot that detail. edition. We were gonna give them we had an SEM, his new novel is gonna come out. It's gonna be a million issues. Yeah. A

Unknown Speaker  58:36
lot of the last two Latin American literature in the sense, yes. For example, there was a whole literature group women writers, wrote novels of the Mexican Revolution.

Unknown Speaker  58:52
And also, perhaps what is happening now is not just the creation of of these novels or novel essays, but kind of like recovery. Well, was not only in terms of history, but in terms of literature. I think that that is important. Being known now, whereas before, it was certainly the case in one of the countries where we're expecting most out of in terms of feminist input, I would say been Brazil, okay, I know of very good Diary of a woman from one of these favela, biani, Surya, who wrote about her life, and she wrote in form of a diary, which is very interesting. As a diary in diary form, you can read about that in reference A collection also the criticism, another factor is being to merge feminist criticism sort of consolidating? Did you understand where Mexico

Unknown Speaker  1:00:24
would be

Unknown Speaker  1:00:28
struggling? Why would

Unknown Speaker  1:00:34
I have been interested in through lately? A? It seems to me that other than they had women there in key points key positions at an important time. I don't I noticed sociologist facility here to kill me just a literary critic, but it seems to me it has to be a coincidence coincidence of factors that helped that out. Because otherwise, nevertheless, nevertheless, they do seem to have a history of more outspoken feminism brought up response, for instance, a Peruvians was saying she's a she's a she was a feminist. And yeah, but she also wrote about the condition the women there, and she certainly had a lot of things. Yeah, yeah. But still, it's there. And there are many women who participated more So also you have to have into account the situation of the colonial times where the centers the important centers were making one of them for the Viet right now. No, and around there, they take the area of the ground Columbia and of course then the the stolen call, but the repression in the southern colonies so, so enormous, that is very hard to do anything. Nevertheless, it's very much alive, very much alive.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:08
Thanks, model very simple application out there asking for help from the rest of us, by the way, keep planning put it out every couple of months. And it is genuinely feminist. A lot of what I've seen before that came out. Claiming to be feminist really turned out to be appendages to political parties. What is this? And

Unknown Speaker  1:02:39
it was this But where's it? Cynthia?

Unknown Speaker  1:02:43
Also, the genial women in exile are watching. For many, many women. Yes, yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:05
Trying to find out how much you know, in the last few decades, in the literary world to me that after Mexico are running neck and neck with Mexico, Argentina, lots of lots of voters from Argentina.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:27
Say there is a thesis being done here by a Columbia Graduate student.

Unknown Speaker  1:03:33
And I'm doing surveillance. I guess many of the art team members are not all very good. In our case. I know about Mormons and I've had a chance to be but the Vita or Fe and

Unknown Speaker  1:03:54
it's not enough for us to

Unknown Speaker  1:03:55
know. Many that's that's one of the things that in spite of the oppression by there was an article called a bizarre the lacuna in spite of the what is happening, because there seem to become a stage where we thought Latin Americans thought this is going to be the end, for many years is going to be silent is impossible to battle oppression. But now part of it has been sort of presenting that is it's very much happening. And in spite of all the censorship, in spite of all the problems, they are writing, I sort of talked about Peru mostly because there seems to be more like in the theoretical aspect of it, which seems to be lacking in many of our countries in terms of women and the situation of women and the condition or where to go from and this problem of working with organized left groups and what happened. Yes, in general. Yes. It seems to me that in blueprints are the case that I just thought it was from Peru also a case Where there's like interviews of maids in Lima. And there's a psychologist present that attempts to draw conclusions that

Unknown Speaker  1:05:12
modern social struggle in

Unknown Speaker  1:05:16
Colombia is not very much into this kind of publication yet. But I, there are possibilities. And one thing that I haven't mentioned yet is in SWAMI, which is cannot be overlooked, maybe, maybe we can talk about, but that a the participation, the problems of participation of women into armed struggle and the reactions and the problems in dealing with the own men talking about divorce, Nicaragua, certain women men one thing is to have all these ideas and you know, going to these meetings, but when it comes to leaving me home with the children so that you can go to meeting a there are problems there. And they were there. They were forcing any kind of women into this double day situation and they granted interviews and there were divorces and there were problems among very politically aware Nicaraguans And nevertheless, they are taking up arms, like in credit increased numbers are increasing women taking up arms in what Amala certainly solve a lot. Which is helping again creating a new picture a new image of women they certainly did. They certainly did. I have no figures but they certainly did. And in in Salah Lord also they certainly are talking mostly about

Unknown Speaker  1:07:00
a lot of women are concentrating on nonfictional thing, history or essay, diaries.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:11
There they are, but what am I just concentrate on this that literature? Because it seems to me that it's it's new. And and it's what they're probably trying to do, which is one of the areas that I did not develop here is the literary impact of this attempts to create new forms, new means to say new things to develop even a new line, gosh, no new language. And, in fact, this is one of the issues that are going to be addressed this Mexico conference. I mean, are they creating new things? Because now they are instead of being the object of literacy, they're becoming the subject in a very critical way? Because they are not seeing themselves as stereotype of the women defined in terms of relation to a man? Is that changing? Is that change in literature? Is that changing the way the traditional novel is being? I think it is, right? And this is an educated guess. I believe that this is the way we're going to be seeing more and more of this type of literature written by a woman, because there is the need to make people realize this is true. Isn't that just a story, and maybe they're looking for that impact? You know, verisimilitude? If it didn't happen, it's probably

Unknown Speaker  1:08:31
something to do with class and race. What traditionally, those women who have been who have been able to write or those women could connect to read, write, which is a very small percentage of the population, they're generally Hispanic and the whole the whole issue of the Indian versus Hispanic and the rural versus the city is so important in the future. And so the testimonial then becomes a vehicle for the upper class and middle class white women from the city to somehow establish contact

Unknown Speaker  1:09:06
for reaching out definitely read cement in the idea of looking for coalition looking for common grounds, unite in attracting the other women that it's very difficult, okay, I did some exploration with person women, a my migrant, migrant migrant women from Latin America in Long Island. And one of the problems this was a long time ago, and I just thought that if I give them my feminist rhetoric I can get through, and I There are many subtleties, many problems involved. And and I was stopped, in fact, this, this happened when I was in New Jersey television. And this woman said, but what is all this about? Feminism? I mean, I have other problems that I think are more important that you don't seem to be addressing. You're talking about literature. I was talking about novels, some Only three in the middle. And as you said, it doesn't say much to me. I mean, I feel that I want to identify with that. That's not talking to me. And it doesn't talk about survival. That's where I'm at right now. And I think to continue with with that idea, I think, what these women are doing this, okay, we're from the class, yes. They don't deny it. They are, most of them are. And, and that's why we're writing. That's, that's why we're publishing and doing all these things when you then have mates and then you call them and they don't answer the phone, because the women, then they do the houses. Right. Right. So they have that. And and it's the difference that gap is there. And what are you going to tell this woman who are struggling from five to 12, you know, Friday from 5am to late. And perhaps one of this new attempts to get them is writing a literature that is up and up that is flexible enough to say in that problems, there are their own, and also a word Domitilla the that that's why I think is so important. She didn't write a novel, she dictated it to a machine and then more memories are well, not only was she to take them for like interviews and things.

Unknown Speaker  1:11:19
Not in Spanish.

Unknown Speaker  1:11:20
Okay. I know a very good friend of mine, Emma. I was told that she did, Incorporated I Maura into the narration of her story. But she made us into Spanish dictated

Unknown Speaker  1:11:36
very tricky.

Unknown Speaker  1:11:39
There was a congress, oh, the woman who asked about the Indian there was a congress in Bolivia years ago, a year ago, two years ago, big discussions where he and I met up engaged mostly in your women working in the mines by ETS for doing that can very menial, low pay job. And it was a feminist Congress. And the language that they use was Amara, and definitely if you read a similar meeting of LA, a native, yeah, as native, but nevertheless, the ideas are there. Many times there are many diminutives in there, which is pretty much part of Latin American Spanish, but like it seems like maybe more so maybe it's a way of sort of coaching her language into stealing inspiration. So to speak, Spanish is more than a there is a theory. The Linguist part of it, they say that because of the long and still present subordination of the Indian in Latin America, many of their translation into Spanish became with diminutive which sort of portray or exemplified their condition and subservient attitude toward the master. And so instead of saying like, Would you pass me the soul please? Which is very simple thing to say, Would you really please cannot pass me the soul type situation. Makes sense? Like, I'm not a linguist, but it does explain. So do you see that the women are

Unknown Speaker  1:13:22
struggling in Latin America? I guess writers are developing your own. Like they're developing their own voice rather than going to conditional. They're not like just doing what the men were the literary, male literary.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:37
Next, yes, and I think he sometimes said it, as the yellow said, and I think she shows a drastic change in her poetry as well. I just delivered paper last week on the Sarika theorems. And one of the things that I sort of pointed out to them is that there is a change in her poetry and Kinsta report. For instance, if you're familiar with gusta yawns, or three, has almost no metaphor. And she, the whole idea is to what somebody said, like the mystification debunking the stereotype of women in different areas, she's attacking motherhood. In Latin America, a mother's meditation is saying, I don't know if that's the same situation here Protect America, certainly. And she attacks. And she says, you know, let's, let's not think that she's not saying let's not be mother, but she was a mother herself. But she said, there's nothing that this is a sanctification of women, unless realize that this is a phenomenon and all the implications that it has, and how talking about dynamics of control how the system uses this very institution of motherhood, to control women to limit women. And that's one of the tip tags virginity. And you'll be surprised to find out that two years ago, I did a polling in one of my classes and two, three years ago, since I was oh, it was very, most of the males admitted that they will run them out version 1819 20. So it's pretty much alive. And it's part of this ideological control. And of course, women react to that what is expected of them, you know, and what they want to be on

Unknown Speaker  1:15:17
the flip side of developing a new voice literature's and how you disseminate that literature to people and maybe literacy rate among Latin American women is so high. Is there any work being done by women writers at developing new ways to tapes or public appearances? And how are we going to talk about having their writing?

Unknown Speaker  1:15:40
Go out? Okay, one of the channels that has been used specifically for longer, which is the case that I know that there is something that's called Public Television, sometimes it works sometimes doesn't work, but at least is there. So women have been going through those channels that way, we're doing very much what Zillow was saying that should be done, like utilize the resources that are here. I mean, let's do some days there, let's let's use them, not necessarily, because I believe in that political ideology, but they are there, let's use them. And, and this is very much controlled by the government, not that the women are supporting the government's position by anyway, but they're using the product innovation, to put like, dramatic sketches, for instance, of different novels. And they're incorporating the problematic of the woman in those romantic sketches and things that are already done, sort of trying to replace a little bit they're so popular and that translations incredible translate direct translations of many of the American you know, cereals. So the trick is to slow processes little by little, they are not very popular, but they're happening. They're using that as for entertainment, and also for teaching as teaching tools. They are and they are doing films nevertheless. Okay, when you come to that is money, who's going to pay for a film to be shown? And how many theaters Do you have how many women have the time or the money to go see that? It's problematic. I kind of be like, ah, optimistic, it is problematic is not easy.

Unknown Speaker  1:17:13
I was I was on one two months, I was wondering if there was any women like them? If there was any women flying the middle tradition of, you know, political murals. CTRs

Unknown Speaker  1:17:25
you know, in painting and painting, I don't know much about that. There. Probably some of you, anybody in art, painting. I will there have been women painters, who have been excellent and very good. I don't know like right now who is doing what, I don't know much about that field specifically, but Leonor Fini in this 60s and 70s, was from the Southern Cone, Chilean and Argentinian. She was Chilean, Leonor fini. She was I saw her paintings she was portraying, she was attacking the myth, the stereotype myth of the woman and she was portraying the the male were, like very elongated figures, like really week looking. And then the woman was kind of stronger and sometimes with figures of animals and things, sort of like maybe like an attack if you want or exaggerating the myth that women have to be weaker, submissive in everything she was doing. Part of which was kind of a surrealistic paintings. I don't know what's happened.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:42
Do you know where I'm most trying to find out about

Unknown Speaker  1:18:46
the name of the woman who had that? The Museum of Modern Art? The famous wife as we say that pretty Frida Kahlo? Yes, I shouldn't say that. ideology is very powerful. You may change structures but it's very hard to change my fear not only men's moms but

Unknown Speaker  1:19:13
the and then the I'm sure that that is that was about three years ago right Carlos I don't know they

Unknown Speaker  1:19:35
may have had something when they had the Mexican

Unknown Speaker  1:19:43
Did you check with them? They could tell you what

Unknown Speaker  1:19:48
to say another way of coping with the problem of low literacy among women. To some extent, the comic strip technique seems I've seen some mature Welcome the Dominican Republic in comments form addressed to women factory workers dealing with the question of how they're producing profit in my name I was involved with that. And in Mexico and Coronavirus I think this is probably church related is a publication called Medea

Unknown Speaker  1:20:24
needed which deals not only with women's issues but more and more is dealing with women's issues and they use the photo novella technique

Unknown Speaker  1:20:35
it's been used a lot for the mobility make because women we rely on increasing numbers and also jokes. Jokes, my Jason English are terrible joke que es jokes. For the first time, women have been a making jokes. And it was just a way of doing it. That's part of the technique of Assetto, Corsa. Yanis, exaggerating everything making a character out of it. So you read it and you get a laugh, but this is this is this is me, and this is what I've been doing. And I think it's it's happening in Latin America. We're joking about it. And I think that's more powerful than Coronavirus. Certainly. A lot of black women like Toni Morrison it's the same Oh, this is Jonas who like a I know if you're familiar with this, probably but probably haven't in English as well on a solid 60 on in the story. I mean, the it's been translated, yeah. So you probably have that

Unknown Speaker  1:21:40
testimony like human woman, Margaret Randall.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:44
Which is more an update on that. She's, she's

Unknown Speaker  1:21:48
Puerto Rican, she was involved with

Unknown Speaker  1:21:52
say their essays for weaken women. To know a little bit about a for those of you who want like more the historical perspective, and we psychopathy you familiar with her, you better be in school. My ideas about what it is to be a women worker. And she was one of the key organizers in the early beginnings of center of the century, of the women workers in the in the tobacco industry. Louisa cavity you she organized women and she was more acting the minimum wage when she wrote several essays. One of them is called my ideas. You if you look on the Louisa capacity, your history, we can use CIP e t i l l o my ideas of what it is to be she's a feminist, being a woman, and worker, and she's she was also an organizer. It's an article or is an essay

Unknown Speaker  1:23:06
in theatres, collection, labor history.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:16
The wife, the husband, just do bad things as the husband of Mark.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:22
This might be a little bit off the topic, but I was wondering, do you know much about the reproductive rights struggle in Latin America or Mexico? And what's the status of it is

Unknown Speaker  1:23:33
I could tell you about up to what was happening in the 70s. Okay. There was kind of a mobilization against the population control organizations in Latin America. Why? Because they thought it was an attempt against women and against the Latin countries, and also because they were Rockefeller foundation money, and that immediately in America, it's developed no reaction to it. Also, because there were many experiments done with the pale before it was sold in Latin America, specifically Mexico, also because of the incredible sterilization, mass sterilization of Puerto Rican women. And there was like a reaction to anything that sounded like control Planned Parenthood. Also, because in countries such as mine, a the church very much in general is in favor of large families. And there are other reasons that are even more powerful. I told you about the large person population, they need hands to work in the field and they tend they kids die many that I mean, the infant mortality is incredible. So they only have one child is not like in here where you can have 2.3 kids and they will grow up and go to college. Ah, right. But there, it's like you have five, maybe three die, and two will continue and you need their support, there are no social security benefits really like you have in here. So all age is, you need that to back you up. So there are many, many elements involved in how that is perceived and how that is received. There are clinical iPlanet, because you're familiar, yes, mostly used by middle class, and upper class women, some pencils, but not. And then also, I don't know, if you're familiar with Latin countries, maybe countries like Colombia. Roads are not like interstate Long Island Expressway. So it's very difficult to have access to all these places. So that also doesn't help. There is even a big money reward for the woman, the mother of the year, who has the most children. Not blind, that's true. I mean, I'm not against motherhood, I love my child. But one thing is that another thing is not taken into account and at home and exciting any only in childcare, or childcare. It's very difficult, very difficult. Nevertheless, if you belong to a middle class, then you have maids, then another movement that has happened in the maids, which is I haven't gotten into any of them here. They are becoming organized as the case in blue. And they are no longer wanting to work, they are going to the factories and trying to go to night school and do things. So if you go to reunion with tea for tea or coffee to a middle class gathering of ladies looking at how terrible it is to get a mate, because they they live, you bring them from the countryside.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:57
Is the women's movement, raising the consciousness of these middle class woman? Do you think to the issue of may? I mean, do you see these movements of the maids and the the movement, the women's movement in the middle class? intersecting at all or completely, because that's not some one of those issues that came up today earlier that the issue of white women oppressing black women and

Unknown Speaker  1:27:23
a jury some of them? Yes, yes, there's delays, and they'll end up on the ATO SCA. Referee, they have made in way, though, they don't want the title, but they're dealing with women's issues. And one of the things that they say is that they have no alternative. And they gotta write, they gotta work. And they also want to family. What they do probably is improve the conditions. That's what they're doing in thinking more in terms of hired hand. And at the same time sort of sending the domestic servants to school and paying them a better the case of last Maria maybe is very much there. There seems to be like a contradiction, feminist and middle class for what you do. guilty feelings in trying to look for time agreements and middle of the road positions. daycare services need to be improved. Most certainly,

Unknown Speaker  1:28:29
that seems to be a primary issue. And yes, and it's

Unknown Speaker  1:28:33
very difficult and they're not enough, not even in Cuba, there has addressed has tackled the problem. Maybe on a more government sponsored basis. There are not enough. Not enough for the working woman. Yes, there are a lot of propaganda

Unknown Speaker  1:28:48
as there is in some of our rural religious areas. We used to be about how he was only a very bad mother who child in daycare center.

Unknown Speaker  1:28:57
Yes, yes. In fact, there is an article very interesting article, it was published and I have it in journal marriage and family. And it's it's an American sociologist, and she makes a comparison between the case of how the Latin American professional women says herself in terms of, of motherhood, the mother that sends the kids to be taken care for in another place. And what's happening here, and the Latin American woman seems to feel really more guilty but feeling that she's not really being a good mother. She was you know, she good when things were not there. Yes. And for that, I would say the ideology that we internalize is very powerful. It is

Unknown Speaker  1:29:40
so good to have alienation. In that in America, I mean, is it a is it a very strong attitude against that person who has declared herself or was the Come outspoken about.

Unknown Speaker  1:30:03
To put it bluntly. Yes, of course. It's difficult and it's very hard. The woman in Florida can testify to that. It's not easy, but where is it easy, right? There it might be more difficult aggravated by this. As I said long tradition. Patriarchy put it in the words Zillow, and machismo, oldest older social elements that really reinforces those patterns of what you know the traditional role of women. A, it is not easy, but I think that since the numbers are growing, that sort of makes you feel that you are not a strange person after all,