Unknown Speaker  00:02
that on the one hand, I wanted to engage with us a process here because there are many people here who are, you know, if you want to say why people get to be asked to be recovered and say, as qualified as I have to speak about the issues, which were, we've come to discuss, and therefore, a certain point, probably no matter what, no matter what I have left to say, I'm simply going to stop talking, and, and just simply have a discussion so that we are the articulation of the process of coming to terms with each other as a kind of community gets a gun. On the other hand, that's, that's something that's very, very important to me kind of intellectually, and emotionally, as a feminist. But on the other hand, to be very comic or funny, I decided at some point that the most efficient way of beginning was to do something that was very hierarchical, linear and deductive. So what I did was, that from what I was thinking about, I made up a definition, which I'm about to actually pass out, if I don't, you know, and I'm gonna give you this sort of thing. And then it can be used as something that's, like, nailed in the ground. And everybody can do what they want with it. It's a definition of female aesthetic, a possible definition, one possible definition, on which I've already sort of modified

Unknown Speaker  01:41
I want to talk for a while isn't that people kind of come in. And then when, when I feel like, like I had enough for me to faint or something, I'd like to go around the room and have everybody introduce herself. But not to do that at the beginning. Because because it I observed that it does funny things to people who want to see who was really speaking not to say their names. Okay, so I'll take it keep the great secret appears here.

Unknown Speaker  02:15
I also made this drop on my mobile, because I thought I would read a definition in Las Vegas and say why I use the terms that I did.

Unknown Speaker  02:30
I think that in a way, that perspective that I'm taking is very much like a cross between what Christiane was saying what Sally was saying, Sally, because she talked about strategies, strength, female strategies, and Christianne because the actual, the actual strategies that I want to talk about, you know, that I have this big list of are very similar to the strategies that she listed. However, the question that I want to get to some time, which she did not arrive at which, which en su town, you know, was, was saying to me, as we were leaving was, but that's the same thing as modernism? In other words, is female, aesthetic, sexually specific? And in what way can we talk about it being sexually specific, if, if everything that that characterizes the female aesthetic is also characteristic of other aesthetic movements within within our culture and how we can come to terms with that or whether it just remains the kind of problem so I would like to try to get to that anyway. There are alright, let me just say there are more chairs behind that thing very far back. And if you you can just take your chairs and bring them in there where there's a kind of hole behind, we're sharing their chairs. Okay, Sharon, I wanted to keep a path to the chairs because I've assumed that everybody's just just shove over his neck so people can just walk and get this. This is a wonderful room for non artistic production because it's an artistic you know, it has like evidence of the registered productions. Female aesthetic, the production of formal, epistemological and kinetic strategies by members of the group woman. Strategy is over determined by two elements of difference by women psychosocial experiences of gender asymmetry, and by women's historical status in an ambiguously non hegemonic group. That probably sounds really forbidding but actually, let me see whether I can pick it apart. So it makes a certain amount of sense. Actually, I would think I might want to add strategies born in contradiction, because I realized that although I'm very committed to the idea of contradiction that I managed to neglect it in the definition of what I mean when I say artistic production Okay, why do I What is when talk about artistic production, it means that, that a work of art like a text, or one's aesthetic assumptions, or a strategy to cope with or to resolve or to deal with a complex of material, okay. And that complex of materials, mainly the artists did not invent that is that they're given to the artist within culture. Some of them, I mean, I could run through lists, everybody could invent this list. Some of them are personal, psychic, familiar. Some of them are cultural, in a large sense, like your nation, your class, your sex, your race. Some of them are cultural, as we use the term in the artistic sense, relations to conventions of representation that existed in the past to literary texts in the past to one's language. Some of them are social in the sense of what's your actual position in society, what's your profession, what's your economic place. Some of them are historical and deal with the political or historical moment and all of that stuff. Is, is sort of, confronts the artist or confronts the one who wants to make Hi, Carolyn, there's chairs back there behind the flaming torch

Unknown Speaker  06:22
to speak up and you don't have to sit there, you just gotta get the cheers.

Unknown Speaker  06:37
Okay, yeah, no, that's people. I don't know, I'm, I'm probably going to delegate somebody, you should say cheers. You're over there, because I'm good. Okay. Principle, the female aesthetic, but this is. Actually, after an attempt to create a circle, we're actually going to recreate the classroom with everybody lined up in rows, which are arcs derived from an prior existing attempt at creating a chair

Unknown Speaker  07:28
the sheep, what I'm sort of assuming is that the female aesthetic, all right, is a strategy. That is it is one such strategy for dealing with that complex of material that I've just tried to outline. And I think that one of the important things about the notion of the text or the aesthetic as production is, you know, it feels with an actual person and actual time, faced with this sort of historical illegible complex, which was not invented by that person, but which somehow the person has to come to terms with and that the text or the etiology, that's, you know, the female aesthetic or whatever is going to have a function or many functions, it's going to have a personal function, it's going to have a social function to resolve a complex of materials. Okay, that's what I mean. But prior to, you know, Texas artistic production. It's interesting that Nins diary confirms this to confirm some notion of the text as a strategy. Okay, just as an example, or because Nins diary is a strategy that she invented. The the actual diary form is a strategy that she invented to solve a contradiction that women feel representing real psychosocial forces for women. One, and this is like, pretty clear, you know, but I'll just recall to you, what is the desire to please men, and that's super clear, if you read diary, one. In other words, the desire to please constituting yourself as an object, and the other is the desire to reveal which goes totally against the desire to please because it's telling the truth about a lot of things, and that constitutes yourself is as a subject. What happens is that each side of that contradiction represents real social forces for men and real sort of psychic forces, interior forces, and trying to create her voice is different, a tremendous problem, which she solves by the diary as a form by rejecting novel by rejecting fiction as as not telling the truth. And what she does is great manipulation. Which is that the diary is beyond fiction. It does tell the truth, okay, and that it is like a secret friend whom she can talk and all of that. But the diary is also attacked, and it's often attacked by people like Ron I'm Ken Miller, who she really wanted to please. So the diary then the diary via Ninh defends itself in a very unique fashion whenever the diary is attacked as a genre, you know, and somebody denies it's a fruitful use of her energies men, writes something in the diary about that person, and sort of kind of sneaks up to him and shows it to him. And then he, you know, he says, Oh, this is wonderful, how terrific that you're writing about me. And the diary, therefore has its own strategy of defense, which is that a desire to please as well as a desire to reveal and it's exactly that that nexus that she sort of makes what we then could call a female aesthetic, because it's a strategy coming from us from a psychosocial contradiction that she's given by her membership in the group woman. Okay. It's wonderful to read her yeah, he sneaks up on them and makes them and forces them to say, oh, but this is wonderful, you should continue to mean and continue writing about me. Okay, what I mean by the, or what I mean by sexual difference, or what is it by sexual difference might be actually clear. Now, in the light of what has been going on downstairs and outside, let me just indicate that the the psychosocial experience of sexual difference has has in fact been noted as a motivating force by women artists, in case anybody missed that. And that this, this experience of sexual difference has been thought by women artists like wolf or Tillie Olsen or Joanna Russ, to generate deep structures appropriate to women and also epistemological stance is appropriate to women. Okay, I want to also indicate that I feel very strongly that these structures can change that they are historically based, and I want to go and talk about that and have good teachers are revolting. Let me let me just indicate some sources for this idea that the experience of sexual difference has been strongly noted as a motivating force you probably know three guineas by Wolf,

Unknown Speaker  12:18
where she argues that the sexes are very divided from each other, and that their lived experience differs so greatly myth that men's and women's personalities that their mindsets and their values are drastically and almost irreconcilably different. And there's this quotation from three guineas, that we look at the same things, we see them differently. She talks about women as a class within a class, and how women's marginal physician means that they're not as bad into the establishment as as men are. Unfortunately, she doesn't treat the cat the counter argument which is really very damaging, that differential treatment of women and their exclusion might make them overvalue the establishment, which I think we also see around us but as she doesn't account for that it's more of a preliminary. So what she feels is that the experience of sexual difference makes women outsiders and of course, the analysis is based on that. Alice Walker on picks up Wolf's earlier, statement in in room one zone that women having divided loyalties and contrary instincts. Women in within culture also have to you have to understand that, that women are given an image of themselves within culture, and a lot of women are eloquent about that Judy Chicago's one, but I thought I would, I would put John Berger to remind you in ways of seeing that. One of the ways of constituting women in culture is that is as the object and he talks a lot about the nude, and and how a nude painting of a nude woman looks which is essentially that the spectator of the nude is outside the painting is a painting really about men looking at women and the principal protagonist of the painting is not painted. He is the man who has subscribed, bought the painting or somehow possesses the painting and the woman within it. The woman is arranged for display. And her nakedness is not an expression of her own feelings. I feel that his analysis is really paradigmatic of women's place in culture that women writers have to deal with the experience of sexual difference. This has led women like Wolf like Joanna Russ, men, like many women of whom those are just two indicators to talk about. As women different experience there will be differences in their writing, not just in plot and incident, but also in selection and method and style.

Unknown Speaker  14:57
Now I want to talk because that kind of An argument might move into a kind of an historical frame, we're one It feels compelled to assert, as Audrey Lorde did that there's a somehow trans, historical ancient difference which we can always tap, and always can get in touch with which I unfortunately do not feel. Well, while I appreciate her metaphor, I don't feel that it is, in fact, true. I would like to historicize this concept. And it may be true in the sense that is rediscovered, that is not true. And this is one can tap, I wanted to start says the idea of the strategies by pointing to the argument that Florence Nightingale made and Cassandra, which is a great book, a great word, actually. It's like the kinds of essays that women are now writing, it's very personal, and very nonlinear. It was written in 1852. And it was reprinted in re stretching the cause, and also is due to be repeated by the Feminist Press. It's really an absolutely amazing analysis of women within culture. And actually, if you excerpted gives you a kind of method for Feminist criticism, believe it or not, this is Florence Nightingale, you know, the nurse. Okay, she analyzes one motif, a thematic motif, okay, not a femoral motif. In women's writing, she talks about the orphan. And she situates the orphan. Within the nexus of 19th century female relations with the mother. She says that women put orphans in their books because they desire an employee for their for their, their independence, which they don't really have. And by forcibly removing from the plot, the closest enforcer of social scripts, you give the female hero a running chance. And although the female hero in these books might not have freedom from norms, they at least have a freedom from the enforces of norms. That is she's analyzing the plot strategy. And she's situating in the sister in a, in a Nexus really a family and social relations for women. I would say that in our literature now in the 20th century, except maybe the Gothic which of course, takes from these 19th century writings, this motif no longer appears, I hope to God that I'm right, because I'm using it as a you know, as as my historical bait now, so I don't really want to hear if I'm wrong, I'm right away. But I mean, the point will hold whether the example holds or not. The point is that the motif no longer appears in 20th century writing, because we no longer have a need for it, which means that although we can analyze we as adult analysis, analysis of critics, critics, critics cannot, analysts can understand why an orphan might appear in 19th century literature by women or that dealt with women. And we can valorize that appearance within the plot. We no longer need an orphan to do that kind of thing for us, in our in our writing. So we don't have orphans, we don't have that strategy is Now historically, in the 19th century, rather than 20, since we may have, I hate to use this word progress to another just another point, we may have another place for the mother, as an enforcer of social scripts. I mean, there's a lot of dead mothers, for example, instead of making, you know, so that it may be an orphan by another name, but we have done another thing with our desire.

Unknown Speaker  18:49
And that's what we're I would analyze women's historical status, women's historical status, which may change slowly, it may regress. It may do all sorts of things, but one needs in one's analysis of literature to be alert to the way that motifs or formal strategies may be historically situated. With that as an introduction, I want to go through my list which really resembles Chris John's a good bit, although I couldn't get all of her words down and I feel a little embarrassed and not being able to write so fast. I want to go through a list of things that I've found that are so to speak overdetermined formal strategies which have epistemological ramifications. I don't want to talk about thematic strategies. Personally, I like you know, the split self or room and because I think that a lot of women's reading has been critics have done that a lot. And so I'd like to move into the formal realm, but I'm not excluding them from discussion on what I mean by overdetermined. Okay, does everybody have this little sheet? Yeah. Okay. Is that no Okay, I made 60 People can hand them around here. I made 60. Now it's up to you what I mean by overdetermined it's a concept that comes from Freud. And how to say that is that one thing, one symptom, in Freud's terms, is, has many determinants. And that's an that's the only way that it can really not epiphenomenal Okay, words, let me let me give examples, because this is getting silly, I would name one element, one formal element of the female aesthetic, now at this moment for us, of kind of mutuality, all right, by which I mean a complex of things, a complex of words, that writing becomes like a kind of porous, intimate conversation, that communication is constituted as intimacy and personal contact, like a conversation with a reader, let sometimes like inner conversations where both of those that knowledge is at least partially subjective and relational as into the lighthouse. That emotional commitment is the female form of a quest can be the one female form of the quest to that event, it is an adventure. And then what one gets these multi voice poorest works, where the texture is a texture of mutuality, for example, Ins diaries, groups in reference voices, dwarfs waves, Orlando and that the reason that this happens, I talk about the reasons before I give examples, the reasons that this happens, is over determined by a number of things. One is the what somebody has said, this is Dr. Metzker, in in her image, and it is very much a woman is better than men argument. So I just give it I'm not too fond of it, that women are non competitive, they're not aggressive, that that sense of mutuality will necessarily lead to these nine not her forms. Rich and also Jean Baker Miller talk about this as as a function of female communication skills, learned really in the family which talking about motherhood and Jean Baker Miller talking in general about women's need to give and receive nurturance that is the socialized personality type of fostering others participating in the development of others. Taking two roles needing to take donor and recipient roles leads to art with a structure of giving and receiving of this porous open, intimate conversational form.

Unknown Speaker  23:42
Need, for example, talks about the way that she started to write the diary when she started writing it for a woman rather than as she began it originally in her original impulse reading it for a man that is her father, and there was a shift in what she did. That is that was precipitated by her relationship with Jun Miller, Henry Miller's wife and she talks about their talk, he talks about their conversation as a form of secret writing, what a language we talk undertones overtones, nuances, abstractions, symbols, then we return to Henry with an incandescence which frightens him. And she feels this language is language of mutuality, intimacy, Personal Contract, tact and almost mirroring as a kind of new thing, which she vows to try to let happen without putting it into form. And that becomes I think, the poetics that shows Miller generally becomes the muse for the diaries, and that becomes the poetics of the diary. And that's that sense of mutuality in writing and intimacy and personal contact. I wrote a paper which is about the female artists and fictional artwork in 2010. Through women's writing, and one of the things that I discovered was that in something like to the lighthouse, the artwork which Lily Briscoe does, the fictional artwork that's created is created by Lily's immersion in the personal vulnerabilities of recontacting, the dead mother and admitting her loss, her mourning. And the artwork which Lily makes in which she's blocked through 10 years is enabled and enabled only by that, at the beginning, Lily says I have a quest plot. My quest plot is to finish my painting, see, I'm not going to get married, marriage is a degradation and there's a whole passage of that I'll move the salt rather know the flower more to the middle, and so on. But Lily can't do her painting. And what Wolf is essentially saying is that the quest plot without the intermingling of the love plot is cannot produce a female art. And it's only by immersion in these vulnerabilities that the painting can be born recontacting the sense of love, loss and mourning. Another another element of the female aesthetic right now, for me is a sense of a both end vision, an anti dualistic nonpolarized vision. I feel that that there again, there's a complex of things that constitute this. One for me very strongly is a contradictory movement, which involves saying yes, saying no. Which is linked to being participating in the world of both mother and father, at least for me. There's no absolute, absolute tising of say, the father, or the mother. That's right. Again, I would disagree with somebody like Audrey, there is no authority when simply negotiates with a kind of negative capability among the contraries that have constituted the world. The sources of this are really amazing to me, I think the chatter has put her finger on them in her book. She talks about and it's very frank and very open. And it's a relief, really to have it said, on the bisexuality of women. That is the psychic bisexuality of women, the the oscillation, the bisexual oscillation between mother and father, that happens because of a different way that women resolve the Oedipal complex. I won't, you know, I can't begin to reconstitute her words. But that's the effect of it. And I feel that that which is actually does cut very deep is a source for this both envision also, I think that women who are more marginal have had as marginal groups traditionally have more freedom to exercise both brain hemispheres, which you know, that both men and women possess. So that really men have a running chance at this if they can marginalize themselves a little more maybe or something like that. That is that the um, the left brain and right brain may be sources for this both in negotiation. And I'm always as total footnote, mystified by the fact that I'm intrigued by the fact that the connecting link between the hemispheres has never been analyzed for its function by scientists. They don't know what it does. Another source and this is what I mean by overdetermined. For the both envision is the fact is, is the fact that women are both inside and outside the social order.

Unknown Speaker  28:34
There's a very famous passage by Wolf in which she talks about walking down Whitehall, which is, you know, we're British powers. And she says that she moves from being inside and affirming the social order of really of her class and of her of her social position to suddenly shifting and being outside that social order. Well, that's right there and oscillation which she perpetually has up till the time really of three guineas when she declares for being outside on by kind of almost a sort of polemic forcefulness. So I feel that, that both envision is a response to the non hegemonic status of the group. That's the outside part but to the hegemonic status of the group woman. That's the inside part and that's what I mean by ambiguously non hegemonic, many of us by our class position are not non hegemonic, we are hegemonic. I'll, if I ever get you out to what I mean, let me give you an example of this. It's really very striking. If anybody knows less than story dialogue. Does anybody know? It's a really neat, very short story in a minute to win. And what it's about is a man who is represented by a tower and a woman who's represented by a leaf. And the man kind of, if you listen to him, just has all these traits of maleness We will talk about, and the woman has all these traits. Well, I should say, masculine and feminine. And what happens is that these two traits or these sets of traits are played off against each other. Be holism, sickness, reason, rigidity, a fear of the window, a kind of absolutist mentality, madness, that's the man. And then on the other side, we get a sense of possibility of warmth, of sensuality of joy, a sense of wanting openness. And that's the feminine and what the woman is saying. And that story is that she reconciles both. And she has a kind of new vision based on both. What she asserts in that story is that the men also has both but she never, she never proves it. And it's a very interesting assertion, unless it's part to say, the men had the power through her to see her as she had the power through him to see him and comprehend Him. But it's not true from this. The story tells a truer tale than Lessing does.

Unknown Speaker  31:07
Okay, I want to just mention, I think I'm gonna go a little faster I want to mention, maybe two or three other features. One is that the art object is non non hierarchic, not conventionally ordered. This is really important in a lot of ways. It's anti climactic, or multi climactic. And I linked that dreamer to something that Francis Jefferson who's sitting right here, about, about multi climactic being multi orgasmic and that quality was in women can be valorized within the form Orlando Wolf says in Orlando that it's funny how when you write about woman, everything is out of place combinations and preparations don't work. The accent never falls where it does with a man. Did TIG writes Liguria, with an unstressed series? pay our taxes, no punctuation? No, no, I'm setting up things apart. Rather. If things are named, all are listed, a fruit is named many fruits are listed so that there's no symbolism, not one fruit standing for many, but on all fruits, but many standing for many. And of course, there's a kind of radical democratization with a stress and an equalization where the stress can fall equally on all things and it has a political implication. Sheila debrett Ville I think it's really an in crusaded in, in something that Dina Metzger wrote in heresies, talks about quilts, you know, of course, that they are fragments organized with no hierarchy as an even display over the surface of with no one climactic moment but visually organized to the different centers have come to come into light. And she traces that incidentally, to female women's relation to time which is interruptible. And the work it can get done when it when it can. You might also say that the non hierarchic anticlimactic form as well as being related to orgasm or interoperability might be over determined by a tendency that women have towards like tau T's that is to undercutting pompousness to always downplaying or kind of turning away with a laugh. Um, so that the series instead of climaxing, the series becomes under stressed but because of that. It also may be related to the quarrel that many feminists are having as to women being the site of many contradictions without being able to establish what takes precedence whether that sex or class, or the experience of being gendered. And those things sort of constitute a center which is woman. To simply two more one is that the work is holistic that it is inclusive and discontinuous at the same time. That it's encyclopedic and reflexive, all those words that have come in from it. Essentially what I described that I always end up describing the golden notebook. Trying to get everything in great tonal shifts polemical essays to lyric, a tremendous self questioning of the form, incorporating all sorts of disparate experiences of life like sexual experiences in politics and raising children and dreams, and talk. It's an inclusive world that attempts to be holistic, that is life without being whole. That is art. In other words, what it tries to do is it it builds its own, um, contradictions within it. It often builds fragments and it is interested in the slight Enos or the the point at which one doesn't really know which links it of course to both and vision. This is LinkedIn to art objects that often don't seek the status of separate art objects and to art objects which women do right sometimes to good effect and sometimes to bed, which don't want any aesthetic distance. The holistic inclusive form for me is also linked to something which I call the transpersonal protagonist, which many voices speak. I'm Susan Griffin does that for example. And that may be a difference between that in the modern, I'll just leave that to the side. Now, a final thing that I wanted to mention is that, for me, the artwork that women do right now is claiming a social function. It's emotional and ethical. The art begins with its ethics. It seeks a moral change, it seeks to establish a moral change in its reader. And also in its writer, it puts a process of human growth at the center

Unknown Speaker  36:10
of the artwork. This is true, this is what I found about the embedded artwork like Tulio since Tommy riddle, in which the, the contado, or strips them and which is sung by Eva in that work puts I'm trying to give an account of the moral questions of the era of the 20th century. And by virtue of those questions is transformed the husband, who has been an unwilling listener and blocked in his understanding of the enormity of of the 20th century. I want to just say now that it's clear that this is also could be on modernism. Okay, or post modernism, maybe just stop, I'm simply going to stop. Okay, because otherwise I could do it. I knew this was gonna happen with this keep on talking. And I think that in stopping, I wanted to stop and and we can talk to each other first with our names, and then with anything that this discourses evoke. Yeah. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  37:27
allow this question. You don't want it but I'm still carrying on the discussion that we had. Right? Often. It seems to me that what you have said is immense today. And then tracing new to me and illuminating. And it's probably to a woman's concern, a feminist interest to take the time to explore it. But if we are to ask you, is it your friends see that that's those seeing things distinguish women as against main men, writers of a certain class a certain position, a certain innovation? Will you not have to use an activity the word scientist demo today? Would you not have to use certain objective methods? Do you listen? Still around by the morning discussion? Do you listen to your feeling is it just feels right? No,

Unknown Speaker  38:45
I really don't. Why don't we Why don't we as well, no, not present it? Why don't we discuss it, but why we discuss it after introducing ourselves? Can we just put it on ice for half a sec? Because I'd like to, I think it would be good to introduce ourselves first. Okay, I just

Unknown Speaker  39:07
I'm Roberta burn Stan. I teach art history at Barnard. And I'm teaching a couple of women's studies. One on contemporary art by women, and another a survey of women.

Unknown Speaker  39:20
My name is Sue libo. I was a student here.

Unknown Speaker  39:24
One of the things that I'm really concerned about in this discussion, I feel as if we've really been intellectualizing a whole lot. What I was kind of hoping to hear here was a discussion maybe a little more about how art, both literature, visual art, all art forms, can directly relate to women's experience. And when you mentioned Judy, Chicago, my eyes lit up. Judy, Chicago, the kinds of things that are going on in the women's building in California, a real direct relation to women's experiencing women's sexuality, and I'd like to hear how that was. lies to the female aesthetic natality so the more editor publishing writer you gotta be assertive potential calls in his home county Roberts, also served. And I would just add to that, I mean, you're not intellectualized instead of other artists who are five minutes women something very different. Very strange and mysterious. And not to sign ties or objectified or even share with one another.

Unknown Speaker  41:00
I've got to say in defensiveness, that that's, that's why what I want to do, and I think perhaps, maybe you didn't hear my first statement. My name is Ruth, law students can read Jeff Gilligan,

Unknown Speaker  41:21
Lola Gilman. I'm an art historian, I work through the Women's Caucus and CO editor of the book on women's studies in art. And I'm also very interested in the idea of a female aesthetic in art, as well as women working in art history. And sharing particularly interested in

Unknown Speaker  41:53
writing poetry, and what different kinds of writing kinds of different kinds of expressions and I also think that relating to the other discussion that we're having the problem and defining what science is, and I think that that's something maybe you could get out of the way that

Unknown Speaker  42:12
actually, I think it's constitutive I don't think it can be just gotten out of the way but that will

Unknown Speaker  42:23
narrow tomorrow excuse sociologists doesn't belong here

Unknown Speaker  42:27
in the first place. German and completed

Unknown Speaker  42:50
Angela's I teach comparative literature at Smith College and everything everyone wants to talk about interesting to say the critics can't talk to writers, historians and sociologists don't have some sort of handle or wants to live on the whole thing announcing his his opposition.

Unknown Speaker  43:09
Really, Jane Jacobs,

Unknown Speaker  43:10
Italian who that was very interesting to what you're talking about. Amanda pal, I write. I'm currently training as a health worker, and all at the same time working in the Writing Center Spanish.

Unknown Speaker  43:32
And I don't think we know what R is or what science right Carolyn, I'm writing a novel and I get every time I come to hear you I come to find out what I'm doing with you that give you private consultation Joanne and I'm very much interested in.

Unknown Speaker  44:13
People I'm Julie musicologist. And I'm interested in

Unknown Speaker  44:23
music. And there are parallels between literature and music. My name is Jennifer. As part of the press for women, artists, news and writer and performing artists and interested in exploring differences of approach not necessarily between male and female or traditional, contemporary but rather the artists experience different places. Can you tell us on

Unknown Speaker  45:05
record? I'm interested in and as you said, there are a lot of orphans. And I'm writing to some of the things that you say, but we were trying to apply to them at some jobs. Yeah. Good. That's good. I'm Francis

Unknown Speaker  45:34
Collins and I live in San Francisco

Unknown Speaker  45:38
conference. And I just want to say one thing, when I came, I was very uneasy because of the male language. And today, I feel very proud of my significant intelligent because I'm single, which means that understood the language that we use. And I think that's, it shows that I've got the whole idea that the lunch we're using those words, description scores, those are all male words, and we're using today. And I've accepted that. And yeah, and that's, I think that's wrong to feel now intelligent, I feel great, because I can follow you. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  46:17
I'm your shore. And I'm a painter, and I was originally involved with your program, to having found that rather difficult, simplistic, I've tried to find a way of being sensed artist and not within a party.

Unknown Speaker  46:38
I teach comparative literature at Brown University.

Unknown Speaker  46:43
My name is Anne Friedrich, and I teach in the cinema studies department at NYU. And I guess that I'm interested in formal cinematic strategies. That's why That's awesome. The similarities

Unknown Speaker  47:05
between cinematic texts

Unknown Speaker  47:12
I'm always, I feel like I'm in all corners of the room. It was on the toilet. And if there are such labels, I'm a poet and a critic and a scholar. And I never felt. I mean, I always felt contradictions in my life, until I became feminists. I think there's an enormous difference between female art and that's something that I think a lot of things that have come up, and I've really someone that we need to make. Feminist decision I'm wearing is going to send the beginning of a nightmare.

Unknown Speaker  48:01
I'm Rachel blood. And without needing to update us, I am a poet, scholar. And actually, yeah, I know. And I really feel very strongly about the things that were originally said feeling that there was this was intellectualizing because, but I don't feel that that's necessarily a bad thing. I think that there's there are phases that we we phase in and phase out of what we need. And we needed to have a definition that could possibly be very attacked. And now we need to talk. I think perhaps we should start with what you're asked

Unknown Speaker  48:42
about science for that plastic cord in a way. The question is, I'm not a scientist, but I've been told that science and practice have changed quite a bit or one's concept of science as an

Unknown Speaker  48:53
objective,

Unknown Speaker  48:54
non imagined. Mass token. Fielding practice is not true.

Unknown Speaker  49:05
Is there anybody who wants to talk to that? Because I possibly could a little bit. It seems to me that science also works with paradigms that are socially produced. That's cute. Okay, on the Structure of Scientific Revolutions, and that feminism may be maybe a new kind of paradigm of knowing an epistemological paradigm. Yeah. Do you want to feel I

Unknown Speaker  49:32
think, maybe sort of you could have told them he thinks about this as notions of science and knowledge and ideology is what sort of very important topic

Unknown Speaker  49:45
Yeah, yeah, I think you better United you know.

Unknown Speaker  49:53
And, well, I mean, I think what I don't know if it's useful Maybe it has been useful in talking about linking. The science did not mine else's national history babies and experiments and things like that. It's not it's a notion of a knowledge that is empirically observable. And elsewhere an optional for difference between scientific knowledge and ideological knowledge is that ideology gives them away from reality. And then if you talk about the difference in science and literary production, my concern, and it means that those reproduction, it alludes to reality. And I think that's important.

Unknown Speaker  50:43
On the thing that Kuhn does is that he is essentially saying that there are there is no empirical data without a prior existing paradigm, or structure, in which facts can be perceived that is, that does not exist as fact, without a prior existing structure of value. And therefore knowledge really is, it's, that's where I had most difficulty mirror when I heard you talk earlier. For me, knowledge is a structure of value, and it's a value free, talking about value free knowledge is is one is, is one pole, of a kind of process. We're where you somehow, for strategic reasons, decide to turn your back for good for good strategic reasons are poor ones, but for valuable ones, you decide to turn your back on the fact that knowledge is immersed in its own value systems. And I think what's happening, at least to me, and in my own writing, I'm speaking as somebody who's been writing essays, I was kidding Lee, because he gave him the copy of the master view, where I have an essay just come out. And I said, you know, I have to do is hold this up and say, just get this up, it's all here, you know, okay, what I'm doing is, yeah, get the answers without, you know, you gotta find the journalists. What I'm trying to say, or trying to do when I write essays, as opposed to say, critical scholarly can your writing is to insert myself as, as the subject of knowing within what I'm trying to know. And this is a process, it's not valorizing what I feel is a kind of, you know, hoho, deep inside, beyond what I've been taught to feel, okay. I mean, it's not saying that what I feel is somehow better, or whatever that, you know, if I can separate out what I feel is better than a, you know, a structure of knowing, I'm saying that I possess both inside of me, my, the message of my body, which is another thing that the French route throwing around, which I don't really, like the message of my body has already been tainted, by, by the society by sexual sexual norms that I've learned, it's already inscribed, okay. So, if I get to the message of my body, I learned values, I don't learn something pure and you know, you know out of the historical matrix okay. So, what I feel about, discourse is really solved by a form that I call the essay originally, I mean, not to make a bad joke, which is, which is putting myself as a as known subject, among the things that are possible to be known and try to constitute that as a language. That is switching interruptions are very literary language, a very personal language, a lyric language, a polemic language, a critical language, all of those things, fixing together analysis and impression in a poetic with with a poetic structure. That's like a form for me, that's a form, it's a way of speaking, I would not speak that way. If I were doing scientific study, I would pretend I wouldn't have this fiction that I had a viable paradigm of knowing Qt in terms and that I could go out and find data. Do you see what I mean? It's just two different ways of knowing.

Unknown Speaker  54:10
I just wanted to make it out loud. Mira, I think you're using the word sloppily, I think you're asking that method. I mean, what I hear is the question of whether it's shareable whether it's what is found can be shared with other people. In other words, I as using a feminist method, what you seem to be worrying that is by using what you consider a feminist method and you claim to be totally subjective, find something, can it be shared with other people so they can say yes, I see that and I have an example. I think, I think you mean method. I mean, science is used as a fictional idea of a method that can be tested shared with other people. I have an example. I think a feminist method is also a method The values it's about what the questions are that you asked and what you think is important. I just thought of one. Ernest Jones, in his study of Hamlet does not notice. The curfew, the endothelial don't speak to each other. I as a feminist reading Hamlet, as as one of my very first question, why is there no interaction between somebody I'm working? Why is there no X interaction between these two women? What does it mean for the shape of the play? What would happen if there were what is accomplished by that distance between them? And that seems to me to be shareable information, in that sense, a method scientific? So I call I don't think that you mean, measurable sign. What do you mean, shareable? Because that, I could then show that to you. So do you see this? And what do you make of it? And why is it arranged that way? And what does it mean? How does it affect you? The thing is, like,

Unknown Speaker  55:55
I get it, it's like a religious idea. I think that you're against the religious use of a female aesthetic, which, in other words, in other words, we have a disability. Yeah. Like, I'm more like, I feel more deeply than you do. untestable. And therefore, my knowledge is better than yours. You know, the saying that which is, which is implicit to some degree in certain kinds of arguments.

Unknown Speaker  56:20
I'm also thinking that there is certainly a place for an essay, and there is a place for a poem. Yeah, it does not pretend to be anything more than it is an exaggeration of experience. But now, you've said something else you have said and analyze certain themes of female rating rose that presupposes that there's something distinctive you have made a link, I cannot trust you on the basis of an assertion, right, you know, I got your gut somehow to proceed with some objective method to persuade me that you have not selected one or two or three, right in your enthusiasm that your generalization holds.

Unknown Speaker  57:12
Okay, though, one way of doing that would be to link the forms to female experiences I was trying to do in terms of say, a bisexual oscillation, giving rise to either or to ensure a lack of either a discourse for women, but I think what you mean is testing it against male writing, right? I mean, not enough. Me, okay, then, then, can we do that? Why?

Unknown Speaker  57:41
Because every assumption, that the reason this assignation among the female writers, for all I know, there is a lot that isn't Tolstoy, and this. So, if that is the case, then your whole notion of a female aesthetic is nothing.

Unknown Speaker  58:02
Can I can I talk about or know that some of the people who practice and encounter

Unknown Speaker  58:08
a woman writing I would be more interested in the conversation focusing on female aesthetic rather than trying to argue whether or not men some men, you were there.

Unknown Speaker  58:20
But I think it's an important problem. And I would like to at least give mirrors up you know, I'm, you're with a construct of an answer, which I think I could try to do this do you wanna, I

Unknown Speaker  58:30
want to say something that is, in one of these Times magazine on running, written in science, has several discussions with distortions of the other parent, solid scientific truth, in ways that the science of so called scientific experiments have been set up by men, for example, in the study of primate behavior, and so on, totally unreliable. Because the conditions, the ways in which this these experiments on which all the grants and all the money for research and so forth in the country per years has been based, were set on the assumptions of memory going downward, which they never which they never been. And so I think science itself, you know, has

Unknown Speaker  59:15
as unreliable penetration as any of these other ways of looking at what we've been talking

Unknown Speaker  59:21
about. I would like to withdraw the question, because the reason they are not interested in

Unknown Speaker  59:26
you know, I'd like to actually respond to the question. Okay. If I, if I just might, because it, I am interested in the question, but I don't know whether my answer would constitute a sufficient answer. I'll just tell you my findings. I think it is, in fact, one of the most problematic questions of the, say, the assertion of a female aesthetic, okay, and I'm trying to cover it by two statements within the definition, one is a tautology. And it's a pure tautology that these strategies are invented by members of the group who Women okay. And the second is by calling women non hegemonic. See, the thing is that these traits are not exclusively female. But they, one can explain these traits as properties of a group, which has to write itself out, has been written out of culture as it's constituted that is to say, a non hegemonic group, I'm using the term hegemony in this sense of Raymond Williams, in Marxism and literature, okay? That a hegemony is the process of, of a dominant culture dominance, a set of meanings a central dominant set of meanings and values which are not abstract which are organized and lips I'm quoting wounds, but a hegemony is not just a thing like a nine ton brick that lands on you and squashes you, okay? hegemony is a process with a with its own internal structure, and you as a sort of, that which it you are that through whom hegemony is lived. And the hegemonic values continuously recreate and modify themselves or are continuously limited, altered and challenged by various elements of social practice. Various elements of social practice include the group woman, it also includes other groups excluded from this sort of I call with a centrist Okay, that is hegemonic Williams, Williams isolates two different relations to hegemony aside from itself, one is, one is emergent, and the other is residual, I would say that I feel that the female aesthetic is a is a an emergent social practice, along with other emergent social practices based on groups like blacks, and high modernists, that is any group which feels that it has to have a critique of work of this of society, as it is presently constituted. And what that means for high modernist is a critique of bourgeois capitalism, just to coin a phrase. And what that modernists critique does, alas, is make it from a residual, not from an emergent position that is grossly from a right wing and not from a left wing position. That's why modernism, the modernists are also fragmented. You know, juxtapose you know a lot of these things, I don't want to go through the list, but because they're also making a critique of hegemony, insofar as women are making a critique of hegemony, and insofar as blacks or gays or other excluded social areas, they are they may, self consciously I think, to some degree, I think women reinvent this aesthetic. That is it is not so much a female aesthetic. Although I feel that it's necessary to claim it as such for us. But to answer mirrors straight, it is not so much a female aesthetic, as it is the aesthetic of a non hegemonic group. And any non hegemonic group could probably and possibly will reinvent this set of strategies, or some combination of them, okay. And however, women may very well have invented women and possibly blacks are a peculiar combination of traits, some which are associated with high modernism, and some which are associated with post modernism. And I'm just, I'll just, you know, the reason that that's so is associated right back to women's cultural position, so that it is in that sense of female aesthetic by which I hope I'm making sense. I don't know whether that modernism, modernism, aside from a lot of its aesthetic traits, has a political function behind modernists like lb or Eliot.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:17
Yeats wanted to transform culture, simple, just the way we do. They want to transform culture, however, is kind of dictators, cultural dictators, imposing you know, religious forms, and even you know, crazy things like about how they plow in China and how we should do that noodley like pound when he was off his luck. And but modernism generally is a sort of a call for a new and total culture, those are pounds were exactly what we want as feminists. So we combined the political stance of high modernism, but from a left perspective, not from a residual nostalgic for the way they plow. That's why I'm really against going back to the body and, and how we have deepened ancient knowledge and so I'm not sure My perspective but from an emergent perspective, making a new culture which includes we combine the political stance of high modernism with the phenomenological stance of post modernism, which is really very much what these poetics are valorizing the ordinary the here and now in interplay with no sort of TELUS a kind of sense of impermanence, as opposed to archetypal knowledge of modernism is interested in a horizontal universal interruption, juxtaposition intercuts is so the both end universe all of this is the postmodern picture. And I think that what is what is, in fact, unique to women and possibly blacks because of their political stance is that they that we make a unique combination. Our strategy is unique, because it's both political and phenomenological. And that I feel we do have something unique, which may neither be permanent, nor entirely exclusive to us permanent in a historical sense. Nor exclusive, because we might, you know, we might share it, you're sharing it with other groups, okay, now, I'm going to rest my case.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:13
Whatever your minorities are absorbed into the culture, you're saying that is the culture we're creating a woman kids are creating temporary.

Unknown Speaker  1:06:23
There's no such difference between

Unknown Speaker  1:06:24
it's not necessarily permanent. So you're answering the question that would start with me down half. A question was,

Unknown Speaker  1:06:35
it was important. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  1:06:37
you mean the question that was asked for the woman in that magenta. issue? That was you? Shoot, what do you want to discuss it more?

Unknown Speaker  1:06:56
or less, all of you said about women's fiction and that sort of stuff on 60s Now, with an old way, my mother was a picture witness. And all these things that have now been brought everywhere by everybody yet, it seems to me that my problem with that is that it is what you call mutuality, I call non consensual realism, that what you're asked to do in all those who are in all in which is to make across country, your own lot.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:27
It's telling you a story, it's given a wagon finger at you and

Unknown Speaker  1:07:31
telling you to make a connection to your own life to change the things we would love to realize is fictional. So it just was is what we got to make the connection yet. It seems to me it's a dangerous literature, just like any other, like nice, like socialist realism doesn't look nice in the 20s and stuff, just like black culture did in the 60s. And I don't know where that's located ruptured that you think can

Unknown Speaker  1:07:54
I answer that? I think that unfortunately, unfortunately, when you're gonna have to accept that there's a strong strain of the didactic in women's writing. Okay, you do you like it, but you didn't sound like you'd like to see because I think

Unknown Speaker  1:08:12
I'm just saying that it's not, you're suggesting that it's something unique in some

Unknown Speaker  1:08:16
or No, no, no, I think the didactic is clear that once you have a political stand, all of the high modernists you're going to end up with a lot of didactic works. I feel that in women's writing in fact, and you can see it absolutely in three guineas. There's a tension I mean, in Romans reading right now, at this moment, there's a tension between essay and sermon. Okay, between between what I'm describing as SM, you know, and what I want it sort of right, which I might feel myself on one side of a sermon and you see that really well in three guineas. And you see it also in Joanna Russ who solves that problem, it's been a man let me just in three guineas you have the you have the both end universe you have the masculine discourse, changing into female discourse, the discourse of trial and of statement, which becomes Antigone. Okay, that is, and you have this kind of chatty, nonchalant, wonderfully feminine kind of delicious wolfy and stuff, which then becomes female, because it's saying absolutely uncompromising things in this chatty, wonderful way. In other words, you've got the masculine and the feminine, both genders to being the female. Okay, so you've got the both and university uniting, and then what you've got, and then I think that's terrific. And then you've got the sermon. You said, I mean, you've got the essay, then you've got the sermon about how we're outsiders and we should join this sort of this half society, which deconstruct and reconstruct itself. And that is there and Russ does it by Well, I will talk about that. Anyway, the female men is both essay and sermon at the same time, and that's really the strategies link. Well, what about the I mean, you mentioned a little Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:09:58
I mean, that seems to me real problem. I mean, I've got no absolutely not no one. Yes. That was a problem.

Unknown Speaker  1:10:09
Why is it a problem?

Unknown Speaker  1:10:11
I mean, what What were they saying that was the

Unknown Speaker  1:10:13
lady with this phone here can tell you? I don't know if that's true. Why wasn't a fellas? Yeah. Well, I think I think that someone said it was a smell because I felt that she was trying to break barriers between

Unknown Speaker  1:10:38
great barriers between

Unknown Speaker  1:10:41
males. And for that I didn't think it was a feminist feminist propaganda incessant

Unknown Speaker  1:10:55
propaganda because they only feminist novel feminist propaganda.

Unknown Speaker  1:10:58
I think we're getting a term wish, right here and you weren't

Unknown Speaker  1:11:03
getting a prescription.

Unknown Speaker  1:11:05
shiver. worries me. And it is feminist. It's not or it's not feminist, or

Unknown Speaker  1:11:13
the very revolutionary kids I was trying to drink. What is male and female? Whereas it seems to me the longer timbers are spending, trying to find what is female?

Unknown Speaker  1:11:27
Especially what are the Lord said today, bringing us back to women's being sort of a wonderful, passionate preacher. And you know, that's fine. It makes me feel good, but I don't think that's true. I think that I think that one of the things that beyond just

Unknown Speaker  1:11:43
creating sort of feminists,

Unknown Speaker  1:11:46
I think we do have too much because I would call that witnessing is doing creating the female in the sense that I just use that term out of the masculine and the feminine as I'm using those terms. Um, you know, like with your guineas, and I,

Unknown Speaker  1:12:00
I really see what you're saying the answer that she has at the end is the female, the female answers the answer.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:07
I don't think that there is an answer. At the end of the day of the Golden notebook. I think that the whole book itself as a total text, constitutes a statement, which is not an answer, which is why the ending is so weird. And everybody wants to know, gee, what, you know, what, what are they doing at the end, it doesn't see the ending is unstressed to throw the whole weight of analogy, you know, of the reader, the readers picture back onto the whole text is an experience. And Jones, did you want to say something injures?

Unknown Speaker  1:12:36
I mean, it we're saying we're gonna go back to some enemies that are characteristic of these are bad.

Unknown Speaker  1:12:44
Maybe some of them in writing, actually, you know, writing novels or placement. Do you think it's bad to tell people what to do straight hours? I would like to hear something from I don't know, and Louise marier. Mirror. About the the thing you

Unknown Speaker  1:13:12
said the least about the distinction between being, I think you said female and feminine or feminine and feminine. Oh, yeah. Or what you were saying about me not being personnel who writes or paints.

Unknown Speaker  1:13:26
I would be very interested in hearing from you on these

Unknown Speaker  1:13:29
issues. I would love to bring up. But I kind of wanted to relate that to what Mira said a long time ago about what scientists I think that you are very correct. This ties in with what you're asking for. Definitely. I think you really correct her in sensing that there is a real straying away in whatever we might term as feminist aesthetic and art away from science. And I think part of what I was hearing in what you were saying, is the need to compare to a norm. And the norm that we've had for so many years being the norm of male writing male expression, male art. And I think that as a feminist, part of what we're doing now in getting feminist writing and RT, et cetera, is not using that as a norm and starting from a new perspective, and the kinds of things that I'm talking about it specifically, are in our like, My questions are, what is women's music? What makes women's art? What makes women's drama I have seen a lot of new things in feminist theater, for instance, I know people are familiar with sirens, a feminist play, which is based on a lot of patchwork, as you mentioned before, music that's based on patchwork and art that's based on patchwork and a lot of the kinds of things that were listed before non hierarchical perspective, a coming back to the same theme, ability to interrupt things So, I would I would really love to come in and the discussion is more of a list of where that feminist aesthetic is coming from and how that is different from a female aesthetic.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:14
The reason I'm interested in splitting that hair is that I'm much more interested in energy. I said want to address the women said they were artists, and they wanted to talk about art. I mean, from the pardoning as an artist. The reason I was making that is, feminism is a visionary thing. And it has phenomenal energy for making art. And that interests me a lot more than looking backwards and trying to answer the question of either what is female art? Or what is a female language? I mean, I don't understand what we're going to find out if we answer those questions, or unless I'm just personally less interested in finding that athletes you can I am, it's where you know, where you already have no money, but I'm explaining the difference between female and feminist, okay. Anything a woman does is something the female does.

Unknown Speaker  1:16:09
What many men do

Unknown Speaker  1:16:11
whatever, but I think feminism is a vision that has a creative energy that opens up possibilities that involve consciousness and choice, and that that's interesting and stimulating and that it leads somewhere as opposed to

Unknown Speaker  1:16:25
the joy, you want to also have a definition. You know, as Rachel's definition does, that leaves the way open for women who don't know their feminist to find out well, that creating where you find it out. I mean, I don't think we find out in the process of working. No, no, but I think that what you're saying is, women have always had a male norm that they have to size off to, I think what you're saying is, whatever wound does is female, I would say criticize her by going one more further saying that the danger of a female setting as written down as theorized is that establishes yet and the problem with that is that I spent my whole life trying to get out of the male dorm. And now I'm gonna have to worry about, however that

Unknown Speaker  1:17:08
said, when I first introduced myself, and I sense that in the discussion at the gold notebook, I was involved, that there was a question whether it was feminist or not novel. Where that means is, one thing can be feminists is good. And somebody else would be whatever I'm

Unknown Speaker  1:17:26
addressing the problem with the difference between the creative back and an ideology. And for the creating that and critical act and an ideology, a form of criticism, I think that they are not the same. And that is something that we really have to keep very clear, we're circling around the same value, and perhaps endorsing each other's perspectives that what we're doing and the two instances are quite

Unknown Speaker  1:17:50
different. I was I'm just gonna say the opposite, that what I really liked about what you said was that, it seems to me finally to bring together critics and artists who say, we cannot take this stand your what is female, or art or whatever, and say we are an art whether we're an artist producing youth musicians, no matter what we are, you know, and I think they're just the opposite. That is a place where it brings us together so that we can set up a norm. And it's the setting up of the norm, that most objects

Unknown Speaker  1:18:28
with Kate, Francis, and Carol, and then Louise, I'm really

Unknown Speaker  1:18:35
quite struck by that I completely disagree with you about Senator standing up at the norm. It seems to me that unless you set up the norm, you don't have anything to move away from, and that part of the kind of arbitration talked about it and begin to move away from the such amount of experience that we had. I was thinking that perhaps the difference between the high modernist and feminist art I think of a phrase by Virginia, well, Virginia Woolf says our contemporary depressed as the current state has ceased to believe maybe that they don't have a common value system, We can't, it's difficult for us to write, because we don't know how other people are going to interpret our words. There's no common set of values and forming those words, and therefore it's very difficult, right? And that when women begin to write because of their distant relationship to language that it doesn't quite fit with their parents. Exactly. I don't know. I mean, I'm speaking as somebody who writes myself, I say, Will anybody understand what I'm saying? Does what you have to say is do these words make any sense to another person? And I think that women as excluded people probably worry about a lot more than pagedaily And do I think that they may have said cycle this nobody's paying enough attention to me or whatever I want to just to to deconstruct the culture for some other reason, but not because not for the same reason. So then you way to try and to get the problem Does anybody understand? What I'm saying is that you have to begin to imagine some other in the way that you're talking about. Or somebody creating, you're interested here, you've imagined it, and you're trying to create it, because then then you'll you'll, you'll imagine somebody for whom words be the same as you did with the talk. Yeah, I get it that grows into

Unknown Speaker  1:20:24
female aesthetic, which then probably at some point,

Unknown Speaker  1:20:28
that has to be broken down.

Unknown Speaker  1:20:30
It's a process, it's a practice, I'm not in the business of setting up norms. I think I just, you know, I'm gonna just kind of extract myself, you're talking about me, you've got, you've got to pretend like that there's a person over there talking against that person. There's no way. The thing for me about the the social function of the art different between the women writers and high modernists, I think is absolutely crucial. That is, what's interesting is that you could come out with the same forms where the social function differs. And that's like, absolutely, you know, it's like, that means that there's a political function for women's speaking, which is different from the political function of high modernist speaking. Okay. And that's why one is, you know, one is a right wing and the other is a left wing, if you will, do you think can I just say one more thing, which is that when LB and Elliot and Williams create the fragmented power tactic, modern long poem, which is built in a certain way, struggled form, which is Metzger is word for women writing, they're doing it through the eye, and I mean, the eye, the ego. When Susan Griffin writes women in nature, she is attempting to write it through we do a transpersonal protagonist, and that is also a difference. Now, I mean, it may be, it may be a mythic

Unknown Speaker  1:21:45
difference, but a huge difference in mood, you're talking about an apocalyptic literature that bemoans the decline of the whole world, as opposed to what seems to me berming literature that says,

Unknown Speaker  1:21:56
No, but the point is that enhanced, Qantas doesn't, is not just apocalyptic, he really wants a new culture, it happens to be a fascist culture. There, no, it's not not in the Cantor's it isn't waste money. Okay, well, I'd take that, yeah, Francis wanted to talk, I really want to just, I think the function of criticism, in this situation, can be one of encouragement permission from women, because what we have, historically is, its criticism, dominated, dictated by male experience, and I have to disagree with you and male bodies, I think in part of their experience. And, and, and where women have written or painted, what is comprehensible or familiar, are acceptable to male experience, it has been considered, quote, art, and where women have created art that comes out of female experience. And it's not recognizable to the dominant culture, and it's simply not called Art. And so, one of the functions of exploring the, you know, the nature of what may be the female aesthetic as, as antecedent to the feminist aesthetic, or sometimes the same thing is to is to say, to each other, you know, screw them, you know, that is, this is art, and this is what females do. And you know, this, for example, a very much less than aesthetic distance, which might come out of female experience of relationship and so on. And so I don't I think that this does not say to a woman you must write according to a female I said it, it says, If you do, right, and according to some of these things we're discovering, you know, we have a, you know, we will fight for you, we valorize Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:46
Carol, I think my

Unknown Speaker  1:23:49
litmus test was, you know, could it be male feminist art didactic, and would that be good? And I feel like the hardest thing to do to create a work of art is to be absolutely honest. And actually, probably the only thing to do that makes it the largest to be honest. And insofar as any ideology is kind of a totalization, and therefore only partially true that we can individually or that is to say each individual sort of dissects it in a particularly idiosyncratic way. Feminism as an ideology can work to hide promote our own personal very idiosyncratic truth, we can leave as we're writing for the simple solution, and everybody by now knows what the feminine solutions are, I mean, in any sentence or in any story or poem, okay. So that as feminine part of what we have to do, it seems to me it all points to it is always to really and this is really kind of excruciating, because you have this horrible, new painful, super ego over you, you know, and really at every moment Okay, but But does that really mean? I really agree with that? Absolutely. Yeah. I just wanted to get

Unknown Speaker  1:25:10
started out with I think that we've covered the whole spectrum of scientific anxiety. First is,

Unknown Speaker  1:25:16
is this valid is the personal

Unknown Speaker  1:25:18
balance on a large scale? And the end product of that kind of scientific objectivity is setting oppressive norms. What is good for the individual is good for everyone. I mean, that's the two ends of it. That's both the ultimate outcome of destructive destructive the scientific attitude is assigned to the anxiety which every theorist will feel in forming theory, is this good enough to be good for everyone, or this is the norm, this is good for everyone. And I think the somewhere in between is where it's not a lot. You can't say what you said, is, is so minimal, that you're no longer honest with yourself, if you choose what were killed. I'll defend the super ego about your own individual. But you can also not set up normative oppressive standards from here.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:13
Don't know if this is quite a place to say this, but I first I wanted to underline what Rachel said that I think feminism, there's a kind of danger that we're gonna continue this stance with a process in practice. And, you know, once it's a process of text, and it can't be an efficient position. And one of the places I learned this was from Rachel's article that I guess just you had a view, which I think is absolutely a challenge to this kind of scientificity In a way, which is absolutely feminist scholarship. And I'm so thrilled that I read it because what Rachel doesn't that article is to challenge the idea that there is some sort of objectivity that exists independent of the subject matter only by stating that stating whether assumptions are in starting, which is kind of commonplace by really inserting herself as a concrete specific subject into this intellectual arguments that she's presenting. And this is way in which is so entertaining. This person was quite particular specific, personal person and the intellectual conclusions when she comes up. I think that's really where it's at. That's it. And in doing that, it seems to me

Unknown Speaker  1:27:26
No, because I mean, I have to say that I know from I know that Sarah is one of the people who read the article and allow it to be printed, which is like why I'm sitting here saying, oh, Sarah, I love you, let's just have like a love feast. Um, you know, between two people, I think we maybe we shouldn't generalize from it.

Unknown Speaker  1:27:44
But in terms of the transition from femaleness to feminism was to draw on something we know as women, which is the fact that we do exist more in relationship that it couldn't be harder for us, in fact, our feelings that our sort of