Unknown Speaker 00:04 Just because something actually explicitly procedures to those children the Unknown Speaker 00:18 findings of the solutions and also seeing on social media Unknown Speaker 00:45 I went overseas and I guess because wasn't the one thing that I was really very loving stuff. We're so proud of it my daughter Unknown Speaker 01:19 and I also used to have three desserts and stuff and it's easy when you're going to have a coffee was good, it was nice to have the freedom to join in, it comes Unknown Speaker 01:53 to price as well as controversy I feel good about Unknown Speaker 02:06 making your home tab up here now she's done a lot of she had about five workshops want to be so good in other rooms. And it really is it's a well made documentary in terms of the main choices. Most games are made. Unknown Speaker 02:54 to specifically address this women already find themselves it's not going to be our first one. And then describe what we decided Unknown Speaker 03:16 to do as far as it goes concerned, one of my interest in having this film shown is race because part of the process is to show all of us those choices Unknown Speaker 03:43 and hopefully provoke dialogue about some of the choices. Unknown Speaker 03:49 Now in terms of not judging, but just what suits you perhaps Unknown Speaker 03:57 because boy, is a who we are blessed to have as mothers and really most of Unknown Speaker 04:07 these concepts I was in college we were one of the families who could not follow through on some of the plays that we have because of Unknown Speaker 04:26 the Department of Social Services Unknown Speaker 04:37 all girls and they all came out tiles and shells and they're all going to be is going to be 14 Unknown Speaker 04:49 And she came to me and was a mother Unknown Speaker 04:58 she could go on Okay, Unknown Speaker 05:01 so first choice was to make some type of decision that in my mind, this would be biological, but we decided that we really wanted to know what they were blinders on. And then we have Maria, who spoke to Canada. And Unknown Speaker 05:27 she came to our house Unknown Speaker 05:29 last week. What is it a positive face that doesn't exist to six person, Unknown Speaker 05:38 although she was so powerful. So we can also talk to some of our suppliers. Unknown Speaker 05:47 We know a lot of lessons to learn about the challenges. Unknown Speaker 05:54 But we do not experience customers who are allowed to do anything else, and many different thoughts and very nature Unknown Speaker 06:10 as far as how they, Unknown Speaker 06:13 mother, two children under the Unknown Speaker 06:17 age of eight. Unknown Speaker 06:21 And so, so Unknown Speaker 06:27 So, so that's. Unknown Speaker 06:30 So the two points I wanted to introduce. All of us Unknown Speaker 06:37 were in front of some strong similarities between Unknown Speaker 06:42 mothers and major feasts that most of us raise with our mothers are essential. And a good mother is sort of Madonna Unknown Speaker 06:53 ish, or whatever, the kind Unknown Speaker 06:56 of stories that people talk to a mother Unknown Speaker 07:01 and let's be a certain way in which that was not acceptable. There was an early sensitive assignment. And I think it's important to look at how those two come together how they clash. And the stress that that puts on a couple is just evidence on and looking internally to define yourself sexually still working together but we don't want to get there so Unknown Speaker 07:32 as long as you navigate Unknown Speaker 07:38 away this will be up to you have you ever imagined I live in one of these it was with my previous brother. So we have decided that Unknown Speaker 08:14 it would be better and sold back at Largo Florida. So they are going to have to we're not going to rezone the book but that was one of the one of the new recipes for the life plan planning your child with a lover who then might wake up and thinking about the quality of life on a social worker on social service, we must discuss last few years for people who decided that it was very hard to take an appropriate action we have the three children who are presently going to be playing by now that wasn't going out there and let me tell you that because now you're probably coming into the session knowing who they are and they definitely do not want to read you know, they can be very effective. Because not only are they just gonna go I was appointed as the minister, so that at that time I just happen to be a household effectively with you guys. Everybody I'm wondering about the children, their friends because they were out Unknown Speaker 11:06 partying Unknown Speaker 11:08 and I didn't think so much knows. Unknown Speaker 11:13 They select who they have direct conversations with. Unknown Speaker 11:19 Right however, our rules and our policies, when it comes to the house, we want you to sit me down on the sofa in front of their friends, but he will do that for the next one, I would want a microphone in the house way. But I have to be willing to accept what In other words, we aren't going to look at my face for those of us that and practice works very well, they really have been minimal problems. And they tend to be a lot less than most people. I love to stay in our household. The issue that is causing trouble outside the house is racism. homophobia has given that and given reasonable importance of stopping. At the same time, there was one remark that they talked about, they addressed something very important in the rescue. So we'll see what happens. You know, they have friends who want to spend the night and TV anytime. They they have their first voice Unknown Speaker 12:53 and you seem to be Unknown Speaker 12:57 upset with me. Yeah, it was terrible timing. Unknown Speaker 13:10 So far, so far, it's worked better, right, we keep our wheels, you know, it was more dating time. It's I think that was that issue changes, just like any issue was changed. It's been ordered, and bring different people in different thoughts and different places. And neural development was a very good example. But so far, it has not been a big deal. And we are going to be doing so. And that's important. What's one of the things that we strongly believe is if you're going to have children after the show, and expect them to be Unknown Speaker 13:46 expected Unknown Speaker 13:47 to start with where they came from. You can show your partner so we are very out for ourselves need help? Unknown Speaker 13:57 And they do. And I think Unknown Speaker 14:00 although there are some situations where women can not be available, depending on the over allergy Cambridge is relatively low Unknown Speaker 14:12 kids we're schools children on there's a rescue that was Father's Unknown Speaker 14:17 Day as I know Maria came up to this model this is my experiences as well. You have the same kind of weapons as it turned out, she was right and so every once in a while no one someone else can talk to each other so that it's quite clear in any relative to the environment where you're surrounded by stone, and then that we were very strong man and mental ratio. themselves, and you're getting something from a store. Because one day is life on the shelves next day, I know that your mother, her mother was telling me about it, you know, so they can predict that by the end, don't give up, they will say that the former President Marcos had a wonderful time. So they get nervous about it, they don't want anybody call me. But at the same time, they do have different adults who are essential to the way I think getting into the sustainability space, as you know, something that I apply today or I don't even know I don't know if any of the writing so I know that the situation is that when I look at the years when she is very profitable. This is how we're not having to you know realize that you might lose your children around that relationship that's your ideology data adolescence. Unknown Speaker 17:53 was about lesbians and my son came into the room and asked me to read a book for him. So I began to read for him. And the word lesbian came up somewhere in a few paragraphs that I read and he said, What's a lesbian? And I told him a woman that loves women and make feel like with a woman as a companion, so he said, Oh, that's what you do. I say yes. And so that means you're lesbian. And I said, Yeah, he said Unknown Speaker 18:24 I come from a very conservative religious family. And while I thought I can prime that to that I was going to have a child. They were absolutely horrified. When I told them, I was pregnant. And once I sort of became clear on what guess what, whatever there was pushed, you know, and could save them. Three, three, and I'm planning this and planning this for 10 years. This is something I really want. This is something I am very prepared to be responsible for. Unknown Speaker 18:59 And I used to think I would have about 16 Kids, because I would always want to kiss 1000 chemo when I was 12 years old, but I also wanted children for that time, it was still considered a sickness and everything like that. No, I didn't think that lesbians would have children. I just thought there was a very lonely life that you would lead. Unknown Speaker 19:21 I was ambivalent about having children. And then I've been becoming lesbian. I didn't think it was possible to have children so that was even more okay. And then I met Margarita and everything she did friends Unknown Speaker 19:58 my name is John And Unknown Speaker 20:02 most lesbian mothers are women who had their children while married before coming out. Today, however, growing numbers of lesbians are thinking about and having children outside of an intimate relationship with a man. And six families in this film are facing many of the challenges which arise for lesbians choosing children. The Gay Liberation and reproductive rights movement are paving the way for lesbians and all women to decide if, when, and how they will be parents. Unknown Speaker 20:35 Oh, credit well kept pregnant the old fashioned way. I had a friend who very close for about 10 years, and we talked about it five years ago. And although I hadn't seen him for three years, I wrote to him, and he was excited about it. So we met and got together and did work the first time. But it worked the second time. Coming from where it came from, I just had so many friends who didn't know who their fathers were. And I don't know why they suffered a lot, or their fathers ran out on them. They suffered that a lot. And I thought about artificial insemination. And to me, that was too impersonal. I didn't know how well it will be able to deal with the fact that it came from the turkey paste. In case anybody asks, well, who's the father, I just whipped out two pictures and show them and the whole family normal the father is. So they also know that Lee and I are raising that child. And they're all fine, and was very Unknown Speaker 21:29 comforting knowing that she was going to be with somebody else. Other than me, we hadn't been separated, since we had gotten together. And I was going to be going down to see my folks in Pennsylvania for four days. And Tony was going to be coming up to stay in our environment for four days. And I didn't really like that effect too much. But I knew that the reason was, so that we could have a child. And for no other reasons. Unknown Speaker 22:04 Pretty early on, I made the decision that I wanted to be pregnant and give birth as opposed to adopting because I didn't think I had a chance of being able to adapt. What was happening at that time, and is still happening now is that there were many lesbian mothers who were having to fight custody battles in court, in order to be able to keep their children, their husband's ex husbands or fathers or their children were taking him to court for custody of the kids on and challenging their right to keep their kids on, on the basis of the fact that they were lost. So I decided that I would get thrown into insemination with an unknown donor. And I decided that I didn't want to go through the medical establishment because I didn't want to have to lie about being lesbian. What was important to us was that we got information about who this donor was why he was willing to do this. And a lot of background information, medical, family, Unknown Speaker 23:03 political. Unknown Speaker 23:06 So there are a number of choices available in deciding what kind of a sperm donor to use, or at least what method to use the most protection legally, that a person has in terms of not having the donor have any rights at all, is to use a licensed physician or a sperm bank. Because most states that have laws about artificial insemination provide that when the semen donor uses a licensed physician, he doesn't become the legal father of the child. Now there are some alternative ways to use a known donor and still provide more legal protection. One is to do a contract some kind of an agreement between the donor and the mother about what his rights and responsibilities will be. And what this achieves is that the parties are really clear with each other in really clear about what they're agreeing to and what they're both expecting. The other thing is it may be legally enforceable, we don't know because none of these contracts have yet been tested. Nobody's brought a lawsuit yet on one of the contracts to find out if the courts will uphold them. It's my opinion that judges understand contracts a lot better than they understand artificial insemination. So there's at least some chance if it's all written down, and people have signed it, that the judge will uphold the terms of the contract. The only problem with doing a contract and the reason some lawyers advise against it is it does provide evidence of the identity of the donor because within the contract, you have the name of both the donor and the recipient. Unknown Speaker 24:50 We talked a lot about it and pretty much we decided that we wanted to learn and start because I had some fears around it If If the child at this point it wasn't a Jordan yet, but if the child knew the biological mother into the biological father, than summer, I would just sort of be this third wheel. And I wasn't really sure how my relationship would come off as a parent to the child. My father was adopted as a child, and knows nothing of his biological family, we only know about his adoptive family, we don't even know what nationality we are. And in that respect, just to be sensitive to Jordan, at some point, I would like for him to if he wants to know that to be able to have access to that information, the one who helped us get noticed. And so she just has the information either in her head or he has it in a file. And at some point, if we were to connect with her and ask for the information we were able to get, we just have an answer at this point. We will be honest with him all along, he'll know that he was conceived through artificial insemination. And why we want it. And then he was chosen, and he was chosen. And it was a decision that we made. And we really learned and Unknown Speaker 26:13 a lot of women choose not to use doctors or clinics, because the kind of medical workup that's done on donors is often quite inadequate, in terms of what their medical history is, the records kept are not very good. And in addition, the women don't get treated very well. In fact, some women have been that have been refused, if they are single, or if they're known to be lesbian. Really doing artificial insemination is incredibly easy. And the hardest part about it is getting a donor. But once you've established when you're ovulating, your go between which is the person who picks up the sperm and brings it to you arranges with the man a specific time on a specific day. And that person provides the man with a clean jar, it doesn't have to be sterilized or anything, it just needs to be clean. The two kinds of jars we like to use are baby food jars, which are appropriate or marinated artichoke jars. And the reason that we like to use these kinds is because well this one in particular, is because it has a wide mouth. And it's easy to get the syringe into the jar, all you need to do when the it's literally this easy, all you do is after the man has injected it into the jar, the jar gets closed, you can do this in any number of ways, you can wrap it in a rag or whatever, I like to put it in the sock. So and that keeps it protected from light and it keeps it warm. And then particularly in wintertime, I make sure that the car is heated up. And I just put it right here. And I drive to the person's house. Take it out, put the syringe in and bring it up very very slowly and then you just inseminated. I want you to be very careful Unknown Speaker 28:30 wanted the father to be known and be intuitive enough to when the kid called him up and said, Are you my daddy? The man would be nice to the kid. I had many conversations with many men about it. They call him up and say would you have coffee with me? We go out to coffee and I'm you know, just dying. And I had this question. You know, I really want to have this kid. You know, and tell them what my bottom line was in this something you could do or would be interested in doing. And it was just a terribly embarrassing situations. And all of them were flattered. I think most of them wanted children, but assumed in a relationship with a woman and they just didn't get it didn't get why I was doing this. So I sort of realized well if I'm serious about wanting a dad would have to be a gay man because they wouldn't understand my name is me Dad daddy Jerry came to me and said, You know I'm interested in fathering I'm interested in 5050 Let me know 5050 had not been on my bottom line, I had been saying I was open to anything up to 5050. But I needed some time to think about this. And we needed to attend to get to know each other better. So lots of gay men, just like there are lots of gay women who really want children. And down the road, it should not be that hard for any of us to have children. I mean that it just should not be seen Unknown Speaker 30:43 wherever I can tell me the way you live the way it goes, like it was it was. Unknown Speaker 30:50 I have been a longtime relationship about 17 years. And we have both talked a lot about having children, but never had heard about a I didn't know what that was. We were pretty isolated. So I decided that I would happen. So then I met this guy, and he was a nifty Puerto Rican guy. Mary has beautiful kids, I design it. And that's a lie. So I want all the times that a lesson I want to illustrate everybody knows. So I went with him. And he said, Fine. Unknown Speaker 31:25 And I was supposed to Unknown Speaker 31:26 let him know. And when my daughter went away, to visit her family in the Midwest, and they weren't was ovulating. And I call him up and I said, Hey, listen. It's time. They said, Okay. And then he called me late. It was his part was very, very, very sick. So then I was ovulating. A bottle of wine, Nancy Wilson. I know die. So I decided to do Nancy Wilson in the one anyway. And then there was this guy, who had been really making pacts with me for a long time is that he was born. And he called me up on the phone. And he said, Hi, I said, Oh, what are you doing? Somebody came over today, this big pass, right? And that's how I got my work really well. Unknown Speaker 32:19 That's fine. Unknown Speaker 32:23 My goal was to enhance. And then reminder was filed by Mr. Kane with her own exchange, shall we call she's legal guardian to show us to babysit for me. But then one day, we went for a cup of coffee, and discovered that we had some things in common. And the next thing we knew they were my goat, Shelly, Cheryl and I, and eventually, Maria came to live with us. I was working as a social worker. And I got involved with this family. And Maria was one of the children. She had been removed from her home by the court system of social welfare system, and needed emergency placement. Unknown Speaker 33:07 So she came here, and she was here for a while. And then she was really Unknown Speaker 33:13 nice kid. We all liked her. And so we decided we would go from broken apply to keep her keeper. Unknown Speaker 33:21 No state, with the possible exception of Florida has any laws that make it illegal for lesbians to adopt. So to the same degree that any other single parents might be able to adopt, technically, lesbians should be able to adopt. The problem is most adoptions go through adoption agencies, and whether or not they're willing, and likely to place children for adoption with lesbian families becomes the issue, not whether it's legal or not. Most of the children that are placed in non marital homes, which would include lesbian homes, would be older children, children that might be disabled, or have some kind of special emotional or educational needs. Children who come from other countries or have mixed race background, in no state. Are there provisions for two lesbians to jointly adopt a child? When it happens? It's always treated as a single parent adoption, with one of the women becoming the legal mother and the child. We then want to talk to the agency that she was that had her case and tell them that we wanted her. And what that involved was having a social worker come into our home, asked us really stupid questions like, Unknown Speaker 34:38 Who was the aggressive one in the house? Unknown Speaker 34:40 She did ask us what we thought of the possibility of raising children as homosexuals. What that meant to the children sexuality, at which point we said, Listen, my mother's heterosexual had no effect on me. So she just wants Unknown Speaker 34:56 to see if that's true. Unknown Speaker 35:00 So the question of how to deal with the adoption agency always arises, are you out? Are you not out? What do you tell them when they come to visit the home? Should your lover be present or not? And I think it's a real difficult question. The basic legal advice is that if the questions asked, and you are dishonest in your response, and it's later discovered, the adoption can be overturned, because you've withheld what is considered critical information for the placement of the child. Because of that, my advice is, generally don't volunteer the information but if it's a ask, be honest about Unknown Speaker 35:37 when I come, Shadow, my and who we are, who we are. Unknown Speaker 35:44 And who do you consider to be your mother? Or do you have mothers? Unknown Speaker 35:47 Well, I consider showing ads my mother, a little bit more than holding, but I do consider Cooley as well, can call the Mom, mom, or mother. Cheryl, and I consider Gulia or it's my mother. But I still consider sheriff. I love the. center my kids grow up I believe that we were the only lesbian couple that northstate, the organization sponsoring the classes. And we had so we were kind of the guinea pig. And there were two instructors in the class one was kind of not so sensitive to her language. Often she would say things like, Well, now you father's in the class, how do you feel about this? And she would end it there, you know? Or sometimes she would say, Oh, you fathers? How do you feel about this? Oops, I need partners, you know, she pretty obvious about about that. But toward the end of the class that sort of disappeared, and she was very sensitive and with us partners instead of fathers since one of us. Unknown Speaker 37:43 Father. Good, good, good, good, good. Okay. He Unknown Speaker 37:51 was sitting alone. And I said, well, where's the button and they say, well, all babies it is our baby, who had her. And so finally I said, Well, she came out of me, but Lee caused harm to my call to not, you know, call with the biological mother is, but we really believe very strongly, and that the mother is the person who wins the child. This is for both raising for both mothers, before journalists Unknown Speaker 38:14 for an eyesore that this image that if we both just did equal amounts of parenting that he would look to us equally in both equal parents and it would be a 5050 sort of relationship. However, as it's turned out, that isn't the way it's been. And I don't know how much of that is for understanding or if there really is some credence to the biological stuff that I think about it didn't make didn't want to believe. And now I do. But I guess I feel as a non biological parent, there's, it's just like, you just have to maybe give a little bit more to equal that out. And I feel like we've done it. I feel connected with Jordan, and I know that he's reconnected with me. He does call me money costs both of us money. Unknown Speaker 38:59 And the question arises constantly, you know, what are the rights of the Komondor? Legally, not? Almost none. They cannot adopt the child in order for a person to adopt a child that we legal mother, or the biological mother would have to give up her parental rights. So you've got the same problem. You've just got a different mother who has all the rights in one who has none. There are some things you can do. One thing is a co parenting agreement, some contract between the mothers that spells out their understanding of the rights and responsibilities of the CO mother and provide some evidence of a parenting role she's playing in the life of the child, you also should have a will. I mean, any parent should have a will naming the guardian for the child in the event that that parents should die. And all of these kinds of forms and documents are really important to have because they're the only evidence of the parenting role. The other mother might Play. They're also important, I think in terms of the relationship between the two adults, that relationships do break up, and their children and they're very much alike and divorce, often with child custody and visitation battles. We've seen several cases already in the country where people have broken up and in fact filed in court against each other for visitation rights or child support, something like that. Unknown Speaker 40:31 I had my daughter with the understanding that Michelle with my ex local was going to be there with me to raise her. And I thought about putting things in writing on paper as contractual agreements, but Michelle would not deal with that. So I took her word that she would be there with me and for me and for this child, and that is my house worth about I recently have spoken with her and maybe sometime in the future. We'll have some kind of visitation between Michelle and Masami. But that is not what I was looking for. With the second child. A lot of times an argument came up with a biological mother you only want me around for the toys and the meals and the gifts and stuff and that's really not what I wanted my love of what I wanted her to give the kids that time because two children by myself it's very draining emotionally. I like to take things a lot I can't when when you're sick, you still have to get up on the kids is sick. One is sick and one is not they both go to school. There's no babysitter. It's no way no cool if I had the other mother things would be easier. I think. My Wakelin as Claire she's old she looks at we call it all time daily everybody in the family Unknown Speaker 42:26 shouldn't sound why not? Unknown Speaker 42:32 She's not she's gonna make you feel as Unknown Speaker 42:41 if we have a bit louder. Oh no. She used to be my dad. But he was just thank Unknown Speaker 43:01 you someone's gonna share parenting with someone other than a lover. Dion and Linda are not involved with each other, but they do live together and CO parent Annie, who's now four years old. They also have created an extended family from among their friends. Tiana, who lives with Linda Dionne and Jean and Rama look together and another half also take an active role in caring for and Andrews the main things that makes it work is that Linda and Dion and really try not to be possessive around around, I was raised in a traditional enough environment that I would have probably had very hard time asking to have a role in Islam. If you hadn't made that opening. It's hard to let go I have this this feeling that I fight all the time and, and I'm lucky enough to get a lot of encouragement from this family here that says it's the right thing to do is to struggle not to hold on where the society says and oftentimes I think I'm the only one that knows how to take care of and I've tried to get better over the over the years and over the months but there's always something that says Don't forget don't forget, don't give so different milk but you know like that's gonna make the big difference in my learning is that you know, different adults have different criteria or a different relationship with them and she's learning that from day one and so when she comes over to our house it's Jean and my dynamic but when she's 18 That's when she interacts you know, I'm having invested in and maintain the relationships with all of you now only for me but for me because I don't want the sole responsibility of raising and and and I don't even want it just to be like that and be there. There's no word to describe. I really Since you're with me, there's no word in the English language. I sometimes say I'm good friend, I'm sort of like an am sort of like a godmother. But really, there's no way. So for example, my parents, they've known that I had in my life, some kind of relationship with this child, and but I don't think they took it very seriously. And this summer, I went home to visit them, within an Oklahoma, very conservative community, they're very traditional. And they saw the kind of bond that is between the two of us. And they knew that it wasn't just something that they can dismiss or ignore. And it was clearly a very important part of my life. Unknown Speaker 45:47 Yeah, doesn't work as good as your jammies. Over speak, good. Unknown Speaker 45:58 From day one on, there was time, wherever DESA was with Jerry almost every day from the beginning. And while I did let get all that, well, it's difficult for a parent to leave a kid early on, it meant that I had to keep up other parts of myself, I did not get as isolated, as caught up in this 24 hour need filling position that many many mothers get into. And that's been a really wonderful thing for me to have other parts of my life going simultaneously was a very strong parenting thing. Unknown Speaker 46:38 Wasn't it? A lot of people have commented on this watching, you've had this young child going from home to home? And is that a problem? But sometimes it is hard. I think that at times when she hasn't been with one of us long enough that it can be difficult kind of transition. But overall, I think she does great with it. And she doesn't have a split home, she has two homes, that she has her things at each time with monsters into each element, and had been there. Unknown Speaker 47:09 Yeah. I find it's much easier for him to dismiss them. Unknown Speaker 47:18 And I find I have to push on them, you know, and say to the table and say them and argue for them. Much more than I'm comfortable with doing melee. And much more probably than I'm used to doing with an intimate Unknown Speaker 47:31 I think that one of the hard parts for us that we didn't have the history with each other, we came together pretty much around having a child together. And we didn't have the the interpersonal history of and, and basis to get through a lot of the rough times that that any parents are going to go through Unknown Speaker 47:54 plenty of men around. Got me. Unknown Speaker 48:17 In a lesbian community, people relate to boys and girls differently. For example, Annie, is what I consider a pretty aggressive child, some lesbians will look at her behavior and that I consider pretty aggressive behavior and say, Oh, isn't that wonderful? She's being a strong woman. And then I was wondering if she was a boy. And if she was a little bit bigger than five, they would probably look at that same behavior. And they would label it as typically male behavior, when in fact, it's typically four year old, active child behavior. As far as the other children are concerned, I think the children will cheer similar to she has two mothers or rather a father, but sometimes I think the boy packs more than the girls will say, Where's your daddy? And especially like if they have a workday and the tools dad, and I heard Diane and I think it was a lender that told me that they had first explained that to me that there's two types of dads there's one kind of Daddy that has a state and the and he helps the child grow by by having the same and there's another planner daddy that's in the home and help the child in the home and your daddy was the one that gave the same. And it seems a very good way of approaching it for a preschool child and explaining how you came and and where your daddy is, in many respects. I feel like it's sort of a sexist idea that Unknown Speaker 49:46 children need to have men in their lives in order to get the attributes that you want and enter male trials essentially like to be a male adult and I think that women can definitely portray values as I want to pass on to Jordan as strong independent of fiction and being able to express his emotions. Unknown Speaker 50:12 He does have things like that, that I think are an influence on him. He made his brother madlibs in Seattle and, Unknown Speaker 50:19 and he's really involved. They see each other weekend. His preschool teachers have him in I liked that George, he sees that man, take care of children. Unknown Speaker 50:35 By no means do I try to project to my children that this is a world only women. I'm not a separatist. And I think maybe there should be some male figures somewhere, but I'm not gonna beat the bushes for it. And he much rather be around male children, or even his children, he might just be with kids, he doesn't really identify or look for his father. And if he did, I would not discourage that I would let him follow him visit with him. I just don't want any interaction with him myself. I think it was the day before Father's Day. And my teacher told the whole class that we were supposed to make Father's Day cards. And I said that I didn't want to because my father has to live around you. And she said that the whole class had to and so since I wasn't going to send it to them, and I wasn't going to make it I made one for Cheryl because one time I got a card for her. And I wrote something like something like your father shall because he was taking my boss please Unknown Speaker 51:58 really tell everybody their school you have to love us Unknown Speaker 52:07 how do they find out if they know Unknown Speaker 52:15 I tell them the story. Sometimes it just safe again. Sometimes it just I mostly don't tell him always because then it's like, well, you need Bob because you wouldn't be in it's like mostly boys that that it just puts them in shock because I'm had the fun Unknown Speaker 52:38 to do you do anything or friends at school Unknown Speaker 52:41 now that shows love Unknown Speaker 52:43 you today, do you ever hear anybody talking about lesbians or gay people Unknown Speaker 52:49 at school? Same thing about Yeah. And that's one of the things we've seen. Unknown Speaker 53:02 To Unknown Speaker 53:04 school, we don't know if you went to school. Unknown Speaker 53:07 We want Unknown Speaker 53:11 to say people who are gay are fat. What do you think when they say that? In my head, I felt like giving them back upside their head. That's good people are not really offended. I want Unknown Speaker 53:36 water. Oldest club. So thank you. When I was living my daughter, who was severely premature, I was notified that only certain people could see my child, my mother, my grandmother, my daughter's father's mother and grandmother, myself and the father. Being that that has nothing to do with the way I live my life. I guess, if my girlfriend could come instead of all of those other people. And because I've been brought up and first my social worker told me no. So after my blood pressure elevated and I had to be sedated a few times, the social worker asked me who this girlfriend was so I had to add the hospital as a boy and all the administrative officials explain that this girlfriend was in fact my lover and that we were raising this child as joint parents Unknown Speaker 54:39 shouldn't be the board. Unknown Speaker 54:43 Yeah, she hid it. That's a good girl. You understand that? She hid it. And then later there was some cracks about all who's been playing father and who's going to depose them and be the man and, and all kinds of little snickering about our relationship and every time you want it In the nurses made some little comments to each other. And it was a, it was a hard time that we went through because the baby was in such critical condition Can't we put him under the die. And we just did not need Unknown Speaker 55:27 these people that was. Unknown Speaker 55:45 For large insurance company and coordinate affirmative action, we have other Personnel Administrators type of responsibilities. I like what I do, fortunately, I'm not really a very avid there's so many times that I want to talk about what I did over the weekend with with Margarita and baby and I can do it. I had a friend recently who had the job who he and his wife had a baby about the same time that that Carmen Leia was born. And I couldn't tell him, you know that I just had a baby to Unknown Speaker 56:25 find out what I was talking about. Unknown Speaker 56:28 But um, you know, he would come in and bring me pictures of his little Susan, and I'm so glad to show him commonly and how to keep it all and then call him. Unknown Speaker 56:43 When he first got pregnant, I called my mother to tell her, I said, Mom gets shut down and got pregnant. And the first thing she said was, oh, insemination, and sort of blew my socks off completely. And the week before she had watched the Phil Donahue show, there was some sort of show that lesbians who had children through insemination, and she was completely first, completely comfortable with the idea and just really took the wind out of me a lot. She has been very financially supportive, buys gifts all the time, talks about her all the time. The problem that I've had with her that she hasn't told a lot of people that she doesn't know how to first explain me as a lesbian, and then explain my relationship to Annie, I guess the main obstacle around this whole situation for my parents, and I'm a lesbian. And fundamentally, they can't accept that. Initially, when I told them that I was pregnant, and I was gonna have a nanny. They they freaked out, and they cannot accept Linda's role. They have stated on a number of occasions that that if anything happens to me, that they would sue for custody of and because one is as legal guardian in the event that I die. People do live with that kind of threat, all the time that somebody's going to challenge their right to custody. The other areas where people might think live with some constant threat is what about the state? You know, can the state come in and take their children away? And to some degree, the answer's yes. The state has intervened in homes where there were lesbian mothers. Usually the state intervenes only in situations where there's some report or suspicion of child abuse, or child neglect. However, people are much more susceptible, if they're poor, if they're receiving some kind of county welfare benefits, if they're in some way involved with a system that's intervening in their life that knows more about their life than it probably should. The kinds of cases we've seen that I think are real disturbing, are where say Child Protective Services comes into the home for some reason. And finds out that there are lesbian mothers in that home and removes the children in situations where if the mother wasn't a lesbian, they in fact, we removed the children. We went for an evaluation of Maria and her first year in school, and the man's evaluation of someone will obviously been in the school system for a very long time and was expecting one parent from Maria. And when we both walked in, I think the combination of us being both women and being women of different colors, Unknown Speaker 59:58 and then female we Wherever your parents so we can't really get valuation. Unknown Speaker 1:00:02 Right. He just, he really didn't know what to do with that system came bumbling in his right before Unknown Speaker 1:00:12 right so she's usually a very particular person. But he settled down into it and remained a nerd. But the questions got answered the information got there. And the work I've done and the work I've done and the the interview ended with him saying, blah, blah, blah. I'll call a warm view. And we just said, Well, that would be very nice, do call one of us. But that was about the worst. It's very common phobia. But addressing the issue of homophobia really is being part of who you are and letting the kids know you're part of who you are. And giving them support to deal with whatever harassment they get. Although the kids in our caucus have got really minimal corrects. Unknown Speaker 1:00:55 I wouldn't say I won't have a kid because I'm not white. If you just look around you all minorities had kids, it doesn't stop with having a kid because they Oh my god, you know, when Unknown Speaker 1:01:07 I told my mother that I was thinking about having kids she thought I was crazy. Not because I'm a lesbian, having children but because she felt well he you are a bodybuilder and you're just getting no. And you're gonna make your life more difficult. So the very hard, I don't know what may have changed had to about whether it was crazy. And that I think that he just started accepting the fact that it was more important that unhappy. Not committees that heard of my father have been divorced, and he's dead and everything. She's got a boyfriend. And he's very much in that as she is. And she realized that that's breaking tradition. And she's very happy though when I pointed out to her so she's realized that I'm very happy and she's just accepted it just very nicely my whole family when grandma and grandpa crash oh, get all caught up. Unknown Speaker 1:02:06 I think it's wonderful that more lesbians are thinking of having kids. And it sort of makes sense to me that this is a time that will begin to happen. Because for the longest time, we had to stay in the closet so much that then to produce children to feel so good about ourselves that we felt we could pass on our values. Pass on the good feelings we have about ourselves was my infant asking too much. But now with lesbians coming out of the closet, lesbians, all of us supporting each other more, feeling better about ourselves. It's part of the maturing of the lesbian community that we've all reached this point where we think of having kids but we're being real serious about it and declaring ourselves family worthy of having families and want to be a part of your respective families right let's go more than a day your mom and mom or dad or a mom friend and my mom want to take a few minutes to make a circle or rearrange ourselves to each other? Evening all right with us is the second time to see you getting on when you're small wonderful when you try to do something ourselves into the documentary ways of doing exceedingly great things naming conventions that I've seen pilots appear to be fundamentally perceptual and so it's very difficult to observe so can you say more importantly to maximize the different styles based on the child separation and all love our families we have mothers biological mothers is also interesting but I'm also increasingly choosing our I love my dad and I don't want to share it anymore I love my dad and I just to the last video you been told and this is the last thing you need to know why did they really recognize that he she said to me he was nervous he was nervous She says, what a very this is more than just this once or twice a year. So that in terms of, of having to think of shape and Unknown Speaker 1:10:27 relation Unknown Speaker 1:10:29 to violence is ultimately responsible relationships Unknown Speaker 1:10:38 collected, Cheryl Unknown Speaker 1:10:43 lived in a household really where she was one having that much of the wealth and putting into the challenge, the child has won more than friendships. And then I'm going to be responsible for that neither of you are going to be Unknown Speaker 1:11:11 hands on with me in terms of what we're seeing. What does it mean in terms of a lover relationship, because it makes me nervous to hear that woman who gave birth to that child. So she doesn't want sole responsibility. Because I couldn't stand it. I think the idea of children having different models usually very important, I also know that there's always a possibility, as much as we'd like them not. We'd like our relationships, last, we'd like our friendships, there's always a possibility you are going to be the last person in line with that. And, and, and so, you know, that's a very rosy picture to me. I have feel very supportive in terms of my Unknown Speaker 1:12:05 building continues to work. Unknown Speaker 1:12:07 But I have to say within me, I feel like when I hear this word, because it's not as if it's not necessarily to the to the birth of the child context Unknown Speaker 1:12:17 to say that. Unknown Speaker 1:12:21 It is true that the child has to deal with having a different mother going from my mother should have should that be a drastic change. And the woman who decides she no longer has to deal with that within yourself. Because it's still true that one of the worst thing to me as women can be called as a bad thing. No matter what relationship we have with children, and you'd be hard pressed to make a point that someone calls you a bad mother is one of the struggle with it. And for women who have children decide it's not the right thing for them. It's a worthy struggle. But it's a major struggle. So I'm not I don't, I don't want you to think that I think it's a bad idea. But there are inherent problems in all of us producing children and anyone producing children. That's how you go, Hey, Seamus. I was interested in what you were going to lose and she said that she didn't know the source for food. I mean, I think that that was presumably injected into her child knows is very disruptive Unknown Speaker 1:13:43 to the customer itself. It's really nobody was close. I mean, it just wasn't healthy Unknown Speaker 1:13:54 I think that's a legitimate question. I just think that there is in traditional Unknown Speaker 1:14:00 use of institutional Unknown Speaker 1:14:06 traditionally the way I was brought up I knew that I was going to be after a few years a few of these people try to hurt your feelings as fortunately Unknown Speaker 1:14:24 no issues whatsoever as to the most forgiving ready? Yeah, they seem like Unknown Speaker 1:14:38 embracing although they feel connected by showing up looking at them by the way you should see Unknown Speaker 1:14:47 the data in company Unknown Speaker 1:14:54 this video Nothing worse than we would like them to leave, but in any event show is very nice. And we have been connected to both of us, she brings up the question and she sees the both in the legal situation, because you have taken he came to the house where it was both of us. And if we ever have a disagreement about the table, we will never have I know we had to do because we were going to lie to both one of them. They both feel very secure with us. But they know that there's one person they have close. And that the person is going to go through ultimately, we sat down and we had a conversation with Maria. Because if we ever had an argument, we'll be able to get to where am I gonna go. And so we decided because of cultural stuff, and I was able to do it because in my mind to be an extremely exciting time right in. So there's a real No, that we get a break up, she has someone who's harmed worse than someone who says, That's my kid, I'm gonna fight over. Unknown Speaker 1:16:31 It. And I think that there are a lot of as is, as you talk with any potential mothers and fathers or mothers and fathers are always interested in how do you provide the emotional best material and maintain for women, mostly their own separate identity. So that mother's the only person that we were like, that still are struggling as much as anyone who's struggling, and you know, creating an emotionally safe place for your children's, and struggling. And, and I think that there are some some particular issues that we're using. And one is, you know, if you live in a community, where children don't see a lot of divorce, they don't worry about parents separately. But if you live in a community, such as a lesbian community kind of cater to children, where lovers change, there's been a different issue for that child. If they happen to see lovers staying together for two years, or three years or four years. But then the relationship ends. They you know, they have a different they have a different model of security than the models, some heterosexual between heterosexual households, obviously, not everybody, because there's this huge force. But those are the kinds of things Unknown Speaker 1:18:13 and yet, I work with this woman, she she just had she and her lover just kind of and one of the struggles that they had having babies, how do they? How does the biological mother she's the one? How does she decide where she's going to compromise about what she thinks is best for her child? Because she respects her lover also being one of the parents. But she did give birth to this channel. So they so for a long time they had this issue of she doesn't sleep all night. One of them thought, well, we should let her cry longer. The other one thought, No, we should never let a baby cry at night. And they find themselves at odds in a way that have never been on before. And a woman who has a biological mother who at any moment she could say hey, wait a minute, that's my kids will go by my rules in this relationship, and risk the idea that she was trying to raise this baby. Unknown Speaker 1:19:20 And she makes it portable, Unknown Speaker 1:19:23 but struggled. Because all of us as mothers want the best for our children. And that happens within any heterosexual couples. Any heterosexual couple with kids will tell you if you're stressed your relationship well, when there's not suitable support that there is the marriage of the thing. And the same way that existing heterosexual couples, when that's something to be taken, I think a little more serious. And I once again, I mean I really feel as I've said my filming is that it is time for us to be happy. take less time for us to be happy. And that should be celebrated. And we should support each other. And I do with the strong regard I also feel that it's a wonderful idea. It's a great thing to go ahead and do. But you really need to think as anyone needs to be prepared for lack of support that the heterosexual community doesn't stand Unknown Speaker 1:20:29 behind the idea of a meeting it's true I mean a bit you know, there's so few of us who have been taking part in everything you've done and if you haven't had any of those things about that never seen and never seen university you know the n AR Q in the NBA there's been a lot of joy in Manulife one because they will sound you know activities and she loved it well as a form of study we I did I enjoy being pregnant and because of multiple things when I was in the hospital the first year that I had this woman coming on to them for that and my family was one of the only unmarried you know, I mean, have you ever been living with this one for 17 years? I want to marry from one person and but I was no longer married first thing that bothers me more than anything else and you but but this I actually think that having the baby and then have it because we will certainly take care of each other even if we had a dog so even the dog was put to the goal that we want to go down the face of traumatize because people have people have dogs and you need love those dogs into but all of a sudden you have someone there who requires much more attention. And so the animals have been pushed to the side so you have a gentle back. Right? And you have a jealous lover. Right? And And whereas Anthony might not be very clear on it she just voted on this day when he woke up and she said what about the baby as if it's my day you know, and so she did live with the baby. And I'm usually from infectivity now, although it was I did feel of a potential nothing because he had a new lover and I thought it was really disgusting that he didn't like the mother and but at the same time I really thought that this woman was my daughter's parent and I really thought she was the mother. So you know the conflicts that came up that had to do with dealing with it to really discover the power because all those functions she wants to consummate and she doesn't want to like she just put a blindfold on our whole house was like eating alone so that there are things that people you're gonna have to pay for your mother's financial discipline. And you have to figure out that you know, the kids cause an incredible amount of money that they should be good people and so you end up Unknown Speaker 1:24:03 having I mean you can one in 14 Unknown Speaker 1:24:07 we have once they become you see now I'm ready to say maybe someone will listen to us. He said that's only that's only right now but they also know and so you have to be me and I feel committed to the world in our household debatable love and you're moving in very positively to growth. See how you can do that in the meal. They don't see the option and when I was going I'm gonna get mad and I have to move out when I was 911 because I do have a different service going on. So really, I have a commitment and show has a commitment but they proved as a big plus. During you know from door to door. You really had two teenage years, you actually have to think of yourself as a teenager, think of yourself as an adolescent, what were you like to your parents? Someday is a child. So you see, you know, having a small baby. But yet, but, but if you Unknown Speaker 1:25:29 know if you can do it also, by the time that they see, I mean, we have this running joke, but that's because moving pieces at the same time, it's not as if you're dealing with an anomaly, right. And our girls love our girls not not as teenagers to us, they're, Unknown Speaker 1:25:45 you know, showing to be obnoxious, and Margo could be obnoxious, and we just can't wait to do. So just that you need to think that things screw with it, because they need to do and they really aren't to the voters, by the way, right. But you just can't think in terms of, I want to have a baby, you need to think yourself, Am I willing to commit in my life for the next 18 years, you know, to doing this bringing up this child, my mother died, I was learning, you know, you, you need to think about the fact that there's childcare issues in school children, dogs have issues if you really enough so that you get bogged down, but then you face reality, because we didn't have a woman who was share a lover had planned this baby, and then they separated. And when her mother left her, this woman was devastated. And she was devastated because she didn't know the right foods. She didn't know that baby did this kind of thing at night. And maybe she will not essentially provide for anyone to talk lonely. And her only friends that we can have a sexual women. So when she was feeling, you know that so it's the kind of thing that if you want to have a child, Unknown Speaker 1:26:59 you need to Unknown Speaker 1:27:00 think about your commitment, and then do it, I certainly will not back up on it. I really do. I love my kids. Not all the time. But I do love them. And I feel that I'll be around until they die like that. Sometimes I think they shouldn't do it. But other than having an ego is that they will, they will look at it and then you're always good to forgive me. And they don't you don't get back to you the rewards. Maybe that's what's feeling like the feeling and you say you have to see yourself as someone who needs to know that you're in your giving. And you get from that giving. But I really, I really think that it's because too many people have kids, and babies don't have children have babies and then find themselves in situations when the baby has not been so warm. And you don't want to do that. So that's really what I'm saying. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying think about the whole picture and not the to child who's going to look up the children Unknown Speaker 1:28:16 in our really know the adoptive parents on the other parents are not so interesting Unknown Speaker 1:28:27 for me. Is that a choice from the filmmaker? Is that is that actually reflective of what the mothers are out there to go there to adopt to adopt more, more, Unknown Speaker 1:28:38 a lot more adoption. Unknown Speaker 1:28:43 A decent message Unknown Speaker 1:28:44 right into Massachusetts. Our understanding is that lesbian started having kids in the West Coast four or five years ago, there are a lot of lesbians on the west coast in Boston and two campuses, relationally challenged practices. But out brings in 1000s of students on campus for kids who were growing up in like this moment living abroad, where we were missing some first. So it's new. And because it's new, you know, it's it should be a lot more. That's true. But as our communities and all the different definitions and places have kids, it will be more interesting. You know, in your in your coupling with our children, their institution, you don't have to you don't have to do a PTA or whatever, whatever city, your child or children it's a very different life and I remember having a conversation with this heterosexual man I worked with when she was having her first baby, we all, you know, all of us mothers who worked together and sat and said, Your life will never be the same. That's true lesbian community will never be the same after all of our children grow up, to get to be who they are. But to me, the commitment is not only to your children and faithfully speaking, but the commitment also to have the struggle within yourself, on how you define yourself. And, you know, we, as feminists, for a long time, have worked hard to not have to be able to be mothers, and not only be mothers, that have our own self identities. And at the same time, be with mothers and take good care of our children, so that we raise, you know, emotionally strong, well adjusted adults. And that that in and of itself, is about Unknown Speaker 1:31:04 I think, looking, taking Unknown Speaker 1:31:05 an assessment of where you know, you can get support, that are guarantees, we think you can get support that shape. And we absolutely know that even if we'd love to have their support, there are some people in your lives who are not going to be support so that you don't go after it, and have your heart broken. Again, and again, and again, and perhaps even pass on the message to your child that this person, perhaps your mothers, or your fathers should be there for you. But what is the things to look at? Because you want your own life to be full? And is one of those possible, you want to provide that as much as possible for your children in that reality of where are you actually going to get? And where are you not going to get even though the story of mom, you know, mom and dad and brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles, includes that they should of course, love your children. Our parents, my, my mother is very supportive to me is not as very supportive, we're very lucky. We're very, very lucky. Unknown Speaker 1:32:14 That was the case of all of us. Unknown Speaker 1:32:18 And once again, it's not discouraging, it's more look, realistically it was your expectations are for you and your children is not realistically, and also know that you know the decision to have children or not have children. In the end, these are very rational decisions. You can sit here, you know, these blackboards with reasons on why you shouldn't have children the past few months, I struggle with any of this. That's true. You can also miss all wonderful reasons for having children. You know, you get to pass on your bad news. You get to hopefully create another wonderful person in the world, you get the support of yourself grow. And, and those are wonderful reasons Unknown Speaker 1:33:12 also Unknown Speaker 1:33:14 a man, it's when you want to work fine, or your points. And you know, that one was indeed was very strong. I would say, go ahead and do what you can do about it. Think about the ramifications of how you go about doing. Are you going to be comfortable saying your child later? I don't know if you don't know what I was interested in sperm. Are you going to be in? Are you going to be comfortable with the southern woman who she is escaping the cost of a child? Exactly. Is that That's a strong child. All of the options that you have. I am comfortable with knowing who the father is and not having his name on paper. And really trust that this bothers me. The nurturing is not going to Unknown Speaker 1:34:10 become much more strong with music. You can sit down and have a conversation with a man