Unknown Speaker  00:01
Huge two things I've Well, several things I want to say by way of preface, but first is that this is just enormous a huge and complex topic to talk about representations of women on MTV. As you know, MTV runs 24 hours a day in half a minute texts I've been taping for three years or four years already since 82. I have tapes this long. And so to try to bring some kind of order into this plethora of materials, it is an unprecedented form in this way. And it also keeps on changing. I've just completed a first version of a book on on on MTV. And of course, as I'm now revising it, six or seven months later, I'm having to totally revise at some point, I'm going to have to say stop and make an argument and so forth. Now, I have written I've been doing, I wanted to say a word about where I'm coming from. For those who don't who don't know my work. And this is partly what the charts have for them. The chart that I think is labeled chart two, with a chart number one, the pull up polarized categories. Yeah, I don't care what it shows you how we've been thinking, in terms of cinematic form, we've been thinking in terms of those polarized categories of a classical dominant Hollywood cinema form, like you saw this morning. And then, you know, my book polarizes that classical form, against an avant garde form. Okay, but within that second category atman God, we, we've been analyzed in several different different shapes and forms. And one of the things that first attracted me to MTV was that it seemed to call into question our whole paradigm. In other words, you could no longer distinguish between a classical and Alan God form, at least not so simply that I was looking at these incredibly avant garde videos, I'm talking in terms of self reflexivity, I mean, it's a commonplace now, but just to have a screen above the two figures, as you just saw in the Annie Lennox version, this is a very mild, self reflexive video, that we're constantly as you know, screens present, they're playing the video that you're watching, there are, you know, incredible sort of cameras in shot, totally foregrounding, the means of production and the processes of production that we used to think and film was a sort of avant garde tech sort of technique. So the first thing the first papers I've written have been about the processes of signification and MTV and self reflexivity and the violation of verbal sort of the kinds of codes and you think of a video very early video, like the cause, you might think it would come crosses all boundaries, not only around programming, the means of production, but of high art and pop art. And then it brings in my Greek kind of in surrealism, along with popular images, this is from King Kong. So what I've talked about in early papers, what I've been doing is plethoric violating HIPAA to sacrosanct boundaries and coloriages. Total, throwing in and I've been discussing it very much in terms of post modernism as a post modernists for just because of its violation of all hitherto sacrosanct boundaries and polarity. So now that work is published and I'm happy to not talk what I'm going to talk about today, I just wanted to set what I'm going to talk about in some kind of context. Now I've also in that work, been trying to talk about

Unknown Speaker  03:35
what happens with spectator in this 24 hour continuous, you know, ongoing flow of contract negotiation from one text to another. So I've been trying to talk about the influence on the spectator to talk very much about dissented most of the spectator, although I've also been arguing that there is a certain kind of centering in the constant return to the lip syncing, image and body of the rock star plays videos in relation to ads in this earlier work, which obviously, is what an ad does, and ads have always used avant garde strategies in sense of the classical Hollywood film, but always had a central focus on the project that had to be sold through the desire usually for a woman. But so there's a similar kind of ad technique in videos that the concert is selling the body of the Rockstar, so there's constant cutting back to that. So there's, it's a dissented experience in many ways, because of the constant alternation of positioning as this text color wanted one another in this hypnotic way, but there's also a kind of a centering, and identification for the purposes commercial, you're selling the records with the bodies of the workstyle. Now in order to organize it, the second chart what I did again, this was often earlier work, I had to I decided to make try to make some kinds of categories and you see what I've done there. I divided the videos up in terms of content that really the first labels are really content length Here's where I talk about romantic nihilist socially conscious classical, and post modernist. I began with three categories, I expanded it to five. And of course, the temptation is to keep on adding categories because there's just so much material. I read a prospectus for another book on MTV from somebody who had, I think, 50 categories you see, and I just thought that's just to this, I think, whatever problems that are with it, at least it gives me a position from which to speak. Then on the side, I put kind of the predominant themes, love and authority, issues of authority and sex, the do seem to occupy much of the material and in some early papers, I discussed that in some length. Now what what I wanted to do today was to obviously focus on particularly the issue of women, but some of these categories will come out will be relevant to how I want to organize my discussion of the representation of women specifically. All right. Now, what I want to tell you a bit more about before we get on to the actual discussion is also my theoretical framework, which people are familiar with the book, this book will be familiar to you, if you're not, will not be familiar and also may seem strange, but what I what I'm trying to talk about in this work is what I'm calling the social imaginary, like call applause I know this is the word imagine I'm using my phone since did not really talk use the phrase social imaginary. But it seems to me to imply by his general discussion of way the managers work in the sense that every child moves with the same imaginary, which is the pre eatable dyadic relationship with the mother to a common symbolic, which is a language and other representational orders. Now, I think there's social and the more explicit sense, which is my attempt to sort of combine monsters like Khan, how unsuccessful that may be. But my attempt, I think, in that the cultural, historical embeddedness of this language or these larger orders, or Cultural Historical, they're not eternal and unchanging, therefore, that social, and

Unknown Speaker  07:28
I think it continues alongside the imaginary continues alongside this symbolic, but is enmeshed with it so that we could say, the cuts into the short that in our what I've talked about the 80s. I'm talking about a social imaginary, constructed through the contradictory, post 60s historical moment in which we live and in which these rock videos arise as a mass culture form. So don't think it's by any chance, incidental or accidental that they arise now and ages I think there isn't, there are real reasons. One is the sexual terrain opened up by the feminist movement, among others, which had complex and contradictory results, the whole explosion, not only in heterosexual, homosexuality, and heterosexuality brought other kinds of usually labeled progress, sexualities, just the whole explosion and opening up of that area. And I think it's the mapping in the ages of this new sexual terrain onto an increasingly high tech stage of an already highly advanced capitalism that produces this extraordinary entity imaginary and I'm using work here, the back of this work, just a few more references. I'm not going to again, it's not my topic today, I'm just trying to fill in framework is Frederick Jameson's work some of his work in the political unconscious for his work on post, postmodern society, post modernism in consumer society, in the anti aesthetic, foster that sort of thing. Now MTV, as I see it now and by the way, what my home might have broken, my argument today is about MTV explicitly that cable channel I decided to organize my book around rock videos in that cycle exhibition because obviously rock videos are, are a form that are played in all kinds of places in income Danceteria, to me says to you by getting a buying a video cassette and taking home and watching only Tina Turner to college calls, you know, Douglas has its own business, his own video thing, Rock Video, plugin, you know, machine and so forth. So, but I'm interested in in the implications around this institutional seven, because I do want to say some things that I say about individual rock videos may hold up, you know, on their own but a lot of my arguments are to do with the process through which they have to be selected to even get them and to do the whole censorship of MTV and so forth, I'm trying to find out about that they're very difficult to actually talking to them and really having trouble getting an interview with anybody. On TV, we'll see what happens. Alright, so once MTV explodes, I think the imaginary desires allowed free free play in our period through the various liberation movements, corrupting them and divesting them on any individually revolutionary implications. But also, it's chosen non stop for a minute. continuous flow has to commit are the positions not necessarily supported by the society or the culture or favored by the institutions and to find expression, which is where you get all these contradictory and substandard answers. It's not a matter of if the police seal institution and the trouble with the discussing it on the off the cuff with people is they always turn it on for a few minutes and catch whatever happens to be on an end segment TV is this. I say, but have you did you watch? You know, what, how long have you worked, you know, and it's just occasional? Well, you, you think that's what it is now, and if you're not, you can tell from how much I've taped. I've been watching it, you know, day round, and I've had it on what I'd have to tape it during the night. And so I've also been doing our rundowns, you know to see exactly what goes on in any one hour. And a horse, I can tell you very roughly that when you know the various things are Gone was the BJs comments these the ads for MTV, there's been things around video flights that sometimes interviews with various rock stars, as you know, the channel has decided to stick over to MTV and music news. It does not have like their album oriented rock stations, other news, the album or a watch, they just open up a glimpse of another reality another word MTV is addressing. You know, those that we Jays are supposed to be sent home and teenage types of Oh, my teenage sources say they're not at all home, or are comfortable to them. And also, my sources say that they can see that they're really cute. It's so natural.

Unknown Speaker  12:21
But anyway, that's the effort. And then of course, there's the irregular ads, which are getting increasingly indistinguishable from rock videos. And I can now actually tell I mean even a couple of seconds, and I can tell, but that's a really great experience. That is not a video coming, but it's an app. But there's about half an hour, what I got is half an hour, I was looking at peak periods, I do want to do a more off timing here. But it is it was about 30 minutes of videos and 30 minutes of other material and thought was rather high, actually, but that was five to six or the chooser kind of as opposed to high out. All right now, what what I've done in terms of women, which is related partly to the chart, but I decided to, again, try to organize discussion, the types I'm going to say obviously, selected for their representational nature and but again, it's not exclusionary, you you you will most likely be able to think of types that don't fit before I'm going to discuss in relation to women. And what I've chosen is to continue to work on the male gaze that is taken over from film studies. So I distinguish five different kinds of gaze, in videos in contrast to the more or less monolithic, male gaze that we've been discussing in the Hollywood film. Now, those who are following that work may know that we began to open up that paradigm somewhat, and to look more for perhaps there is a female gaze in Hollywood film, well, there were female discourses present for a time as in today's film, that kind of thing. But I think that the gazes and to be honest, it's really quite, quite other than each other as it were a much more diverse than any find across a bunch of Hollywood films. And I'm calling them there's a psychoanalytic All right, there's a second logic terms relationship, justified by my notion that the whole form is in some kind of sense. Regression to an imaginary a predictable days and calling it valid gays, the traditional via stick fetishistic gauge, when the classical cinema come on this, like, the classic facility, and the feminist female one, and I brought that as a split, fourth category, feminist and female explain what I mean, by the difference. Now the one that you just saw as you're coming in, the Annie Lennox will need to refrain from I would put in my category of a feminist lock. Okay, it's explicitly addressing in its narrative, this use to do with women we're doing a class style So you've got doctors we've got, we've got construction workers, you know, and it's very careful in its racial combination have a white woman, black woman is is doing very good and very deliberate feminist politics, and it's great. I mean, I'm not, I just want to get clear what it is. Now I think the distinguishing of these four kinds of days enables exploration of precisely groose imaginary a particular video is addressing which is what I'm interested in and how meanings about the male or female budget are produced. From a feminist point of view there are certain ironies that emerged as I started this exploration since in at least two cases the biological sex of the rock star was at odds with the videos textured sexual strategies. Now I can tell I really don't want to do too much talking I do think the workshop should be entertaining to you can tell you more about my my free ebook on how to do the whole category if anyone's really interested. But let's just accept the terms if you will for now because I think it would hang up too long to go into that that theoretical and let's see how it works out and then I can maybe come back to the theory now what I want to do is just put in just what we remember put on this so we remember this gave to click through to these Eclipse I'm afraid that quality is bad because the the join they're already the second taking that to two which which represent the classical male gaze and you probably know how many people actually watch rock videos regularly if I may know them but I remind you first you're going to be very familiar to due to addiction watching but it's an it's a kind of a parody but I want to talk about the parody problem all right this is Johnny paw watching watching for there I'm gonna tell you I'm going to fix it My daughter said he had confirmation? alright that's enough actually he does when the girl

Unknown Speaker  19:44
comes back to her.

Unknown Speaker  19:46
Okay, now those those videos are clearly in the product call in the post E to Kofax register. But I want to now go on and I'm gonna have to fast forward through unfortunately because this doesn't have Remote Control I have to put my hand on it but maybe I can just say what I'm going to do while I'm doing it anyway

Unknown Speaker  20:16
I want what I'm interested in is how certain female stars have taken this up what I'm looking for even catch it when they want to get to the governor very familiar to take materials or both in terms of its narrative you know the types of distinguishing types and terms also are formed and the classical wire with a pedigree of backgrounds we have to start with and doesn't start with taking the class fully we want to go back a little bit phase

Unknown Speaker  21:21
two I want to do a story that those of you know that video actually begins in in a filming studio and you are shot the first shot is the face of what I call the poor director. Okay who's clearly looking at a screen you cut to a shot in between you see that that image going on but you see that he's on the screen with two heads of director and his assistant he's saying I want to see you've got upon in Georgia though yes, yes, I'll get I'll get to your reader anytime you say okay, then we've got two which is clearly several spaces in this video there's a space of the studio screaming in this space at the set where that what you saw just now is going on because you were filming a space outside the studio where the director corny manages to meet her we cut to him coming to her like the cut back then it goes through this screen as you're comparing later on to the stage set and that ending on a very handsome man gives her a great big present which is the rich the other and she goes to her dressing room and then we hear her voice over with the director watch I mean the point about the if you look at study point of view in this video is it's all the PDS for directors point of view let me walk you don't know it is to the camera pulls back and shows you that it is but the whole video is actually his gaze at her plus our gaze occur which becomes one and the shop just showed there where she's performing. So his gaze will be discovered because the camera pans in there he's watching but we meanwhile think it's it's addressed to us. So the whole thing is structured sort of the Madonna putting himself or herself in the male gaze with one or two Madonna's is well the three ways historical Madonna right he's a star and the Madonna run that I caught him he's the star within the movie he goes to her dressing room and he beats him outside and then there's Madonna to who's the star acting the shots being filmed very complicated sort of series you know, playing going on but the point of view point is and then all of them she's object to the gaze now in in this one she tells a very interesting thing because when I'm striation who's speaking this video, the visual say it's the male gaze is the directors gaze, wanting to possess her but the song is a song from inside the show, which is on the Material Girl so that's Madonna's two voice speaking. What about Madonna one? She hardly has a voice. She has a voice only in the moment of the dressing room. When she's speaking to her friend and show she's not a Material Girl. She said he keeps trying to win me with presents. And she just got me this diamond necklace. Do you want it? Right? So she's like humble, it's only 10 She speaks then he visits her in an intercom there's also you know, flash forward flash backwards and there's a tape there's a little moment where she's arriving with the rich man in the in the glossy red car and he's turning to a woman she's running around speaking and she bumps into the core director and now the flash forward is to him giving her the daisies industry there before they all leave them they only when she comes around the corner in what was the days as well. looking at screens to link to careless earnings, it gets in the car and waits to see and the poor director gets in and it ends up as a razor sharp open embracing but the point that I'm trying to make is here is a female star now let me just backtrack because the thing before I go on to make my search thing is starting to stop make assertions about videotapes is that you understand the difficulty of making such assertions which is why I think the post mortem even California Girls is self conscious about its wires it's playing with the classical male gaze rather than being it but nevertheless, it's getting off on it and same with Johnny park so exaggerating that there's a way in which videos are playing with what we've been discussing any male gaze and saying so all those times it's okay because we know what we're doing you don't have to tell us what we're doing perfectly well aware. Well, the daughter has to understand is in a similar thing if you're never clear exactly how thoughts parenting when she's taking off gentleman different ones that are home I remember figure in both those that film and How to Marry a Millionaire. So she carried in shape but was always with Madonna a question because underneath all those levels, when I actually looked at in the donor video, I really think she's getting what she loves and relishes the position as objects of the days that I've seen interviews with her where she says, I want it. I wanted it and I went out and I got it. You know, when she's quite upfront about her tremendous ambition. On the other hand, she's an extremely gutsy, vivacious on on typical, she doesn't play the typical families, you know, and I'm really interested in Hollis, she's a costume and Madonna. I'm interested a second

Unknown Speaker  26:48
look alike, but the female fans on the close the Masons doing this kind of thing. It's really interesting. She dresses as some sort of bag lady come, you know, burlesque Queen come Sunday. So it's a very interesting sort of mingling. But anyway, that's really my first the first time. But I do think when you actually analyze the videos, the point of view shot does tell you that she is positioning herself let me just sort of get to my conclusion. Okay, as I say, the most significant thing is that she this video is essentially located in the male imaginary, that's what I'm concerned about. She allows herself to be positioned as object to the male gaze both within the double narration individual and in the TV screen spectator relationship where she plays deliberately for the camera and it's implied audience, she construct a video around the concept of a male gaze that renders woman objects in classical fashion, and enjoys being objects. Analogous, I think, to the power m she enjoys the power also over males that her desirability evokes, that's similar to the femme fatale movies, but not in the evil register. She's just nothing evil about your cause. She's the fact

Unknown Speaker  28:08
that that to me, I think, actually, that we've done it, although she does work, a spectacle somehow doesn't get the same for the case where exactly what it is that we're sticking with it. In fact, I think that that, that in some way, they had to make a more spectacle by putting by really making obvious to directors, there's nothing I should remember purely at a screen spoke to a female gaze, there wouldn't have for some reason, I think they added her around it to make it more to make her less powerful to produce more.

Unknown Speaker  28:47
Well, I think I think what does that mean is what I was talking about, about her seeming to escape control by the narrative. I think the narrative can't contain her and doesn't contain and that she sort of breaks out of it and takes control in the sense of you know, her herself was a historical subject stock, but she's still in a male Imagine if she's even if she is deciding to that's what Well, let me correct I think terminology is longer than paid by don't actually call it a nail. A magic bullet point actually is a female analogy. It's her imaginary ultimately, but but she has decided to internalize what I'm saying has historically been a male imagine Yes, it's female. You can't when I have papers called who was an engineer, you can't can no longer distinguish imagine is when we're at this level, because it is hers. She is choosing it. So who are we to say it's not hers, but for clarity, his purposes, and then it helps me to say that Madonna is in some sense adopted cheerfully. I would say exuberantly, I would say almost to the extended parent and maybe that's what you have in mind to the position although I want to get to turn I want to talk about Turner. There is a very different one. I really want to make sure distinction about these two women and the ways they do it. Maybe the point I'm trying to make about where I think it's complicit corrode, return is maybe not? Well, we'll be clear, if you have to

Unknown Speaker  30:09
study the directors of these videos, because it seems to me that there's, you know, we have got McDonald's measures of Madonna may have written the song but global conceptualize the video. It's way beyond up.

Unknown Speaker  30:22
Yeah, this is a tricky question, particularly videos, because as you know, the directors are often not known, you have to get around, I've tried to stay away from the publicity people, I can call these managers, because once they know I'm doing a book, it's over. You know, I mean, so it's a very tricky part of me to do this research is to actually, you know, call them and so because they're very tricky about, told you about getting a hold of MTV now, but typically, I did have interviewed a lot of directors, but they're basically not the great big directors who directly done it. So I'm trying to say the way the directors tell me this goes is that in fact, the star usually has little time to have much say in how the video is constructed. Now, and it's the record companies who are mainly making the decisions and deciding the options, they will put out an option for say, 10 directors to give them that storyboard their accounts, and then they select one. And those directors will go was selected. It was wasted time. But but it still seems to me that stars like Madonna and Tina Turner really are not a no as beck and call Madonna is not going to mix images to go out that she doesn't, you know, go with So

Unknown Speaker  31:27
nonetheless, it's not her authorship the way the song is her movie.

Unknown Speaker  31:32
The visuals, yes, it's a different level of authorship. And it's a tricky question. Nevertheless, I can construct an argue about the video doesn't make it authentic. My argument is, um, they don't say it's her intention. I can say this text speaks to me in this way. Okay, maybe it will be fairer. So put Madonna in a bracket. Because intentionality is it's a

Unknown Speaker  31:52
very aggressive question, given the laws of town I mean, you know, and I think in some ways

Unknown Speaker  32:00
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with your bad attributions. I mean, we shouldn't really get into that level because we don't know but I can say this text is a woman rock star presented in this in this way and that's really important that we thought all right now I want to now show you a male explicitly what I call a phallic imagine Okay. I want

Unknown Speaker  32:34
to show you know the romantic wonderful one the talking in your sleep in terms of passive woman, passive object of male desires sort of with the Java firewall where he walks along a row of naked or I begin naked but then they have nightmares on their screen and he says, I know what you're dreaming in your sleep you really desire me in your sleep and I couldn't control it yeah and obviously but this I'm interested in this male a man you're very familiar to what Yes, I'm calling this because it's an old one, but there are many fewer examples I get it really is a white wedding.

Unknown Speaker  33:55
Up to talk the other way. Read

Unknown Speaker  35:00
Hi Okay, let me say a word about this video. Now obviously as my argument is said verbally within the phallic register is a very different register than Madonna's in the classical way. Ristic gay. I think again, we have a question about who's exactly who's imaginary who in idol as biological male at one Shabbat is a male imaginary that satisfies his district impulses, while he has to address the female masochistic imaginary. And I think that's evident in the fans behavior in the videos is again this confusion he requires them as a prison in order to have his status his imaginary is at pains to incorporate the feminine to itself in an entirely different manner than combining patriarchy divine masculine and feminine. And I'm talking here about his his dress, I mean, the sort of feminine feminized playing with the hair and the you know, throwing gum and and particularly his guitarist in the long coat in the hair. Now, the choice of a performance as against the narrative strategy, I think is significant. That choice is always significant. In my table, this really fits the mindless category denialists disparate, really, they often are, and in contemporary ones that are on top of the charts. Now Ozzy Osbourne ever seen that one where it picks up where the girl was drawn into his show by his hearing him and his staring eyes and the mighty cool one, the reason why, yes, exactly where the Yes, yes, it has exactly these are very similar. There's a whole lot in this in this sort of mind following and I think influenced by this is a very quite an early one. A narrative usually involves shifting points of view or hierarchy of discourses, and often a struggle amongst discourses for my stream, you could say in Material Girl, there was such a kind of a struggle going on, or at least the spectator moves through a series of different identifications. And I audit that the poor directors discourse ultimately is privileged over the female one. The man wins girlfriend in store and taking control. Now, I think in this one level, yeah, the narrative exists solely in the song words in the music there, there are no cutaways to the lover being addressed. Or, you know, to any of their meetings or sometimes happens with performance tapes, the standards were to be cut away to images and come back to the stage it just remains on the stage. And the first idol narrates the story about his loss. He has lost a loved and we read a rage. But I'll get to exactly what that is about. The he dresses it in the first person sometimes addressing the Lost lover as you you called last night he says You didn't answer the phone and I walked the wall with for you baby says and other times he refers to her in the third person, she cried for more more more so forth. So the pit spectators received the rate to the spectator. He dresses us with all this weight and we are positioned actually to receive the rage he feels towards the woman who's positioned not so much as a loved one. But as possessed needed he rages about her daring to leave and and proceeds to attempt to master the spectator as he intended to master her now and I consider the punching out as a phallic gesture aimed directly at me in an attempt to master me notice also the shards of offense, always high angle very very careful with his body as the other guitarist who uses it as a classic prop right over them. So this is and then I just see backstage paraded his torso and his legs are straight and so forth. The leather pants and his wonderful chest and the cutaway the only female we have is that kind of strange character with a very strange figure. The woman playing the piano organ. She is as you notice very skimpy dress. And if you notice she also moves the body in this very slinky way. And her eyes are Swanton swans. This was extraordinary sort of image, but certainly, I mean, I sort of have sort of snake like images around certainly it's something of that that quality is not

Unknown Speaker  39:52
a sort of a classical female image at all. It's it's a sort of strange and rather disorienting image Um, so his body his body is indeed made object of our gaze. You know it is an object, it's more or less all there is to see really he's far from being a passive receiver of the gaze on the country. he relishes his position and exploit it to gain control over the camera and the spectator behind it. Now is such as body up as a powerful phallus. I think his name itself embodies his self fetishization. And he gains control over through the aggressive confrontational stance as I said, you know just doesn't have close to phobic in a way that the video is very close in on video on idle you've got a few medium shots but the whole thing was sort of under this theory I think the muse on sand here doesn't tend to go into this in this tape is such a bad quality can't see the incredible sense of of a lack of depth it's not an expressionist painting and I do think a lot of the stuff is expression in Germany especially reverberations they talk about later in the paper, but there are panels of light hectic bread, hectic flow and then all the smoke around so if you can't see anything peers are kind of confused sense of these people moving in the smoking atmosphere is clear continues going to idols sort of wait now there's a lot to say about the beat of the music I think there's a kind of hypnotic hypnotic effect I think it's particularly when when the drum beats and he beats out to us because flow of emotion rising to pictures and going down again exactly what the mood gets very soft for a minute when he says it worked well for her they 1000 miles for you Bay and then you know comes raging raging back so there's music is what the guitar is incredible, it's a whole whining, wonderful sort of solar that he doesn't. So the music is part of this whole effect and one of the problems talking about these videos is precisely it's that it's a form where all these registers are happening at once you choose one to talk about to talk about point of view and then people get interested in the music or the music on sand you have to have a way of talking we have four panels across the page and talk about the visuals. But I'm very aware of how the songs function particularly for instance in Material Girl It's It's I talked about the body of the star being an eccentric function but often the song is the song rhythm phrases flow over many times so that so that the Material Girl while she's doing a phrase of I am a Material Girl We can cut to him in the dressing room with her or hit them arriving outside and sometimes she will she brings a phrase into the appropriately mouth the phrase out and the card it's on the stage and then so the song really carries its way over the kinds of videos that are full of lots of cutting them on charge here is much more directly related because we just have the one now the next one that I want to talk about is this pre ed for days and it is this is one again where I think I think this is very interesting I'll put it put it on to maybe first because that's strategy because that's going to be worked back to

Unknown Speaker  43:14
this every time we go away that was also part of the charts for many many weeks about a year ago. Baby Save, Save save time you

Unknown Speaker  44:32
You All right it that's one one is very hard to to stop actually because it's so hypnotic I mean one of the things I wanted to talk about in videos I wanted to mention this California heroes which is where the rhythm is so insistent and so attractive that you fall into a rhythm I was talking about this with someone a minute ago and to get the words the content you are very deeply absorbed. Now this one I call readable what interests me here is that it constructs a feminine gaze and a more Mr with this this this in a certain sense is about loss obviously a loss of a female figure. And I think the appeal to her in some sense in scribes are right there in the video although you never cut to her the closest we come to an image of this last figure as the shot but I'm afraid is nearly cut off. Where could it go? It was only when he rolled across the state of falls into the arms of bands you do get close up, faced with ecstatic kind of smiling, nurturing fans as they they nurture him. It's all about the nurture without loss. If this is a good performance tape, it's cut. Actually many states performance is cut. You can see the different quality of the film. Some are brown, some are blue, some are color, so it's very state performances intercut and mix with them studios set number of male stars in this kind of romantic song appeal of Julian Lennon and so forth. Paul McCartney, all yearning now the people who I mean it seems to me the female star started this and one of the very earliest pieces of the romantic category obviously was Cyndi Lauper. We can have time, which I can't it's not to pay back too much to get you but I'm interested in the contrast really between yours evocation of the last mother heartbreak and Cyndi Lauper Cristo, which actually inscribes the murder. I mean, this is something I want to talk about where she also mixes mother love and love for the love of the man, male lover, they still kind of merge on the lovers. And certainly to her she runs out and remember that video and conjures up an image of her mother comes to chuck, then we cut to memories of being in the kitchen with a moment hug each other, then when their lover and soon they finally needed to go to the station, they stopped by the mother's house and she kisses her. And now she strikes me that those tapes that try to image the mother reserved only in a very pathetic image. It's a very pathetic working working class powerless, Mother inner. So one of the things I'm interested in one of the paradoxes, it's an argument is that a take like call yours can kind of inscribed by a very absent a much more powerful I think, given and an insistence sort of sort of Mother mothering days. I also think I mean I discuss a lot in the paper that this is coming out of you know, the use of dissolves actually techniques and editing here seems to me to evoke merging and floating and sort of predictable you know, longing and merging and mirroring and so forth. All right by its very devices now.

Unknown Speaker  49:01
All right, so I'm to have Linden singular purpose video in mind, I think it's important so the clip would be too hard to get. But I think that tape stands at the juncture the romantic pre medical video and the video that I want to get to now and this will, I'm afraid take some turning on represented by Tina Turner's private dancer and just before I get to that, because I want to talk about the difference between what I'm calling a feminist gaze and what I'm calling a female

Unknown Speaker  49:38
that sort of early feminist, maybe I could find these four emails that showed you a very recent feminist tape in the anti men actually surprising one very early ones. You may remember what I've done with some of the students not for the money, path and as much love as the bachelor field. Let me just try and find those because I got to go through it Sweet prime counting no come on very well these versions and most of these but first set up I only got one puppet live in time that she works hard for the money so terribly WK? Listen to your

Unknown Speaker  53:18
motion and never seen us do another little bit to make yeah no it's not creepy You right Go back it's been a while somebody yell or they see Pat Benatar very cool minute okay let's go back a little too late

Unknown Speaker  55:51
just so we get a memory up

Unknown Speaker  55:56
to the money in terms of the women's side everybody knows the story this one I assume she leaves she's this one she's more than narrativity no and the other one

Unknown Speaker  56:18
John was planning on to take us out of our home garden because home had been assigned this one and ended up with a prostitute and then

Unknown Speaker  56:36
this is right at the very end

Unknown Speaker  56:38
and it was very good the man was one of the prostitutes and she gets upset. Try find the pilot is going to be hard and fast forward this to the end while I talk about wind that when it gets Okay. Well now that she works hard for the money sort of strikes me as a hothead, take the belongs in white, called a socially conscious category has a clear message about women's oppression focuses on the working class women's double jeopardy of work. Single worker parent oppressed both within the home and on the job. And don't assume that speaks this video. She knows that she is a kind of hosts conducting us through her heroines typical day working two jobs doing all the housework the preset by the kids and so forth. Now it's textual strategies are classically realist, except for this present of some extra gigantically cutting being geared to the narrative in a literal manner other than than her. The images show the heroine in one appalling situation after another with very little respite. And the only mitigating aspects is to make this video from reading a totally depressing look at woman's condition is indeed some personal solidarity with a heroine who says that she addresses the problems. And then perhaps the street dogs at the end, except it's very ambiguous. Seems to me they all go on the street. It's all women in different professions. They do this this dance, but it's not very clear what what sort of any resolution has happened. I think love is a battlefield is a very similar style of tape. But I think it has a little more analysis and let at least receive the problems with the nuclear family that so her out she sort of driven to the streets, longingly thinking of her brother her brother thinks of her family is basically let her down. And then she takes action within the Dodgers that she's a character in the story against the oppressive males as you saw, but the video does. It does make a strong statement about female togetherness I think at the end was very strong, you know, solidarity but I think the one that's most carefully feminist as I said to you is the sisters that I looked we looked at the beginning. But I think about all these videos if there is a problem and it's my problem was really strategies and General, as far as a feminist strategy, and I think one could argue that they do little more, although this is something I'm not saying it's not, then give us an experience of female solidarity, solidarity for the four minutes that we watch it. And that's sort of what it does for us makes us feel good and feel something's happening. But I want to contrast all of these. Is that finished? To how? Somebody could tell you to stop? Oh, yeah. That will mean with his music as fast forward.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:36
Sorry. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:00:38
that's pretty much counseling about on my account, she's about soaking that once as zero. And when it gets to what was

Unknown Speaker  1:00:55
it minus 14,987. Five. We'll try to 75 What am I doing that about? Town, I want to come back to her other. Again, we can hardly generalize about the stars because they're, the texts really do vary enormously and grow and change. You know, Pat Benatar is just unplugging and just couldn't just find it for today cause sex as a weapon. Seems to me she's kind of moving on in a good in a good direction. However, she's also done a video recently called we belong, the most incredibly sentimental, romantic kind of beauty so that you can't generalize but this specific tag, and along the lines of not assigning anyway to personal people, that doesn't matter to private donors, it seems to me to be so much to do so much more in terms of attempting to analyze some of the specific ways that women are sexually oppressed, and ways that undermine much more overt oppression that we can see and label and get hold on and sort of make statements about the video it said in a kind of high class bordello, where the heroine who was also an unchaste the story where she was hosting this narrative that makes more sense in the summer one because she again like Pat Benatar, she's proud of it, but she is less involved and is pushing a lot of the time she's an unsavory and Alesund Bob but she's she's actually a part of what she's describing. She the video takes us on a tour of a particular kind of white male imagine

Unknown Speaker  1:02:39
that men it may be either one of

Unknown Speaker  1:02:43
these things count as the other thing is you can never rely on finding a counter it takes us on a tour of the ticket kind of white male imaginary. I think not this that dissimilar from the one that Madonna celebrates. A while race is absent is any kind of surface aspect of the video I find it very present just in her own body. And I have the sense that as a as a black woman describing this imaginary and she sees it very clearly on and you could hypothesize that it shows us the kind of male fantasies that oppress women and we see how the women are prey to these fantasies, that which shows us how they must produce whatever the man wants on command like robots or mannequins is a very beautifully choreographed video. The dances are absolutely superb. And she managed to get them to act this effective mech mechanical nurse. The art director, obviously did a terrifically Good job. So technically, the video has turned as Carol in the ratings through the song lyric, her life and the modelo. You see it in closed up and even shot and various customers Seamus gone for the different fantasies. And because again, the visual techniques, cinematic techniques of merging, one fantasies emerges into the next and everything is seen through a haze, I'm not sure how exactly to cloth wet through next, so that none is sort of very much deliberately creating an imaginary world since a dream world. Literally an imaginary instead of sort of just being an imaginary editing is done in rhythm to the music. So her points, her points are really well illustrated. She talks about, you know, very cynically about, you know, we have to do this for the money and I'll do it for the money and I'd like to visit home and a family and be able to take a vacation on that. But, you know, they want us to do this. So we do it should have her oppressed condition on her own bodies, often in the fantasies as well. So we get sort of this double articulation of her outside the fantasy is showing us other women's within her inside the fantasies. And what effect is this? I think it's so accurate because we get a sense of her as bodily ensnared in this male imaginary why psychically detached and it's that gap between the boy Have a new understanding of site captains I think it's a sort of female who's not too much

Unknown Speaker  1:05:11
I don't really

Unknown Speaker  1:05:20
needed other parts of the test No, no, that was that was that's what Sasquatch doing now show that one. That's a very different argument than that.

Unknown Speaker  1:05:57
But you said you distinguish the her

Unknown Speaker  1:06:01
her been able to detach her body from her psyche as being very female and make the distinction between feminist and male. Versus Yeah. Okay. See more female?

Unknown Speaker  1:06:17
Yes, because she exposes that gap. That's what I'm arguing against. And she also critiques the male imaginary very explicitly she positions for some reason, the other or the difference, whereas feminist types are are sort of simply celebrations or really topia in a certain sense, let me just start this as soon as this prints one is another one right? How do you see this like it's kiss yeah

Unknown Speaker  1:06:53
are one way

Unknown Speaker  1:07:23
anyway, let me let me move on. I mean, I'm really I'm nearly finished what I want to say and if we can find this we can, if not basically, finish what I want to say actually, really my point my point is that I think there's let me just say one word about other tape, which we could put on in some of her other videos like what's left up doing it or rather treat her right. But to her right yeah, with, with Adams, Bryan Adams. That's, those do seem in the sense of like Madonna's in the sense that she does explicitly sort of have shots at fragmento body she always has her legs and high heels sucking down the street, her body and her tight skirt and so forth. But it seems to me that as against Madonna I feel with Tina Turner that these strategies are and this goes together with the lyrics of course and particularly What's Love Got to do with it. Evidence have tried to take control of what the signifies that you know connote may have desire in other words to say, Okay, I'll give you the legs I'll give you the skirt. I'll give it any anything you want. But I'm going to you know costume aside I'm going to kind of use this isn't we're a weaponry of what you guys want the woman to look like and just sort of throw it away and what's love got to do with it was beautiful is she and he sort of tried to tries to say the point you're just too hard to be tried to get involved with love and she takes the women away from the elders maybe I can share that instead of thinking about well, because I don't feel the John McDonough is in meshed. In that interview. She enjoys being that objectivism or saying that Tina Turner is using it as a weapon. I don't feel to think the dawn is using it as a weapon a younger woman I mean, well, maybe not but that's

Unknown Speaker  1:09:25
after I beat her up

Unknown Speaker  1:09:32
that's how I sit

Unknown Speaker  1:09:35
around you know you want a sex object and that's why you get

Unknown Speaker  1:09:39
together with the lyrics Yes, because you like this one she's actually say. It You guys that is not easy

Unknown Speaker  1:10:22
walking through the streets though as we saw some kind of symbol of female power is definitely self worth and Donna plays into that sex is pretty doll way to this I'd say that's basically all

Unknown Speaker  1:11:27
I want to say so here it is

Unknown Speaker  1:11:36
phrase it on the one hand I'm never quite know that I feel that tutor tutor is such a great symbol and

Unknown Speaker  1:11:47
among people mentioned that first of all

Unknown Speaker  1:11:51
I think her It's like she's definitely is planning to navigate the questions where's that most stereotypical kind of 60 Year One could wear miniskirts or long legs? Oh races always up there supporting yourself. And that's also a criticism. Right? And so you think that she will on one hand, maybe there's something inherent in

Unknown Speaker  1:12:15
our age

Unknown Speaker  1:12:16
that makes that makes her able to do that without it seeming like It's like this some kind of more power and ownership behind it than what you what you associate with Madonna. But on the other hand, I really think that I can try to figure out why. I think that Madonna also does play into fetishization of itself, although a costume is still from how you're individualistic. I mean, she's not Madonna is not looking like she's gotta try to look at it's completely. So she's not like matching some kind of like feminine ideal because she's combining things that aren't like, stereotypical. So on one hand, that is that's interesting that our image that doesn't play so much into like unearthing fantasy. And on the other hand, in fact, it always seems to them, each one of the videos, there's attempts to make her be more of

Unknown Speaker  1:13:14
a receiver of the data, and she actually

Unknown Speaker  1:13:17
works. In fact, in her performances on the video is so powerful, and so self contained, that they enter to things like luring her or learning the shot to her to make her more accepting that we are also going to agree with that. What's interesting in Medina, is that if she was completely clean to nowadays, and like completely clean, he should have such a large proportion of female animals, he should be too threatened. And I think the dominant is like, you can be attractive and you're completely yourself to be in order to wait. And that's more accessible to pick something and the fact that she's got so many little gold fans, that I'm not exactly sure where to put myself but it's typically something more positive in your image than most people out there. In fact, in a rock star itself, there's the notion of spectacle, right? Really spectacle, but what does mouse there want to be looked at but they're still like hovering over the audience have spoken to continue and using different skills to is decided on exams? And I think that Madonna still have has that attitude that yes, she's pleased that it is but it's she's more so than other females like schools like you can

Unknown Speaker  1:14:48
find a choice

Unknown Speaker  1:14:49
of the whole film is back at

Unknown Speaker  1:14:59
our houses Tell me what's on the line

Unknown Speaker  1:15:07
but yet everybody knows in Madonna the way she talked to me she is that she's much stronger than me because she's not stupid kids are

Unknown Speaker  1:15:27
gonna say that women don't know I mean Maryland you know I mean that's what I got diamonds but single out again

Unknown Speaker  1:15:58
don't like Tina Turner are fishing with math and the two of them are

Unknown Speaker  1:16:09
fantastic creatures who were enjoying themselves looking at the last shot and they walked down the aisle together taken

Unknown Speaker  1:16:24
but they will also

Unknown Speaker  1:16:28
get a question why they think Madonna finishes objects

Unknown Speaker  1:16:37
no seriously

Unknown Speaker  1:16:41
that is not threatening and at the same time is much easier for like 12 year olds some other people talking about contradictory videos

Unknown Speaker  1:16:59
regarding the symbol of freedom but at the same time she's think for young women it's liberating maybe for someone but the daughters she's playing

Unknown Speaker  1:17:33
she is a Catholic school girl and she's playing hard

Unknown Speaker  1:17:41
like a virgin? Trying on that on that paradox. So there's somebody

Unknown Speaker  1:17:56
who's really interested because she doesn't have the typical

Unknown Speaker  1:18:03
made that into account. They didn't like recording that

Unknown Speaker  1:18:07
they were talking about moving

Unknown Speaker  1:18:16
around and save your life economy.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:24
That was good.

Unknown Speaker  1:18:29
Well, again, it depends how you would define define feminists? difficult difficult work. Okay. So that is in some sense, free. I think there's what we might all agree that not be bound by the role model body and style of dress. Yeah, I think is no, I think that is true that she doesn't look that good. I was just

Unknown Speaker  1:18:52
wondering if we can come across this really strange contradiction of the heavy metal queen from Canada and her videos her

Unknown Speaker  1:19:00
page and I forget her are not an embody. Or you haven't they don't come on into the No, no, that probably two times that they're too threatening. Yeah, they

Unknown Speaker  1:19:11
don't have any metal to take. Yeah. But at the same time takes on the male gaze they face she wears a leotard, and they shoot the camera, this way through her and she's, you know, being chased by a man and she's clearly victim but then has a heavy metal point. She's also this very powerful and sadistic woman. It's, you know, it's

Unknown Speaker  1:19:34
one of the strange and

Unknown Speaker  1:19:37
it's extremely contradictory.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:42
And one of the things I'm dealing with in the book, you know, which is just a little tiny part of the book I just finish up is the whole issue of androgyny. I mean, this there are various kinds to That's not a word that that either connotes anything now sinful, and I have very stages and types been dragged in from Annie Lennox and Boy George and Duran Duran and Michael Jackson is kind of mild and dragging and judging you by the way, whether mild or heavy as it were, is it usually male? It Annie Lennox is one of the few female and this queen sounds like another unusual, male, female, who's who's really trying to combine kind of golf balls or play with? I mean, I think I think what's happening is a lot of people are indeed and why think, again, is a post modernists form and why the posters are kind of undecidable often about is it this or is it bad is it isn't, you know, often kids both Well, it really can't be done yet somehow it is and the people are the way the videos are constructed or so, subconsciously subconscious. So tremendously aware of the whole history of imaging as it were, and various types that they are parroting they are doing they are they are really refusing to take up a position primarily which which debate and so we can have these debates. It's very, very hard to read these correctly or to say, you know, prove you're right. Somebody just watch

Unknown Speaker  1:21:10
TV and I have I have a question about the feminist video.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:14
A few examples examples.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:18
It seems to me that the spectator is being constructed to intervene has very little to do with a strong female person, the institution of MPD detects not either Derek and I were just wanting to protect it in a trend in terms of these videos coming up as to what they're surrounded by.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:36
Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good question because God was in is about the flow now these are all highly selected and picked out over a long flow love is about to go came on of course, because it got top of the charts though regularly while it was tough, it's now virtually absent although they couldn't have classic revival. So it's kind of a once in a while, she's talking when he was very rarely on it really. Even when you know when I taped it it was it was very difficult to find very occasionally revert and once in the last two years say it's come on back. Okay, so And Annie Lennox one actually seems to have gone off it was on me so shortly recently Yeah, November I think it came out if one good one it was on the English trucks first by the way, by the way, the British often pick up I mean, we follow the British a lot. And Whitney Houston was much earlier in England you don't start it I give you the British charges well, as they learn Was it her parallel so often that we that'll pick up the tape for America but then if it's not really fitting the norm to play, it goes off right? Because it was really very rare cancer, they're isolated incidences sort of surrounded by Reiki in some way little moments or what I was talking about earlier was the inability of the machine as support to control or position so occasionally because of other things like England making promoting it or it's a good record company. They will proton is basically the record companies that decide I was talking to black rock star book of your doctor your article the other day he had this amazing story to tell about the difficulty of being a black and stone wants to make it more he has decided to do and it's doing interesting to see if he'll make it to MPB is going by England he said I'm going to go make myself and England blacks a much more it's much easier to get ahead as a black on the British charge it's not the kind of racism prejudice here he said once I get and then once I get a good record company in England to check my records available to bring it in actually has gotten one of the biggest ones close. But now I'm waiting to see if indeed his strategy will will work and he was the one to pick you up in England. You know records have been is here with you at once they pick you up MTV, you know will pick you up. So yes, it is this very strange blog where most positions are I think you're right or very detrimental to women or not, not beneficial. And then right occasionally, these these pieces are here which I can artificially isolate and give you a very misimpression by my

Unknown Speaker  1:24:15
teacher. Cyclists are also other people who think we're

Unknown Speaker  1:24:22
black I have noticed a trend that more more or less, less clearly, token cases are huge stoplights are getting played on MTV now you will see people like some of the other Jackson's

Unknown Speaker  1:24:36
on

Unknown Speaker  1:24:42
yes

Unknown Speaker  1:24:48
I haven't seen the newest one. No, I've seen I've seen the one where she's all dolls. You know, they kind of help phone numbers in the video

Unknown Speaker  1:25:07
it gets to the screen.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:10
And then her mouth opens the car. And then at the end it's just so weird. Seems like

Unknown Speaker  1:25:17
she breaks.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:18
One of the other ones you makes us happy to a robot. Yes pretty pretty spot. Yeah, yeah, it sounds very much in her mind

Unknown Speaker  1:25:32
so, to me the imagery

Unknown Speaker  1:25:34
jive with what the music so

Unknown Speaker  1:25:42
the worst stereotypes of black women.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:46
I never know whether it's very bright places incredibly strong.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:58
I think. I mean, it's fascinating. i It's

Unknown Speaker  1:26:00
scary.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:03
To bring up something but interview that I think is really, really important to its influence. And that is that I think it's just about the media, where you have mouse representatives, where there are instances not as pure as for females, but there are males acting spectacle purely on their attractiveness for the pleasure to do and I think that's really important. Oh, well, for instance, there's dads that have become completely driven off to the famous on like the strength of the pitches. Like haha, Taran tarantulas Sexton I mean, they're really

Unknown Speaker  1:26:46
that's an old story, right? It's an old story, back to the call, you know, follows her way back. story about female fans. were rock stars. As much as

Unknown Speaker  1:27:03
you know, if they're beautiful women will make it better, worse, winning stars. I've always known that attractive men rarely overstate. There's no, that's also equally important. It's also becoming a changing force on a date on lowboys images of themselves. Now, they're also starting to worry about other women and I find that like, extremely positive. I really do.

Unknown Speaker  1:27:30
I mean, that's a big question also with the movies, whether simply reversing things and simply having men object to the gays and objectification you know, I think I think there is a step and step forward in that but that doesn't seem to me at all an answer I mean, we're talking about exploitation of the human body male or female

Unknown Speaker  1:27:55
oppressive all these years because women haven't had as much access to the male news you know, having any voice and and so that's what we're pressing because actually desiring someone just based on their parents I think is communicated to us you know, it's fine to be excited by someone just want to they want to know regardless of your personality. The only reason it's been requested this because it's only happened to

Unknown Speaker  1:28:29
explain a lot of these trends really. To justify right, but still I don't think objective versus subjective. But I think it's more significant. The fact that they can be objectified as Robert Redford is and being affected by that macho male

Unknown Speaker  1:29:05
object, if there won't be a physical object, you know, then they can't be romantic or they can't be like more feminine to make themselves you know, we're not back here, but we would like the arguments and carry on kids and blonde guys

Unknown Speaker  1:29:36
are idolized, like young. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:29:42
I think it's a very complicated issue. So you know, that we're on to I mean, what I would say about the whole thing about the way we're defining sexuality, new, you're calling healthy for me. It's all you know, patriarchal. And that's why I say I'm not sure that we have One that much if we simply accept these forms of when you say it's human, you see, it's human within a particular kind of patriarchal society we can. And that's a big question, if, you know, I understand that it's not decidable because we can't imagine. And we do and I can't live in another society to see what other kinds of human sort of erotism might might be discovered. And so we are stuck with the feminine, I'm just very wary of going with it to say it's fine. Anything goes the fact that men are now you know, pinches there with this incredible, you know, body parade is fine. You see, I'm not I'm not I don't like the pawns. I don't like the trappings of a lot of this form of racism. As I said, a lot of it. I hate the sadism. A lot of it reminds me of German expressionism. And it reminds me of proto fascist things, these things have to be said the caller was talking about the politics of representation. And we should not forget the iconography that prints particularly that 1999 video is Nazism. I mean, I'm, you see, I mean, I'm much older than you got. I mean, this is not necessarily in your immediate iconographic terrain, it's very much in line and gone, left at the very beginning of the war, I went through the war, this is iconography I live with so I believe I'm not comfortable with simply let it all out. And whatever kinds of sexuality emerges from the pot, and that males are parading and so forth, and objects, state

Unknown Speaker  1:31:41
politics,

Unknown Speaker  1:31:42
the reason I think it's fine, is that I think you've got to change, the culture is gonna change somehow, right? Other standards of attractiveness is down for everybody, and there'll be a square anymore, when they go up. To five, it's completely oppressive for women that there's this, like, total definitions throughout the era constantly changing and what's supposed to be addressed. And that's been impressive, right? Women get used disorders, they're still left out, they become interchangeable. I mean, there's all kinds of political levels, whereas men have always been outside that economy,

Unknown Speaker  1:32:15
right. wants to talk,

Unknown Speaker  1:32:27
I just think that once everybody is oppressed by the same standard becomes less pressure. Because then everybody wants to more defined themselves, once a male realizes how aggressive it is to have to meet particular ideal, he'll use who will lower ultimate standard. I mean, I think when everybody's a personal decision, can continue. Supporting the body.

Unknown Speaker  1:32:57
And just because the standard entails it, just because

Unknown Speaker  1:33:02
men's attractiveness is

Unknown Speaker  1:33:04
more important.

Unknown Speaker  1:33:06
I don't think it's utilizing

Unknown Speaker  1:33:09
tragic effects.

Unknown Speaker  1:33:13
Yeah, I mean, I think the point is exactly what you were saying that, that, in fact, it's not a situation. I mean, when when we're all kind of been objectified equally, and in the context of a patriarchal society in the context of a society dominated by the male gaze, men's sexuality is organized through man's mental understanding the male sexuality, and not through a female expression of sexuality, so that it's not a kind of equal bringing all down, and it's still in the context of patriarchy. And when you said, you know, fits right into that, that the idea that the men needs to be the kind of, you know, set sexualization of them, in the context of these happens so much to the feminization. And then, in fact, in order to objectify men as sexual objects, they need to be made like women, which is saying, which is not saying that we're all being brought down equally, which is, which is in fact saying that in order to bring down and objectify for the other day to be a woman, you gotta be otherwise.

Unknown Speaker  1:34:11
How would you then deal with the phenomenon of it? The box at all