Unknown Speaker  00:02
If you are able to walk away, then you may have some advantage

Unknown Speaker  00:10
as far as

Unknown Speaker  00:13
as far as many other woman's so one of the things that I'm sure it's families, man woman's right not go so fast. He's got importance in the university, also a moment that reached a point and very yellows of what they reach. And they used to close the door. On the other one, on the other way around, but this is not the thing, conscious countries, because it has been that you want to cultivate this mouthpiece you have. And sometimes you forget that if you share your piece with another, you're going to have not two pieces, but this way, the politics you are not better than the other people. So what happened is that in um, now I'm gonna explain now where it's insurance and what happened in the center, mainly because the pay of the appraiser is not so strong. The I think they are about 80 women, they have imposed, maybe because the camera of the Senate in Spain has not said yet dynamic power, as it has the Congress and the Congress to tell him that we aren't young working with, let's say if he were seven or eight working very close together. But we were not able to bring up to us to the some of them, no problem. One thing in spite of agree something very interesting also to note that there is a big solidarity between women inside the Congress, even if we are not of the same political group. This is quite interesting, for instance, to tell the truth, and yes, private, women's from parties more to the right than we are. And, for instance, one of them on the very right size at the very right has to notice from home, we they have three women's accomplishment and one was women. But until now because she came was weak, because one of the men, one of the men came to the Iranian community, you understand, he came as a ministry that you worked on together and became a woman and give a woman who made this, okay, but with two of them is two of them. For instance, one of them is a woman, the party is set to vote against the boss. And she was feeling very bad. Because what happened to a woman is that the real experience, one thing is when they tell you the thing, though, there will be a muddy find lots of things that woman has been, this is a real mystery. She's married to a man who has a correspondent in the United States. And that was, he was very important to make a movie. So he's the boss. And he married, you understand? So she was able to vote against the boss because he's his horse history. And he that he didn't come to the parliament. Another thing, but she was very pressed because of the party. And honestly, when we decide to vote, the other one, the other one, sit on a cushion say yes. Because my thought is well, you know, I'm telling you that because in some things, in some things, I want to say the meeting an exception, I don't know, we don't we don't have more room on the right and who know who the other ones are like that. But to tell you the tool, is that to work with that woman is not typical. And often, often, we cover it together in a sense of woman's right. And we've probably seen with one of them I have remember of the what we call the international parliamentarian, and we'll have came together and we won silence you will have had part of our intervention to say this because it's very easy to take these two because I can say because you understand and we make a little bit of logistics. Not very much because really when we're not very experienced yet, but we want to get a certain

Unknown Speaker  04:59
level The reason why was Why am

Unknown Speaker  05:02
I working in New York State Legislature?

Unknown Speaker  05:06
I must say that the politicians, they are not at all together, they do not have an agenda. And the same thing is happening and it's happening. The prices we are interested in this issue they have to vote. Otherwise forget Nicholson Republicans.

Unknown Speaker  05:20
But they do some things. For instance, I know Mrs. Burke's. She's from the south. He's from New Orleans. And I have visited her in Washington to in the office and stuff. And then they have a newspaper and they made newspaper with some Congresswoman maybe knows the person that's assembled, they do see these together. Of course, there is.

Unknown Speaker  05:50
A second, I guess, we've just got my, the number of us here who actually written books about pain and sorrow. And we know Mary's work very well. And a question is, I'm interested in the way you the historical picture you gave, because we're very familiar with the other 14 books of Lydia Falcone and the feminist party. And I wonder if you would mention that. And also, the books that we read over the years were muddy over your cup minute. In other words, your median and even even combo a monkey had I mean, there are so many women who did do those original groundbreaking books. And I wondered if you would just focus on history and history because it seems that these women were doing interdisciplinary work and during the grotesque year after year for the last 20 years and it seems the names you mentioned I'm I'm not familiar with involved maybe databases or lists, those names Pilar she's usage she didn't publish. But I'm wondering about just mentioning the work of somebody like it can be a whole nother.

Unknown Speaker  07:04
feature of being she maybe doesn't lie to me.

Unknown Speaker  07:08
And Maria Hussein again, something like windy Casio feminist, which you can get those over two, three years of the only Oregon publishing incredible feminist material, I just wondered that, yes.

Unknown Speaker  07:21
I told you something, I'm gonna become a feminist. Because maybe there's something that you are in disagreement with something and one day, you find somebody explains, you know, what happens to you? And I'll tell you, I killed them when I was reading a book. And one day I find not so much at all. I'm saying what I'm feeling. And it's true. I mean, even if now by now, I don't I am not. I don't agree. As much as we get Hong Kong of the development she has made. I myself by my own eyes for me that I don't have to be. And that's very single

Unknown Speaker  08:06
touch. Yeah, absolutely. I guys wondered how you could 20 years ago, the only voice the only person writing and writing on a level, which was before? Before many the any of the French feminists, as the poor with the American feminist not even knowing about them. And the only theoretician I think the unfortunate thing for Spain, is that the works are translated into English. So therefore, the French feminists have all the

Unknown Speaker  08:34
working men except in Spain, who in the public

Unknown Speaker  08:37
problem is that there are a long, long, long list of works that, you know, I could spend the evening talking about, but um, but they have not been published. So the feeling I get from Spain, is that where the English speaking audience is concerned that there is probably much more knowledge about what's been happening in Italy or France to what's been happening in Spain. Is there a woman's publishing? There is a woman's publishing company that is surviving with difficulty, but has, for example, published recuperated older texts, you know, and republish them. Yes, indeed. And, in fact, I had a quote, but obviously, you always think out more and actually, you know, switch around when you're talking. But what I was going to say is that, although we haven't had professional historians like Mary beard, as you would have had in the United States, we did have people like Maria campo langfitt, like Madonna or radiokop man who dealt with historical issues at a time when nobody else was doing them, and also to a large degree in the 1960s and early 70s. outside the university, were dealing with these issues and to a very large degree did have to open up this long process of recalibrating our collective memory of getting out of the amnesia that everybody had gone through, at least openly and publicly, with respect to women. And also, obviously, with respect to the whole political situation prior to the Franco regime. Then within the actual I mean, I was dealing with woman studies, women's history within if you like, the university field, what I could say is not only just doing it also as like you mentioned, but, for example, what's very important as well, although it hasn't had probably the constancy, the continuation is that there are there's one particular Center for Feminist documentation that held this wonderful exhibition in Madrid on women and work so that there has been both inside and outside the university, you know, different initiatives have been going on, but probably where actual research is concerned, that came on more within University circles within since the mid 70s, the period I've been dealing with, okay, so Well, of course, another matter of an issue will be to do with the development of actually present day feminism theory on feminism, which would be what the kind of thing that you focus on, and many, many others have been, you know, talking about discussing and the whole development of the actual feminist movement. In Spain, there is a book by Umberto Marina, which might be useful, which is a history of the development of the feminist movement in Spain from the mid 70s, which you know, it has not been translated either, but would give you an idea of the actual development of the movement and the kinds of people involved in populations, the issues where

Unknown Speaker  11:55
all of the areas that you're calling historiography, interests me, because since I worked on, on Spanish history, and wrote on a figure that I consider to be a, well, what we, we would say here, the for mother. And since you're talking about the public school, the focus on the public sphere, I will uncomment the universe. And we died in 1932. And who was one of the first people to do a survey on divorce, who struggled for women's rights, who wrote about women's topics. But what my concern has been in still trying to pursue the threads that I feel I haven't been able to, to get out about her, or areas around what I know to have been progressive women's activity prior to Frankl. But even given the context of today's more progressive situation, and of course, many of these women are very old, but let's I was doing my investigations and in the 70s, mid 70s was still not able to open up to give me their connection to their progressive past, and they were not doing that. And what I see is that many of them have gotten lost. And so I'm concerned that for example, I, as I say, I think that she is a thread that really requires a lot more study, since she actually has a book that analyzes the social situation of women in the world that she published. I'm always repeating this about waiting for Simone de Beauvoir, and, and yes, of course, we can say more and more or over and over that it's the problem of Spanish and the English speaking public, not knowing Spanish, etc. Nevertheless, what I what I also find, however, is that there is a certain amount of interest on the part of those who are doing research into feminism in Spain on Spaniards who are doing that, but who somehow haven't made those connections. I know there's one or one master's thesis perhaps or one, you know, that has gotten interested in her, but that there was a whole area of women around her in the Elysium club, for example, in Madrid that seems to be on top she was taking 6992 and all around that area. She talks about the various kinds of feminism's the sort of religious feminism she talks about and the public feminism and, and the sort of liberal feminism and she's done offensive analysis. But so around her ethic and women with it later because she died, medium Young, who lived after the Civil War, and that were still alive in the 70s. Were not as unfortunately for me forthcoming, but I know that there are there are certain things that still exist that it seems to me would be a very fruitful way to go into that and I don't know you know, are there people in the in the universities that aren't there perhaps.

Unknown Speaker  14:59
Just be In a recent dissertation on the development of the rise of feminism in Spain, which has quite an important chapter on becoming the Buddha was by contrast Aguada, which is the boat vote with both voice and vote of women, it's been published by courier. So there are people working in and around that, but there are, you know, that's virgin territory to a large degree. And also, I mean, what I didn't mention is the enormous difficulties we have in dealing with any kind of women's history, contemporary women's history in Spain, because of the sources, the utter total desertion, that totally disappear. You know, anything to do with issues in the 30s are very difficult to get your hands on, you know, for example, whole blocks of records of the different ministries have totally disappeared, they are very dispersed, you may find them in what had been the police archives in Salamanca, they may be in Amsterdam, and there's absolutely no guarantee that you can build up a full record. So it's extremely, it's much more easy and much easier. From I think, a British us even French or Italian history to reconstruct, because you actually have data to work on, part of our major work is being detected and actually trying to locate things. And also, the difficulty you mentioned, is major. And if you were trying to work in the early 70s, the reticence to speak about any issue because of the political fear, which indeed, in fact, has continued quite a lot. Nowadays, there is a general, it's not that easy to go up. If you want to speak to people who are not major political figures, but want to speak to ordinary people, it's very difficult to link up connect and have been willing to talk to you. So that one means are very important degree of networking. And one, I mean, not I don't know, this in Madrid for verbose, and then late 20s. And early 30s is concerned Well, yes, there is a thesis being written on Madrid, women in Madrid, for the 1920s is a dissertation PhD dissertation, which is, you know, being written up. And where the city war period is concerned, there is an important oral history project going on, as well, as there is in Barcelona, there has been this attempt to reach a maximum amount of women and to you know, develop or history sources. Now, this has been going on, but of course, you know, in the center in Barcelona, we have about what about 6060 oral histories already done their life, his life history, but the problem is financing. I mean, the center in Barcelona does not have a budget. So every single initiative has to, you've got to go and beg and scrounge, etc, etc, for some money to be able to carry out initiatives, and that is all over. Now, the government does not provide the money, it's, well, not normally private money, because that's quite a different situation. From here in the sense that there is not the custom of private funding that you do get here, we don't have our Ford Foundation, or our Rockefeller Foundation, the law has just changed very recently, just in the past few months, so we would hope at some stage to be able to avail. So in fact, a lot of funding has come via University, via Institute, public institutions via the municipality via the Institute for Women in Madrid, etc, etc. But these are, you know, it's what is extremely difficult to do is to plan things ahead. So it has to aim to have these ongoing projects. And the problem here is that time is running out. These people are now in 70s, late 70s, of course, they only have a certain amount. And then actually the difficulty is working also with memory of older people, again, is quite problematic. But what we need is and that is one of the reasons why one of our first task was the development of this bibliography, because we found amazing things, which reflects the actual situation of the libraries and they're functioning, because they're badly catalogued. So for example, under the term military, we found over 60 References dealing with women. So, you know, it's it's very, very, the whole the general research situation presents major difficulties, which historian or sociologists would not probably have in this country, as far as my knowledge is, so, there are people working on this quite definitely and more so, all the time. So, it is to be hoped that you know, that we will eventually come up with a fairly good picture, but the picture will always be incomplete, because of this, you know, tremendous problem of sources. The

Unknown Speaker  19:55
only problem I see is that we are now in the borrow, to lose, and the opportunity not to look for paper and have your loss. But to make a little bit of history. I mean, the people you want, I have this history, you could just read the news, if you don't have the papers, just talk to the people. And you know, we are on the border of people he's getting he's dying. Now they all started dying on one of that. And I tell you, one has one experience, to kind of tie now with by the way of investigation. Right now, this is one year ago what happened, which was to assume you have potentially one gal for why some girls for the first time wanted to become a minister. And the result of that it was of the mind didn't want to contract them. Because you know, there's a strong tradition about trade unions. And especially, because the relation labor relation in the in the minors, etc, is that if you are a son of a minor, you are a better opportunity to to get especially the minor details, because of the work in the minor. So to put up girls in this, you know, the men's were against, and there was a very next thing. And one of the reasons they said that he said they had never a woman working in these appear in the newspaper. And in 15 days, appeared a woman that now it's a before. And as you said, during the war, I was working in the mind. And I was not the only one.

Unknown Speaker  21:37
We're one of the stories that this woman has written about talks about the description of women and children. So

Unknown Speaker  21:44
how can we I mean, we are going to forget even the reality, if we don't find a way to reproduce our history, especially in this period, or even if it is from the way of holidays. And really, it's very, it's a very pity, because are the opportunities just closing now because people didn't carry on.

Unknown Speaker  22:04
So again, we need, you know, more resources and more funding so as to be able to do so.

Unknown Speaker  22:14
And it's related to the issue that I'm brought up about this country being the center of being the small countries out there not being able to do anything. Well, I think that's that's true. I mean, I couldn't agree more. But but at the same time, I think there's more conservative candidates. And I, I thought some of us thought that the Spain had a historic opportunity last week to vote against the military blocks. And if we lost I, I would like to ask, as a politician as a member of a party that was spending, too, and also to marry as a feminist in academia, whether there is a feminist position or otherwise, and what is your own view?

Unknown Speaker  23:17
Well, this is something that has caused me even become a little ill is the only time in my life that I geek in politics, something that was against my heart, and come to something not against my mind. Because if it had been in my mind, I wouldn't have not both I made the company. I will tell you something, you rarely handle the numbers. And if you really have the things on you, you should realize at least that was what I was convinced. The difficulties of saying no to the refund this one first thing. The first thing is that this referendum has upset the whole country. That's the first thing, because the ones that were against we may campaign to get in. But to remind Nate, in the ones that wanted to be NATO, what but not only politics was finitary, they may come into the wrong, you understand. So the whole country has become a little a little like that. And I am telling you, this is true. And because of that, I mean the life. I'm going to strike very quickly. We were in NATO. Firstly, we are in NATO already since four years. We are with five years. We are moving NATO on what we say the military orbital, NATO, but yes in the political order. And the referendum was to decide if we keep in the political part of the name or if we go out of darkness That's the reference, usually right, my country was saying that it was not enough to be in the political term made, and that we should get just full time and get all through the military. And once for our left, let's say lead communism, and also the feeling of some of the people of the Socialist Party thing, that we should go out also of their political. This has been really a very strange referendum. Because to tell you the truth, is is tasked to tell the truth. We thought that this referendum was going to be when we the birds have the right to understand. So lots of people that bought socialist, who know you understand because the hallway was wanting to say, Yes, that's what happened in the referendum. It's quite complicated. You I think your referendum is I mean, we had the compromise. I'm just telling the truth. I mean, we had a compromise, to make a referendum. In as far as we are in government, we're having seen the difficulties to go out of the political aisle, the bullet. So as we had to compromise, our government, our government say, well, we make the referenda, and they come, the ones that are in favor, and only to say, yes. And on the left, so I'm not going to say yes, in some of them, but the result is going to win for the good happened is not the right beside to make company gains, because they realize the only way to make an informed position was to God now. So we had to make what we say. We thought that we should prefer not to have to make the campaign and yes, I will have voted yes. Because I you know, I am going to spare you some of the reasons, but not to be on the street with that thing that just make us sick. Especially makes me sick. Well, we as a woman, and as a family nurse, we had we were assuming stop the time really, it was really, I had to go to the hospital, I tell them the truth, the only time on my life, because it was so against my films, is the only reason I'm so what happening is well, I'm going to just to tell you something. From the 1985 scenes, we came in saying that inside the scenes we were getting inside the common market. And we got 3000 millions dollars investment for investing in my country, we raise $3

Unknown Speaker  27:59
million in 1985. Alaska multinational is coming in, and a lot of investment from you know, from from foreign money from this investment. And the same is American money. I mean, not not, especially from the United States, but it's from the United States and from, you know, the multi nations that we had some plans to industrialize the new technology, at least for at new industries coming down to Spain to sit down, and you know, just to never work there. And one of the things it is maybe one of the small reasons, right, one of the things that we were very afraid of the international work if we leave NATO and this international economic bloc, what the truth, the problem Mike did like Kuba that they say they don't know. It's a problem of you know, just not to invest so much in our country, and to stop the investment and the things. And this thing, and this thing, we were afraid not as much as the United States because, you know, this campaign has also had the point of view very, very mixed up a lot the content was the USA want to test the USA, I don't really think they don't mind so much because we have a lot of trade with the United States. If we leave the NATO. What that means is that our bases in Spain are only going to be used for the Americans. This is what it means the Germans and the French and Italian they are not going to use them. But you the Americans will have a bill material to agreement that finished in 1988. So to tell you the truth, we found a mean now with a socialist found that you should we can really keep outside of the military, if we can really keep out of nuclear design the territory once we were already in the political part of the NATO once we were in because we had to decide to go or not, I mean, the decision was not to burning, but once we were in, the best thing was not to go well now, not to suffer the consequences. And also, if we get in NATO to try to negotiate another sort of electoral field with the United States, it's more than one because so we are already with the you know, with the European countries. I think this is one of the reasons reasonably if you think about I mean, as far as we thought about we think that the best thing but I agree with you that what sometimes we want to do is to say I'm going to send out to see what happened to see what happened maybe maybe as more countries can say no, I wonder see I said no many is going to pay off so I don't know what will happen I will happen sometimes it's easier for me but I'll say another point especially saying no, because what it says you already you have already done the bad reputation on that sense. And you must demonstrate you are a good boy. If you are modeling in the right you can maybe do something like they are doing now from seen and I've seen South America and even for this could be done for me for my child something will explode in the world well it's another problem because they don't have money to go back but anyway I'm here to make a stand because we have been always out we have been in here graphically in Iraq but we have not had the performance as the we have not lived the same history as Iran in the in the recent years as far as we were not in the first in the second war. We were not and so it seems we were It seems we were now told in the last voice kids because it was not really so but it seems we played another thing and we are in the in the continent of Europe and we don't feel the pressure of the east as far east and Germany fields so that thing will make very difficult for the Spanish to find the necessity to be in the labor but I think I told you well they really believe

Unknown Speaker  32:43
it You underestimate the impact of that in Spain beyond the political one that's why Germany is concerned about the health NATO is actually one of the strongest

Unknown Speaker  33:15
kala masala manages down press Yolanda tanto por que por que ages and read the local

Unknown Speaker  33:21
CCNA problem as

Unknown Speaker  33:26
you may have commenting on your comments. So

Unknown Speaker  33:43
go ahead and do that you

Unknown Speaker  33:48
can't you have to talk loud as you are talking quietly.

Unknown Speaker  33:51
There is only one I too

Unknown Speaker  34:00
am very interested in history of academia. I'm interested though in what you were saying about recovering history in the 1930s. And you were speaking of it in terms of problems of recovery and perhaps publishing it or making it accessible. I'm interested in asking you both as feminists though how would you project that experience into the contemporary

Unknown Speaker  34:42
realities my

Unknown Speaker  34:43
question on a woman's movements that started out in such a fresh beginning. And again, I think that the United States keeps coming, coming right out from under a period of Franco and having such a high point. So I think history is not in the past or had already had the right to worse than is taken away, or we have the right. abortion. But that I think that maybe there was some idea that women who participated in the 1930s were trying to change social relations, something different in relations with family, at work, etc.

Unknown Speaker  35:47
How do you protect that today?

Unknown Speaker  35:52
That was also like not just as a center that some people but ongoing consult and sign that your failure compared to get away? What about Portsmouth? Does that have any influence on this? I frankly, feel, in many ways what women were able to do in Portugal.

Unknown Speaker  36:32
They had a very short time on the historical stage. But they presented to the world that got the Portuguese letters and felt like that was a very creative sponsor. The whole idea of a nonparty is not

Unknown Speaker  36:55
going that route of political parties to try to create a relationship with a professional working class woman that was not hierarchical loneliness is very, very organic, and it's a common person before you started. She said, It was internal. And I think, you know, I would like to talk less about history is

Unknown Speaker  37:34
just a very small thing to say. I don't I don't know. And don't don't take important to the European model man, anti nuclear, but no country in Europe. It's against NATO. There is not a movement against NATO. What happened is it's a movement against nuclearization of the territory. And we don't have weapons in our approach. I told you, and our friend who was not too happy. What I'm trying to say is that the difference is that in European harmony in all this concentration, they may, they may, not because they want to meet them, but they don't want to have nuclear weapons in the church. I am sure they will very glad to be at least as our condition allowed. Because we don't have nuclear weapons and the condition not to go on was not too heavy. And what we hope I tell you, the choices that we have is that one day we lose elections, that there is not going to be possible to theorize the territory if there why doesn't make another referendum to change that decision. And this is the hobby.

Unknown Speaker  38:54
Right? I think it's very important for, for us to know, what the collective historical experience of women was. And obviously, that affects our present day vision of it as well. But first of all, I think that in Spain, we have, as historians are tasked to pursue, which is to develop projects of research to get to know about what actually happened, and the more we do so, I think what we are finding is that the victimization, interpretation of women no longer quite fits in. I mean, if you take the situation of an ongoing patriarchal discourse on women based on domesticity based on the cult of motherhood based on the separation of the spheres, and, again, based not just on secular argument But the pervasive institution of the Catholic Church, the situation from which one begins to contemplate women in the past is, I think, a very negative one, because this has been the general projection given on the situation of women. Now, when we begin to do discover somewhat more about the actual situation of women in the ongoing historical process in Spain, we discover that, and I think that is important, because it is a discovery to a large degree, in the sense that there wasn't a sensitivity on these issues, that women have been agents of change, that women have not just been the marionettes in the hands of the Catholic Church, that the image of women the topic presented, but it's a constant topic presented of Spanish women as being politically conservative, and also very religiously constrained, begins to be broken down. So if you discover that in 1835, the women in Barcelona were out on the streets building up barricades, and forbidden to take to actually go out onto the street by the Civil gov, who said that if they would do so that will be considered as public women, prostitutes, I think we're getting very interesting information, which does show that women get involved in collective action in social conflicts, but perhaps not exactly on the same issues and with the same motivation, or in the same way, as men knows. And I think that has direct implication to an understanding of the present day situation of women. In other words, what we find the more we delve into women's collective historical experience in Spain, is that there were actors that were present, and they were not necessarily our conservative political force. At times there were. But the question is, why? And how, and for what reasons, not because there are these non thinking robots, but probably probably are perhaps because the left did not correspond to their necessities. In other words, for me the issues, the important thing is not the data, but we need the empirical data. Otherwise, we're doing History fiction, not historical analysis. But what I think are important and relevant for the present day are the questions we ask of the past, which are also questions we ask about the present. So that if you analyze, for example, the period of the Civil War, which is also at least for some sectors within Spanish society, a period of social transformation and social change, if you also ask yourself, what does that imply with respect to Khatri aka structures, if you develop a gender analysis, and want to find out whether that actually also meant a redefinition of male female relations? I think you are applying a kind of analysis to the past, which is very relevant also to the present, apart from the fact that I think the actual discovery that we have a past and an ongoing past and not just a negative past is very important.

Unknown Speaker  43:47
Given, of course, the different political trajectory in Spain vote there was this attempt to blackout that that does not mean to say that there was a total amnesia, but figures like karma and the Virgos or others, for the younger generations, were not necessarily well known. For those who had lived those times. Yes, they were, they might have been home figures, but there was not necessarily a public projection off or take the issue you mentioned of abortion, the fact that we can analyze the legalization of abortion in 1936 in Catalonia, although to my understanding, it was a failure. I think we have to understand why these issues of reproductive rights were solved, developed in that way at that particular time, and also the very fact that the rate the legislation on abortion in 1936 was more advanced than the present day. Legislation is also obviously something that's totally irrelevant. If you do maybe with other issues, probably the immediacy of the relevancy ah, may not be so obvious. I mean, if you're dealing with the analysis of women in the conference in the medieval ages, maybe the message isn't so direct. But I think the important thing is how you present and try and do with your historical matters. So I don't think it's just simply a question of, you know, taking the dust off something that anyway, if it stayed in the archive, you know, it wouldn't matter anyway. Maybe that's because, I mean, I spent half my life my whole life actually doing it. So I would like to think that wasn't so. And the other issue you brought up about Portugal? What, to my understanding? Again, I don't know whether Anna would agree with me or not. But I think that we have been more directly influenced by books on American or even Italian French experience. I haven't noticed, at least in Catalonia, this direct impact of the Portuguese experience, there was obviously a very direct political impact when we had the revolution of the carnations, but the actual gender specific paucity of that, and the development of the feminist Portuguese movement, we did have the publication of the one or two books, but I think it was very incidental to my mind, the major influences on the development of feminist thought in Spain don't derive from Portugal, I think we, you know, really don't know very much about Portugal, I would say we're more aware of

Unknown Speaker  46:31
Yeah, Tom, during the revolution,

Unknown Speaker  46:33
call the three Marie yesterday. Another statement? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  46:36
yes. That's the main book we read. I agree with

Unknown Speaker  46:42
I mean, we know who Betty Friedan is, and we know who's seen on the worldwide, these have been the major ones not and it's odd, really, again, the connections, you know, geographically speaking, don't necessarily mean there's this this cultural, immediate cultural transmission. For example, in the field of history, we're probably more aware of what's going on in Italy than in France, you know, which is again quite odd, although this is being slowly come over, you know, but uh, maybe I

Unknown Speaker  47:09
wanted to do something about what to say about abortion. Politician. Because I had written about all the all the legislation about putting it all at I have a small board we literally combined. So as a historian, also, I have done and one of the two things I find out is firstly, what happened 1936. But in 1938, exactly, the 25 of the sandbar. This is also point of view of the Republicans, they to put the 25 of December, you know, it has had an impact anyway. But the thing I was going to say, it does this route was not approved by the parliament. Because in 1978, Catalan parliament was able to get reunions because the word the war was on, we were in the middle of the war and the Buttigieg did not go together. So this is not allow allow. It is what we call a de cred law. And I'm just saying this, because what I feel is that I don't know, if they had the discussion, if they could get through on the same as we did. I mean, I'm not going to justify but what my thing is, that when you are in a moment of war, and you have an Arab to enhance the government, you are not obliged to go to the Parliament, because parliament is doing other things. And you can't just say, This isn't our job. And one of the main points they put it, it gets very well with that. Save your family. One of the things they do, it was because of what we call healthy. We're very afraid when you use a wall to have children malformed, and we know that that's one of the very big I'm not sure that there was a moment when anyway, the law was good. And you know, we need you to make what they call a prophylactic abortion. And what they say they say, law, basic love Overwatch, and it seems that we were in the middle of the world and the main they were thinking more than humans. Why is that? They were thinking in a bigger ship is a world difficult situation. I'm not going to say that our world is better or worse than the other one. Just trying to point out the moment.

Unknown Speaker  49:51
I'd like to join in that one I disagree with the dates but anyway, that's beside the point. What probably would have They have to set at the same time is that the reason to my mind, one of the many reasons why this law was actually applied at the time was because the anarchists were in power. And at the Banyas was the Director General of the, of the Ministry of Health at the time, he was an anarchist, he was an ongoing member of the anarchist Neo Malthusian movement who had been publishing journals from the 20s and 30s. So it does fit into a whole anarchists policy of self health, etc. So if that had not been the case, then I quite agree with Anna, we would not have had an abortion law in Catalonia at the time, if we didn't have a particular you know, social change, etc, etc, was going on at a particular point in time.

Unknown Speaker  50:40
And happened in the in the

Unknown Speaker  50:42
First World War in the United States, they didn't have an abortion law, but condoms to the soldiers sort of motivation is the one that Anna was talking about. What I wanted to bring up is something that was sort of referred to earlier was an which, because when you talked about the the Anti Fascist resistance, we would never say, Taiwan for formation of consciousness. And would you mentioned female consciousness, and I'm wondering if you could talk about how you see that and why you think it's a useful category female, used by tema, Catlin? I think she's the first person that

Unknown Speaker  51:24
well, when I referred to the Organization of Women, they're mobilization during the Civil War. One of the major Well, let's put it this way that female organization was basically channeled through female movements. One was the major movement, which was the female, Anti Fascist movement, and the other would have been the anarchist movement, the free women movement. Now the major one was the Anti Fascist movement, which was an attempt to involve women of different political or non political coloring within this all over ongoing struggle. Now, when they actually mobilized and the discourse involved in the mobilization, to a large degree was a very traditional one. For example, the identity membership card of the Anti Fascist women's movement, spoke on the issue of fascism addressed the issue of fascism and the consequences of head for women, but it did not do so, in direct relation to the woman as a person, but as a mother, as a mother, or as a wife. In other words, in as the function as mother, wife, etc, etc. There is not a direct discourse towards when women are mobilized, they are mobilized in supportive roles relief work, they are mobilized to for educational purposes, there is a big educational and professional training drive. But for example, they are not stated in the terms of the right of women to education, per se, but the right of women to education in order to be trained, so that she can occupy post that is being occupied by males. So what I'm saying here basically, is that what you have is and also this is to a large degree assimilated by the women themselves, a development of their consciousness as women and involvement in the political arena due to their acceptance of their role as nurturers providers, etc, etc. Which, obviously it comes up with a tension, because there's a tension on the one hand because the antifascist women's movement pushes women into the public arena, but at the same time, it's using a very traditional discourse on separation of the spheres domesticity, etc. So there are particular points in time. I think the time was too short for it to develop as such, but you do get individual expressions of awareness of the certain degree of contradiction, in the sense that you do also, to some degree, it's very difficult to qualify exactly to what degree find some degree of developing between commas feminist awareness, people saying if we get a job, well, we want to keep on that job. So I think you have the major focus is on women as nurturers but from time to time you also, you know, you can bleed. This sort of more impressionistic evidence that there is an ongoing, developing consciousness bit on the social or political level as well, because it does mean women who would normally have stayed at home being involved in this great Anti Fascist movement. And also, to a degree, it affects them as people. I mean, for many women, it was very important to be able to go out on the street unchaperoned to be able to actually go to literacy classes, I mean, 45, or six countries, exactly percent of women were illiterate in 1936. So it's extremely important for women to do so. And also, we find that within this discourse of women organizing themselves, that it is sometimes very gender specific discourse in the sense that they project themselves in their organization in their publicizing and publishing of many journals, because there's a great proliferation of women journal with female journals at the time as a way of showing women's competence. So you have the, you know, female consciousness is not sufficient, as a catalog of analysis for that, but it is useful in certain areas, feminist consciousness, political social consciousness, is also I think, a huge repository, although naturally enough, this is against the background, probably a very solid part of the population who simply wants to survive the war of women who are interested in queueing for bread and actual survival, you know, but um, I do think in that sense, it is, it has been useful to

Unknown Speaker  56:41
the organizational sort of mobilization not side, that is the active ingredient, even though the ideology is conditional. So, the, all I'm saying is, I'm not sure that it's necessary. I mean, maybe it's necessary to think about it. But when you start really laying it out, I'm not sure that the content, the fact that this has this female, traditional female content is a good way to label it. I mean, by that term, rather than, you know, sort of organizational aspect, emphasizing the organizational aspect of it, because that's what you're saying, is the important thing, the organizational change component of it. I guess I'm a little bit I'm sort of feeling a little bit articulated that I'm being a little bit inarticulate about it, let's say, because I had this groping, feeling worry about this. And, and when you said it, and sort of triggered it off again, is it something real female consciousness? Or is it because these women are in organizations that are being paid attention to listen to given the opportunity to do something different that that is the change component, or the salient component?

Unknown Speaker  58:17
The thing is, you see, when the war breaks out, there is the spontaneous reaction, which is later channeled. And so, you know, I do feel that there's this initial involvement by women initially, but then that gets changed, because the development of the organization, I mean, we can change the notation just as easily

Unknown Speaker  58:40
talk about the women that were mentioned before that went to work along with the flanges. And you could talk about having come still within within what's what's considered to be the traditional context and for the traditional context, but nevertheless, in terms of their own particular behavior, they were probably to a great degree doing activities that they had not necessarily been asked to do before. And so I think that that is significant, because to try to do what's called this analysis of, of what's the ideology behind the movement, but but because what happens later is after the particular catalyst no longer exists, then you have to see where have they come? And where will they go with it? Where will they go with the so called new formulation of their own consciousness? So and that's very problematic, because what, you know what time at what time it talks about the women going out into the street, and they went for particular so called female issues, doesn't necessarily trace what has what has happened to that consciousness. And although she says, Well, they, they went back and they didn't take everything to its logical conclusion. Right. So and that, you know, that's one of the things that that you talk about with with Well, of course, the anarchist women, that's a whole different that's a whole different ballgame. And that was something that I was gonna ask about. So I think that that's a real still a real area of, of ignorance. The women that were very much involved in clandestine activity in terms of the Communist Party in Spain, are really still remain unknown to us. I mean, Lydia writes one book about it, you know, it's like, it's a yellow, and a poor. And then I read this book about this woman, one of Onya, who wrote about her 20 something years in prison. But apart from that, we have very little and, of course, the area of what was ideology and how was the left which we know, I mean, the left and the problem of women's work, but what was going on in terms of their own development, since this clandestine activity made such demands on on their their level of consciousness? And,

Unknown Speaker  1:00:56
you know, there are some studies commonly sparked in Catalonia and a magazine called compound.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:02
Note, this is you're speaking about after the war. Yeah, sorry.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:07
You're speaking during the war, we have after after, after the recent papers? I don't know, I know that. There was activity

Unknown Speaker  1:01:13
after this was there are some

Unknown Speaker  1:01:15
other studies, there's a study by Juliana, the Pharaoh. And also what we are beginning to get now. And I think it's something that should be done is that is the memoirs, we have already two volumes published by Thomas Aquinas on her, her memoirs, and also her interviews with women who had been imprisoned with her during the Franco regime. So we are, again, slowly building up, it's very difficult to I think, you know, actually get a feel of what this actually meant for women themselves. Because when you talk to people who are involved, particularly in the clandestine resistance at the time, I think the political issues are so much in their minds, that it's actually extremely difficult to get them to talk about everyday things about how they lived through it. And this, I think, is a major problem. Speaking about the period of civil war, or speaking about people involved during the resistance to the Franco regime, it's very difficult for them, they give you a political message, basically. And to break down this political message to actually get me to feel that one is worth talking about. And to get them to understand what you are trying to find out about, I think, is very difficult. And most of the sources like these biographies, or these memoirs, we have, have also had this very political focus. So it's not an easy thing to do, because I think these women saw themselves primarily as being involved in a political movement. And they, they at least were not explicitly aware or don't express or articulate. They don't express or articulate this, this other part of it. And I think in that sense, you You're quite right. It's what we have is just partially, you know, it's not the complete image, but it's very, very difficult to get out. There are, you know, studies being developed again, you know, we tend to be on saying that we're developing things, but to get you know, the