Unknown Speaker 00:00 In the case of what you're talking about, this is not untypical to collation where the law was made of a woman which would you take her husband's job right and if somebody asked to watch you there she would say well I'm taking my husband and reunited to what she had anything intrinsically to do with that work it wasn't like a skill or anything else take that working Unknown Speaker 00:39 well on the assumption that the employer was going to be no problem that it's hard to know how common that was but I've seen people that Unknown Speaker 00:53 always had one response to the challenge you ready step by Unknown Speaker 01:27 step not having babies work that was performed on women there Unknown Speaker 01:39 and all the Unknown Speaker 01:40 remaining problems that father Unknown Speaker 01:48 affiliation is worth it. Honestly number two again, Unknown Speaker 01:53 please don't come into this life Unknown Speaker 01:57 distracted again that might Unknown Speaker 02:04 sound weird women were very insistent about their right to leave Canada and there were even some cases I ran across a few cases of so called sweater strikes struck me when I didn't want to wear this thread you know, masculine looking clothes on again and sort of contradiction to what I think the sort of retrospective feminist view of residence is which is that she wants to get a sort of thing it's really not at all Unknown Speaker 02:31 but it would work with the overall economy an industry Unknown Speaker 02:46 when a made the point of an assembly system just because we're very beautiful and there was so many others clothing grab enough was. Unknown Speaker 03:17 68 this forest either it is really more of a Unknown Speaker 03:31 turn number, or you have a Unknown Speaker 03:35 much larger timeline Unknown Speaker 03:36 there. Unknown Speaker 03:38 But concepts and many Unknown Speaker 03:41 times they'll be dead could be something else. And I can do a lot the daughter's Unknown Speaker 03:54 wasn't an option, just wanted to say that I have never seen any other I don't know where to put the ratio like that to the ratio. But it's hard to start. Unknown Speaker 04:16 I personally avoided the subject. Because I had this sneaking suspicion. I wasn't gonna like what I found out when I investigated. That was the mind interation felt like, in a lot of ways, I mean, they sold their Bruce rights. They went my image request and they went in and had, you know, a little taste of what it meant to be on their own and able to manage things. And then what did they do? sort of gave it up. So that was the end of they had a long time of my mother's generation until I kind of went into it. I got a bit of Unknown Speaker 05:03 what was going on. Unknown Speaker 05:05 So one of the things in sermons My mother said that she loved the most was my mother who was forcing Unknown Speaker 05:16 them to stay in that role changes that could change would always say she loved my parents explained to me so there Unknown Speaker 05:26 is Mantella which we have winter school with Unknown Speaker 05:30 red hairs. Unknown Speaker 05:34 Shoulders, so that come to mind? Unknown Speaker 05:40 Yes Unknown Speaker 05:43 faction simplified group, and especially because of a shortage. And that really meant that a lot of villages full of skirts, everything went smooth down. Color callers in many cases, according to what they have. To Unknown Speaker 06:13 say it's interesting that you miss that, because, you know, I recently we read the feminine. And, you know, she makes us feel that the war awesome in that book. And I mean, she's talking, of course about that. I mean, the older generation of women who've been some of those men became famous in the 60s, you know, it's two generations after all, right, there's the sort of now level or whatever, for people who are the sort of middle class college student generation. So, but she talks a lot about the worst the backdrop to the 60s, it's quite explicit, although there's not very much detail about it. And there's something to that. So it's just very hard to know what happens to that germ that's there. Because early on, so I was trying to say that there is no there's sort of no support for it just it's an experience. There are people obviously remember it must be shaped by it in some way. And yet it's very hard to train somebody to do a lot of different things and fighting. And then you were saying how so much about what's happening. Unknown Speaker 07:50 And increasingly, some of that stuff, despite well fought for is being enforced qualify for both? Unknown Speaker 08:15 I guess I think that's the one who isn't going to get rehearse, which is what got reversed it for the wars and what it was, is one of the workplace games, it's true that affirmative action legislation didn't have that big an impact anyway. And every single time for women and I don't know, I think in terms of, you know, some of the changes are just not reversible. Unknown Speaker 08:38 That doesn't mean I think we're back to exactly the same question, really. We don't agree with seniority with anything else. It seniority and whiteness, ignoring affection being the big sort of issue, which is going to determine whether you're going to stay in those muscles. Unknown Speaker 08:57 Or I'm sorry for finish? Well, I guess because Because today, unlike the war, I mean, jobs were segregated by sex during World War Two, as we now but women did, were in the same seniority unit. So at least officially a low can work out that way. As men, I mean, employers were able to manipulate the, you know, the job classifications and say, Well, this is a woman's job. Now, this is a man's job after the war and therefore willing to call back men. In some cases, it varies a lot actually, from plant to plant name. Today, though, women don't work, jobs very much I mean, that the minority of women who are non traditional jobs are affected by that. But that's the vast majority. Unknown Speaker 09:38 smokestack industry. Jobs. Unknown Speaker 09:46 That's the I mean, I guess that's why I think it's different I mean, as opposed to during the war, when there's really a massive change there. It's been very marginal, in the base majority of women still working clerical service sales, etc. And, and they're not affected by this. In fact, They're no less effective than men by that, as a group, women by the decline of those industries Unknown Speaker 10:05 at the same time, it just goes in the direction of further Unknown Speaker 10:09 education. Sure, no, but it certainly doesn't. But I guess I feel like a little progress is made to begin with, but it doesn't seem that significant. But anyway, we should have a little go on. Unknown Speaker 10:21 To speak about the difference Unknown Speaker 10:25 between the blacks and women that we like as black women who are educated and badly talented with the definitive action, opposite say that they consider themselves black before they consider themselves women, and a producer that this is a cliche to say that they're like, Wow, more organized because there wasn't single, which they could organize. And that was their color. And women come in all shapes. Unknown Speaker 11:06 My mediums were 123, black women, were clear that they were using the FPPC, which is structured, which was really organized choice, race discrimination complaint that they were, they found, from their point of view, the race movement, a lot more sturdy, and a lot more capable than any sort of non existent feminist movement. So that this tradition, if you will, of identifying with the race with the writing section movement, certainly has very good foundations in the war period. And then if we wanted to take it back to the depression as far as depression agencies, but that seems to have been, historically anyway, a more operational kind of vehicle for change. Now, it's true that black women during the war, as I said, Have I think paid the worst mixture of discriminations possible, so that they don't get a whole lot out of this machine that they use, but that's clearly where they're seeing their identity. Unknown Speaker 12:38 But I'm gonna make just to respond to the other panelists, your comment that, you know, I think, in spite of the fact that women come in all shapes and sizes, more, more shapes and sizes, blacks, I suppose, although I guess a case could be made there, too. You know, we know that when we can organize a political movement, we have one, right? I mean, so it's not what puncher Unknown Speaker 13:02 got women. And that's not what she was saying to women, it's like really quite defined, by the way and race, etc. We know that, okay. I thought this woman Jean was saying was that women as a group are perhaps harder and harder to organize or perhaps aren't harder to organize because we are divided by class and race, whereas blacks have more homogeneity and therefore more organized, isn't what you were suggesting. You know, I'm saying we know that when we've been organizing five that we've done at a more reasonable, that's correct. Okay. Well, Unknown Speaker 13:32 I mean, I think simply, to put it historically, during that period, there were more vehicles in the black community for tangible and, and usable protest for movement, there was there was a structure there that they were building. And that is in stark contrast to let's say, what's going on in feminist circles of that time, where I can only really find people like pro buck and William Smith and you know, some singular others who are coming out with a very strong feminist and pacifist Unknown Speaker 14:13 but that's my point. Is that you Unknown Speaker 14:17 have done it most of the questions why? Unknown Speaker 14:22 One, one illustrates you have to look into yourself for why you did Unknown Speaker 14:29 that come in to that I during the last 15 minutes. Segment, women and blacks and so, you know, exists no lab where black and white or all black. You know that we also have an understanding of relationships A black or white woman, and when a black woman is described in the educated and intelligent nontheless, she says, then I think we have to act as a description for a round and Unknown Speaker 15:29 I think the key factor in Unknown Speaker 15:33 terms of supporting, struggling, black versus first discovered Unknown Speaker 15:39 was that the political organizations were very involved in that. And I was lucky to know that we frequently dealt with issues I was one of the main reasons. And I do recall ever having never been Unknown Speaker 16:09 officially trivet in practice. But it was there was an executive order that said you're not supposed to discriminate on the basis of race, there was nothing like that. It was completely legal for this. Unknown Speaker 16:20 It was a tremendous support organization. And moving to the issue of discrimination was it wasn't I, it's my memory is dim, I just do not remember is that is a biggie. There was the thing, they published a pamphlet, little thing. Unknown Speaker 16:51 It was, you know, when they knew they were supposed to be there, you know, it Unknown Speaker 16:57 was I think a lot of scenarios are happening to society, exactly. Unknown Speaker 17:10 To blow the job I was doing came back and they have a brand new ship. Now, Unknown Speaker 17:27 that's very interesting. There is evidence in terms of what you're talking about. I know for the Communist Party, in terms of if somebody did a little statistical science shed that big increase in women's leadership during the war, and it just like you said, I don't I haven't seen anything about what happened afterwards. But that's very interesting. Just to give a personal Unknown Speaker 17:45 example, I was working for the Social Security Board. And I was very Unknown Speaker 17:55 male leader of the Union, right? And he came to me and said, Well, now you have to take over, never doesn't happen. Unknown Speaker 18:06 And I had no experience. Unknown Speaker 18:10 And no, no training would be fine. And no, I mean, I'm just thrust into a position and Unknown Speaker 18:18 I have great anxiety and I realized that as well. I realize now Unknown Speaker 18:25 since women will be gone and all that is left is women. And for us it's not that important. Leadership. Unknown Speaker 18:36 It's okay. It's only operational Unknown Speaker 18:40 and I'd like I went back I see mobile and PDF and then when he goes when he came back Unknown Speaker 18:53 I was just listening to what he said Unknown Speaker 19:06 I'm trying to understand what what what if What wasn't appearing here as far as I feel that maybe they weren't is worth fighting for a lot of choices. In the last emerge social it's not I don't see whether it's really time to see the cat food sourcing on the live lines were drawn the embryo I think this is Unknown Speaker 21:30 it this is good, you want to change the world Unknown Speaker 21:46 why don't we have some time to do so many questions in here? We weren't I mean, I don't really disagree with what you said in terms of the situation being flexible at the end of the war. I think that's really true. But I just think that, again, the kind of personal life issues were just never posed. I mean, again, there wasn't people's experience, and I guess consciousness. So we don't really know what the question was. I mean, it's hard to spare to know if that was a little bit like what, you know, obviously, there was some important different experiences that occurred, okay. It doesn't seem like, you know, again, I'm like now, and I don't know how to explain this. But there wasn't any cultural acknowledgement of that. I mean, insofar as it was even talked about, it was talking about an extremely negative terms like, this is horrible. All these things are happening. And it's because we ban women are working. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I mean, but we're even I mean, that was sort of jokingly, you know, critical, but the sort of social worker types and people like that, who would just say that, yeah, this is endangering the kind of stuff in new rights today, you know, our society is falling apart, because women are working class stuff. And, you know, boy, when this war is over, we're gonna get back to work. And now, I don't know, I mean, that may have nothing to do with what it meant to the people themselves who went through these channels, you know, quite possible. Well, I mean, they may not care what the social workers thought, you know, I mean, I don't know, I just have no way of knowing that from but you know, it's just I just feel like it's an unresearched question that we just thought I would just warn you, right. Unknown Speaker 23:21 A lot of you have certain ideas. Present you just really just Unknown Speaker 23:25 sort of counterfactual question. Right. So today, yeah. In the contemporary situation, I guess I think that, you know, that what has changed now, is that not only to women have jobs outside the home, etc, whether they're married or not, but now, that is totally legitimate sex discrimination, even that goes on is completely illegitimate today. That is one thing that really has changed. I mean, I think because I, you know, I mean, who could have a fascist revolution? In which case it's well, okay, sure, sure that I think, you know, which I don't think is gonna happen. I mean, if you think that's gonna happen, then I'm completely wrong. Okay, it's, well, anything's possible. Sure. But it seems pretty unlikely. I mean, short of that, it seems to me, you know, there's just no toleration to that. Now, that doesn't mean that there's not going to continue to be the 59 cents problem, etc. I mean, that's, that's the change. But there's not even AFL CIO is in favor of, of, you know, not just the era, but it's completely when Reagan floated this idea that unemployment was high during the Reagan recession, because when because there were too many women working, it was Unknown Speaker 24:39 a total leg blown. I Unknown Speaker 24:41 mean, nobody bought it. It was buried in the suburbs of Atlanta. That's a it's also sort of stupid. I mean, it was just completely it did not turn out that. I mean, you can't really say but not for that kind of attack on deployment is often difficult. possible anymore. I mean, you know, that attack was made in the 30s. And it was very successful. I mean, it didn't get women out of the labor force, but it meant that they had to take the wedding ring off at the factory gate or whatever, that's just not going to happen again, I think I can't throw that to you honestly. Unknown Speaker 25:19 To me, what happened? What did happen to when, during the what was kind of that it was a first experience of reading a lot of different other things. And looking at a lot of issues of that, what sort of differences have we gotten over and why that, that meeting with other women, and men realizing what race differences were, what ethnic differences were, and how they were going to cope with them, and how that made a great deal of difference, and how the rest of the world treated them. That was the sort of like first basic necessary foundation experience which had to be had before, I think a lot of the later things in the 60s etc, could ever take place. So that was a kind of a ground floor in that period. But in terms of what might be possible now versus them. The only thing I can see that would to me that one striking difference is that you don't have a declared war of the type that we have number two now. So that as a matter of fact, women are spending not too much time as they put on more work as work during the war. So there is a little bit more discretionary time, which is very lacking during the war. If I wanted to explain why there were a whole lot less changes in law, my hope for it was simply overwork and not having enough time to do a lot of stepping out that everybody talks about, but I don't I wouldn't agree with that what is going on now is certainly because I see I see the same sort of propaganda machine able to steam up a great deal of very patriotic identification by women in this country. Unknown Speaker 27:32 But what does that have to do with the changes in women's lives as women I did print right when one Unknown Speaker 27:39 starts bringing with it a whole lot of other baggage you might not have you know wanted a lot of that other baggage but you can come part of that side of the aisle. So women who might just sort of think that it's a good idea to defend your country as Communism will Unknown Speaker 27:59 I mean, we should go on about the fight I could say more about it Unknown Speaker 28:21 segregation Unknown Speaker 28:25 stage Unknown Speaker 28:26 and in terms of structural streamlining your employment Unknown Speaker 28:32 will be conditional and all of us make a different player it's fascinating because Unknown Speaker 28:50 I've seen one in particular really tough to get in my mind not only Unknown Speaker 29:12 is it Samsung phones and brightens. Here's a small check for the car Unknown Speaker 29:38 there's a warmer shift for the bar and come out for a single female also. It's not necessary not to Over Unknown Speaker 30:03 a series of movements and the Unknown Speaker 30:19 underlying cause question Unknown Speaker 30:23 the question I thought I just Unknown Speaker 30:33 had one point which seems to me that way composition that you're talking about is making what has historically been defined as female jobs much more central to the economy than ever before the jobs that are disappearing are for the most part those so called middle male jobs mostly and the smokestack jobs too I mean you know so that if anything well I just picked up my file Unknown Speaker 31:00 pardon me man I want to point Unknown Speaker 31:10 out what's happened This is increasing number Unknown Speaker 31:31 of morning I just Unknown Speaker 32:08 think that you know, the existence of a feminist ideology that has some popular support you know, is what existed in the one poster boy that comes honestly you're sort of running around you know, and I guess the other question is what is that you know, just that seems to me I mean, I thought a Unknown Speaker 32:32 lot about the thing Unknown Speaker 32:36 that makes it possible for these things to be less than changes in the way that they want more profit from other Unknown Speaker 32:52 weddings are now stronger because once again point there was no struggle with this but it also converts remind us of those exterior that now, it gives myself Unknown Speaker 33:34 my students that I just have to start to develop homework is most important Unknown Speaker 33:43 but you know, the words quizzes are the most popular points and they're all right. And so I just really think it's a mistake to assume that those necessarily don't work. Now obviously those assumptions persuade you, anybody that I guess I'm not arguing with candidates Unknown Speaker 34:31 very, very deep analysis of what you get for society. And for that pacifist position, which was a pacifist feminism, attempting not to be like men to fight and then she was out in the cold with the rise of one mobilization it's truly patriotic. We're in your offices of government commands to a research space and call the shots so I'm going to give the voice of the pro Buck types it's good to get down in the face of research and I don't see any reason why Unknown Speaker 35:24 I guess I'm not arguing with feminism is is something that's gonna last forever All I'm saying is that there are really basic changes in women's actual life situation that I think can't be reversed. In other words Unknown Speaker 35:38 actual lives and the kind of ideological household walk around with you no one can be doing some very what might look to be like liberated work just like our visitors. And yet when there's not a consciousness that is aware of it and taking it into account and validating it as a statement about what's possible for your gender, your race or whatever, then what is it we have a lot of people I know because I can do this college who have you know, notions of work and so forth which do not work let's say would you put him in his ideology and then they're willing to live with the gays that other women had run Unknown Speaker 36:29 through with them so they don't necessarily feel any need to pay debt but they demand on your part the problem as a part of the solution Unknown Speaker 37:07 how the end of the session several Unknown Speaker 37:09 studies in a data center Unknown Speaker 37:12 activity those are one broad focus on Unknown Speaker 37:16 that but that remains is reason to secure your brand but it doesn't necessarily. Unknown Speaker 37:38 I agree. I don't remember that's very clarifying. I think I've looked at that. I guess though, if you look at it in historical perspective, what you're calling is sort of pseudo Reaganite feminism, mild meat years ahead and even if you're looking at 1945 That's all I mean, so that's what I find Unknown Speaker 37:55 is when you say this issue sexism as was recommended luck which both were useful in practice it's Unknown Speaker 38:30 because they don't have Unknown Speaker 38:38 great part of the article Unknown Speaker 38:50 which is my accent to sit. Down stopping by