Unknown Speaker 00:13 we've only gotten through page four. Okay, maybe we'll talk for a while and you can take a break and read some more. When I originally proposed the title for deception, the session there was a sort of tag that went to set in Renaissance Rome on it. I feel feminists conferences, people talk about marginality, I feel very large sort of 19th and 20th century 21st century focus a lot of the material that we've heard this morning. Nevertheless, I'm pleased to be here. And I hope that I can share with you some of this material which I find very interesting and very useful. It's a kind of cross cultural exercise. I really fancied myself an anthropologist of the past rather than a historian and the more conventional senses of that term. We've been told by speakers either to abandon the past, because we can't fix it anymore. I've looked at the future. I understand the sentiment of the professional commitment to not to acting upon it all the time. Because I've been told by Louise Merriweather, who was reading from her historical novel about how the past offers us images or ways of understanding ourselves, which are often more powerful than whatever the reality might have been. I can't promise pose that looking at my 16th and 17th century, people in any direct way talks about images we have ourselves in the 20th century. On the other hand, I think that you can learn a great deal about the process about how society works about how people operate in a social context for a different tomorrow, in ways that are useful to us, understanding our 21st century concerns as well as looking backward once. What I'm interested in studying is something which historians are only beginning to study, it's fairly current, somewhat reasonably fashionable focus for historical study, which is to look at micro politics, so called interpersonal relations, that transactions between people to the extent that we can see them in the past as as a vehicle for understanding a dimension of the past, which history doesn't conventionally talk about. And obviously, I'm interested in ones in which gender is a major issue. So what I brought to share with you today, and I'm really very interested in your reactions to what material which is why I went to the trouble of asking you to pages and pages of stuff. How we can understand these people in their own context, and how we can compare what they're doing in their context with anything which is similar to their problems with being an anthropologist of the past, that anthropologists present. Surviving societies don't have that I can't go and visit, I can't go interview, I can't live with them and find out how they live by seeing the totality in process. I am restricted to the material remnants of the past which are still available in our in cityscape, in maps in various sorts of documents, including the ones that I brought here. These are documents which are because their criminal court records allow an insight into that dimension, society anomaly. The they're not altogether and prescriptive, but in the sense they're much closer I will at least contend to what how people actually behave but more importantly, how they talked about how they behave than you get from a lot of the other kinds of documents that was history is very imaginatively interesting with witnesses. I think there's another, another dimension or another layer, which you can get from reading this kind of stuff. Unknown Speaker 04:35 I sort of stumbled onto this project. My husband decided he wanted to go to Rome to pursue some research of his own and ultimately ended up doing a fairly elaborate joint project out of this material when he's looking at certain things and I'm not going to keep feeding back and collecting more and more of these cases. But I sort of went to the archive to see what was there without any sense of What I'm fine. And I found myself starting to read these things. And it's really likely mystery stories. You get into what the layers come out different people with their different points of view everybody lies. Because they have their own perspective, their own interest that they want to protect in one way or another, really happened here, who's doing what and why, and so on. And so there's a, there's just a pleasure and the kind of inherent interest in working with this stuff will come out of the course of talking about some of the more thematic concerns which I also see to be there. I'm operating with when I talk about focus on ideas about honor and shame, with the School of anthropology that sees ideas or things of the mind is having a kind of real social force. Again, there's a lot of talk about power relations, he was talking about economic relations, and I certainly, those are important that must be studied. But I also think that in this particular material, discuss today, you can see the ways in which people's concern about status, concern about their self image, that sort of public persona, in a way also shapes how they behave, they aren't merely trying to maximize income or material benefits, or power, at least in the sort of large scale sense. And I also very much want to emphasize cultural particularity. Again, to make sense of things, I think you don't make vast generalizations about how men and women behave in all cultures. But you really have to try to look at this particular world, and see how the various people interact with each other for the context with which they have to operate. And it seems to me in the Renaissance realm of looking at that you just can't make sense of this kind of raw material, unless you say, if people are working for honor, we're working to protect honor to avoid shame. At the same time, as an often in tension with trying to maximize some of these other things that people want to have. Well, I talked about honor, I'm talking about something which is roughly corresponds to reputation, the name, face respect, all of these terms belong to the certain group of ideas, which are fundamentally social, that it isn't who you are, internally in your very sort of personal self that matters. But it has to do with a publicly presented persona, and help people in the world around me in response to you. That has a value system, honor and shame is dependent on other people's observations and assigning to you the value is not something and then you have to operate in such a way that you either sacrifice or promote that image which you would like society to have a view of, rather than to focus on some sort of inner personal sense of my identity or something. In the Renaissance context, and then another paper that I've worked on these people certainly have some sense of individuality of who they are. But it's very, very hard to pin down exactly what that consists of, they don't have our assumptions about the sort of the natural individuality of people on the service compulsion of the inner self to make itself known in some kind of way, but that is a modern conception that is a cultural construct in our own. And I think it's a misreading to read into things people know, it's sometimes tempting for people to see it Unknown Speaker 09:20 and know, obviously, everybody would like to be esteemed by the members of this community. And at some level, you know, having a good reputation is something which everybody wants into kind of universal. On the other hand, I'm arguing that there are some cultures in which that is, has a much higher priority than than others. And that it certainly applies in the culture from which these documents come, but is one which we see certainly elsewhere in the world. There are cultures in Africa which have been studied in the Caribbean, particularly in the Mediterranean context. Were to have honor have the sense of face of public respect is so very important that you often will sacrifice economic advantage, for instance, in order to maintain this reputation. Unknown Speaker 10:25 dishonor contract stuff is stuff anybody's familiar with? I don't know. Okay, fine. I haven't read a lot of literature, but I gathered that. In West Indian societies, there are studies have been done by anthropologists. I can't remember the name of somebody who was reading something not too long ago in which they were talking next is about women's operating to preserve a sense of public respectability, even when it was economically advantageous. But I don't I Well, I haven't read this, I only saw somebody referring to, you know, to the study, I was sort of trying to collect the sense of I've read some African stuff. And I've read a lot of Mediterranean stuff. And I was interested in through that in because somebody made a reference the same, but they also saw this kind of pattern and COVID conference, but I can't give you the specifics. Okay, what I, in order to present at least the sort of Italian version of this culture, I decided maybe one of the easier ways would be to read your story from the past show, in which was a 14th century Florentine writer of stories about tricks and games and playfulness and so on with the series purpose. Where many elements of the honor complexes it's operating in the world, I want to study our our visible. It's a story the book is organized as 10 days of storytelling by a group, a group of people who have left Florence because the Black Death is raging in the city. And they go off to the lovely villa in the countryside and sit there and entertain one another telling stories for 10 days, and each person tells a story on each day around the theme. And seven day, the stories are supposed to be about tricks that women play on their husbands in order to either protect their love or to preserve them for self preservation is the set fee. I've picked this story because it illustrates a conflict between love war, buildings of lost love and some other sense of honor are obviously very much at odds in it. And also because after I've read the story, I'll go back and pick out several elements that I think are really hard for them to keep in mind. Okay, so it's in the city of a rat. So then they lived there once the demand of means toughen over name. We're having taken to wife a woman, a very great beauty, called Mona Geeta promptly grew jealous of her without any reason. On preceding her jealous he was the lady took offense, and repeatedly asked him to explain the reason and since he could only reply in vague, illogical terms, she resolved to make him suffer in good earnest from the ill which he had hitherto had feared without thought. Unknown Speaker 13:38 Having observed as a certain young man, a very agreeable sort of fella different way of thinking, with casting amorous glances in her direction, she secretly began to cultivate his acquaintance. And then she, the young man carried the affair to the point where it remained only to translate words into deeds. She once again took the initiative and devise a way of doing it. She had already discovered that one of her husband's bad habits was a fondness for drink. And so she began not only to commend him for it, but to encourage him deliberately whenever she had a chance. With a little practice, she quickly acquired the knack of persuading him to bring himself into a stupor, almost as almost as often as she chose. And once he saw that he was blind drunk, she put him to bed and for gathered to her lover. This soon became a regular habit of theirs, and then that together in perfect safety, and did the lady came to rely so completely on the fellows talent for drinking himself unconscious, that she made bold not only to admit her lover to the premises, but on occasion to go and spend a goodly part of the night with him at his house. It wasn't no break distance away. The Amorous lady had been doing this for quite some time, and her unfortunate husband happened to notice. Although she encouraged him to drink she never drank at all, made him suspect, as was indeed the case. That His wife was making him drunk so that she could do it please, sleep. In order to prove whether this was so he returned one evening, I think refrain from drinking the whole day, and pretended to be drunk as the Lord, scarcely able to speak or stand on his feet being taken in by all this, including and concluded that he would sleep like a log without imbibing any more liquor. His wife quickly put him to bed and then left the house made her way. She was on previous occasions to the house of her lover, where she stayed for half the night. Hearing no sound from his wife, Tofino got up, went and bolted the door from the inside, and stationed himself at the window, so that he would see her coming back and let her know they had tumbled to her mischief. There he remained until she returned. Braving Dede was the woman's distress when she came home to find that she was locked out. She began to apply all of his strengths and an effort to force open the door. Toughen up, put up with this for a while. Then he said, You're wasting your energies woman can't possibly get in. Go back to wherever it was you did until this hour of the night. Rest assured that you won't return to this house. So I've made an example of you, in front of your kids folk and the neighbor's that his wife began to plead with him for love of God to let her in saying that she had not been doing anything wrong, as he suppose, except for keeping vigil with a neighbor of hers. The news could neither sleep the whole night because it was too long, nor keep vigil in the house by herself. For please we're totally unavailing, for the silly ass was clearly determined that all the IRA team should learn about his dishonor, of which none of them had so far heard anything. And when she saw that it was no use and pleading with him, the woman resorted to threats and said, If you don't let me in, I shall make you the sorry as man on earth. Which Tofino replied, and how are you going to do that? The lady had all her wits about her. Her love was her counselor, she replied, rather than face the dishonor which in spite of my innocence, who threatened me with I shall throw myself into this where and when they find me dead inside it, they will think that it was you threw me into it when you were drunk. And so we there you will have to run away, lose everything you possess and live in exile, or you will have your head chopped off for murdering your wife, which is in effect what you will have done. Having made up his stupid mind toughen, it was not affected in the slightest by these words. And so his wife said, Now look here, I won't let you torment me any longer. May God forgive you. I'll leave my distaff here and you can put it back where it belongs. The night was so dark, you could scarcely see your hand at the front of your face. Having uttered these words, the woman groped her way towards the well. picked up an enormous stone was lying beside it with a cry of God forgive me. He dropped it into the depths. Stone struck the water with a tremendous hope and I heard this he was firmly convinced that she had thrown herself in. So he sees the pail and it's rope rushed headlong and from the house, ran to the welder, sister. His wife was lying in wait near the door. soon as she saw him running to the well, she stepped inside, bolted the door, and went through the window. And still, you should water your wine when you're drinking, not in the middle of the night. Unknown Speaker 18:39 When he heard her voice tough and I saw that he'd been out with made his way back to the house. But I'm finding that he couldn't open the door he ordered her to let him in. Whereas previously she had addressed him and a little more than a whisper. His wife now began to shove almost at the top of her voice saying, by the grace of God, you love some song. You're not going to come in here tonight. I will not tolerate this conduct of yours any longer. I'm I showed people what sort of a man you are and the hours that you keep being very angry Tofana to began to shout, pouring out a stream of abuse for the neighbors, men and women alike hearing all this racket, got out of bed and appeared at their windows and demanded to know what was going on. The woman's eyes filled with tears, and she said, it's this villain of a man who returns home drunk every evening, where else he falls asleep in some tavern or other and comes home back at this hour. I put up with it for God knows how long and remonstrated with him until I'm blue in the face. I can't put up with it a moment longer. So I decided to take him down a peg or two by locking him out to see whether its members way tougher now on the other hand, like the fool that he was explained precisely what has happened. We came up with a whole lot of threats and abuse are upon us why spoke up again saying because the neighbors, you say what sort of man is. But would you say if I were in the street and he was in the house instead of the other way around in God's faith, I have no doubt you would believe what he was saying. So you can see what a crafted fellow he is. He accuses me of doing the very thing that he appears to do have done himself. He thought he could frighten me by draping, dropping something or other down the well. But I wish to God they'd really thrown yourself in and drowned himself at the same time, so that all the wine he's been drinking would be well and truly diluted. The neighbors men and women alike all began to scold Tofana putting the blame on him and reviling him for slandering his poor wife. And in brief, they created such an uproar but it eventually reached the ears of her woman's kinsfolk. kinsfolk hurried to the scene. And having listened to the accounts of several of the neighbors, they took hold of Tofino and hammered until he was black and blue, and then went back to the house, collected all the women's belongings and took her back with them, threatening telephone with worst follow. Seeing what a sorry why he had landed himself in an account of his jealousy profundo since he was really very fond of his wife, just waited certain friends of his to intercede on his behalf with the ladies kinsfolk with whom he succeeded in making his piece and arranging for her to come back to him. And not only that he promised for that he would never be jealous again, that he gave her permission to amuse herself to her heart's content, provided she was sensible enough not to let him catch her out. So like the stupid peasant, he was first mad and then was pleasant, long live love, therefore and a plague on all. skinflint. That's the story. What's going on? A lot of the themes that are part of the standard standard on a culture obviously the concern with female chastity, which is I think what most people think of heard about Southern Italy or Spain, and these are the places where a woman's chastity is, is the family's honor. And it is the prime responsibility of all the male kinfolk to see that it's defended at all costs. And if the woman goes astray, then she gets punished as well as a lover or dishonor in the family and so forth. So the issue of whether or not women have sexual autonomy is very much part of this honor code and the notion that symbolically as well as for various practical reasons, women have to be contained and kept under veiled control in order to predict their honor. demands the family's honor, male honor, and female honor are all predicated on this female chastity. The emphasis on the publicity, the issue is not just what she has done, but the fact that the neighbors are called in to witness her dishonor by him. And then she of course, turns the tables on him as the neighbors witness his own dishonor. The calling of the kinsfolk which is another of the important audiences for this whole complex of values that the kinfolk are responsible for the woman. And when her husband has Dishonored her has abused her at least that's what the public reputation says, has been true until socially that is what's true whatever the woman has actually done. Unknown Speaker 23:38 The kinfolk step in, beat up the husband, take the woman away, until he proceeds to make a ritual, making amends. This is peacemaking, which is another part of this complex in their insults. There is dishonor and then you rectify it all by a rather formal negotiation and arrangement the peacemaking is often accompanied with a shared meal, we exchange different kisses, various kinds of things, like there's a whole sort of ritual set of behaviors around the loss of honor and the operation. We established proper on a relationship. Another major concern of the Honor Code is this issue of lying. You must not be seen to be lying, you must not be able to not just be demonstrated that you're lying and if you call somebody a liar, it's a major insult for man calls another man a liar. Then there's some kind of challenge and there has to be again a resolution, a dual Vendetta, a few minutes, some kind of fighting out. The issue of women's lying is a somewhat more complicated one. Adrienne Rich wrote an essay in color prose pieces in which she talks about whether or not honor is a proper context for talking about women's relations to each other. And the particular thing she's interested in talking about, is there a kind of a claim of lying that women do characteristically among themselves? That she finds is a bad thing that somehow women should Unknown Speaker 25:27 have a notion of honor or should there should be a sort of feminist notion of honor which is associated with truth telling to other women? Sort of classic example. Do you lie people, your woman friends about the fact that you've been asked out by a male after you've made an arrangement to go out with So is that kind of interpersonal kind of feeling, which I think is very central to this whole this whole code the focus of my work I'm also very interested in the notion of the house as a bounded space the inner and the outer of the house is protected space the family's honor being enclosed within the house in some way or at least the house itself and who's inside and who's outside who's at the window looking outside from it for business observation from a protected space is also a theme that comes up in Unknown Speaker 26:33 reference that I'm interested in pursuing. Am I making sense is this this is all about Unknown Speaker 26:46 thinking about this not knowing what the nature of the audience was the labor things that would be obvious. Tire you with excessively academic discussions about these things. Okay, so in the honor complex, and just in summary, it tends to, to, to operate in places where social boundaries are not terribly strong released, that there are people in competition with one another, who are not in a clear hierarchy, the people with whom you have fights about Iran are not your hero superiors or your clear inferiors, but are people with whom your relations are possibly uncertain when two men are challenging one another, and so and you don't, you're clear, social superior, you don't challenge he would not demean himself to have a duel with you, that would be demeaning to his honor to accept the challenge from an inferior. So it's, it's in a somewhat loose social situation where people's relations are negotiable and open to a kind of competitive points for shifting around kind of behavior. And it's been talked about very largely, as a male, complex interest interested in finding a very rich talking about it, a sort of whether or not as a female analog, as a repressive force, that no males impose this code on women or restrict women in the name of a code which women don't control and are, you know, in one sense, don't profit from any particular kind of what I would argue from the material that I have, from my room into court documents that there are competitions among women around the same kinds of issues, and that women and men interact with each other with the same kind of Social Code involved. Okay, um, talk a little bit about the social historical context of my documents. Having said that, it was important to understand cultural specificity. These come out of the city of Rome in a period in which the Pope was not just the spiritual leader of all Christendom, but the secular ruler in the city and in a fairly large territory of Central Italy. In the 16th, and 17th century. The city is a big one, it's a city of neighborhoods, with people know each other and all that kind of that kind of sense of community that people live in the streets a great deal. And that there's a lot of public space, a lot of public interaction, which is the stuff that you see in the court trial, defense, it's problems that arise in the streets, but life is very much in the streets so that you see a lot of what really matters to these people, but Seeing their public behavior. The city is made up of a lot of transplants. It's a very mobile population, people who come to the people center to get justice to issue petitions to make money to do works of art to decorate the buildings and the palaces and churches, pilgrims who want to come and get blessings, tourists who want to have a good time. This is a whole sort of swirling, very fluid population. A very, very large number of clerics, obviously, clergyman, both male and female, but especially male. And a lot of other people started coming and going. So it's, it is a world with this sense of the kind of social fluidity, you find the same honor code in other Italian cities, which are not identical in this, but it's certainly very appropriate and very much fits with the plan that the city of Rome had at that point. The court from which these documents come are it's a regular criminal court under the post offices, and this is to be distinguished from the church courts, which had jurisdiction over matters of morals, whether or not marriages are properly constituted, and so on. So that there was there were other courts, which dealt with some of these kinds of issues. So these were issues which were seen to be criminal in one way or another. The courts used Roman law, and were what we call inquisitorial in the sense that they did not proceed with the assumption that you were innocent, until proven guilty, but something closer to the opposite. Charges were laid, either by somebody who suffered from a Unknown Speaker 31:57 crime Unknown Speaker 31:59 or could be also be initiated by some individual who wanted to use the court system as a vehicle for serving their own personal political ends. People would not just use the courts because some crime that happened, but they would decide whether or not whatever problem that they've had, could be advanced by bringing in the public authorities so that they're not there's an element of choice about whether or not people will bring certain kinds of issues to court. And sometimes officials of the government policemen service, police forces, anything like it's coherent or even beneficent, to the extent the modern police forces are they largely a bunch of songs. But there's you sometimes will get officials who encounter some kind of public disorder and a whole bunch of people and befall them by charges, because something some way public authority is offended, rather than the individual victims benefit. But in many cases, with these court cases, these trial records, we don't know how the case came to court or why. And that's often a very interesting question that you're trying to figure out from, from the evidence and the transcripts itself. Why is this case important? Who cares? And whose interest is it to be bringing this chart? Usually, what you have is a defendant who has been ticked up and arrested by the police force and thrown in jail. And often they'll pick up not just a particular person that they think may have done something, but all the people that he's with are all the people who happen to be in some some general area of time problem arise. And so that by being arrested and being imprisoned does not mean that there's a formal charges have been laid about against you, but just you happen to be in an awkward place. This is the way they're going to cope with it. Then these people are taken out of their prison cells and taken to some kind of an office and they'll start interrogating them. And usually, the court has some notion about why the people are there, but they don't tell them. Very often. The first question is, do you know why you're here? The obvious hope on the part of the court is that these people will either confess to something or may even tell them about something else that was going wrong, but they didn't know what's happening. So it's very much a fishing expedition and these interrogations. And people will say, very frequently, why haven't the slightest idea why I'm here because that's of course the only safe answer. And then you hope in the course that the court will latch on to you in the course of their questioning what it is, at least they think you were involved in. That would be a problem and when you can try to figure out how to make your story. Make you look as unhealthy as possible. Once you've figured out what it is you're supposed to have done or been involved in. It People are interrogated individually, what we have is records of what would have marked something like our pretrial hearings, but they're not public. They're not nobody else is present, at least in the first interrogation, you know, you're there with the court officials. And you have to make up histories to go along. And you don't know what the other dyes are going to say. One of the court standard techniques is to get three or four people to tell the story and then to start pressing them on the inconsistencies among several stories. So it's a hearing, but it's a very Unknown Speaker 35:34 inquisitorial kind of hearing. Victims who are not themselves considered complicit in criminal activity are usually interrogated in their own homes, rather than in the prisons or in the courts offices, Unknown Speaker 35:50 depends upon the people's, whether the court will bother to go to the moment, ask them to come into the office. Certainly not all of the witnesses that we there are in prison themselves, but are usually either people who have brought the charges or who were involved in some way or whatever went wrong. Who, once they've done that, then they'll go back and re interrogate people, and ask them a whole set of new set of questions responding to what they've heard from the various the first round of interrogation. And then they have a mechanism of confrontation, which is maybe the first time that you see your accuser, or that you can. And the whole confrontation mechanism, in some ways is built, uses the full honor kind of ethic, the notion that somebody has to face up to somebody else, and tell the story and lay themselves open to charges of lying. And this is very much fits the whole consciousness of the problem about saying to somebody, well, you're a liar to your face. That's a real insult. That's a lot worse than saying something about them behind your back, which the first interrogation kind of situation would have allowed you to do. And so the court mechanism itself, if it decides to use this mechanism, device confrontation, will play with all of that honor code sort of stuff in the actual procedure. And finally, if they can't sort things out, by those kinds of mechanisms, they even resort towards that sometimes. And the torture in this case is not intended to necessarily to elicit new information, although sometimes they use it that way. It's often simply to get people to confirm the truth of what they've already said, they have two opposing stories, and everybody swears in the face of each other that he's lying, and he's lying, and they can't sort it out. They often will torture one or both of the parties, even including the one who may indeed be innocent, not charged in the case at all, to verify the truth of what they're saying, the theory being if under torture, you persist in saying that it's really true, well, maybe it's true, or at least you have more certainty that it's true. If you're willing to place of considerable discomfort to persist. But the torture device is not an excuse, often but not consistently. It's not a necessary part of the procedure. Okay, they're all kinds of different cases that come to this court, the standard sort of things you'd expect theft and murder and abuse of power by various officials and nobles and things of this sort, libel cases, some sexual offences, sodomy, sleeping with Jews, which was seen as dimensions of public disorder, there will not been not just sort of private morals, crime, but which would normally go with this other church part. Prostitution itself was not a crime. And people did not get hauled in because they were prostitutes. There are a lot of prostitutes and court documents because they live in a world which is filled with disorder, and people are always making trouble and getting into trouble are the sort of people who can prosecute, but the prostitution itself is not criminal. The two kinds of situations which I've brought up today to highlight, particularly these themes of honor and shame, in relation to gender, are one, the first kind of cases and the first two documents which I think people were there at the beginning at least have read. A couple more of these cases of when I argue are more or less ritual forms of shaming. Somebody you're disgruntled with by attacking his house and by making a fuss in the street, out in front of the house, in such a way that the neighbors and the public and everybody will look on and say, See, so and so must have done something despicable and shameful, because this person sees fit to revenge himself or herself by attacking the house. But following the house, throwing insults, singing songs, and in general sort of bringing public attention to the first the house of the person with whom they have been affected. And then the other, much longer case that I brought is one which involves an abduction of the girl and belongs. It's a somewhat anomalous case because she's, in fact, not charging that she was. Unknown Speaker 40:51 she'd lost her virginity in this case, but there's a whole group of cases around girls been raped, and most of the community in the process rape itself is not a standard crime. taking somebody's virginity is a crime. Adultery is a crime. But it's immoral behavior, you have to answer to the church for these other things. But it's not it's not criminal in the sense that the public authorities put you on trial for rape, except if it's a virgin, or deceptive. It's a married woman, in which case, it's a different kind of crime. It's not the adultery, the CSU, not the rape. So there's a very different notion about what is sexually abusive, what is actually from the weekend. Okay, um, the material that I've given you is translation, obviously, from Italian. It's, the material is very valuable, because it's essentially verbatim, describes, it's there in Whitestone pieces, it hasn't been condensed, it hasn't been summarized, it hasn't been done. This doesn't mean that there aren't errors, it doesn't mean that the notary may not in some cases, here in certain ways, which are consistent with his concern. But it's as close as anything I've seen to non elite people talking about themselves in their experiences. And as a result, I've given it to you in a reasonably raw state I've tried to make it into they tend to talk in sentences about six miles long, you know, comma, and summer and summer and and that makes it very hard to read in English. So I've got a little bit of manipulating with the punctuation. So but I've tried not to sort of translate out some of the flavor of the language. Because I think that's one of the important dimensions of this material. Not just what people do with how they talk about what they do, and how they present themselves. But you can see what their stuff. Through this, you have to start with trying to figure out what on earth happens, when that's all it is often not obvious, we have several different people's stories, and they will not want to agree about what actually happened. Sometimes we never know about some details that usually come without some kind of pattern closable narrative events. Then there are questions about what I call the micro political interests of the people who are involved. What's their situation in life? What's the situation in society? How is this trial going to affect them? And therefore, how are they going to try to shape the story that they're going to tell about this particular incident? To accommodate where they're trying to get to? That's very closely associated, of course, with their motives. Why are they doing this? What's in it for them? And it's, it's in that area, particularly where I think you have to think about and say, honor was one of the issues. I'm not saying that in any case, people will do the honor thing rather than something else, but it's something they have to deal with. It's something they have to think about. And then there's the whole issue of language and rhetoric, the way the way they've chosen to talk about it. Almost the study itself is hard to do in his translation, translated versions, not emphasize that but I think it's a very important dimension of this kind of study. Unknown Speaker 44:37 Okay, in the cases of the first two documents, excerpt from the first two cases about damaging and the following windows Unknown Speaker 44:50 as far as I can understand, and I have to pursue this further in the Roman law texts, appropriate period. This is criminal because it makes public uproar. But these cases are brought, again, not by the public authorities because there was a lot of raucous on the night. But it usually brought by the two people who are attacking themselves. And in the two cases, certainly in one case, and I suspect in both the cases here and and a number of other elsewhere, it is prostitutes, we're bringing the cases, going to the public authorities to say, I've been offended. These guys are insulting me and treading on my toes. And it's unacceptable. Why not? Please do something about? I think that's particularly interesting, because prostitutes, of course, is supposed to be women about what does it mean to make a ritual shaming? Shame prostitutes in a ritual fashion, if they already have no shame. I mean, what's in it for the guys, and why? It's interesting that the women themselves feel they must feel that they have some kind of honor, which is being offended, or they would not go to the public authorities for redress. There's nothing else in it for them. I mean, some possible sense of personal danger, although in most cases, it's fairly clear that the people, the man who are making these classes aren't going to go beat him up, aren't going to break into the house, there are a couple of cases where that happens. It's a different kind of crime. It's a different kinds of trial, when there's actually an assault on a breaking into the house, or just casting shame upon the house is itself a damaging thing, and it's damaging to the honor of these prostitutes not relevant to their any other political material. Unknown Speaker 46:56 No, that kind of harm isn't very likely to come to them. technologist so certainly she, she is concerned that this guy is not paying her. But she isn't going to go on sleeping with him simply so they'll pay or some more. Unknown Speaker 47:29 She has, I think, taking a certain amount of initiative here, she feels somewhat in control of this relationship. And she's saying, Look, no, it's not worth it to me. Don't come back. Here, this was three weeks ago. Now does he say? Oh, well, there are plenty of women in town, which they certainly are. The neighborhood she lives in is now full of prostitutes, many, many of them. It's all very open and very public. And there's nothing Sandestin or sort of, dangerously secret about any of this. So he throws him out. And he comes back for spite, every night with servants and others, to knock on my door and throw stones in order to insult me. As she sees it, it's not the physical assault that so much follows or as the insult, the throwing stones, the bringing servants, bringing a gang of people, it's not a personal fight between the two of them anymore, he sort of brought in reinforcements. In order to make this public show. It makes it really gets much more attention if there are five of them, or six of them and so on. But if he just comes to personnel, like there are some cases in which it's a much more individual thing, they the same kind of behavior, but an individual guy hasn't succeeded in getting any of his friends and so on to come along. These things always happen in the middle of the night, rather consistently. So partly because it makes more, it's more visible. It's also safer, because the guys know that they're not supposed to do this and they might get into trouble with the police and so on. And so there seems to be some some concern to protect their identity. And that's easier to do in the night. And there's all sorts of testimony in these cases without How did you identify this person? Wasn't really so and so how could you tell when it was dark? So that that certainly is an issue. Okay, so we get this throwing stones over and over again. Night after night after night, yelling of insults, the yelling of insults at the servant and the singing of songs for sexual innuendo. don't want accusation and so forth. The translation of the songs is one of the most challenging. The whole exercise, it's really very hard to one find. There are no dictionaries with 16th century Roman slang, or at least they're very incomplete and you have to, and then to get the nuances right, to get to correspond to the nuances of our abusive sexual vocabulary is very tricky. So what you have here is a highly approximate effort on my part, to get some sense of Unknown Speaker 50:34 what it was they were singing to her. But it's interesting again, the accusation in the song of damage, some people in the purse, Unknown Speaker 50:45 charge the money in some way, which is abusive or something, and some in the face. Again, this concern about the face is a reflection of the person, the person who is what a person presents to the world. And so says, you deserve the shame we are throwing at you now, because you presumably have shamed somebody in some way you can't tell us this part of the song we don't know how immediately appropriate to the situation as it was a sort of standard zone using I simply can't say okay, she's had enough with it. The longer able to stand this and so on. The accused doings me every night, she goes to the authorities. And evidently, from what later trans transpires in the story, she goes and talks to the authorities, and they say, well, we'll come and see, you know, we'll look into it this evening. And so that night when Jelani Dominica when his various friends show up, and carry on as they have before, and then in this case, they sing a song about a mule driver. And again, I'm not exactly sure to which piece of the mule, the mule driver, this song about long and round and square and short. But again, and then they start breaking again, this is all in salt. The whole point of this is to, to make a public fuss and to derive cast chain upon the house of the person. This is all directed. And they go off again, and then at that point, the police arrive, the prostitute invites them in and tell the police all about what's happening again, read police is a bunch of a guy with a bunch of thugs who happen to be in the pay of the state instead of somebody else. And then the tormentors come back again. And in this case, the lyrics of the song about air and sky and earth and fire and see seem to have rather changed. And it's not clear why this song in this context and what's wrong with it. That I hope becomes a little clearer later. Some more insults again. The nature of why it's insulting I have yet to figure out why offering somebody go vegan and go this associated with things sexual but why is offering somebody a quarter of a vote for dinner, which is a perfectly plausible thing to eat for dinner is part of the same whole sort of rhetoric of Enceladus, I'm not quite sure. Okay, and so they arrest the guys. And she goes to the authorities the next morning and makes this formal complaint that's reiterated here, beginning of the case. The next thing we have anybody have any thoughts or comments about what she says? Saying you can strike your body but I haven't said Unknown Speaker 53:52 when she says that she's no longer able to stay with us. Unknown Speaker 53:57 It's very hard to Unknown Speaker 54:01 understand, you know, that's the that's, I mean, that's a cognate translation of what you said into Lanthier. And I'd love to know more about colloquial language and and that's again, one thing I really would like to pursue more Italian has, in colloquial use, even now, a lot of words to us seem like big words, because they're Latin made and they're part of our educated vocabulary, which in Italian are less highfalutin, because the Latin Italian connection is much more direct and they simply will take the sort of creating the vernacular, they simply carried across so it's an interesting question, but I would have to go study whether or not that seemed to be anomalous, what it is, other people you would use the same term in other contexts without a particular procedure. It's an interesting, interesting area to think about. In general, I'm impressed by how much these women do not think of themselves as the loneliest of the low and the in the gutter with nothing to say for themselves, and there's a fear of various kinds of indications of self esteem. But I think that come through these Unknown Speaker 55:25 just because he's Unknown Speaker 55:26 been rejected by I mean, that's what's happened. She's rejected this Yeah. Unknown Speaker 55:33 Right. I mean, this is there some kind of private portal and you know, she, she sees herself as taking the initiative, and that would certainly fit with his taking umbrage at it and feeling you know, well, it's not just well, there's another woman, although down the street, but that she is in some way offended him, maybe doesn't Unknown Speaker 55:50 feel that she has the right to do. Right. No, I think that maybe meant maybe the prostitutes view of himself as one this is. Maybe that's I don't know how the men look at prostitutes. Are they capable of being the mothers of the children? And when they marry them? Or did the women have a certain view of themselves? Unknown Speaker 56:14 I suspect that there was a different view on the part of the men and certainly, as I say, I mean, the the mainstream cultural version of things and Christian sort of standard position is, you know, being a prostitute is not a good thing. There's certainly mean that that kind of attitude is certainly very, very well established. And I'm quite certain that these men did not have enormous personal respect for these women in all cases, although, in some instances, there seem to be a real personal relationship. Just time, Unknown Speaker 56:51 if they're using words, like in Spanish, because somebody doesn't necessarily mean they're professional prostitute, it could just mean that you are a woman who takes lovers. Unknown Speaker 57:07 Or does it mean that they take mother's? Unknown Speaker 57:11 Well, she's getting paid for it. I mean, because that's why she threw him out because he wasn't paying her Unknown Speaker 57:21 pain, when we think of prostitutes, getting paid right? of sex for money, Unknown Speaker 57:28 which is, like, what you would think of right here. Unknown Speaker 57:34 But this here says Unknown Speaker 57:35 that he didn't take care of which Unknown Speaker 57:38 sounds it didn't give me anything to live on, or any money at all? No, that's a standard right? away who says? Unknown Speaker 57:48 No, I think I kind of, you know, female over these unsupported cultural dynamics, exposure to support. Unknown Speaker 57:54 So I think it's somewhere in between. I mean, I, it's a very interesting question. It's one of the things I'm in the process of, I mean, not when I've read enough of these things, and so on, I will be more willing to make clear definition. I think it's somewhere in between. I mean, as I say, as far as I can tell, these women are not, you know, doing sort of servicing a lot of males on a sort of mass basis. Sheer Cass Nexus, absolutely no connection kinds of it's not that kind of prostitution at all. On the other hand, they certainly seem to have numbers of lovers. And there certainly seems to be an understanding that there's some exchange of money for service. The services provided are not exclusively sexual. Except that it's not legal, and it's not permanent. And it's not a wife has a very different status. And these people are labeled in the courts. It's bolted down there. That clearly is a category when the point of priests goes around and does the the Easter census. You listened everybody by name. Very often, they are asked to indicate which people haven't done their Easter confession and which ones are pressed. So there is certainly a cultural conception that from the church's point of view, this is a class of people who are a problem. They aren't just sort of common law wives who happen not to have regularize the situation. But on the other hand, they are not just selling sexual services on an impersonal basis. This is analogous to Unknown Speaker 59:26 711 Right, Unknown Speaker 59:32 well, certainly these ones. Right. Right. It's sometimes usually I think these men are not living permanently in the house. They hang out there, they spend the night there, but certainly there may be certainly several levels of time. I mean, not one one day, one night, one day the next night. But certainly these are not exclusive, monogamous, temporary relationships. I don't think it's it's a very interesting set of questions and just how was it you define the nature of this relationship they talked about, about lovers, these that would have Miko as a lover, and then there's the Miko fan animal, who is literally the firm friend, I mean, that that's somebody who takes more responsibility for you. Although as far as I can tell, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're only with him for the duration of his being that kind of person to you. They seem to see other people, too, but this is somebody who has taken a fairly large responsibility for you on a temporary, maybe a fairly long term basis. So they do make distinctions and they have a sense of different kinds of clients, and so on. But no, that's very much things I would have in mind to like, assume. I think anybody else. Okay, I'd like to go on and look at his side of the story. Again, one of the things I like about this material is I'm very much interested in gender history, not just women's history and electricity demand side of this side of the story. And think these things aren't necessarily interactive, and ideas about maleness and femaleness are better understood. Or at least, there are dimensions of them, which are, can only be understood by looking at the contact and the interaction process. Okay. We don't know exactly what Giovanni Domenic goes. position in life is it doesn't say anywhere talks about what birth whereas his friends do for a living, but it doesn't talk about him specifically, we know He lives in rented rooms, which suggested sort of a man on his own, without about a household. Very likely, in the service of some cardinal or noble or something in one of the big families in Rome, or passing through one one kind of business or another for the family, that sort of temporary resident of the city, I suspect. And he, again, he's one of these people who's been asked, Well, why were you arrested? And he says, Well, I was arrested under the circumstances. And talks about having met this, Mr. Alexander was up at the end the night before, and asked him if he wanted to go out singing necessarily Zondra was it becomes clear later, he has a guitar with him. And he seems to be somewhat more accomplished musician, some of the others, and divided medical bumped into him in the street and says, Hey, you want to get to serenade somebody, as far as I understand it. And Alexander says, well, he doesn't really think he has enough voice. He has COVID says, in his own testimony, and so givani office in the drink, they go to the tavern. And each of them is accompanied by a couple of other guys. In each case, they don't know each other, there's their names, which are not known these guys hang out together, they're gonna recognize to recognize each other, but they don't always know names. Now, partly, they want to avoid knowing names to the front of the court, you don't want to implicate people if you can avoid it. On the other hand, it's very striking that these groups of males seem to sort of congregate and come apart without any very clear sense of who everybody is. And that kind of pattern you see elsewhere and other materials. So they all had a drink together, and then they go out and sort of wander around town. And as Divani dominical presents it, they just happen to end up in front of the house of this former lady friend of his. And so he suggested to his friend, Alessandra with a guitar that he should sing a little and he sang some love songs. And then, unexpectedly, the police were out of the house arrest at all. We very clearly is trying to put the nicest construction on it that he can and do not admit to anything that might be considered incriminating or insulting. He says that was really Alessandra said this thing to John McDonnell about the boat Unknown Speaker 1:04:27 and so on. Isn't asked a bunch of other questions. And then he goes on. He's asked about his relationship with Joanna the prostitute. She said he says he's known Jonah since the last harvest season and he's had sex with him many times. But some time ago, a particular date. He hasn't been there. I was gonna say earlier that he makes reference here to going and visiting her with another friend on one occasion thereafter. But he didn't spend the night these prostitutes are obviously used as places for you know evenings entertainment, non sexual basis to they go when they hear music, they play cards they hang around their back sort of private cells or living with do something for these guys who have no have no homes. You go with friends, and sometimes if you might say the night and sometimes you might say the night, I know, several people will come in and one of them will say no to leave, and so on. So if they're these women are providing sexual services, certainly, but not exclusively, there'll be some social escort, whatever you want to call it kind of services. They're also offering. And then he goes on and says, I've had words with Giovanna and quarrel with her about because of jealousy. Again, what's, what's the meaning of being a knight isn't clear about who was jealous of whom, presumably Unknown Speaker 1:06:02 it's more likely that he was the jealous one, that he wanted to have her to Himself, at least for the duration of his interest. But he isn't clear about it. But he does admit that they've had a fight. Again, you don't bother to fight with people, you don't have a relationship where there's some kind of emotional exchange going on here. But afterwards, we made peace. And again, he uses this notion of an almost formal kind of sense of, we had a fight, and then we've made things up. But the words he uses are the same ones you use when you're rectifying one of the affairs of owner, peacemaking is, is an idea, which has kind of resonance is not just sort of making up. Everybody agreed to forgive and forget kind of why this is somewhat stronger poll. And then he claims that he decided to leave her. He was the one who initiated the break. And the reason why is that his father was tired of this fooling around, you know, it wasn't gonna pay him any support any longer if he didn't show up and do whatever it was he was supposed to be doing instead of hanging out with a prostitute. Unknown Speaker 1:07:21 So he tries to sort of talk around the situation, he admits to no winner. He admits to having had dealings with her of a more than truly sexual assault, which would make it more plausible that he would care when the thing broke up. Again, if it was merely a temporary and personal transaction, why bother to make a fuss in the three afterwards. And he but he wants to reclaim the initiative, he doesn't want to leave her as the one responsible for having kick him out. And then I stuck this other bit in it's not directly relevant to the case. But it fits with this whole pattern of ritual insults. He's asked whether anybody else is insulted or whether it's you know, she's undergone and had this kind of problem with anybody else. And the top picks he says that, on two occasions, she's reported that other people have the startled her door. This means either throwing in sometimes it means throwing shit. Literally dirty in the door, the doors and the windows. Again, sometimes it's the role that these again, usually the sense the, the orifices of the building, or the way you get between, you know, get through the house through the boundary, to the person inside is through the doors and the windows, and the bows of the places where you want to send the bad stuff again, to make it visible. And here reports to incidences of this I have a whole series of cases. It doesn't only happen between prostitutes and their lovers, the same kind of behavior is used. The next case is between two women, which is why it's stuck in this epoch this next little bit. And men do it to men in certain instances or households do it to households in which men and women together connive in organizing one of these. I don't know what the quality was, but really just isn't the it's not a squeamish, does. It just isn't the word that the conveys what is happening in these incidents. Unknown Speaker 1:09:51 And then the final bit of testimony that I didn't include here on this case of Jonah is the story from the point of view of the guy with the far. And it becomes fairly clear that he sort of got roped into it, and really didn't have too much to do with it. He didn't know the woman, he didn't really even know Giovanni Domenico. By sight in the street. He certainly didn't know his friends very well. And because he had a guitar, Giovanni Domenico decided, you know, why not? He's already committed this kind of thing. Presume nights and nights. Why not embellish the occasion by getting the guy with a guitar to come and add to the, to the general raucous. But let's just the guy saying he doesn't sing this and something stuff. He sings a love song. And this is a piece of fairly standard popular love, love lyric of the period. And in that segment, it's It's oddly out of context and widened that that piece of that lyric that was at the end of her testimony that seems so different than tone about the sea in the sky. And what was needed in October to do is, in fact, a very different genre of song. And it's there because this poor guy was called up, you know, he didn't know what he was serenading the woman for he just was, because that was, pertained to him what he felt like singing. As far as we can tell, he really was somewhat innocent. And the court, in fact, seems to take it that way. And as the case proceeds, it focuses on Giovanni de medical and one of his compatriots, and the others are not being interrogated. At any length, and so on. They obviously think that the culprits are the ones who manifest themselves, one of their friends. Unfortunately, with these things, one we very, we can't be very seldom if ever see the actual judgments of the trial. And this is I say, sort of pre trial stuff. Then there's, in written form, all of this stuff goes to the judge, who then adjudicates on sentences written up, if, if it gets that far, sometimes the case is just never pursued. It's very, very hard, we have some surviving sentences that they practically never match up if you can, if you can survive, it's a separate set of documents. They often are handed down months or years later. And to match them up is very, very difficult. And certainly, if you go through the appropriate years, or even positive, appropriate years, I've not done couple of dozen cases I've looked at and actually see how that contributes to the synchronicity story. You don't you don't get the last chapter. Unknown Speaker 1:12:43 Okay, I think in that case, it's reasonably clear what I mean that what she said happened happened, because you can tell from the case that she's not making it up. And some of the people who were involved were involved, more or less tangentially in the court. response to that. gonna spend a little time on my, my abduction case. So I didn't want to look at the next one in too much detail. But I included it here, one, because it's an example of women playing these games with other women. But in this case, the woman who is has feels that she has been insulted gets men to do to make most of the raucous for her again, it's something which happens over several different nights. And in the first instance, a bunch of men appear at the door and there's a class of insults and that she has worn to mind her manners and her tongue and so on. So she tells them to wander around. But the next night that this thing happens, the woman who sells who is angry, who's been offended, shows up with the man she's and we don't know whether she's paying them we don't know how she's motivated to do this thing for her but and she herself is labeled by distinctly as a as a prostitute. How comes with them dressed as a man, again, this notion of wanting to hide her identity and not be involved directly. And she makes the more promise not to admit that she's there but she laughs and talks and the people who are listening at the window recognize that it's a woman's voice and they know who's likely to be involved and so on. But it's it's the same pattern but with the offender is is female and is but does it herself that doesn't with the assistance of men. And there are other other separate cases Okay, I'd like to the one that a little time looking at the next one, it goes on and on and on want to read a couple of read Unknown Speaker 1:15:12 page five and Page seven media seven, eight, a little bit of her testimony in his testimony. Unknown Speaker 1:16:13 You It fits in with a group of other cases where I say that whether or not the woman, the girl is raped or loses her virginity with complicity or otherwise fits into this. It doesn't in fact, seem to be an issue here. And the woman herself the girl herself, agrees that sometimes back in the past when he was a little girl, I'm not sure whether you've gotten to that part yet. Summarizing. Some man spent some time in bed with her doing what he would. And she wasn't exactly sure whether or not she technically lost her virginity or not. But she certainly wasn't making claims that what this guy had done was the flour. Although one of the issues that doesn't is important to the circumstances of the trial. And we wish there really is controversy is whether or not Bernardino had any sexual relations, whether or not he didn't see flour that we think we can agree on whether or not he had sex with her at all, is something that they disagreed about. But in any case, it's fairly clear that he carried her way. And that in itself would be criminal. The real problem here, and it's reasonably easy to construct a narrative of what happened, the real problem is notice. And it's there that what she thinks about her honor and thinks about her honor and his own honor, and so on, all come into play. The first just sort of a bit of summary. She is one of several sisters. There's also a brother in the family who seems to have gotten involved in some kind of murder and gotten himself pardon, but this family's already has some slight blemish on reputation perhaps her father was dead. He was a bride goods merchant. So it's a sort of a middling City's over family. We don't know how rich they are. But I mean, they're not the very lowest of the lows of life, nor are they in any way. That was the kradic. Her mother is still alive and seems to be trying to run a family of children including the brothers, the murders people in these various sisters and altavia, who appears to be the youngest of the children, at least the youngest of the ones who gets mentioned in the crowd. And she gets to taking music lessons from a man who's introduced to the family through a man who marries a cousin marry somebody in the music teacher was a friend of the cousin and by that route is introduced to them and she loves music and he agrees to give her music lessons and so on. He says in his testimony, he's a music teacher, he will you know, he'll teach anybody who pays now as far as we can tell her where she is not paying, and why he persists and teaching music to her for two years. For no pay, except for a couple of handkerchiefs to forgive him with kindness. Thank you. It was one of the motive questions, that's somewhat problematic. But anyway, this relationship is established between the girl and the teacher. And after it's been going on for some length of time. She who obviously has problems with a family and the girl who has problems with her family starts confiding in the music teacher and with the plan that he or she can persuade him to take her away and get her out of this difficult situation at home. And so she tells him all the secrets she confides in him. And she leans on him fairly hard to arrange things so that she can escape and he can help her escape. Now she claims, she uses the language of love, he says, He loves me, and I love him. There's, it's not this, this guy happens to be available as my music teacher, but there's some emotional relationship between us. And the language of affection. And this stuff is always very interesting, because it's not the standard vocabulary, they usually talk about things in terms of either of honor or have issues of dowry and money. And those kinds of that's what the court wanted to talk about. And before. I mean, they clearly had feelings of affections and things, but it's not. It's not rhetoric, we get to another commonly, from these kinds of people. And it's always interesting, it does appear and where it's seem to be relevant when you do something, because you like somebody will have somebody as it's a legitimate motive for action Unknown Speaker 1:22:03 is somewhat unusual. And she certainly talks about it introduces it. Early on, in her testimony, there's at least one component in this relationship that she's trying to describe. Okay, she claims that he kissed her on one occasion, this phrase about forcing my hand I'm not, I can't figure out whether that means, so to speak, took her hand and then kissed her or what it doesn't seem to mean forcing her hand and our sense of the idiom, making her do something really serious. As far as I can tell. And finally, she says she persuades him after much begging persuading of him to make an arrangement to carry her away. It took so long because he resisted, he didn't want to take her away. Now one issue, which is not included in this party read that he's got a wife, he's got a wife in Spain. So he's not able to marry, at least until the wife is dead. At some point in the trial, of course of events, there's some indication that there will be get word, maybe the wife has died. But whether or not the wife is alive, or the wife is dead, is a problem. But certainly he at the beginning of this doesn't feel free to indulge this girl's fantasy that he's going to marry her and tells her that she has a wife, and therefore, whatever it is she wants him to do by carrying her weight, it can't be married, which is odd. And it's one thing to get this guy to carry off and marry her then she's then she's set up simply to get this guy to carry her off and leave her so it's much, much more coming. But what is it what's what is she aiming at? remains very much a question that she admits in her testimony from beginning He hesitated to carry me off the duck me because he said My people will call me a traitor. Okay, because language of betrayal, again, is very much turns up with this honor code stuff, that the family is responsible to itself, and that if she runs away, she will be dishonouring the family will therefore be a traitor to the family. And so he is concerned that she is going to betray her family is that's what he says. The way he tries to explain that he doesn't want to carry the work and use that as a counter argument. He calls up the whole honor repertoire of concepts and says to her, Don't lay this dishonor on your family don't aggravate them by this behavior rather than talking about himself and what his problems would be. But finally she prevails upon him and he tells a story about leaving her sister out the fire in the bed and then sneaking down again and sneaking out of the house. And bernadina was there and he takes it to an end. And they spent the night together. And she says he had sex with her. He denies it. Unknown Speaker 1:25:19 She dresses in men's clothing, again. In many ways, this is just a very practical thing. It's a way of Unknown Speaker 1:25:29 not attracting attention. And they make their way out of the city and down toward Naples. They're going to Naples because Naples is another political jurisdiction, it's outside of territory. And it's worried it's where you escaped to when you want to get out from under the the local authorities and sort of the nearest place to, to him for but somewhere they travel the next day and they go to another end, and somebody gets suspicious. And Bernardino is picked up and interrogated and gathered rather mildly by the local authorities. And then he's turned loose and goes back and joins in again. And then, as far as I can tell, the brother has caught on to this and figured out where they're going, catches up with them, arrives in town goes to the authorities and says there's a man here with my sister, and they go and the guy is definitively arrested, pulled back to Rome where he is interrogated. So that's more or less what happened. The question is, why did she do it? Why did she want to go away? Why was it the legitimate option? Or what did you think she was going to get out of it? And why is he Why does he talk he resisted first? What are his motives? Why does he How does he talk about it? And why does he ultimately get in? Why does he go with it? What's what's in it for him to do this thing, which ultimately gets him in fairly hot rod. I talked earlier about his being married because very often you see fairly elaborate stratagems worked out involving her family, his family, her and him often in various combinations. Arranging the flowerings arranging abductions, in order to embarrass other people into allowing a marriage to take place, it becomes part of a set of mechanisms even that, you know, you can adopt to get yourself into a compromising situation, so that in order to rectify it to people who want to get married, or somebody who wants to catch somebody else, and force him to his daughter, or whatever, can can throws the issue. But because the guy is married, and because she says he talked about wanting to marry or if he were free, she says she never agreed to marry. She says she resisted his efforts to have her make a vow not to marry anybody to him. It's about a wait until his wife was bad and was about to wait until she he would be free so that they could get married. She doesn't buy that. He doesn't say Unknown Speaker 1:28:24 maneuver Unknown Speaker 1:28:25 in order to get him to get a commitment from him. And in order to get him to be more explicitly says that's what he's not doing is not a practical thing to do to be certain that his wife is still alive and might still be alive. Whatever. Unknown Speaker 1:28:43 She says her mother is impossible. Now that relatively familiar kind of situation, but it's fairly radical action to take simply to get away from the impossible mother. And she seems Unknown Speaker 1:29:00 to be willing to throw over the hole on her business and she's doing something which is honest yourself, she makes her her very vulnerable. She will not be marriageable as easily as she's known who've been involved in escapade of this sort. And it obviously is very bad for the family to have a daughter who does that sort of thing. Unknown Speaker 1:29:28 To do this sort of thing. Unknown Speaker 1:29:33 The son was pardoned. And so that was okay. That's difficult. It's difficult to say neither was particularly desirable, although, again, murder in a duel. I mean, from the courts point of view, that's murder if it's simply the defense of honor. And by the sort of secular morality, lay morality that might be that depending on the circumstances, the murder whether or not certainly having the daughter run off his mother Yeah. It's particularly praiseworthy thing to have in the family reputation for marriages, that's that's loose, I think. Sure. So I think I think this is very much very important. She couldn't marry anybody else. She felt her mother was impossible. And there was no other way of getting out of the situation, she'd already lost her job and she lost her virginity. And on the other hand, it never is clear what she plans to do when she's left. There's there's this whole sort of side theme about this sort of family patron, Godfather type, I don't know exactly who got who was involved in getting the Sun card and, and who apparently there was some talk that he would marry that that he would be willing to overlook her fact, the fact that she took another salary. But that doesn't come to pass I, for some reason, he decides he doesn't want to have it. But just about the family's relationship to him is what he has done to her promise to her what she has agreed to do with him and so on is remains very up in the air. Unknown Speaker 1:31:23 You might well end up there. I don't know whether she was deliberately setting out on that tonight. On this matter? Sure, no, I mean, I have another case in which we have girls in an even more vulnerable situation even farther down the social scale. But as a partner who refused to marry them, they get caught up in the father eventually gets picked up for locking them up and getting into a brawl with somebody who may try to escape and so on. The father really is the source of the problem. But in their testimony, they make it very clear, there's two girls that they became so to speak Hamlet to prostitutes, because there was no other way out. I had no diary, the father refused to take responsibility for burying them off, it was a way to get money, they got some nice clothes out of it. But that is, you know, that clearly is an option, that if you haven't got anything else, take your honor and shove it. You might as well use what you have and make and do what you can. And I think there may be some of that involved here. I don't know how this is just Unknown Speaker 1:32:38 bringing your father makes me wonder too about the innocence of counting Unknown Speaker 1:32:45 the patient's personal or family and then talking about this Unknown Speaker 1:32:56 what was this? Was this Unknown Speaker 1:32:58 on? They don't they don't talk I've not seen evidence one way or another? No, no, I've not I've not seen any evidence one way or the other. But that was either a concern to them and or something which happened. And I simply can't speak to that they had certainly fairly strong ideas about incest with regard to rules, but he did merit that that's a very different sense of certainly whether or not there was a father, whether or not the father is taking his responsibilities for both taking care of his daughters materially in the sense of knowing and often seeing what they have dealt with and or taking care of their own is you get all sorts of variations on this material, what the father's role is, and what he doesn't know he doesn't do what ought to have done. And so the fact that there isn't any father is very often significant. If they're very often girls who get into these embarrassing situations or once they often have mothers and fathers. I think that's probably not I'm not sure how much did you read?