Unknown Speaker 00:01 This update can find a way of having an accurate impact on cases which are not the typical. sphere. Unknown Speaker 00:18 I guess what I find very interesting is that you say that the debate has shifted again now towards issues of equality and power, because it seemed to me, it was only about two years ago or three years ago, that it was a new emphasis on difference. And there's an indication that it's like a pendulum to some extent that swings back and forth in terms of the debate. And, and I think that has to do with both the difficulties of each project, you know, or each side of that project, and the necessity for them somehow to go together. The whole the question of difference when when it moves, you know, out of just the realm of reproductive rights, in a sense is so what it's so sweeping, it implies such radical changes, I mean, it really isn't very much a kind of revolutionary perspective, but also one that deals at every level, the psychological, as well as, as the social and the political and the economic, although all of those implications are there. In the United States, there's always been a tendency, and certainly that question of difference came up, and it was a major theme in the United States in the early 1970s. But then, when when women move into a practical political situation, or try to translate that into achievable goals, they tend to be expressed more in terms of power and equality, is there's like a problem of translation of a vision of difference. And these wide sweeping and very deep changes. And when it becomes translated, at least in the United States, it takes on a much more specific and concrete form in terms of questions of equality and power. And to some extent, that might be what happens in Italy, if there have been if there's been a kind of impasse of the feminist movement, if there have been difficulties if there's a sort of frustration with, with this whole question of difference and where you go from there, there might be then then a shift to achieving goals that are achievable in the short run, which gives it a more a more sort of concrete with political turn in terms of the quality, but I keep seeing those themes recur. And sometimes you feel like you're reinventing the wheel, you know, that the the theme of difference will come up again for the second or third time. And you remember when it came up the first time and what the discussion was? Yeah, no, Unknown Speaker 03:06 I wanted to I agree with you. The problem is one of translations. When I became involved with OD, I in becoming involved at all on the issue, I wouldn't probably I wouldn't have gone back a second time, if they told me that the idea was to be equal to man, I couldn't care less, I became involved. Because for instance, in all the theoretical background Wudi was the idea that women were different that they were going to change society. That was the whole theoretical background that comes out of a long story about how we can how in a way, already came into being a kind of even ideologies that sort of the all effort now, for instance, the whole idea of women working in order for women to work in great numbers, work has to change, society has to change the way US society spends his money and its resources has to change. That was all our background. Right? Then when you got right down to what were you asking for a national plan for daycare centers, which wasn't a liberal thing. It took us about 15 years to get that sort of thing. And it has produced a few 1000 daycare centers, well organized, not assistance like a number of things, but at talking victories. So, the thing is that when you want to bring that difference into society to change it, the task becomes so big, I mean, it is so you are you are up against the whole structure that is based on something else. And then you you when you try to translate exactly what you can translate are only talking symbolic victories. And because they are symbolic in a way they are not going to make the whole difference. First of all in the awareness of women And that's, that's a terrible point about this is a frustration that I, for instance, I've lived the life of me 1000s of women working with a union of Italian women, you had this tremendous political platform, the women were going to change society, then when you channel into the institutional possible goals, there were only talking indications because it couldn't be anything else is Unknown Speaker 05:31 more traditional, you had in the past, you have to say up to the work in particular, you have protective policies that mean policies, which are aiming at protecting maternity and so on various senses, or equality minded politics, again, equal pay, but value successes to these two things and innovate have worked right, then in what's happened in the late 70s was new families going to do something very different. And also in the working class, the new families claim to go beyond this traditional alternative between protection and equality, and to find what was going to serve way, which was different for me that and in this field, instead, while in the one line, it was easy to see the results. In the other field, it was easy to see the results you had to pay. And in the in this way, there was a cultural experience, but very few results, because there are alternatives. And they often dramatic and it is not easy to work out the third way. When you say anything that is the working schedule, or the this is the project come to the United States to the cancellation of the protectiveness, like we knew it was wave of equal opportunity. So if you can't see them, I'm not going to take the word for it. But it's an ideological solution. But it's sometimes diplomatic, because we allow women to do work shifts night where the ideological and answer says, we abolish what night shift for everybody. Okay, on the base. That is enough. So the problem is dramatic. Unknown Speaker 07:19 I see exactly what you're saying. And that level, and trying to find a position which you know, reconciles both, sometimes the problem isn't as difficult. For example, the one who sided of working at night or dangerous or noxious work conditions, you know, rather than take the position that women should be protected from these conditions, you know, because they are future mothers or, or current mothers or whatever, if you take the position, they shouldn't be abolished for everyone. That seems like you know, the correct position that instead represents that third way. But then the barriers that you come across are generally economic, and political in terms of changing the given structures of society. So in that respect, there's a certain way where I think the perspective of the feminist very much coincides with the perspective of the sort of revolutionary socialist if you want to put in that with the the, the implications for change are so sweeping, that what you're really talking about, is changing the economic and social and political organization of society. And somehow, I don't see the and you're oftentimes it is difficult to arrive at a position that, at least theoretically presents a solution. But I think the greater difficulty is even seeing the path you can possibly take to begin to implement some of those changes. And to some extent, I think it parallels and a time overlaps the impasse that the left is facing in Europe and that the left is facing in this country. Unknown Speaker 09:07 Whether you call it the more rootedness of the other issue of the what had two questions, what is on the issue of the fact that around the feminist movement in Italy was the dominant culture, which was Marxist, relatively speaking to the United States. Do you think that this made the feminist movement doing more effective, particularly politically than the United States? And my second question was, when you I'm interested in the kind of what you can't separate two cultural forms I wouldn't want to and I wanted to dress in precision, separatist separatism, and also basketball. Because of this country. separatism itself means something very specific. They grow up in the motherland. I'm usually looking for New Year's. I guess Dang, women want to have spaces. So what are your separator? So in which Congress? Unknown Speaker 10:12 Okay, I'll take the second question first because I was using separatist in the sense, simply have an autonomous structure for women within the context of the Union. In other words, it was a structure that was part of the Union had the backing of the Union, the finances of the Union, draws upon all of those resources, but was just for women. And more than that was autonomous, that the women in it could do what they wanted. Okay, you know, that's how you want to get stuck. Alright, so. Okay, this isn't tonight, what do you have to repeat this question? No, we're not quite sure why not? Okay. But no, this had to do with, with the general sort of Marxist culture that made the wealth of this movement more effective. Having those words were hard Unknown Speaker 11:14 to use, and sometimes are still hard to do. And some of us became difficult that was. So we gave it all up. But I just wondered that it made it more people more effective. That was that tradition of politics, or whether it slowed it down? Because it kept putting more embedded thinking in those kinds of masculine? Unknown Speaker 11:48 Yeah, I understand. Right? My perception is this, that, that, on the one hand, the high development of the left in Italy, both ideologically and theoretically, and organizationally and politically, was an advantage to feminists in Italy in terms of their own, you know, rapid political divide in the early 1970s, and, and like a whole discourse that they could be a part of, or step out of and, and dialogue with that that was that was positive. I think that it probably made for a more homogeneous feminist movement than here in the United States. were, you know, the, the women's movement, let's say in the United States has been so fragmented. But I don't know that it was ultimately a tactical or strategic advantage, in the sense that the left in Italy has been very seriously defeated. Since 1979, really? And so you can't say that it has made for greater victories for the Italian feminist movement, because the left itself has been so seriously defeated. Unknown Speaker 13:22 Yeah, no, I don't think it was a matter of ideology. I think I agree if I understand, Joanne's answer was not a matter of ideology was that the the general politics in a way provided for first of all provided for the feminist movement in general, whenever you know, this. tide came up for a possible identity with something that could be you could in a way even distinguish yourself distinguish yourself politically, but when you were a higher level, you were not fighting against conservative or reactionary views. So the feminism in a way gain its identity from distinguishing itself from something that already was revolutionary called itself or anyway certainly was not reactionary. As such, though it was perhaps sexually reaction as well, but it wasn't political reaction at all right. So that gave a sort of water in which to swim, which was obviously made, you know, easier. And it's so true that when that water in which to swim in a way I don't know, left the top for a number of reasons you call it a seriously defeat. I don't know if this I don't know if I can really describe the the left has been seriously defeated, but certainly sort of strategies that were there and being defeated and it's not very clear what they are. That doesn't mean that I don't know still the left does electorally tremendous strength And I don't know it is really part of a more general situation. I think also, it's not only a matter of Italy, it's also a matter of Europe, it's a matter of this word and the area we're going through. Okay, so but anyway, whenever that kind of possibility of identify itself with distinction from the left was not there, the feminist movement has lost some identity as a result of that. Now, the other thing is that obviously was easier certain things. For instance, let's take the issue of abortion now, as much as it was difficult as much as there isn't a law a tremendous loophole by this business of the culture gushy, anxious objectors. I, wherever, for instance, the fact that abortion is covered by Medicare of health system? Well, it has to do with the fact that easily is has hasn't been a more is more of a social, let's say socialized, I don't know. Yeah, it's more of the welfare state with that kind also, let's say of, you know, political awareness and, and self thing, cautiousness, and so forth, and that has come with, from having such a strong work, it's movement. And there's also before fascism, in a way the tradition and the words movement in Italy, one of the strongest one, after all in Europe. And so that helps, too, because a number of things could be put over, for instance, to help and in fact, that whatever this person has been always in line of the Union, so the Kenyan women, you can I mean, whatever kind of goals you had, as far as women had to be for all women, and men have to be shaped in a way that will not make some women privilege over others. The equality, the classic, why they let's say, that has always been, you know, a central a crucial part of the Emancipation fight in Italy, that makes also a difference. However, having said all this good things in a way, then you have a tremendous drawback, that when you have to refer to something that is politically revolutionary, and then is so deeply patriarchal, as far as the attitude, you trapped there, see, and this is what I feel in a way that all of us have been trapped. And in a way, we are still trapped, no matter what the ideology of feminism come in between in the 70s. Because it is so much ingrained, this patriarchal relationship between men and women and women internalize in a way so much that I still feel we are terribly subordinate. And it's it's not a matter of laws of institution and so forth. It's a matter of here. First of all, we are still terribly shy. Let's use that word. I am aware of that. And being one of those that that app, I am absolutely Unknown Speaker 18:19 fine, far and I'm not but I really am. I become immediately aggressive as soon as I confront a man immediately, because yet I realized that this is the result in a way. I never thought that they weren't superiors. Why do you all find the opposite? But yeah, I yet I realized in a way that if I look at the Chinese society, for instance, if I look at United States, I have to say we are more insubordinate. Why it's a matter of, I don't know, it's a matter of millennials. It's a matter of attitude, it's a matter of lacking or getting away with things. And that has happened politically as well. So in other words, women initially have strength politically when they're together when they express, but individually, they are much stronger as individual and I feel that all the time. All the time. The match was stronger. So we have our strength. It is really to express let's say that it political rebellion individually, we are much weaker than in many other countries perhaps. Unknown Speaker 19:43 Okay, sorry, I've talked too much. I think that that that terror did you Unknown Speaker 19:50 get what you're saying, which is that this is going to introduce a hand that are pessimistic and optimistic, but perhaps one of the commonalities The situation in the American situation, the problem. You talked a lot about, let's say the problem of translation, translating a global project of of radical social change. One of the problems is not just translation in an abstract sense, in terms of policy. But translation once you actually get inside institutions, how the institution itself and then you just refer to the patriarchy, the institution or the hierarchy, whatever the given nature of the political institution conditions, what you can actually ask for the ways in which you can actually struggle. And I find that some of the, some of the similarities between the canvas movement in Italy and in United States is precisely the moment in which movement, issue oriented movements. And I'm not saying the movement was limited to an issue. But let's say, we think that that movement struggled around four issues. Within the background perspective, of much wider political notion. The moment in which the movement makes the transition has to enter into institutional fights and struggles. What does it do? What form does it take, what new strategies can prevail? And I think in both United States and in Italy, here socialist or radical feminism, Italy, March segments are much more creative as it was there by what leftist ideology had tremendous difficulty making this bridge. And I think the change that you're referring to, in the last couple of years, which is called the Americanization of time, is because not so much that it's a reconsideration, perhaps the ultimate value of the egalitarian strategies, or the ultimate value and egalitarian ism. But it really is, hey, look at them and look at us. And they managed to get Women's Studies programs in place, they managed to get a foothold, perhaps not so much in terms of it to do traditional political power structure. But the whole notion in Italy of his opposition to institutional participation, which was ideologically pure, in many ways, ended up I think, a lot of times guys feel like they didn't get a lot of, of the small tangible results that we have here. However, we may we, as American feminists may evaluate those changes. Now. They seem quite large, quite substantial. Because I think that that whole issue around how you develop new institutional or political strategy is very similar in those situations, and totally a result. And I have a clue as to how you can resolve that I think it really is a strip now understanding the huge political differences in political context that you refer to I think that there was this really overwhelming similarity in that sense. And I feel pessimistic that because it means that even in a country like Italy was such a strong tradition, which then the family scene anyways, there's still Unknown Speaker 23:36 lots of some extent, it's the problem of of a kind of codification of victories and the ability of the system to absorb, and mold, you know, whatever was sort of new and alien does become absorbed in you know, I agree with you, it's a really serious problem. But I think it's a problem for the left in both countries in a general sense, as well as, you know, a problem for feminist movements. Unknown Speaker 24:01 Because it's basically like, framing the issue is, as well as the resistance, positive resistance of women is the negative resistance of work. Unknown Speaker 24:12 Well, let me end with the optimistic note, can I all right now for this thing, so not I don't know, maybe we're looking for an answer that is good at all times, maybe doesn't exist, and until it is good at all times, in a way it is true that a moment thinks of itself at some point in history with the strategy and what for instance, now, I consider it very important, this gender gap right now. I mean, if this is if somehow, you know, it wouldn't be visible that women could defeat now in the next elections, this kind of presidency. To me, that will mean a lot of things. It doesn't matter what it might mean politically, or institutionally But you would have, again, that sort of proof that when we will move, in a way you do have radical changes. And that is something that has happened. Now, in spite of all these things and little frustrated, and we might have said, it is true that, for instance, in this last 10 years, however, the thing that has, you know, that has meant more maybe with effects that are not visible immediately, but even within the parties within the union to question that type of hierarchical thing since I've had a lot to do with the existence of feminism and women. So, they are effects that may not, you know, reverberate immediately on women's life, but they do in build, you know, in society, some kind of deep changes. Now, for instance, I am very anxious to see what wish I could do more myself about this gender gap over here because in my opinion is one of those political moment that should be an you know, this should really be used, they should really be cropped in a way because it might make a lot of difference and not only for this country indirectly may make a lot of difference for a lot of women all over. So anyway, I just wanted to