Unknown Speaker  00:00
As you get more unemployed because your businesses move out of here, run away from the the power of the trade unions from your higher wages from your higher taxes. And they come where the costs of production are very low, and they maximize their profits. And you are made to pay us as people in the third world are taking our jobs. And we wonder Where are you because if you sincerely ask for justice, you should not be allowing the mess that is happening to continue. And this is why I'm saying we are people have joined efforts joined destiny, you are lucky, you have got opportunity to go to school. My parents were very poor, very proud. They could only educate me up to the sixth grade. I am self taught. According to statistics of lighting at the all white got paid $677 a year for the education of your white child for a black child $66. And all white children have free and compulsory education. blacks don't. All Blacks have no school lunches. And we see white children in our Motherland having free school lunches can run around the block chasing each other spilling milk on each other's face. Whereas we don't have milk in our own motherland. We are not concerned about the world. Hereafter. We are concerned about the here and now. And America, I must say, Time is ticking off is really ticking off. Not only from South Africa, from all parts of the world where your mineral resources come that maintain your affluence in the time of poverty. We can have your three courts meet when people are starving to death. These nations are rising up and the time is gone. Even your Europe, European allies are having second thoughts about being allied with America. And I am saying to end of us trying to give a chance for questions and for my friends to say something I came across a nice poster of a very good movie. That is all and it's not a digression. But I think it will speak to you given to me by a friend last night. And I don't know whether some of you have seen this poster is from England. You have seen the movie bond with the wind.

Unknown Speaker  02:31
There is a new version of the bill to end all films. I thought this might be some that you peppers up.

Unknown Speaker  02:44
Regular with fetch. She promised to follow him to the end of the earth He promised to organize. So there's a little bit iFJ just that even in time of tension, and we do have to rely heavily in this country, I still have probably just getting a green card. But nothing is going to separate me from my convictions to stand for justice after way. And I've come all the way from Greensboro, North Carolina, to be with you in this process. And I left my feminine in Johannesburg, South Africa. They have suffered because of my convictions. But they have been in support of what I stand for. I have no next of kin in this country. And yet I still stand and shout again just be be V formation. Because I am very powerful in my powerlessness. And once we begin to realize that we can move mountains, and in this country 53% of the population are women. 53% If you add the children is far more if we can rise up as women that will not stomach any oppression, are you just women anywhere in the world, we can move mountains, the one the only problems with Nicaragua or the Philippines anywhere in the world, and we can take it, you can start where you are. Because in my country, we just started the students, students 99 How many years have been instructed, and also going on, but I'm very thankful that you take and I hope this is going to be a meaningful day for you have to check on yourself to say really what am I living for? What do I do with the gifts that I have of time, talent of mine of resources? How can I play a more active role to make the immediate future more meaningful than the life in which I live? And if I can speak in this language of my oppressor, check yourself how many languages you speak. I speak about six. But we are here in the struggle. I'm so thankful you came I hope this will be a very meaningful day for you and I don't want intellectual questions to test this. I want sincere questions on genuine love and love and concern for each other allude to continuous struggle goes on thank you

Unknown Speaker  05:27
I kind of like to ask people to hold off on some of the questions until the other two speakers speak and then maybe we can have a general discussion and kind of address questions to all three. The next speaker is Tavi. The Indaba was also an activist who is a member of the African National Congress of South Africa has been involved in struggles in South Africa and in this country, and is currently involved in a campaign for divestment here at Columbia, in addition to other things. So she's going to talk a little bit about the struggle since the 50s. And perhaps a little bit about how we can fit into that topic.

Unknown Speaker  06:19
Think speaking to so

Unknown Speaker  06:25
I'd like to thank the organizers of the meeting, for inviting us to speak at a spec shop. And to extend, of course, we have the women's section of the ANC, New York, our gratitude for the invitation. When, you know, it's very hard to follow an act like the combat has just

Unknown Speaker  06:49
been given us I mean, it's, it shows you the power, the same power that you saw in the movie, she speaks to the great power that we young women so much admire in the spirit that we so much if picked up and draw aspirations from. And up to this day, you still go, of course to them as their source of strength, the generation that preceded that has preceded us and is, of course, still active with us today. Since 1956, a lot of things have happened. People say well, was it wasn't it a defeat that the past passes were extended to women in South Africa. And you know, some women who particular have a narrow path will say, of course, it was a defeat. Because the past is way extended. And what we're what the women purchased in the 50s did okay. However, we take a very different view from the dead. If indeed this was a failure, the regime would not have tightened the chains as much as it has tightened around the nation, across across both men and women, and extending all forms of of the most brutal oppression towards women. We witnessed in the city in at that time, after 1956 women who were who had said sentences meted out to them that were just as equal to the men where we had the treason trial that you saw, where 156 people were in the leadership of the struggle in South Africa. We all were arrested and charged with high treason. And amongst these people were people that were mentioned. They're people like Helen Joseph that you saw, you saw on the film, people like Dorothea who has just been released from prison from from prison. They people like Lillian Gunn boy who was the president of the African National Congress, Women's League. Now, these are women that have left an indelible mark in the struggle of South Africa. People like Dorothea Amber, she was, in fact, you can see she's one of the first freedom fighters to be involved involved in controversies or as she was charged with harboring a controversies with members in 1969 and was sent to jail for 15 years. And as she comes out today, he unrelenting strength is we still see and we still see her commitment was the struggle to further to further buttress and strengthen our quest for liberation. Other women that we may even think about people like Albertina Sisulu. Now, I'm 18 a Sunni is the wife of Walter Sisulu, who was at the time of his arrest together with Nelson Mandela was the second Attorney General of the African National Congress. She has not. She's one of those women that has not been broken by a series of ban of pending orders, and house arrest and listed restrictions as much just similar to those that we know of Winnie Mandela that are most publicized. And at least today, we witnessed this gallant lady is a patron of the United Democratic Front, which is a board that is a is a young body, but is a body that takes us back again, to the days of the 50s when we saw such massive protests. It is an organization that will represent about 506 organizations, many of which subscribe to the Freedom Charter of South Africa which says that South Africa belongs to all we live in it, regardless of race, color, or creed. And Albertina Sisulu has now been erased is now being being arrested for four years by the South African regime at the age of 66, I believe. And from here, we draw the strength to continue because at her age, many will have retired from the struggle. Some say they retire from the struggle, of course, but we see we've seen from her the strength of no have no surrender, he has not retired. And young women like Barbara Hogan and white South African women. Also, people that stand out in our minds today when we talk about the struggle, a young woman who at the age of oh, I believe she's in her 20s She has been sentenced to 10 years in jail by the South African regime.

Unknown Speaker  11:54
But the bravery that she showed At her trial is, you know, it defies reason. Because when she was sentenced, she came in ANC colors, and gave the ANC salute, and said Amandla these other signs of a movement of women growing and showing that it is not about to be repressed. Instead of losses, we are experiencing more gains in the struggle for liberation, especially in the face of the oppression that women face, and yet show the strength that they show. Now, the nature of the oppression that is meted out to women in South Africa, is in three on three levels. Women in South Africa are oppressed as workers. As a as a worker, you are paid less than you mean you male counterpart. And the women are the most and under or unemployed. Part of the population in South Africa itself, that we find the most in Japan to stands where conditions for living there are not not very conducive to living, there's overcrowding and other problems of poverty. The second level is the level is the level of blackness, they are classed as blacks, they have no rights, the disenfranchised, they have no right to vote, just as the men don't either. And on the on the state level, you know, women are treated as minors in South Africa. Like you cannot get a house unless you have a man. There are many things that you cannot there are many things that you can do. Without if your husband dies, you lose your housing in especially this is especially in the urban areas. Now, as a woman, you're not even allowed. If your husband lives in the urban areas and next day, you are not allowed to live in the urban areas with your husband, because your husband is a unit of labor that is on on lease. Rather than say you're on contract really, because you are an indentured person, you will be assuming that you have certain rights. You have no rights in the urban areas except to lease yourself your services to the white people to the to the to the white people in the urban areas, and these are specifically the multinational corporations. Now, the issue of multinational corporations comes up a lot in this country. And we're always talking about well is the corporate said we are For they're providing employment for blessings. Through they're providing employment for paid for blacks in South Africa, but for whose benefit the reason that the multinationals are there is obvious, we all know, the basis of economics, especially under the system that we live in here, that when you when when one goes on a business venture, the motivating factor, the prime motivating factor is the factor of profits. And in South Africa, the system of apartheid guarantees the highest profit yields possible, up to the point where it is cheaper to mine coal in South Africa and export it here than to mine coal here. Instead, here in the market in the US market. So we see the system the system, they're guaranteeing to the today, to the multinationals, an atmosphere where exploitation goes unchecked, and human degradation goes unchecked. And yet we hear I mean, we continue to hear the multinationals boast that they are there they are charitable, then we should not be fooled by that, we should be very sure of what is going on there. Because even those women who are working in the in the urban areas, and can live in the urban areas, and so in South Africa, and what people are calling the you know, there is a middle class, there are Blacks who have manifesto for upward mobility, I mean, upward mobility socially, has no consequences on above that you still cannot vote, you still cannot live where you want, you still cannot,

Unknown Speaker  16:57
you are still liable to be deported out of your own country into some barren piece of land because of the laws of apartheid in South Africa. So now these women who live in in the urban areas, Dean in the college educated women still do not have any privileges. And in fact, you know, it's just simply no issue to talk about the issue of the of the classes, the regime is attempting to do that. But it's the black people have said that, you know, they recognize that this is just a token form of tokenism where I mean, we are familiar with it here where they can say, If so and so made it why can to make it. And those conditions simply do not exist in South Africa. And when we talk about Bantu stands, I want to specifically talk about bantustans. Because this is an issue that clearly affects women and affects women, most disproportionately black women most disproportionately in the population of South Africa. Now, Bantu stands with the creation of the nationalist presume, which is a form of Neo Nazism, really, in South Africa. This is a form of vulcanizing. The south of the country in South Africa, you have a series of series of lands that are called home lands. And these series of land do not even connect these series of lands are specifically chosen because of their barrenness. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the reservation system, you know, places like Arizona specifically for Indians, and that's nothing but desert and so forth. The the Baptist and a similar to that, because they work in the same way. Now, these bantustans comprise only about 13% of the land and to be correct about 12.3% of the then 12.7% of the land, and is left alone for for the purpose of blacks who make up more than 70 72% of the population of South Africa, whereas the other 87.3% is left for whites who make up nothing more than 20% of the population of South Africa. Now, you can imagine what kinds of overcrowding goes on. And what the plight of the people who live there is. Now, these are mostly old people, mostly women and children. In the Bantu stands, there is one doctor to every 44,000 people. There is a death rate of 10 people a day from tuberculosis. Malnutrition takes its toll on the children And whereby 50% of the children die before they reach the age of five, from nothing but malnutrition in a country that is classified as a well developed country, and in fact, is the first the fastest developing country. Amongst many, many, many countries in the world where one sector of the population has plenty, and where South Africa can even sell foodstuffs outside of South Africa, where is it there is such gross discrepancies between how the citizens live in South Africa. Now, this bantustan, the formation, the formation and the creation, and even the sustenance of bantustans is perpetuated by a series of laws, and a series of brutal uprooting of the people of South Africa, especially the women. They eat I'm sure many of you have heard about crossroads in Cape Town, where women are being moved from one location to another forcefully, these women are saying we have nowhere to go.

Unknown Speaker  21:18
This is where we belong, and no one has the right to dictate to us where to go. But there is but but the regime uses force and comes to the bulldozers and has shot people and killed people who are peacefully just saying we will not move because this is where we live. We've heard about the Mkapa people in the northern transfer, who had lived in on this piece of land for four years, and this was was learned that they lived in with the chiefs. And they all protested and did not want to leave this area. But the regime again, sent as a practice in South Africa, as is the nature of apartheid, of course, force was used against the people to move them from where they will, they will, they will live in. Now. When you when you really look also talk about women, you can't but talk about the issues of birth control and so forth. In 1981, South African regime passed and passed a bill, they're saying that women, black women should be given forced sterilization, because the black population was going out of control. And yet making and creating an atmosphere where white women should have more children in order to increase the white population, because of the danger of the increase of the black population. When when these things were met with protests, and from amongst the community people, the South African regime sought to use a drug called the pro Provera, which I'm sure you're familiar with here, it was rejected here for use by women. And women have been either forcefully sterilized without their knowledge as as it goes on here in many, many parts of the country. And women were given this the proper virus and women have developed the side effects and illnesses as a result of Depo Provera. And there is a campaign inside South Africa by women to outlaw the use of Depo Provera. And this is I mean, this is a struggle right now, that is really a worldwide struggle, just like before, the issue of the property rights is a key issue amongst women. Dated in some other ways, inside the country, by systematic genocide, by the by the regime itself, which is nothing but the characteristic similar to that of the Nazi regime. That song that so many of the nations in the world got together to fight but today we find it very hard to get together and go to fight a party it was here again, very eagerly saying when sanctions in Poland, saying we have come to teach you how to organize ourselves, whereas we have always been organized in our labor in the labor movement, and women today are even organizing up to the point where domestic servants are organizing themselves between us. But then comes this paternalistic attitude that we should join the African American labor centers, which do now which which want us to compartmentalize our struggle and see well, this is delivering this delivered trago. Now this is the community struggle, I'm not getting involved in the struggle of the political issues and getting involved in the struggle of the, of the labor. Whereas when you're carrying I mean, the past book, which explains all the laws of oppression in South Africa, there is no other way since now, we are being oppressed as a work. Now we are being oppressed as a community because they will clash it is meted out equation, this thing dictates your total life, and therefore it should be, that is why we fight apart when to fight apart the notice the piecemeal, but we want to fight it totally. And we want to be sure that we have the support here of the American people, which is why we continue to give the information and continue to be grateful for for such a occasions that like the one we have today, where we can share information, and think about projects that we can do. Now, usually, when people have workshops, we think about things that we can we can do and how you can contribute to the struggle and so forth. Now, I mean, we have several campaigns as campaigns as women in the AC women's section. And

Unknown Speaker  26:16
the campaign that we've had a campaign such as having medical supplies to send to the to our refugees in Africa, who are thoroughly needed of them, we have clashes, like nursery schools, where we have lots of children that need clothing, and they need medication, of course, they need toys, and we need books for our companies. However, now we have organized so much for the material, it's so easy to get clothing. And so today I can get clothing in tons. But the problem that we have is in terms of meaning things, we have had problems in raising funds to be able to move things. Therefore, at this point, the little storage space that we've ever been provided with, we cannot we are unable to use. I mean, we have overused, it's full. And now we are unable to gain money to to to to to to do the meaning. I will just say that the the office address of the African National Congress is 801. Second Avenue, room for five New York City 10017. And in case you want to phone is 4903487. And on another level, being that this is a school and I'm sure some of you are in the academics. There are issues such as the divestment issue, which we are we are pushing very hard for and hope that you know, we can get some a lot of community support as well as the support of the students within Columbia itself. And hopefully, pressure the Columbia trustees we've been intransigent in trying to find a workable solution towards divestment for Colombia. I'd like to say thank you very much for the opportunity to say a few words and hope that other things can be covered in the questions.

Unknown Speaker  28:41
I turned on this session, we also want to have time for questions after the next speaker is now at the Andrew was an attorney and currently student here at Columbia, who is going to talk a little bit about the legal system in South Africa and give us some factual framework for exactly how that present system works.

Unknown Speaker  29:19
My mind, what I'm gonna say is gonna be very brief, because I think most of the two sisters have covered some of the aspects that I was going to touch on. I don't think that it's it's very useful to give a litany of the laws in South Africa without looking at the consequences, the social and political consequences of them. And they've covered them mostly, particularly looking at the Bantu stands and kinds of the education system, the poverty and so on in the, in the rural the bunch of stands. Now, I think that the reason why South Africa is, I mean the many reasons one of the important things Why South Africa is the scene is the system is so offensive to the rest of the world is that the commonly held notions of democracy and justice and so on that, that people believe in many people the Western world purports to, to push it, they've just been totally ignored in South Africa, but what the South African government has done is managed to set up a very impressive looking legal structure, a system of courts, judges lawyers, we have a legal system built on the on the British model. And if you look at the legal system, without looking at the content of the laws, without looking at the social and political structure, you find a very impressive one, people have even managed to write all kinds of treatises doctorates theses on the South African legal system, not looking at the substantive nature of the laws. Also, since particularly after the Second World War, with the process of decolonization and so on in Africa, the law was seen to a large extent as the as a a the law was used as an instrument for promoting human rights, whereas the South African government came to power at that very time and whereas, the South African government came to power that very time and and instead use the law to perpetuate the apartheid system, which exists right now. At the heart of the apartheid system is the need for a constant and cheap supply of labor. That is what the the influx control system is all about. We have you have white racists and so on all those racist notions are important, but I think the underlying problem in South Africa is the economic exploitation. And the reason why women suffer most at the because of the of the PA system is the fact that they are largely seen as superfluous men healthy young men or can provide cheap labor in the cities for the industries and so on, but the women, old men, children and so on are not are not useful to the workings of the apartheid capitalist structure. So, that is that is the crux of the of the in class control system to ensure that there is always a constant and cheap supply of labor. Now, the, how the the influx control system works is that every African person at the age of 16 is required to carry a reference book. And section 10 of the black urban areas Act covers

Unknown Speaker  33:08
the provision of reference books, there are three sections to section 10 Section 10. A, is, is right, which most well, did you know, the granting of reference books and so on is not a right, it's a privilege, the government sees it as a privilege. So even if you qualify in terms of the three sections in the act, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will be given a reference book, it depends on some official who could arbitrarily decide that even though you satisfy all the requirements and all the criteria, you still won't be given a reference book, section 10 A covers people who have been born and have continuously resided in an urban area. So if you're born into whereto, and you've lived there all your life, you have you have the right, we will have access to you satisfy all the requirements for a section 10 a stem, there have been problems where women who have lived in Soweto have sent their children out to some bantustan because they've worked and they couldn't keep the children and the children lose their section 10 A rights because they haven't resided there continuously, all their lives in Section 10 B covers people who have worked continuously for one employer for 14 years, or has resided continuously in an urban area for 15 years. Now the problem is what used to happen is that the government, the people in the in the Bantu stands have to go through labor offices, labor bureaus, and they have a contract they're given a yearly contract with a company in the city. And at the end of the year, they go back to see their families and in their contract is renewed. So what you actually have, instead of having a 10 year contract, you have 10, one year contracts. And so that's been a Something that the government is used to ensure that not many people get section 10 A, get a section 10 a qualification. I worked at a legal resources center, which is a public interest law firm in South Africa. It's the only one in the country. And it's attempts in some way to alleviate some of the misery of the South African system. And we had a case last year, you might have read it in the papers, a big recruiter decision, we a guy who had done that it worked continuously for 10 years for an employee employer was refused a reference book because he had broken his contract once a year. And the one of the lawyers in my office took it to the Appellate Division in Bloemfontein. And the the court gave judgment in favor of Mr. ricotta and said that he had actually worked there for 10 years and that his wife and children could come and live with him. The whole notion of of actually going to the Appellate Division in Bloemfontein, spending hours of time, legal expertise, money, and so on, to bring a case like that to court is itself arraign. This, I'm sure that people reading something like that cannot fully grasp the the, what it means, you know, just to go to court go to, to an appeal court to get permission for your wife and children to live with you is is just something I'm sure it is, which is offensive to all of you. Well, Mr. Ricotta did get permission and so on the state there was talk that the state would close that loophole change section 10 B so that people won't get permission because they would have the problem then of many women and children coming to the urban areas or many men getting permission to live in the city. But I think that there was pressure, some pressure from outside, but I think the state, the South African government is going through a period of intense International Public Relations, and would just be another, you know, would be something that people would use, again, against the government. And I thought that and I think that in, in sort of the top echelons of government, I decided that they would rather use another means and undermine the the effect of the judgment. So what has happened now is they've said that they will give effect to the judgment, but only if a woman will be allowed to come and join her husband in the city only if she has housing if they can

Unknown Speaker  37:38
acquire housing for married people housing that the status provided. So that is meant basically that the judgment has been killed because the state hasn't built in such a way to I think the last houses built by the government was in in the late 1960s, early 70s. I think so the the housing situations is, is acute. That means that people will not be able to come to the city even though men are able to get section 10 B rights means nothing, they can't bring the wives and children to the cities. Then you have the other laws in South Africa, you have the immorality Act, which makes it illegal for black and white people to have sexual intercourse. mixed marriages Act which prohibits marriages between blacks and whites, the separate Immunities Act, which provides separate beaches, all kinds of public amenities for the various racial groups. One of the things that the government has also done is in its attempt to dilute Black Power, and also it's reminiscent of the British divide and rule policy is to divide the black population into three groups. You have the African population, the colored population, people have mixed ancestry, and I'm a colored person, then you have the Indian population, mostly people from India, who came as as to work on the on the sugar plantations last last century in the beginning of the century. And it does create the government has managed to create in some extent, to some extent some animosity between the various groups although the black consciousness movement is undermined, to a large extent that policy of the government to the the we've spoken largely about the the the urban sort of setting and the problems of how section 10 prevents women from coming to the cities and perpetuates the cycle of poverty in which they are involved in the rural areas to the women because the land the land that has been set aside for Africans are mostly non arable. The land has been over utilized, people actually can't eke a living out of the land, a lot of the women have moved to the neighboring white forms to try and acquire some work. The problem has been over the last few years that with increased mechanization and so on white form, what form is no longer need workers that much laborers, so women have been deprived of a very important source of income. seasonal workers are needed occasionally. But that also means that we women who are able to acquire jobs are only able to acquire them for a short period of time. And then you have the added problem that in the cities, employers, because women and children have been left in the in the bantustans. Pay me in the wages of single men, they say, Well, you know, you're living we providing you with some of them providing a common accommodation, you've been living in hostels, you don't have families to support. Therefore, the rationale is that the wages that they pay the men you know, us men can subsist of that and entirely forgetting that they are families in the in the Bantu stands will have to be fed and so on. Also, there's the problem. And it was, I think the movie showed where women, very often we've had in the office, women coming to this to our office, because they haven't heard from their husbands for a year or two. And so and they don't know where their husbands work, they have no idea where to find their husbands coming to the city alone is a formidable experience. Most of them have never been to the city, and you have a situation where men were sons and husbands have basically been lost. You go to the police station, you go to any official place PBU you're dealing with with with with with officials who see African men, African women as numbers so you know, there is no there's no no attempt made to even try and find these these missing people. Another problem is that men become very lonely in the cities men. Love with other women, they now have two families to feed and it just becomes too much of a burden to with the wages that you do and to try and feed two families.

Unknown Speaker  42:33
I just want to touch on the reforms that you have laid, particularly the Reagan administration has given the South African government a lot of praise for the kind of reforms that I perceive the South African government is embarking on, you have the the so called constitutional dispensation whereby colored and Indian people will be given some semblance of a vote in three Parliament's that are going to be set up. You also have you noises about urban blacks being given greater rights, et cetera, et cetera. But I think that people will praise the South African government for these moves basically escaped the point. All these reforms and so on are basically attempts by the South African government to try and some way modify a path to alter the structure, so that white people still remain in power and that capitalism as it is in the country can continue that the the labor which is which is assured by the by the migrant labor system will persist. So, you will have maybe a group of African people in the cities being given what is perceived greater political rights colored and Indian people being what is perceived greater political and economic rights. That is not so basically what you have is you have the poverty in the Bantu stands being increased, the rest of the world only sees these reforms sees maybe some blacks being removed into jobs that are that were previously held by whites and so on, but the fundamental nature of the South African system remains the same and does not African government came to power in 1948. On a policy of apartheid, they have not changed their policy, they are not going to change the policy. And the basic problem is that that that unless the Nationalist government is removed, and the people themselves or are given the the right to vote, to have a say in the government and run the country, no no modifications no alterations, means anything. The system is rotten and unless The government is overthrown. It will persist. Thanks for listening

Unknown Speaker  45:07
about 1230 and open it up for some questions. So

Unknown Speaker  45:17
how is it possible to get favorable decisions in any South African courts, like the record to case?

Unknown Speaker  45:25
would be now? It's possible you're talking about the process or the

Unknown Speaker  45:29
Yeah, I mean, if the judges are white and the prosecutors away?

Unknown Speaker  45:36
Well, the problem is that they still I think that it's in South Africa, now, the the league, the judges have been, apart from the South African system coming under constant criticism, the judges, the whole court system has been knocked consistently, international criticism has hit them. And so they are judges who are concerned, even though politically they support the South African government, they're concerned about the legal integrity. And so what some lawyers have attempted to do is I don't believe that the law can in any way change the system lawyers can in any way change the system, because the law is the problem, that the what we attempt to do is to try and alleviate, and maybe provide some short term relief. You know, what a lot in this whole process of apartheid and repression. So I think with the ricotta decision, you had a very good legal argument, which judges couldn't possibly deny. And I think it's all this move to sort of give this African state some credibility to see to maybe remove or dispel some of the criticism that has been heated the judiciary that you have a judgment like that.

Unknown Speaker  47:01
So that would suggest that the white minority cares anything about

Unknown Speaker  47:06
the white minority does not, I wouldn't say that it's the overriding sort of motivation. But it's really important, just like the cultural boycott, and the sports boycott is very encouraging for black South Africans, it makes us believe that at least the international community's outrage it was going on in South Africa. For White South Africans, it's a white South Africans leave the country, they are privileged inside the inside, when they come out, they attack from all sides, and they have to pay for those privileges. And it's very important for them to be able to give the rest of the world some kind of idea that they're not that bad. And so therefore, international, international opinion does matter. And it's very important. It's an important tool that outside groups can use. Case for a left hand assembly, on farm workers, farm workers, aren't unionized farm workers basically have no rights. No, no, no legal rights at all. And I know that there was there was some lawyer doing some research, I don't know about this group that you're talking about. Now that maybe

Unknown Speaker  48:20
I'm not addressing the specific case you mentioned. But I just want to draw your attention that the forced, you know, giving out of depo provera is done not only in the farms, but even in the cities. And we have government build shanties called clinics are not full clinics, like clinics, you know, all over the world, where blacks who have because blacks are not allowed to live in the city, they don't work in the city. You know, we I mean, we work in the city, but we cannot live in a city, we don't have even facilities in the city. We live outside the city by white people's law. We have our clinics there that are run by the city. So what they do is they prescribe tablets to women. And without even telling them what these tablets are for. And I was in the national executive of the Planned Parenthood for the whole of South Africa. And I was able to come into access to some of the very good liberal whites, who were also pushing for saying things within the black community. I think one of the things that we need to realize is that according to the white people in South Africa, they are basing their society on historical mistakes of the United States. In all respects, the the Indian Reservation idea is Ubuntu style idea. The idea that came from outside can come and take over for trolling is like all our all of us being here Native Indian is not appearing anywhere. And you know, land has been taken over. We had, there was a much of the Indian cinema at, you know, from Los Angeles to Washington. Again, for sterility, we have not only we had depo provera, we have a lot of other, you know, carcinogenic stuff that is brought to us people. And as a patient, you don't ask the doctor, you know, what is this? What is this for, then you don't get treatment. This is the thing, but I just wanted to stand with the farmers, it's even more difficult to have access to them. Because you have a farmer owned by a white folk in the rural area. And even the housing is owned by the white, the white. And if you step into that land, you are charged with trespassing. So the very difficult to have access to even if you are a relative to the farmer, you don't have right to meet your own family in your own motherland. And these are perpetrated with the knowledge and approval and the sanctification of Western world.

Unknown Speaker  51:08
Will you that question? I think the, in a situation like that, I mean, the form systems in South Africa, basically feudal systems, you have you have the effect of slavery there. And in a situation like that, it would be very difficult. If if anybody wanted to get in there and change whatever, it seemed almost an impossible task, because legally you have no grounds to stand on, if anybody tries to organize it. But if a trade union or something would try and organize the the farmer would find all these workers that lose not only their jobs, but the homes and so on. So it's almost a no win situation.

Unknown Speaker  51:46
To come in on censorship currently in South Africa, like how easy is it for white people to get materials? Like underground types of materials? And others like at Norton? Or is there any been any relaxation in those areas or to have place?

Unknown Speaker  52:10
Well, you know, the system is, is it's also of just of late I mean, the sensitive ships system has always been very rigid, very stringent, and so on, but of late is all part of the moves. And so often government when international Truman, they've somehow ease some of the the tight controls that they did have all the material that's been disseminated inside the country. I don't think Navy Gordon has ever had trauma issues related books banned or something like that.

Unknown Speaker  52:40
Yeah, it's,

Unknown Speaker  52:41
you know, Nate and Gordon, his books are from what I can gather, she might have had some banned, but I've always been under the impression that the books have never been banned, and so on. It's people like Mandela, black political leaders who have written stuff, Nano, you can't get any of that inside the country and so on. And so yeah, it's,

Unknown Speaker  53:01
it's difficult, it's really arbitrary to censorship system.

Unknown Speaker  53:06
You know, you know that books are banned for moral reasons or political reasons. But the person who decides who does the group who does decide to ban a book, the censorship board, it will ban a book and then you can appeal in a lot. This depends on the opinions of that board that particular day.

Unknown Speaker  53:23
Let me respond to Nadine go on record. And I'm saying from my people's point of view, loving God, you know, makes money out of our misery. She writes very well. She is not in a situation of, of suffering. She sees it objectively. And she may write sympathetically with sensitively, but she is not my representative. She is not describing my situation. In the same room I described Alan Pater and I have not yet come across. I don't know I have not yet come across any information, where nothing government Guardamar has publicly supported liberation movements, or done something directly openly for the oppressed people in my motherland. And in the white setup here, if you don't mention God and God, whatever you say, is not authentic, if you don't know Alan Payton, you know, whatever you say, is not authentic, and these people right from it's a racist sex, you know, aptitude, and that is very sexist at the same time. So I am not saying what they have right is wrong, but it's distant, it's not my situation. And so when it comes to censorship, it is tolerated, but after all, it's applied to doing business about black affair. You know, if I write from my own situation, you know, authentically, first I don't even get publishes. I don't even get any funding, and my material will never never reach the market. And it's the same thing even in this country exactly the same That's what I was.

Unknown Speaker  55:00
That's really what I was getting, if there's any kind of movement to do any writing, and if so is there any means of support to get a seven eight published?

Unknown Speaker  55:08
Well, I come from an army tradition. And documentary evidence is a feudalistic western concept that is very Hellenistic in its origin. And what I say is authentic. So the little bit of writing that we do, is coming out of yourself. And in a struggle, you find there are ways in which we communicate, we do do some writing, not for entertainment, but because the time of a revolution is really little information for conduct for organization for strategy for movement, I wish we had the time to sit down and write even the the sales, you know, people who are addressed to our team in the sales are now no more allowed to be given material to study. Don't know whether you would any response to that. But that's

Unknown Speaker  56:00
just in addition to that the point being in South Africa, that is the material that is allowed for broadcast for dissemination in terms of books and magazines and so forth, is usually material that does not fundamentally challenge. What is going on? It is it is the the the superficial material that that we see. I'm sure you've read. I mean, you've read things like how the beloved country does not necessarily specifically talk about fundamental issues in South Africa, the

Unknown Speaker  56:41
covenant or Michener, it's,

Unknown Speaker  56:44
it's really stuck in its own way, but it is not, it is not pointed towards the things that are fundamentally wrong in South Africa. And therefore can you know, is allowable, this permissiveness is okay with it in South Africa is become permissive.

Unknown Speaker  57:04
You don't get material from our point of view that speaks from for us. And I'm saying you, as students, you to be a student, you have to study have sources of information as wide angle and make your own independent opinion. Let's see if anyone here when you bring a speaker, you want to know, what's their biographical data? What have they studied, what is they've done, so it still fit into the same set of centers of who is eligible to be an informant to us.

Unknown Speaker  57:41
For the rest, but first, the complaint about South Africa has always been whites are in control. Whites are the ones who are ruling the whites are the source of oppression. So one way was to color the the party, that you cannot say now we only have an all white government. So they the whites, no sales dictated, planned, you know, within the people that are labeled A, you know, Asians and people that are labeled color, but will have so many so many to solve to form a meaning, you know, Parliament that will still be subservient to the all white parliament. So the idea was also to divide. And because the people that are oppressed in South Africa, who do not have the political, political electoral power, have rallied around one name, which is blackness, which is a political statement. So the Asians, the Indians, the Africans have always worked together, because even though they have a more and more privileged base of color, they are all president have the same vote, they have the same group, you name it, and in this solidity as they have been tried many times to break it down. So one way to bring in divide a room within them was to draw this hoping that we will divide and fight amongst ourselves. So this has not really divided the people it has made, the people to look at this is different. And of course, as individuals, we have different levels of resistance to temptations, you know, and the same way we have individuals who say maybe half a loaf is better than no, no, you know, we might do something over there. It's not that they accept the system. So this is the set up, but the main thing is that there is growing opposition to that very idea right now within the Indian community within the color community. There have been protests, you know, against the second or the second issue about the neighboring countries, their neighboring countries that have been economically dependent on South Africa, you know, have have a very strong commitment to struggle on justice, and many of the blacks We're in the white pool and a few whites who have fled South Africa have gone to the neighboring countries, and South Africa has always bombed this country's destroyed, and they have not been able to maintain themselves. So it's like a bully, beating down a small, you know, boy, and after treating the other boy, then we make an ugly with that now when we're together, we agree, it does not mean that the neighboring countries have given us the struggle room, but they also have to survive and live. So the Compact is its expediency on a political and economic level. But it does not alter their commitment to justice. No. And we see how the power struggle is maneuvering to divide and conquer. And it's one way in which they're also trying to destroy the OAU, the Organization of African Unity, the same methods of dividing and conquering all other nations. So it's not only by South Africa, but also with your CIA here, the British, the French, they are all going in glove with the same setup. So I don't know what your response is. But that's my response.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:11
I was in Cape Town in 76, the bulk of the population live in Cape Town and kind of people then clearly made it quite clear to the government where the allegiance lie, even though the government is for a long time, tried to persuade colored people that the interest might be with the white governments and in 76 colored students rioted. And just the situation was the same basically as integrator except you didn't have that many people killed. With this new constitution, the Labour Party, from the time they decided to go in with the government that have not been able to speak out, left the country just after the Labour Party decided to go and travel around the country trying to try and sell the deal to people. They were basically not allowed to talk anyway, meetings were disrupted. There was violence. Even in a city like Durban where there's a very small colored population of people. You might you know, there's not been a sort of history of resistance as in Cape Town and Johannesburg. The Labour Party couldn't talk. They were it's been quite clear that people are opposed to the system. But as this is to say that they will they ask them, some people some color Indian people who won't be can be bought over in his interests might just, you know, might see monetary or might believe particularly older people might believe that maybe this is a way of getting a slice of the cake and changing the cake ultimately better. But if they took it to a restaurant in which the government is refused to do it, you could do a referendum it wouldn't pass. So people have been quite adamant about how they feel about the new constitution.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:51
In fact, community it's easy to be fooled by this