Unknown Speaker 00:04 Whatever saying is that I'm going to give a very informal discussion on how to get into more discussion afterwards of any formal presentation and get into the discussion afterwards. What I thought I would do is we could just go around the room and introduce ourselves into NCO a little bit about our own background. And so that I know, you know what, why people are interested in the topic, which gives me a better sense of what are the many aspects that I could talk about. As I was saying, I was born in South Africa, I've been in this country for 20 years, involved in solidarity movement here, became a writer and interested in journalism. And the nine to ad began go to us and the Metro times my most recent visitors in June 87. And which has my shoulders as a team in general, I spent two to three months in the countryside, I got to know reasonably well, what my original intention was to look at relevant and interesting things to try and look at what was happening on the ground to the ideologies and policies of the government. In terms of how they were putting into practice, very strong statements about the need for innovation. And by 1984 1985 1986, and suddenly now the situation is so different, that in fact, it's hard to use some kind of yardsticks, one is using an issue, because of the welfare state the stabilization, but I won't go into that. When I told you before, for stretching, but what my interest is very much coming from the perspective that I would like as many people in this country to know about what's going on. We all know there's very, very little in the press about the Sunshine State. And what South Africa is doing that region is very, very beautiful, fits very neatly into the whole apart a vision of the region. And is very critical, and the next five or six years. Very, very important. The growing resistance in South Africa is has very strong implications for what happens in frontline states. And I think it gives you more of an optimistic about the end of the party, when that's going to happen is another question. And that frontline states are only rarely going to get their own series independence once a quarter is ended. But I will in I'm just trying to touch on a few things that are a little more concretely basically what I wanted to say, by way of saying that my approach is very much one of wanting to get out more information to inform people about what's happening. Because America, willy nilly is pretty involved in this situation. And the coverage here is very limited. The New York Times has had articles in Mozambique from time to time within a few reasonably what they will talk about is that there's a civil war going on in Mozambique, and that ever since independence, because it was a socialist government that was put in place, that they've been people fighting against socialism, as if there's been that kind of contradiction to conflict from the beginning. And totally ignoring the South African element of it. There was a long article and right at the end was about last paragraph when Bernie had actually waded through that whole article, there was some reference to the fact that South Africa bash was so we're getting a very, very distorted view. Because of my interests and women and my concerns were an issue. This was my approach was to look at what was happening to women was working within the region, particularly in Mozambique. I'll stop there and I will pick up on some of those themes and maybe people wouldn't mind just introducing themselves Unknown Speaker 04:22 character center they've done some solidarity there and made it to this particular workshop as a journalist giving us something to shoot through the roads that to your parents and all that first graduate student visitation this afternoon session mode actually deals with Unknown Speaker 05:23 Are you hoping to do Unknown Speaker 05:27 I don't think that's gonna be fun. Yeah. I don't necessarily. I'd like to go I was using. Unknown Speaker 05:48 And now less. I mean, it's very amazing to me, I really thought you'd have no problem getting raises issues and people who are really hot in solidarity Stephens name seemed to be in on him because of some of the stuff. Unknown Speaker 06:03 So that it's up and it's worth a try, you know? Do you seriously want to do that, and I don't have medicine in Unknown Speaker 06:12 the general sense of a boycott of the country. But I think particularly if it's listen to try to international sometimes with a tribal view, if you've got a credential of an academic institution, sometimes it's easy to say Topic. Unknown Speaker 08:02 And then it's good actually, that I got some senses when people tell me, they just heard a little No. But so I'm sure that some of the things I'll say you will know about. But you know, let me just start and give a general introduction. I mean, there are two things that I was thinking of doing is when I was invited to speak at the seminar to my workshop, some of them actually mentioned to me what the topic of the actual overall conference was I when I look at it, the workshops don't seem to be fitting into motherhood versus sisterhood, all that good. But I do have some interesting observations just on the question of single mothers and Mozambique, which I think really illuminates the problems and some of the pitfalls in terms of trying to establish their view variation. So if this time interested, I'm not just going to take what we can see out there just to give some basic history which case probably for the benefit of India. The Mozambique was a Portuguese colony, and was one of the few countries in Sub Saharan Africa that actually fought long struggle. For the most part in the 50s and 60s. Britain and France, which are the major colonizers of Africa, sat down at conference tables and negotiated independence. And this independence is one in very different ways and manifested related to the US and countries from East Africa to West Africa, which is Southern Africa. To a large extent, Britain and France wanted to ensure that they still have an economic hold on the countries that they were leaving. They didn't mind so much as giving a political Hold as long as they can maintain economic power, which is the core of many. So that we find a lot of countries that have won independence. But in fact, in terms of any impact on the day to day life of a majority of people in that country is that the wealth lies in the hands of the few that British companies or French companies come into those countries, and that any real sense of change in appearance has been very, very difficult. In the countries that fought struggles, there was the potential for having something very different. And I think that wasn't so much. The I'm struggling itself, it was the fact that I'm struggling managed to assess people in a way that was not possible, and that the circumstances really didn't work last week. In Mozambique, this was very clear in Guinea Bissau, which is another area that I looked at, in fact, I visited Guinea Bissau during the war and wrote a book on the impact of women on the the changes that are going on during our struggle, not cancer, Guinea Bissau as another Portuguese, it's in West Africa, very, very small country. But in terms of countries like Guinea Bissau and Mozambique and Angola and Zimbabwe, the fact that they fought arm struggles really did have an impact. And I think perhaps Mozambique can be seen the most payment for Lima, which is the liberation movement in front of us formed of a number of groups designed independence from Portugal. Lima was very highly, the leadership was a very highly motivated. And they said about trying to change the country in a very fundamental way. So very clearly, we don't want to get independence and then simply have black faces replaced by faces of the Portuguese. We want to come to the in which every person in every small village area of the country feels that changes. During the war, one could see very positive progress towards this. It doesn't really matter liberated about a third of Mozambique Turkey. And it was actually the successes in Mozambique and Guinea Bissau and ultimately broke down into this fascist government which then led to the independence of these countries. So they got their independence very late. But it turned in Mozambique got its independence in June 1975 majority of Africa was independent. Unknown Speaker 12:54 But they had had 10 years and 10 years of mobilization and 10 years of people understanding that they needed to unify in order to throw off this aggressor. The secular government would have come to us and taken over their country. So that it was a time in which people could really feel that whatever they contributed to the war had results or could potentially have as I said, venue enables was very easy. People were being shot at we were being volunteers who have long histories of devastation and and living under colonial experience. Portuguese colonialism is known to be one of the most people. And I won't address it today. Another hour. Basically, the way in which Portugal extracted its wealth and a very, very adverse effect on peasant agriculture, and extremely impoverished, particularly through enforced cotton and rice. The peasant farmers were told basically, they would visit their land and say, Hey, your land is this size, cut it in half or cut two thirds and from now on, you go cut in the area or you have no say, and they have to then continue to produce their own food for subsistence of the smaller part, while their labor has to be changed into a producing company, which is very labor intensive. Unknown Speaker 14:29 So that this rarely devastated Unknown Speaker 14:31 the peasantry in Mozambique, and it's a pattern that was repeated and repeated in different resin and oil and all of this coffee. And Guinea Bissau was peanuts. This was very consciously done a Portugal that they didn't miss areas Unknown Speaker 14:57 so that when Fannie Mae began to organize, it was not hard Until get people mobilized and in fact, small victories would happen. And then another victory another victory. People got a sense of that there was movement, and then ultimately there was independence Much, much sooner than I ever imagined when he is working on, and I'm sure you've taken by surprise. I was right, yeah. Okay. Long ago. The sense in the area was that Portuguese colonialism was going to be the alarm that happened much quicker than and in fact, had fallout in South Africa a little bit about recent history in South Africa, the 1976 uprisings. So WETA, for instance, came out of a climate of revived resistance, which started because the independence of Mozambique and Angola said, what we found this and do it. So that that gave an impetus to the resistance. So this was some of what was happening, it was very different, once independence, and to then try and translate what had happened or to use the example and the model of what had happened in integrated zones for the whole country. And again, quicker than they thought they would fully myself that they would have a much larger section of content degraded before. So as excited as they were about how quick it had happened. With hindsight, it was also very, very troubling, to try and build up a country that basically had no foreign exchange, because what would happen is when the cotton and the rice or the tea tea and cotton, cashews, major export crops, and they were sold on the European market, the money went to, never came back. And there was very little reinvestment of capital in Mozambique. So that there was this extraction, continual extraction, siphoning off of Mozambique as well into Portugal, into the hands of very few elite families. It wasn't for the benefit of Portuguese. So that they took over a country without foreign exchange, it took over a country without people that had skills. Now, the thing the Portuguese had done, which was again, fairly different from the British in the French was that they have not developed an indigenous civil servants. So that there were very few people that were educated who were running the civil service or running the administration, amongst most leakers, there were Portuguese people of Portuguese descent. And in the panic, after Mozambique's independence with the view that this revolution, government was taking over, and we'd all be wiped off, Portuguese led in large, large numbers and something like 250,000 quarter million, which we said was after independence within the dream transitional government, which is so that Mozambique was left without people without skills with the populations in another 90%. So it wasn't that Mozambique could immediately draw on their own population to fall to us there was a very, very problematic in terms of just basically organizing what was happening. Those were two of the real critical factors in terms of what Muslim peoples trying to do. They also had to confront the fact that somebody was still fighting a war that they had tremendous support in Tanzania. Now I'm struggling so immediately said to Zimbabweans, we will support you, because we're clearly in the interest as well, besides the solidarity aspect is very much an interesting piece. And because of the war that then was launched against those big by the rotation, so that no sooner had they finished their struggles, and they began to support the struggle in Zimbabwe. And the result of that and is anticipated sanctions, which was very critical, because there's UN sanctions against Rhodesia, the British, the just potted history, there is that tradition, religion government under and Smith declared its independence with us, but and it was not recognized by the UN clearly. And so it was an Indian government sanctions against it. But particularly they needed oil and other some other goods that couldn't be produced in South Africa, Rhodesia. South Africa, obviously didn't support sanctions, and I think it's my oil, the oil came through. There's a pipeline that goes from the post up to the center of Zimbabwe. So when from them I turned around and said we're going to support the sanctions. They basically cut to the dangerous men in South Africa to try and be routed through there, but it's very rare. Unknown Speaker 19:53 They then from the m&r movement of National Resistance which was spawned by Portuguese and Mozambicans who had been, who had fled Mozambique and felt there was no place for them. Some have actually been in reeducation camps because they have been corrupt and had been arrested once and for embezzlement or various other crimes against the government had escaped have gone through Dasia it was set up by the Rhodesia central intelligence organization. So the movement had now destabilizes most of the exporting by South Africa was actually started in Indonesia at this time, which you actually don't realize, because in history that goes back to full South Africa. And the job of m&r was to act as a some sense eyes and ears for the Central Intelligence organization in Mozambique to try and find out what was happening in terms of the support for Zimbabwe assistance. And to try and destabilize Mozambique as much as possible to go in short incursions, bomber bridge or destroy village, small actions, which is very, very devastating. Unknown Speaker 21:13 And of course, a lot of money had to go on defense, which should have gone on and then 1980, probably won its independence. And that was when I started to visit nursing. And it was a ton of real hope was this, there's also some collective sigh of relief and and now we can forget about war, we fought on war for 10 years, for another war. For five years, we now can really set about developing making sure that we begin to translate what we feel, you know what our ideology is into a new nation, with a new inspiring nation model nation. They didn't take into account South Africa sufficiently. What happened to South Africa just took over the end and literally flew them in from Zimbabwe. And then they could no longer be there. Took them into South Africa, they've been pretty depleted by that point. He might have been very successful in any province. And they numbered somewhere between 500,000. And now numbers, something like 2000, although it's hard to achieve. And what South Africa did was did then pumping millions of dollars into developing an organization, which has been paralleled a lot to the country movement in the sense, the US formed the consciousness of women that would not exist if it hadn't been for USA in the same way. m&r would just simply autonomic was tonight simply would not exist if it wasn't for southern and South Africa through them and is really created havoc. And if I look back now, on a seven year period of Mozambique, it's almost as if the first three to three and a half years was a period of no war of any scale of the beginnings of incursions by m&r, even when I was in 83, when there were stories from trustees, who were being very scared and attacked. Nothing, no. No, maybe what I'll do is just describe a little of what I saw when I came back and then go on to the whole question of why destabilisation women in particular. Midnight, to some extent says like a garrison country. I think the mapping pockets of places that are secure my period, which is the capital and major towns and then certain areas around the country. And the rest is not actually controlled by anyone. It's just that m&r have activities in those areas. I mean, some of the areas are controlled snow areas. But for the most part, they so terrorize the population of the population center. And I spent a week in the northern province, trying to get some sense of what this meant. And that is, in some ways, particularly depressing because tech is an area in the north. that borders on Malawi and Zimbabwe. And had been baptisms in province have been liberated during the war. So people in their province with very political, very fertile problems so that potentially, tech could feed many more people than the population and it exported goods to crops to the poor to enter their second largest city that also fed the South, the north the tech fair because the tech was so targeted was perpetually from one year to the next people really didn't know what to do. So that that as long as the North will produce, there was no problem. And the and the harvest is very, very good a variety of different crops traded across the border from alive to somebody who wasn't very happy, but also exported, the crops with much less surplus was commercialized. What's happening now is that the harvest 1987, for instance, was there was not one. I mean, virtually nobody in the province of teff actually went and harvested their crops. And the fear of the dead did in a very cleansing way, there was no way that any of this there was any surplus in a way, therefore with the surplus cryptic nationals, two thirds of the province has other people in the province of industry. There's a drought in the south, the South has more secure areas, people have fled to the south. So the refugee camps tend to be inside, you drag through that area, and it's just thrown down. And just rarely rarely. In the north, I didn't visit the north, but people don't have to sit here and look around and everything's very green and fertile looking across. And what's happened is that the armed bandits, which is the temperament m&r disused inside Mozambique Unknown Speaker 26:16 have, have attacked so many villages that people have had to flee. And that's what they initially try and do is live in the bush during the night because the attacks tended to come at night. And so they would flee the villages live in the bush at night, and then go back and work with us during the day. And then after work while the tech started during the day. And the stories are just horrendous. Nothing has been heard here. And he has been chopped off in his press chapter. But there's just endless stories of how children are being forced to kill parents or parents be forced to kill children and men have been abused and their families been shot. People are kidnapped to carry goods and then when they can't walk any further are shocking. There's a real sense of people being terrorized and in the refugee camp and collected a lot of stories from their lives. Either they had been kidnapped and seen the trustee firsthand, on the case or some others had escaped the village and within the village being attacked, but then we lived in Goshen that babies have died and a lot of children. It's estimated that three out of five children, two out of five turns five to Unknown Speaker 27:38 six, it's very, very high percentage. Sorry, to third 33 And third, survive 1/3 Getting the biggest one out of three children and most of the time. Unknown Speaker 28:00 Which amendments just extraordinary. To stick solar, or the rest or other other places in Africa, it's just not the instrumentality, right in Mozambique and Angola is the highest. So that the devastation on that level, just experiment. People are trying to keep the children there's no food and they just watch the help that they can get into the refugee camps. And so the problem is they were very, very dire. There's another figure that 4.5 million people who have been directly affected by the war, either had to flee oil internally at refugee camps or fled across the borders to even the lawyers and Barbary or Tanzania, some to South Africa, Swaziland. That's a good portion of this people are placing the population as mixed over third population the population is affected by the war and displacement. And this is very, very clearly famine induced. It's not manmade clamor. It's one of the words that I don't mind I mean, it just so clearly sort of word everything a man made you think of who you are. That it's the estrogens are there in Mozambique at the moment, it's a draft that could be survived, because they are areas that are very fertile. And with some aid, it's if they would have survived there's no question of the dropping devastating there wasn't very devastating drought in Mozambique, an 80 to 83 estimated 100,000 people. But this is not a famine that's a result of drought. I'm very directly about the type of people who just never can't produce the crops. So that is basically the situation in Mozambique on a very sobering side, on the more positive side as one comes away from that country with tremendous respect to the Spirit, and the sense of people are struggling to survive. And I think that's another problem with the kinds of coverage, less garbage one gets here, it's just that it's a sense that people are devastated. And this is an Ethiopian situation, people are just starving, and very few reports, leave, give the stories or sort of a sense that there are some errors and doesn't make much already timing. And that with the aid that most leaders have been able to get, they're continuing to try and put into practice their basic vision of the society. And then this is very striking and very inspiring, against tremendous odds. But they are still continuing to do that, to see the green zones around today, for instance, where agricultural green zones were the numerous agricultural cooperatives, most of which have been run by women, something like 15, I got different estimates in terms of how many people are working anything between 30 and 30,000 20,000. Women, I thought in this production. People are involved in the cooperatives in this area and something like 90% of those people. And talking to these women, you'll get a real sense of the animal pens, the fact that they're making a life for themselves, and that this is very, very important way in which they are achieving an independence and a sense of the word, stupid enough to produce music. But then you think, again, of Ted, and the fact that women who are magic produces cannot feed their families cannot do the work that they expect. So there's two sides to the story again, you know, the one with real devastation, and the other is a sense of the struggle to survive. And, you know, some people sort of keep saying, you know, we're not sitting here waiting to die, you know, really trying to fight to make change and to continue. Unknown Speaker 32:30 key reason why I think that women are the most affected by the destabilization policies, is the fact that women are primarily the family produces a family agriculture, they're the ones before. This is very true of Sub Saharan Africa, where it's been estimated that 80% of agricultural work is done in Mozambique in 1980 census, and I should mention that pretty much dead salmon. Recently 75% of production was family farming, which meant that two thirds of the population was involved in growing food on their own plots, man 93% of the family farms. So it's just overwhelming the women's work. And on different kinds of levels for taking into account you tears, you read statements from the government of Mozambique, and from the party and from the women's organization, which really acknowledged woman's role in production as being very fundamental. But then also analyzing the situation and saying, despite their involvement, they do not get the kind of political control they should have, over production, they don't have the kind of status that you've come from, it's very important to have the peasant women in Mozambique as the most exploited one, and that their statements are very clear. Then when you look at how the development programs have been put into phase, one finds that women are not taking into account in the way that we'd hoped given those strong statements. Again, I think, you know, when you get a kind of comparative study, which I haven't seen, done of Sub Saharan Africa, I think when we find in terms of development and how that affects women, I think in a lot of ways, Mozambique would be one of the better situations. But still, when it comes to cash cropping, it was the men who tended, you know, again, after much of Africa tended to do the cash crops, particularly sort of a lot of forced labor. When technology was introduced, it was introduced for cash crops, and the women who would then continue to do their own work on their fields, but wouldn't have the same access to the technology that that people working in their state farms own cultural properties were getting so that it tended to entrench their role in production as being a less important one that wasn't looked to and enter in a way that said look, women are back And we'll make these statements. Let's see how to translate. So that that is, you know, I think one of the real problems. In terms of another statement, one would hear, you know, while they make these statements about the presence being most exploited deeplens peasant women being the most exploited people in society, there would then be statements about the need for integrated women into production and production is the most important facet of our struggle at the moment. And that women must enter production, and then you look at most, so wait a minute, here, 93% of women who are in action are in production and then need to be integrated, they already there. How do you deal with that reality. So there were obviously a lot of contradictions. And yet, if you go to communal villages, you will see women very involved in the political life of the village and setting up agricultural cooperatives in the village, you will see things like the green zones, which have been pretty much set up by women because initiative that was taken by women to set up these carpenters and are working extremely well, they very, I mean, there's some that are making a decent profit next them that are still struggling to get on. There's no ranch. But there's a real sense of this is something of the future that we're looking to work in, in order to get an income. So you do see that I don't want to get totally negative sense. But there has not been enough thought given to how women can get involved in production. And I think there's a very critical aspect to this, which points or eliminates the whole crisis and development program. Which is namely that there were three sectors that were focused on as vital at the beginning 1975, when they began to say policy, they said, Okay, we need to look at state farms, we need to set up say farms, we need to focus on agricultural cooperatives, and we need to focus on family production. Those are the three agricultural sectors, and that all three are very important. And we're going to give resources to all three Unknown Speaker 37:04 by 1983, when it was a very serious reassessment of the of the agricultural program, that the program was acknowledged that in fact, it was a State Farm. So we've got 90% of all the resources, that family farming and got almost nothing, that agricultural cooperatives that got something like 2% of the resources, and that the state farms had failed, and that there was virtually not one State Farm in the country that was showing profit. And there were many, many reasons for this. From lack of produced bad lack of droughts due to lack of technology, or the wrong technology, which often happened to be sent to practice in East Germany. And that just didn't work. There was a whole range of problems I went to enter now, but basically, it meant that by 1983, from BMO, and the government was saying, we screwed up, that this was the wrong tack. And they then decided that what they should do now is to refocus on family farming. But basically, if every family in the country had feed its own people, and they'd have the whole of the country fit. What happened in 83, was the time in which the m&r insulated sector, so that they were never able to actually put into practice this change of policy, which was very, very critical. But what it also you know, I've been thinking about this, what I thought a lot is that FEMA was very, very good, and the liver enzymes needed after independence, to go to the people to say we have a new policy, we have a new program, we want to discuss, let's go and think about it. And there are two instances after independence was very important, which they literally seem to account for every village in every locality in our country, with regards to talk about the feces that they produced in the themes. And one was in relation to the fourth party congress, which was the one that decided and able to design state farms. And its go or at least not be the central purpose of their production program. And a lot of the reason for that was because they went to people and heard what people were saying, you know, this is wrong, and we rarely done benefit. You know, we as basic persons don't benefit from the state. And there were a number of aspects were discussed. And they wrote back the results of these meetings. They would then process the resume in Maputo in the capital and then presented at the in a report at an unrelated party congress which formed the basis for the rethinking of how they then decided on developing prototypes. It was very, very credible. The other way other example of this was the 1984 special own extraordinary calm into women's equality issues to look into social problems concerning. And again, I traveled with regard to 1983. And I could just see them at work, they'd go to a village for a day, sit down, and people would come and talk about polygamy by pride press, Buddhists, COVID. single motherhood, divorce adultery, young married premature marriage. The call is relatively marriage. I mean, all the kinds of problems are particularly affected rural areas, but they're in an urban areas that we're talking about slightly different aspects that affects women. And again, this the attitudes and feelings about programs like polygamy then brought to the conference in 1984, which made them rethink how they were going to try and work against practices such as polygamy, which initially they would say polygamy is detrimental to women's custom and really oppresses women out. Yeah, let's end at nine. I mean, I would hear in 1980, I go to a village and I'd say, is there any polygamy? No, no, we all understand that. But there's no polygamy now, because it's, it's wrong. And maybe if anybody lives in this village, that openings many men are polygamous before independence. Okay, village of 10,000 people sometimes cause it possible that they've managed to combat polygamy. And then, you know, you'd ask questions to one woman outside, give me some examples of polygamous marriage just existed. And what I began to realize was, the line of the party was that polygamy is not acceptable, it's anachronistic to our present to the vision of a future society, because they weren't saying so much as an imperialistic dinar, because they're in a transitional period. But people would take that very literally, and not want to admit to an outsider like me coming in, who began to ask, you know, something rather naive, never polygamy, because I've heard all these wonderful statements, and analysis of why women talk, polygamy was bad, who is sitting in on the meetings, and the villages for a day was very, very different, you got a very nuanced sense of why people were or were not against. And very often women stand up and say, you know, we rarely spoken in his first words, are familiar with, in the sense that polygamy is not accustomed, that's just grown up, because my one of my wives, you know, it's very, very much tied to the economy, the village economy, and you know, life is very, very hard to produce enough food of the land is time consuming. 100% of your time is geared towards that in one way or another, either production and on the land of reproduction in the Family Center, looking after children and taking care of the household. And women's work is literally never done. And women never rest in terms of, you know, overstating a little bit, obviously, there is some, again, some nuances, and that's it. But in general women in Mozambique would say that if there's a chance for a woman to say, well, you know, I would like my husband to actually marry another wife, because it would help. We don't all don't have to work the way younger wives were saying we very much against it, and they were men, you know, would say, I have to have more than one. Because if I died, what happens when when one of my wife is sick, who will cook for me, and then there's a real sense almost panic. And if I wasn't entitled to have more than one wife, I don't know how we organize my life. And it was also very clear that polygamy was alive. And there were I think, most of the younger generation of women coming up 70 and 8090. And women that I talked to, maybe in early 20s, were saying very clearly, we are not prepared to go into these marriages. And that's ultimately how the change will happen. If women themselves are saying, we're not going to accept this, we're not going to marry a man who says he's interested in another wife, or we have the the, we have the option to divorce if our wife or husband knows another one. So that these were issues that were brought up and discussed at this conference. And again, this went to the 1984 conference and the pooter was the still the reports were distilled. And what happened then was that the policy was changed in terms of we can't just say, We've got to get rid of these. These customers are ever objectively we feel that are detrimental. They've been customs that have been practiced for many, many years. They're very much tied into the culture into the economy. So these were two examples of the way in which lemur did go people today have the mechanism to do so. In terms of winning, yeah, it was very much softer. You know, the And then what we need is a lot more education, and that the women's organizations thinking about ways that we would educate people and give them alternatives and give them support. Rather than saying, You can't do this because the Lima says it's wrong is to say, these are the reasons. And if people want to be polygamous, that's their choice, but that we will then really work with people who don't want the answer to managers and business and a softer approach. But again, you see, that was 1984. And when you which is escalation was taking place in terms of the destabilization. So the very little has actually come out of that conference afterwards. I mean, there was a lot of hope at the time that despite everything they'd be able to do, and make some changes. But the fact that we're doing things important, there is a little bit importance of that conference was it gave a lot of credibility and strength is a women's organization in a way that I think was lacking in terms of the way that came like regarded as analog of women's today to require a strong standard. Discuss these problems. Unknown Speaker 46:14 So the point Unknown Speaker 46:15 that I'm getting to through this credible digression is that women are the partners, Mozambique acknowledged that women are the farmers that women peasants are the most exploited these were all statements traced back to even before independence. Why didn't they then go to the women and independents and say, or to peasants in general? And say, what would you see as a priority? What would you see as a priority in terms of agricultural development, and really talk to people about what their problems were, I mean, given that, up until the Portuguese left, people were being forced to grow cotton, and they had very little capacity to produce enough food. I mean, now, I mean, they first go would be to produce food, there was a problem too, because dilemma, new government still needed that they needed to export the cotton because that was a major source of foreign exchange, but they couldn't force people to drive. So how do you then you know, people are posting want to read the content if they didn't have to. So there were all these kinds of problems that were really at the base of the agricultural policy and of putting the agricultural policy into practice. So they didn't take into account that they sort of very typical almost a universal statement was that we will set up a State Farm to take over the farms that have been abandoned by the Portuguese and set them up state farms will hire labor to we will give the opportunity for people in the in the rural areas to earn an income to EMS monthly settlement salary. And by setting up the State Farm, stir up the country, we will then have a way of quickly getting food, you don't have this llama surplus and be able to feed everybody. So ignoring the family farms, which in fact, was a much more practical way of feeding everybody because it's fine, you have a State Farm that's producing a surplus, and you don't have the trucks to get that surface, where the roads are washed away in in the rainy season. And this stuff rods are there. One farm, I went to the last one total harvest of corn because that intersects, combine harvesters ran out of sacks, there was no nothing to to transport recording. So then these mounds of corn sitting in the middle of the field, there's no need to do. And those were the sort of problems that were happening. And so my sense was, you know, again, they missed a very unique opportunity. And it's something that the Women's Day had actually talked about, it's one of the real obstacle to the whole Kushner advanced during that decade was the failure to consult. And I think this can be seen great. And so that I, you know, that I think, was one of the problems. So just want to round up a little bit, because I'm going to get to get into some questions and answers. And see what just to get back to this the question of the effects of destabilization on women. And why, you know, and I tend to make the statement that women bear the brunt of the destabilization promises, and it does relate directly to. And women's role was very, very clear. It was not a role that gave him much political recognition. But it did give them a certain status. It gave us a sense of independence, it gave them a sense of being able to provide for their families, which was very, very important. And it gave them a role in life and men tended, not, in general working on the production goal other than to play fields and I would imagine that you know, that percentage and they say 93% of the work is done by women and family farming 7% is not the day to day weeding and harvesting I'm intending the crops as much as the clearing land at particular times. Particularly during the planning, the vandal, maybe helping with the harvest, intensive period. But in general in the day to day grind that works, it's done by women. And men are off doing other things. I mean, at this point in the south, many, many miners in Mozambique, miners went to work in South Africa, over gun work in other areas, or were just taken endless forced labor into Portuguese plantations. So their work was very much aside from having fun. Women, you know, over the years and pre colonially, there was much more if one can get I mean, it's hard to recreate the paradigm. But there's this general sense, I think that when we were involved in day to day production, men were involved in hunting. And in the seasonal tasks, chopping down wood to build houses, is probably expensive. And clearing fields, repurchasing houses, it's easy when those costs are needed. But that's in terms of the day to day very, very important. Unknown Speaker 51:13 When people are forced to flee, and women are no longer to provide, are able to provide for their children, it just hits it an incredible chord in a way that it doesn't for men. I mean, it's not just the sense of not being able to see visuals, clearly. I mean, something, I mean, men, I'm sure do not any less agonize over the dying children. That sense, but in terms of what women are putting into that, to be fair with knowing that they are responsible for providing food for their family and with their children. And there's a whole emotional and psychological element to that, that I think is just very, very devastating. And this was, you know, one of the very distressing things in people in the refugee camps. And I never went into the areas where, you know, people have been very devastated. And then you see on TV living some, some coverage must be camps. And we speak with just cleaner government has been able to open up an area and people have been really starving, people have fled into particular areas, because of m&r activity and surrounding areas. And there's just not enough food, and it cannot transport enough to eat into the air. And people are dying. And it's very, very difficult. I didn't see that. But I did see that the impact on people and I did interviews with a number of women in the refugee camps and stories in more tragic than the next. The people that talk to me tend to be who they really wanted me to hear their story. And it was something that a sense that I was a journalist as from outside that they wanted the story to be told. And while I would be talking to people, I would see women sitting beside me for the hours that I was there, and I really got the sense that women never moved in, they could sit with babies on their laps, and they would just sit down and fix on some, you know, target. And just the whole sense of total evaluation, total devastation. And these are people that are being fed because they were in the refugee camps. And in the camps that I was in that moment attrition rate was actually quite low, was 2% or something. And that tended to be for people nearly coming into the refugee camp, so they weren't getting enough food into this. Part of the reason why I could go to this area was it was easy to get you by Rodin, which is also one food. And it's I mean, it's hard as a journalist to go in. I mean, I'm not I wasn't going in and sort of thorough study to look at the effects of the established stabilization on women as basically you're going to get some sort of impressionistic, but I think you have a situation. So that a lot has my arms and projections under the situation. But just having got some understanding, I think of what women's work in Mozambique meant to suddenly have that wiped out it's such a basket, I think is going to have very tremendous. The women would be sitting in the refugee camps and the men would actually be going out looking for Word or looking for flash in order to try and build the houses. They would be engaged in work during the day to try and help set up their house. The work that women would normally be doing would be going off to the fields and they went and they would be sitting waiting time. And I think it's very devastating. They're also just the whole question of the way in which women have been treated by the seminar. The rapes that you just heard really terrible stories of what happened to young girls and women so that there's always that aspect and any kind of Orioles. have that but it seems to be particularly vicious. So it doesn't, you know, not very extensive thoughts, but just sort of some of the thoughts that I had while looking at women and seeing what it takes. Just to get back to the South African end of it. Resistance is continuing South Africa, despite South Africa's attempts to really crush it. We've been a number of actions lately. We just tried to stem resistance in South Africa. They can qualify for a certain time. I mean, there's obviously history is totally inside the majority majority. So Boston, South Africa, that I don't think there's any question that upon it is going to be there. But the more that the resistance increases in South Africa, the more we're going to see destabilization tactics such as what has been done in Mozambique. In Zimbabwe, it started in Angola as we've continued into invasions and younger not just three supportive of in either. Unknown Speaker 56:05 Countries that are supporting Mozambique or supporting Angola are also targets as far South Africa is concerned. And they have a very tight policy, in terms of the destabilization. It's not a kind of hit and miss. It's a very, very integrated in terms of how they see the need to destabilize that area in order to try and maintain. So it's one of those things. But it's just very distressing to see that it wasn't on the American front. I think people would just be aware and the next year that the riots has got a real, very, very real strong campaign to try and get recognition. In terms of Angola, I think they feel like one of the basically those Reagan's the State Department's policy and regulatory policy towards Angola. 40 you need a constant harangues against the Cubans mainly as the Cubans are an invading force tacit support to South Africa and what they're doing in Angola. And let's make this essence. And it's interesting because though when he started his election campaign started with the statement that the eminent we should recognize m&r And we should encourage talks between the m&r and between emphysema. And after the after the Halloween massacre and I think it was October last year, which was the first of the big massacre isn't there been a number sense in which 4500 people were killed. When the Taliban strength about 600 m&r moved into the stomach just wiped off. That it was very hard for Dell to ignore this. I mean, there'd been a lot of stories of the President saying that this is not just a normal level of wartime atrocity, this is something very special. And he's been and he's found it very difficult to support the m&r. It's a fact of the State Department has not supported me. I mean, does not overtly call for talks. So Reagan has not taken a strong stand on that I'm quite sure he would love to support m&r, and whenever he talks about anticommunism, post communist forces in the fight against communism, anti communist forces, he will always include the seminars as one of them. But in fact, in terms of what the states has done for political support, they have not given that seminar and the right wing is rarely pushing very, very hard. What Reagan has not done, however, is openly denounced the m&r very very strongly in the way that all European governments and the European governments are sending an enormous amount of British government sending military aid to has made its training in Zimbabwe, its training Mozambique offices there's a there's a real sense that that we can't support Mozambique anymore unless we support the military. In an even fetch, you can do that. Reagan is the only western country wrestling head of state that has not acknowledged that is interested in that just because of the whole tensions within the Commonwealth. Good them and I'm not quite sure what that mentioned. But that is one very clear one, you know, while she supports I'll ever again, it's against divestment and sanctions and all the rest of it. You know, a lot of the governors will look for very convenient ways to show support which will try and get them sort of political support most of the people and so Mozambique has been one of the issues of patches taken up and it's very impressive purchase honors of Mozambique is really trying to provide a not an a, you know, credibly huge scale and certainly has not cut back on support South Africa. A day is trying to see to separate the main one does support does try and train officers to fight the m&r or to support itself. But I think people that are working on those big issues in this country are very concerned about the direction and what will happen when push comes into power. And what you know what the strength of the right wing will be? Unknown Speaker 1:00:15 Longer 910 Yeah Unknown Speaker 1:00:26 yeah, that was that suggested that decision was pressure to support kind of curious, the gross troops because it smells like the population is politically opposed Unknown Speaker 1:00:55 to Malawi is very tiring and South Africa is the one state I don't even think it's actually included as a frontline state. But it's not considered frontline state because of its friendship with South African South Africans, given an enormous amount of support so that it's extended to keep itself aside from its neighbors. And that's one of the points the other point is Banda himself as in his own, who actually something that's been going on for many years. It's not cute, but he has. He's had a design on northern Mozambique on Tete province. He had this whole this historical, long history of mix of people and ethnic groups and Malawi actually live in a cross the borders and they are the same ethnic group live in both Mozambique. And in Malawi, which is something that happens all over Africa, because the lines were drawn to arbitrarily said that there's his own vision of wanting to take over northern Mozambique as an expansion in Malawi, which is a very small country. And South Africa's interest in maintaining Malawi and maintaining whatever friends they can have in the region. And similarly doing its bidding tends to be a part of that m&r has got a lot of support. In the end this Tete Province, which is so devastated, just devastated because of its border, Malloy doesn't even know. And they were training camps. And I mean, I heard stories of refugee camps in Malawi with m&r were active and they come into tech refugee camps. Banded then, about a year ago, a little bit before I went to Mozambique actually signed an agreement of Mozambique where they would no longer support me. And then I think that did make a difference to an extent, but I don't think m&r would ever do it. It's just that then I'm saying I went militarily support m&r, I would give them space for training camps. But as far as I know, they're still supportive. I talk to people coming in and out of some tacit support. But actually, we're not supporting them in the same way. In fact, in the south, when you hear reports now such as a homeowner in Mexico with the m&r, moving into very organized battalion strength, well equipped radio, radio and back to South Africa, getting a sense of South Africa's flyover recognize that area, and let's say through rate, you know, communicate through radio, it's allowing them to be very much more mobile. In fact, it's pretty much just they've got obviously, I haven't mentioned that in much better position. This is not going on in the notes. I mean, it's still tended to be the sort of 15 or 20 bands of people that go in and devastate an area, which probably means that it possibly indicates Malloy has actually pulled back in terms of continuing training and support and training and relying on South Africa to provide the same kind of support for m&r through Malawi that they are providing himself. He has a long, long coastline, it's impossible. It's impossible to make it secure. So that it's very easy for South Africa to supply. So that's sort of nice position. The third question of recruits. The one I think you're right, I mean, my sense was absolutely the support for m&r in terms of wide scales very, very limited, may be in certain pockets. Keeping in mind does not have a ethnic basis where the user doesn't, even though that ethnic base has been made official by South Africa support etc. Actually, was that something that had to be taken into account and now doesn't have anything about 13 different different ethnic groups in Mozambique, and it's not one that that kind of divide It's the m&r they see this as red territory. So where did they come from the 20,000. If you think for population, 14 point 5 million is actually I don't think all that. I mean, it's able to be as devastating as it is because of the health government's dollars in South Africa. But still, they are there. So they're in there probably five or six different sources of recruits. One is the initial support that they got from Portuguese and they're still offices in Portugal. And Black Muslim bacon's who had collaborated with the Portuguese government, the Portuguese police. And so they left in a very soon after independence, because they knew that the last month Unknown Speaker 1:05:48 so that was a court m&r. Then people who went work in South Africa and legally were caught him and said, you know, we will either jail you or you join m&r, given the choice. So, I mean, that's another complication. A lot of young kids and it's impossible to know the numbers, but young boys have been kidnapped and taken in integrated villages. And there's a lot coming out on that now, because some of the kids lactating and for you know, escaping, and there's been a special program set up to try and re integrate this gets when when they've been killing, I mean, kids 1112 13, as you know, for years now, I've been killing and this has been their life. And apparently, they've been given a lot of marijuana. To give them strength before battles. I mean, there's been many use of these kids has just been its own form of terrorism. And it's impossible to know how many and the kids are terrified because once they forced to kill somebody, then you know, the term is, you know, I mean, baptized to stay with us. Because if you play, your family's going to kill you, often lemurs gonna kill you because you're done. Killing 13, that's going to be impressed by. So that's been when I've talked to people in the North. And as I said, when the Vance came to your village, what were they composed of invariably, they were like 14 and 15 year olds with, you know, maybe one or two older people 3025 of the chief, they would come up a lot of young. So that's been another source, then is disillusion. I mean, it's a vicious circle to some extent, partly, it's agricultural promises, which broke down and had very dire effects in certain areas, particularly. And then when I would come along and say, you don't have food, we can feed you. And then they bring in food and clothes from South Africa. It's if you want to feed your families, I mean, that's the best way to try and recruit people. So people would join, and they'd be disillusioned. There's been then that sort of vicious circle started because vicious cycle because m&r would devastate an area Dyneema would be unable to protect that area, people would get disillusioned with FEMA and join m&r. And, you know, also sometimes they would join m&r, because they were promised food etc. And when they went through that, it wasn't it wasn't certain people have tried to escape from that main story. Some people have escaped. But it's much harder to that that's another I mean, there is disillusionment that it would be impossible to know, you know, what percentages are? What. So, there may be small it may not be. It's hard to, it's hard to know, certainly, the general sense of the population against m&r. And if somebody is working with me, here's an analogy of saying, you know, if you went to California, and you went to, again, our area where people were out of work, and there was a lot of drug addiction, that people needed money for drugs and said, We will pay you a lot of money, if you join a force that's going to go and attack Atlanta, you could probably round up quite a lot of people. I mean, it's it's sort of gross analogy, but I mean, in the sense that people who really have nothing and are offered something, you know, don't have the sort of morality in terms of loyalty to a particular cause at that moment, because it's much easier to recruit those conditions. So those are some of the ways I think. Unknown Speaker 1:09:33 Couple of us what is employment? Leadership or resolving other questions is the ideology of the struggle. Certainly the ologies are saying they're trying to bring Unknown Speaker 1:09:58 the women in the eye I'm struggling. Women are very active with not many women in the top leadership, although there was some and there's still very few women Unknown Speaker 1:10:15 the there were women who activist political level is, is a lot. And we used a lot for that, but found women very effective. And they were women who were trained. In the army, there was a detachment of the army. And there were women commanders in the women's detachment and tended over not to go into direct combat was more defensive, or porterage. Or some kind of political mobilization in the military. But even people who visited the liberated censoring the warriors were always struggling. And they would see as many women as men in general, maybe that's pretty, very noticeable number one, wouldn't just be one. So they were very much integrated into the defense. If women wanted to fight in combat, they were encouraged to do so. But there was no encouragement of women to fight in combat, although they got the same trainings, man. They went through the same military training, which they needed if they were going to be dependent. One of the very strong leaders and doing the one who's actually the thinking person, the main person behind the women's formation of the women's detaching was just Sina. Michelle was Samar Michels. During that time she died during the war. I'm approaching one of the reasons I'm connected to the wall. She doesn't think she might have had leukemia. She died when she came factorization. But she's often quoted as a very, very strong force. And a very strong influence on the show on himself in terms of the direction it's more of a show was the president of the Panama and then after Mozambique, and he was killed in a very suspicious plane crash and October on South African. So I mean, I think what did wonders attachment did was to be a very important model to librettist and said, you know, women are doing this we're we can do it this way. It's very important. But not so much as really pushing for equality in that situation. But I think it did have a very important in the m&r as far as anybody can make art has been following and stuff has no ideology. I mean, this is one of the reasons, you know, I should have mentioned in talking about recruits is that it's not as if they're providing an alternative. It's not as the same which again, you need to does have in some way I mean, if you look at unit has program is very contradictory. In terms of one minute, it's capitalist, one minute socialist, one minute spread Chinese. I mean, really, over the years, it's been very material and very, you know, move change according to this live land at that particular moment. For m&r This, none of South Africans are not even tried to do that. They will fight as much against the persons as they will against shopkeepers, if they're trying to look for Allah, Allah as you'd think it would be amongst the shop owners or the plantation owners of private Thomas Thompson do Hi there and militia to protect their farms. So they've never tried to make any alliances. The thing about NEMA, which was so important was their real direction in terms of how they tried to connect with the peasants and they want to support the presence and go on with this was their interest. And it wasn't just something that was very much hard and deep into Lima ideology. Peasants are the majority of people in Mozambique, this is who we fighting for, and not something out there. So to win over the past century was very important. Now my m&r has done absolutely the reverse in terms of just devastating the relationship between any potential relationship between the peasantry and so that that is one of the real weaknesses in terms of I think, in terms of Africa actually one blindness because if they wanting to what I think what South Africa would like at this point, would is not because they have not overthrown Mozambique, they could move in with tax and they've done that and Angola enough and Johannesburg is 80 kilometers, maybe a little more from the border, certainly 80 kilometers. This is this, you know, Mozambique is very, very close. At the heart of South Africa Unknown Speaker 1:15:04 but they don't roll the tanks over the border What the I think they would like is to so devastate so destabilize Mozambique to make the economy so unworkable that the Moslem vegans funny my government is then forced to lean more towards South Africa to compromise more to integrate m&r elements and the government has formed some kind of agreement between m&r. But if you have a movement that actually doesn't have a leadership that's focused on an alternative, which then bring to any negotiating table, you know, this is what we want, and this is what you want. If it's worked out, I wouldn't do it. There's very little way in which that's possible, I mean, the condom negotiations window. And even though it was set up by United States, there are people that to sit down and negotiate in a way that would be much, much more difficult and doesn't make us consistently said they will not discuss. I'm not sure ultimately, I think they can, they may have to work like they've already had a non aggression treaty between South Africa, which often gets broken away. But it's not clear, you know, in the next five years, what's going to happen? But m&r is certainly lacking and the ology is one of destruction there's very there's an interesting book, which is very hard reading, but was looking at in terms of some of the atrocities by Mossad journalist, one of them a guy were dominating. And she did need to bring a copy of it, she's available and I noticed your bookstore 95th Street. And imagine that it looks like it's d u m, I mean, it's right around the corner. Run we are running he's arrived with basically the, one of the areas outside Mozambique, districts, she's in charge of their agriculture program. And her family comes from that district, although her husband and kids live in the village. And she just collected the stories of people that she she knew some family members and other people that you've worked with some things that you sort of saw that after afterwards, and put it together into this. So you really get a sense of the trustees and just how vicious they are and devoid of any kind of political content. The I started our team when they came in, I was talking about the conference that was held in 1984, which was focusing on customers in Mozambique fields are detrimental to women. Such as bride price. And polygamy is one where the customers that have been invited their reasoning that they'll give this a general perspective that they give is that we are not against African customs per se. Absolutely not. We have had hundreds of years and decades of Portuguese pushing down our throats the view that African culture is uncivilized is worthless is nothing to look to for any model, and that any Mozambican who got education always learns about the Portuguese poets and Portuguese history and never meant about anything, that this intrinsic worthwhile in terms of their culture and history. So that they are very clear about the fact that they are not about to try and change the general customer's viewpoint of the most, and they start with something they want to pay very close attention. They want them not to understand the south and center Mozambique to understand the south and that there's a real attempt, and this was very clear for people to learn each other's cultures. What they say, however, is that there are certain customs that we feel are detrimental and polygamy is one thing and it's, they feel it's detrimental for a number of reasons. But for one nephew listener, unequal because women can marry more than one man but Because within that relationship women tend to be exploiting within Mozambican context that doesn't experience that women are often married because man, once more word is meant to be worked extremely hard, that women often night without a choice to a bed don't have a say in who they're going to marry. And that's a lot of stories from older women talked about their marriages, one woman was about 69, to 13, to the man who had been married to her sister because her sister died. And so it was just a simple referral transfer. She didn't speak badly about it at all, because the demand is very, very good husband. But it's this kind of experience, it can be very bad, especially because you know. So there's a general sense that Mozambique feels that in terms of the society we want to build, what we are talking about is trying to build a new kind of family, a family in which is equal respect and equality, and that they felt that customs like polygamy or bride price, deny that possibly, and the back end, and that's about Unknown Speaker 1:21:31 it trying to set up resettlement areas, as hopefully temporary until some stage that we can actually go back home as long as the wars on what's possible. So the idea is to set up resettlement areas, and basically Dimino villages, which they've been putting up all over the country, and this will be another in that. Only 77 Sunday, so I'm in Amsterdam, a lot of community just established by 1981. I think 1.8 million people live in communities. So that there is now that people have been served us with a lot of things, which is to reestablish communal villages and different areas of people that have either got to know each other in the refugee camps that come from the same district. So there's a sort of sense of cohesion and continuity. That's the goal. And practice, it's actually very hard. I mean, I was intended with two places that have been set aside for that those programs. The one had been attacked so often that they had given it up in before I arrived, the other I visited, which was in the middle of it seemed to me in the most desert like conditions, but they were very helpful. There was some water nearby, they were having to irrigate the whole area that was planning to resettle 70,000 people. And they're trying to get aid from European countries in the UN Scandinavia.