Unknown Speaker 00:01 Women come up the organization because they don't feel free to make mistake. They don't feel free Unknown Speaker 00:09 to talk to you about callus research on the glass ceiling. I'm also going to share a little bit of information about the glass ceiling commission, not a lot. But since we don't have someone here from the Commission, ciliate asked me if I would do that, and I will do that probably at the end. As Sophia mentioned, panelists mission is to work with business and professional organizations to affect change for women. So our focus over three decades and more has been on women, in particular women in management and professional level positions in companies and professional firms. So that's what mainly I'm going to be talking about our research, what we've learned over this period of time, about the glass ceiling for women in those kinds of employment situations. Our study, our information comes from two types of research you should know before I began, and one is our national studies, and we've done a large number of them over the years, looking across companies and Professional Firms at specific issues like flexibility in the workplace childcare, we've done research on women in engineering. Most recently, we've done some research on women in sales, we did this large report for the glass ceiling Commission where we pulled together a lot of other information as well as our own original research, looking at what's happening to women in corporate America and other employment settings. And we also do another kind of research that is company specific. And that is research where a company calls us in to look at, at its environment, its working environment and corporate culture in terms of how it impacts women's utilization, productivity, and job satisfaction. So over the last few years, we've done a significant number of those kinds of what you will call proprietary research and companies. But we've had the opportunity to go in and talk to high level and mid level women and men to talk to managers and human resources professionals, decision makers, and ask some very specific questions about how women are experiencing the workplace. In the corporate culture in that particular organization, what are the barriers to their development and advancement, what's holding them back from realizing their potential as women as well as what is impeding the company in its own environment, from realizing the productivity and profitability that comes from fully utilizing women's talent. So those two types of research, the large, large national kind of generic or basic research and these proprietary research projects do tend to have a synergy and to enhance each other. And it gives me a lot of material to use in presentations like this. One, I'm going to unfortunately, we have a little bit of a problem with technology. And if you don't mind, I'm going to be a disembodied voice for a while I'm going to stand behind you and use some slides for my presentation. I've pulled together some slides from a couple of different research projects that I think helped to illustrate what we mean by the glass ceiling. And and talk about it at the end, some of what we have identified as solutions or ways of breaking down the glass ceiling in organizations that we looked at. So you look forward over on that wall, you probably she has really tried to flexible here. I think that's going to work for everyone. We'll get through this. A one or two things we hear about the glass ceiling, one of them is, oh, well, there's not a problem anymore. And I think we hear this a lot and see this in the media. Well, we've dealt with that issue. And women are doing fine women are in all the kinds of organizations that we could look at across the spectrum. And women are advanced. And then there's another argument that says it is true that women have made inroads into significant leadership positions in organizations. But isn't it really just a matter of time? Isn't it? Just the issue that women haven't been there long enough to have CAGR dues they haven't earned and haven't haven't gained enough tenure to move up in the organization. And as time goes on, you'll see more and more women in senior management positions. Unknown Speaker 04:58 Not to worry Unknown Speaker 05:00 In fact that Sheila mentioned earlier today in her presentation 25 years ago, women represented 50% of all managers. Today, women represent only just about three, sometimes you say 5% of senior managers, in corporations, professional firms, and other settings where we see women in professional and management positions. And only this last year statistics now only about 6.2% of Corporate Directors are women. And as you probably all know, you can count the number of women, CEOs and Fortune companies on hand and you still have some fingers leftover. So we certainly are not moving up through the pipeline at a rate that one would have expected. If you look at the statistics Unknown Speaker 05:51 45 years ago. Unknown Speaker 05:55 If you look at this, from the perspective of a female manager, this is just one of the quotes that I pulled out of one of our studies woman who is interviewing, you know, 11 years ago, I was told to be patient, that it would take time for the company to become enlightened and catch up with man. Someone told me the same thing last week. So a lot of women in your among us women who have worked in organizations, there's a great deal of discouragement and a sense of deja vu all over again. When exactly is this going to happen for us? Today, I thought it would be good to talk about what the glass ceiling is and also what it isn't. And to talk about what we've learned about that, from our studies, and from the companies that we work, in partnership with to identify important ways to address the glass ceiling. First of all, what glass ceiling is, in terms of what the Department of Labor has learned, the glass ceiling Commission has learned and what we read about all the time. The glass ceiling is this in most of our organizations, and all of our organizations, for women and minorities and many other people who are, quote, different, who are the non traditional workers who come into the labor force in the last few decades, who are not white, and male. We've learned that the glass ceiling is not a horizontal line running through corporate America. In fact, it's a jagged line. And we have different glass ceilings, at different levels in different organizations. And within one organization, you can see different glass ceilings in different functional areas. So women many moving through, often up the ladder in one part of a company more rapidly than in another part. We also know that the glass ceiling is much lower for minorities in America than it is for women. And we know that the glass ceiling is at a different level and manifests itself differently in say manufacturing organizations and utility companies than than it does for instance and services organizations, professional firms. So in some some more complex phenomena that one might assume from reading a lot of the headlines about class. What we Attalus Templar is that the glass ceiling isn't invisible, and isn't this invisible thing that women bump up against and about 20 years into their career. And most importantly, it isn't inevitable. And it's very important for both women and corporations to know this, and it can be dismantled. If you're in the construction industry, we use the term dismantle your physiology we say could be dissected. If you're a linguist or in the literary world, we could say that it could be deconstructed. And certainly it can be demystified. And so one of the things I'd like to do today is let's try and do that by going through some of the things you've learned about the glass ceiling from our own research. One of the studies we did a few years back, we serve a CEO and human resource professionals in the Fortune 500 service 500 companies. We wanted to know what their CEOs sense that there were any barriers, any identifiable barriers to women's advancement in their own organizations, and wanted to know a lot of other things about what was going on and happening to their companies, to the shows the responses to CEOs to a question about whether there are identifiable barriers to women's advancement their companies. And you can see that a large number of CEOs acknowledge the existence of barriers they They are more likely to acknowledge his existence of some than others, but a significant percentage acknowledge all of these errors. And I'd like to talk about some of them now, and we will deconstruct them, we're just mystified. As you can see a huge percentage mentioned stereotyping and preconceptions, and barriers that prevent women from developing and advancing within your organization. Unknown Speaker 10:31 So let's look at what some of these stereotypes of preconceptions are these, this material candidate interviews, human resources professionals. First of all, there is the perception or assumption that women are not as committed to their careers as men. And this is really serious. And it's very interesting, given how long I've been have been in the workplace and how many women are in significant leadership positions, that this perception or stereotype persists. It's critical that women understand that it's there. Because they themselves are the ones who end up doing management of their own image. Some of these perceptions are in relationship to their career. But it's also really critical that managers in organizations understand that we carry these functions around, and how they impact the way they treat women, the assignments that they give women, the opportunities that may deny women because they believe it's a risk to invest in them. Because women are just going to get married anyway, they're just going to have kids, and they're going to go back home to take care of their children. Or even if they save the workplace, their commitment to their careers will diminish after they have families. And this stereotype impacts all women, whether they are married or single, whether they ever have children or not. And it's something to recognize and to begin to work with. In our organizations. Another stereotype or preconception that we learned about was the belief that women are not tough enough. And we all know that it's it's a really tough place out there in corporate America. I actually wanted to do this whole presentation with cartoons. To get about seven or eight years of anyway, bring a little levity to the subject. It's really important to understand that this stereotypes operating in corporations and other organizations because it impacts the way that women are treated, and that in turn, reduce the opportunity for them to have a level playing field. For instance, if you believe that women are not tough enough, you're much less likely to want to give them constructive feedback about performance, you're afraid they'll cry, you'll stare straight, don't get emotional. You're afraid they can't take it. And so women constantly talk to us about the fact that they want feedback, they need feedback, and they're not getting it. And managers talk to us about their fear of giving them feedback. Also the impression that leads to deny women certain opportunities in organizations where they might have to deal with difficult groups of workers and union, blue collar workers or where they might have to work out in the field situation. Or all sorts of places you can imagine where toughness is required. We believe women can handle it, they won't get those important to know. Another stereotype you hear about all the time is it ruined a lot of work long run usual hours. And indeed it is true that some women, perhaps many women have some strength in terms of the double shift. They're working the managing home family along with with being at work, but they're, for each of those women, there are many women who are willing to make many sacrifices to advance in their careers, we have the opportunity to work long hours or unusual hours are waiting for the opportunity to demonstrate their commitment, but are not being given those kinds of assignments because of the stereotypes that their managers hold about them. Another stereotype we hear about all the time and it's a real catch 22 for women, they can never get it right. They're not aggressive enough Unknown Speaker 14:36 are there and in one of our focus groups, I remember a male supervisor saying and we hear this all the time and a lot of attributes and are looked down as favorable and our team is unfavorable and a woman So it's very difficult women for women, when they go into an organization, first job or whatever job that they're trying to learn the norms and the culture to adjust to the way that people are expected to behave, they have to learn something in addition to that, they have to learn how men behave, and then how women have to behave in relationship to them. So it's much more complicated. But it also holds women back in many ways in their organizations from realizing their potential because they're always trying to gauge exactly how they're supposed to be in a situation in terms of aggressiveness or asserting this issue. Another stereotype preconception we hear about is that women lack quantitative skills and aptitude, we'll all be sitting in this room know that that is a very outdated stereotype. But it does persist and even persist in fields like engineering, where women come in with the same credentials as men. In fact, they often come in with better connections, because the screening for women in positions is much tougher, in the category of higher paid better all the way through school. But yet this does, system, again, impacts women's opportunities in organizations. Another stereotype, very significant important issues back that many people believe women won't relocate. And this also relates to now an increasingly important opportunity in organizations to get international experience. We believe that women won't go overseas and that they don't want to work in international silence. Going back to so those are some of the stereotypes and preconceptions we learned about their their their lives, we all corporate America, we think it's important to keep pointing them out to management, to make them aware of the fact that there is how important it is to, to work with managers to understand the assumptions that carrying around in their heads about women, and to begin to unload those and begin to look at women, three of those stereotypes as the evaluate the first time. They give them opportunities. They also think it's important for women to know about them, because women are most impacted by this honestly. And we should know what we're working with. And the important job of expression management than all top level women talk was about how to go through in order to succeed in workstations. Another really critical barriers, women's advancement, perhaps one of the most critical now that we see in organizations is what is raised here is management, the first 10 years of women in line responsibility. This is what we accountants have come to call glass walls in organizations. It has to do with the fact that increasingly, there's a new developmental model in companies where broad and varied experience is favored over a sort of very narrow, vertical ascent from one area of the company. And therefore it's important that people get both lawyers and staff experienced and organizations that they get both field and headquarters experience. They get international experience, that they they have a lot of lateral moves as well as moving up vertically. The fact is that all of our research and other research shows that women tend to be clustered in staff positions in corporations and organizations, and very solidly into the very top of senior management, who staff positions. So it's critical that women get blind experience. But reality is what's operating out there is this fear on the part of managers that it is incredibly risky to quote women in these mind positions, namely positions of power, responsibility for profit and loss. They are the core position for business areas in the company. And so what is needed is very intentional programs of organizations to rotate women and other non traditional Unknown Speaker 19:25 people in the system into areas that they would not normally have access to potentially do proc lateral rotations and other kinds of programs that facilitate people getting a broader range of experience. Here's an interesting statistic related to this. From one of our survey 96% of senior managers that we interviewed said they were not at first putting women in line jobs, however 58% said that others have there. So there's some disjuncture there and again I think the best defense is that it's an offense for women in this regard, women have to seek out these opportunities, they will come normally, or as easily to women, there tends to be a sort of subtle channeling that goes on in organizations. There's a quote from human resources professional about this. There's a subtle tendency sometimes to put women in more staff kinds of projects, that are perceptions that they couldn't handle themselves in the plans, manufacturing environments, and so on. Whereas women say, If only I was asked, I would give so much to be on a project like that this was a quote from a woman, woman engineer, actually, we also have, I think, to acknowledge that there has been a kind of line phobia among women. And there's a good reason for because of a lot of these positions that have not been very many. And there's no critical mass of women and organizations in lying areas. And so it doesn't seem like a very female friendly place to take your career, Unknown Speaker 21:01 which is my first step. Unknown Speaker 21:04 I'm okay, I'm starting. My positions are typically those that involve responsibility for profit and loss could be in manufacturing and production position, manager, sales, some finance positions or line positions, some are not marketing, so marketing positions, but positions like human resources and communications, Community Affairs and Public Relations, our staff. And that's where we see so many women in our organizations. And so women are drawn to areas where they see more women working, where they believe, perhaps if there's more sensitivity to women's issues, where there might be more flexibility for them working in those areas. But it's really disruptive, because in reality, what we know about why staff positions is because they tend to be office positions, they tend to be located in headquarters, there's a great deal of emphasis on what you call space time, and how much time you spend in the office highly visible to other people interacting with other people versus measurable, tangible results, things that productivity, for instance, is hard to measure and staff positions that are exceedingly political in many organizations, they probably are not the best. Because it's much harder to demonstrate your contributions, if there are no measurable results associated with your position. Nonetheless, women sometimes feel that they will be safer or more likely to succeed in this position. And then I'm going to talk about one other thing that CEOs said, because of time limitations, I'm not going to go through that whole necessary this but one of the other barriers you may remember was that limit are excluded from informal channels of communication and organizations that have what we call the dog noise network. And we understand that in most organizations, this is not a malicious, organized group that has set out to keep women down. But rather it is an unconscious artifact of a an all male culture that was created for men. And it's convenient, and works for men. And like fish in the water, they don't really question its impact on other kinds of workers, people who are different than they are in the organization. This really is critical for women to understand, because a lot of the women that we meet, say I believe that if I just kept my nose down the network has its own language to an acceptable style of making points and communicating and so on. And because it has been created attempts to include a lot of male language activities. And they'll understand that newcomers to the organization don't always feel comfortable with that language system or, or those activities. But anyway, a lot of women I think, tend to ignore the political issue and believe that if they just work harder, stay in the office longer and do more that they will succeed. Well, they're called male co workers that are standing at the watercooler having for lunch in the men's room, having conversations where a lot of important business information is communicated a lot of times Relationships are cemented. And it's very difficult for women to break into these informal communication networks. And to operate in a culture that has been defined by somebody else is another one of these examples of how the culture operates to was so confused. And that's why people talk about how important it is to get a mentor in organizations, because your mentors will want to tells you, Ted, on this team, we take off our jackets, but we don't listen or tie your mentor to the person who says in this organization, how are you the guy you gotta watch out for or whatever else you need to know to succeed? Very difficult time finding mentors in organizations, and therefore that have trouble getting a lot of informal information that is critical to succeeding organizations. Unknown Speaker 25:51 Therefore Unknown Speaker 25:55 they're out of the loop or don't even know they're out Unknown Speaker 25:59 until it's too late. Unknown Speaker 26:03 One final, very nice talk about real quickly, a lot of other people talked about it this morning. And it's fundamental. And I want to acknowledge it is the word family issue for women. And it's really two part it's a two part issue that has to do with assumptions and it has to do with reality. The reality is you've heard this morning was that a large number of women are in the workforce, with children, very young age, and are balancing work and family are not getting a lot out of the home, they're certainly not going to the doctor in terms of childcare, and then most of the employers in the United States have done very little to assist not just women, but families with balancing their work and family responsibilities. So that's the reality. And women that work very hard, as you heard, really carry two jobs every day, to move forward in their careers and also be responsible employment attendants. But it also is true that there are many women who don't have children who never will have children who may not even ever marry, who also are under this cloud of suspicion, the fact that they will have they will naturally reduce their career commitment at some point. So let's not risk with them now. Because down the road, they're gonna be a poor investment to the organization. So in terms of work family, there's an issue of recognizing the assumptions people carry about. And also dealing with realities, responsibilities that we have here for dependents, not Unknown Speaker 27:47 just told me for other members of Unknown Speaker 27:49 the family. The good news is that companies are highly motivated now to try and understand how they can eliminate some of these barriers. And as Sheila mentioned earlier, today, the motivation is, is very, very self serving, has to do with with high costs and turnover, and has to do with the high cost of ignoring 50% of the talent that's out there, and colleges and graduate schools and waiting to come into organizations and make real contributions. And the already recognized contributions of women in companies, women we hear over and over again, women are high performers, women are contributors, how many you can afford to not fully utilize women and they can't afford to lose them, and may not always know what to do. And they may not always know how damaging their culture environment is that when we raised this question the CEOs, a large percentage of them either strongly rate or agreed that it was the company's responsibility to change helping humanity. And our own research has identified a wide range of approaches to how this can be done. In companies and professional organizations. Our goal at catalyst is not just to uncover the barriers or obstacles to women's advancement, but to identify meaningful approaches to developing women's leadership in organizations and advancing women to profile those, showcase those approaches and to disseminate information about them so that other organizations will be motivated to some of those things. And there are some categories of approaches that are important. We learned about Work and Family Programs, baseline, critical, necessary but not sufficient. Can't stop there are the reasons that you know, I've talked about flexibility very much related work family issues. But increasingly, flexibility is an issue for all different kinds of people in the workplace, not just people with children are color dependent care responsibilities, many other types of people. Flexibility is probably the biggest challenge for organizations now, and we'll be into the next decade. And we don't want to research on types of flexible approaches companies can take to keep people in the workplace and keep them productive. Tidy with Robert mobility, it's just incredibly important that companies be deliberate about this, it isn't something that will just happened, by the way. And they need to be looking at where they eliminar to do some real research to identify where the glass ceilings are in your organization's and to begin to address those barriers and culture is various in the work environment. And to begin to help women have more carefully planned careers and developmental assignments, move them into line areas in the organization, to do all those things that are a part of that presentation. In addition to provide role models for them in the form of directors on their boards, fostering role models within the organization from planning to contributions and so on. So there are a number of corporate strategy and strategies for dealing with the changing workforce, we feel our greatest responsibility is to identify those who spread the word. And we've found that some of the most effective way of dismantling or deconstructing or whatever you want to say that glass ceiling, our mentoring programs are deliberately making sure that women have access to people who can enable their career, advice and information they need to compete in their organizations, women's networks and advisory groups really important. Historically, you've seen these groups, often grassroots groups, developed in companies, women supporting each other women helping each other with professional development. When someone asked that question earlier today about their two women ever helped women don't women sabotage other women who have real examples of hundreds of these families across the country, and how meaningful they are to women's existence and develop an advancement in your organization. Strategies for work life balance, flexibility, succession planning, it's really important for organizations to be looking down through the pipeline and identifying women who are high potential who wouldn't show up maybe the top tier of management employees, target women and minorities and other levels, and get identified minds of developmental assignees. Organization accountability to mention that earlier this morning, holding people accountable for people development, Unknown Speaker 33:07 measuring what we value. And if we really value diversity, measuring how we're doing, developing and promoting women and minorities and organizations. And finally, evaluation, really looking at whether what we are doing replacement is really having any impact on the full glass ceiling, to the changing those numbers at the top, where we still see three to 5% new managers to some of the companies that we learned last year, I don't have this shoe slide, but this is part of our effort to look across industries to identify exemplary programs. Con Edison has wonderful programs to try and get women into line areas of the organization out there and the power plants to get them out of headquarters, also to break blue collar women's workers up to the organization by training them in the operations areas. A lot of you in this room mentioned that you're involved in law, horses and horses law firm on the West Coast. There are several very interesting programs that have been very successful in advancing petitions. Motorola. They have wonderful succession planning scheme that has really produced results in terms of breaking the glass. And then we give a special award last year to a collaboration with about 11 major companies that came together to enhance the quality of dependent care across the communities in which they operate. Dedicated $25 million to do that collectively and pretty many other companies. I'm just going to close with this car too. Do you need to mirror what that says is not asking you to change his thoughts, I'm just asking you to take out the garbage. Unknown Speaker 35:18 Reason I want to come up with this slide is, for two reasons. First of all, because I like Fred Rogers, I'm one of the I'm never on the leading edge of faith. I grew up in the 60s, and, Unknown Speaker 35:31 you know, and friends, and involved in Unknown Speaker 35:34 all the movements, and I was involved in all the movements. And I think we did believe that we can change the world, certainly, and change the relationships between the sexes. And all of us believed that it was going to be a different world for us when we got older and have families or children or whatever. And the fact of the matter is that change doesn't occur that quickly in our culture, or anywhere else. And in our companies, we are discovering that it is a lifelong effort to change the attitudes of people about how they think about people who are different, whether they are different color, or their gender, or they're disabled, or older, or whatever. So we may all be working out that hopefully through our lifetimes, and our children wish or may probably be doing that too. But we know it's possible to change people's behavior, when when we get them to take out the garbage, Unknown Speaker 36:30 even if they don't like us. Unknown Speaker 36:33 And companies do that all the time to get business results. They do environmental warning people by incentives and disincentives. They do it by modeling, role models, they do it by a lot of different methods. And they can do the same thing. If they really want to change the opportunities for women and minorities in organizations that they want great advice. They can do it. They can change those behaviors while we work for the long term, changing the attitudes. So thank you very much, and a lot of material I'm glad Unknown Speaker 37:23 you get that promotion. Question The question I get my lawyer colleagues in the back row. I saw Morrison Forrester up there and having an award Unknown Speaker 38:00 for moving women up to China to do that. Unknown Speaker 38:09 Considering what happens to a secretary, or legal assistant who needs to leave 30 minutes early to meet her son's teacher at school on any given day, regardless of how much notice she has given Unknown Speaker 38:23 her supervisor. Well, I don't Unknown Speaker 38:26 know what you know about Morrison enforce. So maybe you have a friend that works there or something. But in fact, we spent a lot of time in Morrison and forester took the time to sit down with people in support roles in the organization. They have an incredible flexibility program for their support staff. I mean, it is very unusual culture. And we sat with people who men and women who talked about having a lot of flexibility and a lot of understanding about about their dependent care needs. It is very amazing organization very atypical. They also have women in significant leadership roles running areas of the practice, in the top roles. They have a lot of women litigators, which is Unknown Speaker 39:17 what happens when somebody needs to leave half an hour early to meet with her son's teacher well there Unknown Speaker 39:23 when someone needs to leave they do. And and I know what you said, in fact, recently, we went into an organization that has done an enormous amount of work to advance his female professionals because it has a very strong consciousness of the cost not doing that. And yet they were complaining about the fact that they made flexibility available. And lo and behold the Secretary and that really wasn't the group that they were interested in. You know that that wasn't the group that was costing them money. So we're actually working on a project to try and see what how we can work out? Unknown Speaker 40:08 Do you primarily see companies large companies? Or do they always come to Unknown Speaker 40:14 know as matter of fact, on all of these national research projects, for instance, a survey of CEOs we wrote to them, and we called him and asked if we could do an interview or have them answer a mail survey, or women and sales study, which went out into 21 companies and three industry sectors to look at how women are doing in sales. We actively tried to get into companies that were not known to catalyze not our supporters in any way or whatever. Because we wanted to look at these different industry groups. And we want to begin to understand what was going on? Unknown Speaker 40:56 I asked it specifically because it seems to be that within corporations and US investors strong support. So start from the top, right out, what about the US government? What about moving into the US government saying, Look, we should have a reasonable set of representation in the government in this country. And maybe they shouldn't be put through a program where they have to meet certain percentages every year, because otherwise corporate America is they're trying but they're not supportive? Unknown Speaker 41:25 I think, you know, and we, our mission has been focused deliberately, because we didn't, we never thought we could do everything. And there are other teams working on other fronts. But it's interesting that the glass ceiling commission, one of the conclusions they came to very early in their workings was that they needed to do some pilot projects, in governmental agencies and organizations. That was because they were going around the country talking about the glass ceiling, and there was a significant glass ceiling for government workers. And so as I understand it, there are some mild or pilot programs going on. I wish Joyce was here to Unknown Speaker 42:03 tell you about him, Unknown Speaker 42:04 but especially around the area of flexibility or trying to do something. Unknown Speaker 42:15 One of the things that I've experienced I've been around a long time, is that I used to kind of fight the system. And when I started saying, okay, there is a problem. Let me see if I can find some solutions. I didn't find the rejection at the top is great, because it was almost like they were looking for that antagonistic approach or something. And suddenly, if they knew they'd stick a needle in you, and you were gonna jump, then they would stick the needle if you didn't jump, and you said, Okay, now, how do we get through it? Suddenly, they started listening to you when they're not allowing. Unknown Speaker 43:09 So that was an effective strategy for you in your business. And I know Sylvia, you're going to be talking about individual strategies. Unknown Speaker 43:15 Yes. Yes. Okay, I think now we should go to to Linda workman to talk about RJR Nabisco and other things you're going to be tested if Unknown Speaker 43:46 I've been in a classroom guess. The fortunate thing about not having Joyce Miller here is that we get to use your time drank a little bit more time. Unknown Speaker 44:23 We still would rather that she were with us. Mary's presentation caused me to recall something that happened to me, or that I learned about many years ago when I was at another company and it was such a striking story at the time that even I guess eight or nine years later I I still remember it and I just like to share it with you. I had a friend and colleague at another company who was a manufacturing manager. And she had just been promoted in the manufacturing and she was the only woman, manufacturing manager in this particular plant along with a half a dozen or so male managers. And when she would go to staff meetings that she had the second level manager was a male also. And when she would go to staff meetings, she was always amazed to find that the men somehow already knew what the agenda was, what was going to be said, and what the decision was going to be. And yet there was very little discussion at these meetings. So she being a resourceful person. Found out that what actually was happening was that these men were meeting in the men's room prior to the actual staff meeting, having the discussion, and then they would go into the staff meeting. So having observed this, the next week, when the staff meeting was to be held, she got there early, walked into the men's room, and found all of her colleagues there, as she suspected much to their shock. And when they asked her, Well, Fran, what what are you doing here? You know, this, her response to them was, isn't this is Isn't this where the staff meetings me? You know, that was the last time that ever happened. That was the last time they held the meeting before the meeting and excluded her from that particular. Absolutely. And she was promoted there after she. The man has to choose to experience that it's painful to know that you have a great deal to offer that you have unlimited potential that you have a great talent. And yet to also know that, in many organizations, the passageways to the top which are open to others, are close to you, simply because you are a woman. My purpose as a member of this panel is to overview one company's efforts to ensure that the passageways to the top are open to women, and are open to all talented individuals of all backgrounds and all characteristics and all companies and I'm going to use the term company and organization interchangeably, but I I'm from a company so I kind of naturally fall into that. All companies and organizations have cultures and those organizations whose cultures value the individual. And not only respect but welcome and embrace the differences among people will be those that do not tolerate glass ceilings, or glass walls as Mary was saying, or if Joyce Miller were here, sticky floors. Or any other barrier, for that matter. That limits an individual's contribution to the enterprise and limits that person's ability to achieve his or her full potential. In these organizations, the passageways to the top are, are truly open to everyone. RJR Nabisco is a company that I work for. And we are working very hard to make our company that kind of organization. For those of you who are not familiar with RJR Nabisco, let me just tell you a little bit about it. We are a company of 66,500 employees worldwide. with annual sales of $15 billion. We make Oreos and fake news Unknown Speaker 49:24 retinas, fat free, fake news, and I mean, it's unbelievable the number of products that food and tobacco products. You probably see our ads on television all the time. Unknown Speaker 49:44 We do business in over 160 countries and territories. Our corporate headquarters is in midtown Manhattan, where we have 150 employees. We have four operating company's, which are wholly owned subsidiaries, and that is Nabisco foods group, which is based in East Hanover, New Jersey. This go international based here in New York, RJ Reynolds Tobacco in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and RJ Reynolds Tobacco International. Also, domestically, we employ about 45,000 people. We're a fortune 25 company. In early 1991, we undertook a very aggressive Workforce Diversity Initiative at the direction of the Chairman of our Board, who at that time, it was Lou Gerstner. He's now idea. We and we began this by taking the top 30 People in our in all of our operating companies and our corporate headquarters, who had responsibility for anything that resembled workforce diversity. And we were still trying to figure out for ourselves what this was all about. But we we tapped some people throughout the company to help us work on this. And we all went down to North Carolina for two days. And we spent two intensive days together to begin this process of understanding diversity as a business issue, because corporations do things for business reasons, fundamentally. And we want it to begin to lay the foundation for developing and implementing diversity strategies in all of our companies worldwide. Sylvia overviewed, earlier that the definitions of equal opportunity, affirmative action and valuing and managing diversity, and let me just emphasize that EEO and affirmative action continue to be very, very critical compliance issues, and considerations for companies that are federal contractors in particular, and the glass ceiling. And this glass ceiling commission. If you listen to Joyce Miller, talk about the glass ceiling. And I've heard her more than once. It's very clear that it's a compliance issue. It's how many women do you have in senior management? How many women do you have in middle management, it's numbers. That's the way the government views this issue. The way I view it is somewhat different. Because my perspective is that of a corporation, I believe that the removal of the glass ceiling will be most effectively achieved not by a law that says, which we already have, by the way, which says, You shouldn't be discriminating. And you should be taking affirmative action, but rather by the creation of a culture in an organization that truly values differences among people and recognizes that if you have a diversity of viewpoints, you have a better result. For for our company, the business reasons for valuing diversity, or the business case, for valuing diversity is very clear. And I just like to summarize for you what those considerations are, first of all, and and I would assume be telling our senior executives this, I would tell them the same thing that I'm telling you now. If they asked me. Unknown Speaker 54:04 We need to hire talented people, if we're going to be successful in a very competitive global environment. It's as simple as that. And talented people come in lots of different shapes and sizes and colors and packages. Women comprise over 50% of the workforce. Minorities are growing faster than ever before in our population, particularly Hispanics. The Americans with Disabilities Act has opened the doors of companies and the employment opportunities that lie within to 10 Literally 10s of millions of people with disabilities, two thirds of whom have never before been employed. The population is aging at a rapid rate. Today there are as many Americans age 65 and older as there are people in Canada. And the number of by the year I think 2050 will be 69 million people over the age of six and findings. Traditional definitions of family are changing, they're being replaced by dual career households, single parents, extended families, domestic partner arrangements, more and more gay and lesbian individuals are coming out in the workplace. And this this one you may not have thought of. See, I think you know, all of this already, probably to customers, shareholders and investors are having growing expectations of companies. They aren't just interested in how a company performs financially. They care about how it performs on a wide variety of social issues. What is the company doing to break the glass ceiling? How many women do you have on your board? How many women and minorities do you have in senior management? Do you provide aid to education in the workplace? Do you support the work and family needs of your employees? These are real questions that come from real shareholders and real potential investors that companies need to be prepared to respond to if they're going to be successful. In the next century. changing demographics, which I've already mentioned, also have major implications for consumer patterns. We're a consumer products, companies. So we worry a lot about this. The distribution of buying power in the population is changing more women are working more has more normies. Hispanics, for example, and gays and lesbians are much more widely being recognized as groups with tremendous buying power. And as a result of that, companies are responding. And you're seeing it in ways designed to reach these market segments. Part of this response includes having a workforce whose composition reflects the workforce of what your customer base so that you're, you're better able to respond to your customers needs, you know what your customers want. And you are better able to satisfy them. It's really very simple. So it's against this background, that RJR, Nabisco developed, undertook this initiative, first of all. And in June of 1992, after a great deal of elimin, airy work, we developed a corporate Workforce Diversity Leadership statement, which was distributed to all of our operating companies. And I'm going to pass that out to you. This document is really the foundation and the commitments on which our diversity strategy and our diversity efforts are based. Unknown Speaker 58:36 I'm also going to hand out to you one other thing. And this is simply another example, just a small example really, of how we get the diversity word out in our company. This is our 1994 Diversity calendar was developed on these every year, we send it out to every employee in headquarters and corporate headquarters, we send it out to our operating companies, we even send it outside the company, because a lot of people have expressed interest. So I thought I hand it to you. For us workforce diversity is an organizational change process. It is an organizational intervention. It's intended to create a culture and a work environment that values the differences among people that enables and encourages every individual to achieve their full potential and thereby to fully contribute to the organization. So as you can see, I think from from our Diversity Leadership statement, the term diversity to us really means everything that makes a person who they are. It is it is a whole individually. This is a long process. Achieving an organization like this does not happen. It doesn't happen in three years, which is how long we've been at it may not even happen in 10 years. But at least we've begun. And I'd like to give you just an overview of some of the things we've accomplished specifically as it relates to the hiring, development and placement of women in the workplace. One of the first things we did was to put some training in place for all of our managers. And eventually, this diversity training will reach every employee in the company. We have developed customized diversity training sessions that lasts up to two full days. And include in depth discussion on a personal level of gender issues. They also include discussion of issues concerning minorities and people with disabilities, and issues of sexual orientation. We're trying to raise the awareness and raise the the understanding and the consciousness among our employees and first among our managers, about what the dynamics are between men and women in the workplace, and between minorities and non minorities and between people as human beings. It's a long process. We also engage in targeted recruiting more at a more practical level, targeted recruiting of women according to our affirmative action plans to ensure that we include competitive women candidates, in addition to male candidates for jobs, it's not acceptable to say, Oh, we couldn't find any, they don't like to do this kind of work. We don't accept that. You just have to go out and find them. They're out there. It's it's not always easy. But we have a commitment to do that. We also provide developmental experiences for talented women in the company to prepare them for future advancement. Last year, for example, in Bisco, foods group promoted three women to Vice President. And, by the way, these were in line functions. And that brought the representation of women in in the executive ranks of Nabisco foods grew to over 40%. Unknown Speaker 1:02:56 That's pretty good. There's also a strong work and family component to our diversity initiative, we really refer to it as work life. Because we think it's more descriptive than inclusive of, of everybody. It's not just families, it's people who are single or single parents. It's, it includes your work, your family and your personal lives. We worked with the Families and Work Institute for two years conducting a study of issues in our workplace, conducting surveys of employees, and then we've taken that information and put together a broad set of recommendations, which will be released shortly and are intended to help our employees in balancing these many responsibilities. The cornerstone of that, by the way of our work life initiative, is management flexibility. We want our managers to feel that they can be flexible, and they should be flexible, as well as creative in how they work with individual employees to resolve their personal needs. The top executives in our company are annually evaluated on the progress of their organizations toward achieving their diversity objectives. And these evaluations impact the determination of executive bonuses that's very effective. You get their attention. But you have to have a very committed chairman to make that work. We have seen the grassroots formation just in the last year and a half of employee networking groups which never existed before in any of our operating companies. And we work closely with catalyst in making this happen. The Bisco and it's all More companies but Nabisco in particular, now has a women's forum have an African American employee group and the gay and lesbian group. And that is a remarkable indication of positive organizational change. We have women in the executive and I mean, the top executive management ranks of our corporate headquarters, and our operating companies, including women with product line experience, we have a woman on the board, over 20% of our officers are women. And finally, we work with outside organizations to help make this happen. We work closely with Catalyst very closely, we're, I think we really have a partnership with Catalyst. Also with the Center for the new American workforce. We work very closely, we're a member of Washington University's work and family roundtable. We work with the Families and Work Institute I mentioned. And there, there's a whole nother group, but I'm just giving you those that are the most important to us. We do participate in community events, in an effort to raise consciousness about what issues of importance to women. Next week, for example, how many of you are taking your daughter's tour? Next week? Unknown Speaker 1:06:23 Anybody? Nobody? How many of you are daughters who are going to work? All of you, right? Well, any of you, if you want to join us, come on down. We'll give you a daughter will adopt you. For the day. We are We last year for the first time. We participated and take our daughters to work day. And it was fantastic. It really was the president of the company spoke to a group of about 20 girls from the age of five on up. And in his comment afterwards, it was one of the toughest audiences. This year, we're going to have another in fact, a much larger group. And in fact, we are bringing in some girls from other other areas, other organizations who don't have someone to take. But we're going to have presentations by several of our female executives. And we have quite an eventful day plan. So please feel free to join us. Have we made progress I think we have in three years definitely made progress. But there is much more to do than what we have achieved. With continued attention, I do think our workforce will become increasingly supportive of women. I also think that women can and should do some things to help themselves in overcoming glass, the glass ceiling, breaking it whatever shattering it which helped women as individuals, and which also helped to accelerate, accelerate the organizational change process. And I have three points in particular, to suggest, first of all, take primary responsibility for planning your own career. Don't rely on somebody else to do it for you, because they won't do it. Number one, and if they try, they'll probably get it wrong. Don't be afraid to ask your supervisor for what you want. If you want to go to a training session if you want to, to break through a glass wall and get some sort of lateral experience. make that known. Make your supervisor aware of your wishes and your expectations concerning your own development and advancement. Also, make it clear that you're willing to do whatever you have to do in order to get there. But but don't shrink from being clear about what you want to achieve. And that includes getting above the glass ceiling. Secondly, believe you can do it. Whatever it is, you need to believe in yourself. And don't be afraid to take some risks on the way the women who have made it to the top haven't gotten there by accident in most cases. They've gotten there because they had a vision of But what sucks what success meant to them. And if I may, quote Queen Victoria we are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. Very good. Thirdly, I would encourage you to network, like you're doing today and network within your own organization, both formally informally with other women. The creation of formalized communication networks, such as the women's group at the disco, can help to facilitate the identification and solution of issues in the workplace. I was speaking with someone at the disco just last week, a woman who really was instrumental in getting this started. And she could hardly wait to tell me that as a result of this group, and the networking that occurred, there was a woman in the Bisco, who got a promotion that she would not have otherwise had, because she knew a woman in a higher position who was looking for somebody. That's the way it should be. I mean, that's a success story. But that really can happen. Unknown Speaker 1:11:13 In closing, I'd like to leave you with, with two things that may help just a little when the going gets particularly tough. And if we had an overhead projector, I would put this on an overhead. But since I don't, I did come prepared with hard copies. Unknown Speaker 1:11:41 One is a cartoony because the ads here to those that Mary already provided, thank you. And the seconds are. Have you ever felt this way? Unknown Speaker 1:12:19 It was never everybody? I don't have children. Unknown Speaker 1:12:42 But I can tell you I felt that way. So that's one thing on the lighter side. And in addition, I like to leave with you with just a phrase that I read recently from Eleanor Roosevelt. And that is, remember, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Are there any tests? Unknown Speaker 1:13:19 You mentioned quite briefly, the genesis of the diversity of programming RJR? Yes, that it came from the very top of your corporation, where I assume perhaps you were lucky as a corporation to have very an enlightened white guy, right. I've worked. Unknown Speaker 1:13:44 And I guess correctly, I of course, work in a very Unknown Speaker 1:13:47 different environment, a labor union. We're nowhere near the resources that RJR has. But I initiated a project and I'm now trying to carry out a project to address some of the issues in my industry, which is an industry According to the Labor Department, which is about 80% female, but which the unionized sector is predominantly male. So my organization both the union local and the national umbrella organization, of course, the AFL CIO itself is predominantly male. And what I'm trying to do in our local jurisdiction is conduct hiring whereby we place unemployed restaurant workers into immunized restaurant jobs as a means of trying to dress the stratification we have in our industry were the highest paying jobs, which are waiters, chefs, Maitre D's. fancy expensive restaurants are overwhelmingly male Independent Women in our industry tend to work in positions, coffee shops and cafeterias. I'm very fortunate that the head of my organization is also a very enlightened white guy. And so he will I have to fight for my resources. But true, it is possible. But I'm just curious in an in an organization like a corporate environment like RJR. If you could elaborate a little bit on the genesis of this diversity project, did it just pop out of his head full blown? Was there some more inspiration behind it? Unknown Speaker 1:15:37 It pretty much was just born. We went our company went through the largest leveraged buyout in American history in 1989. And as part of that process took on $26 billion in debt. When we were purchased by an outside investment firm called Kohlberg, Kravis and Roberts, and when they bought us, they wiped out the top of the company and brought in a new chairman, and that Chairman, hired his own management team. And so the people in the corporate headquarters today are almost to a person, not the people who were there. Prior to the LBO. Movers Gerstner happens to be very visionary, he happens to have a good touch for what the sub what the relationship should be between the company in terms of social issues, you know, what's really going to contribute to the business. And he had two initiatives that he wanted to put in place at the corporate level. Now I understand we have almost 67,000 employees, but we only have 150 people in the corporate headquarters, and of those that are only, like six and human resources at the director level. And above. This is a very lean company. And we're very decentralized. So we don't get in, we don't run hands on our operating companies, we just deal with the policy and the leadership level, the two initiatives that he was interested in Word, workforce diversity in education. And, and there was yeah, he said, What did you say it just popped out? I think that's probably a fair description, and an unusual case. Yes, sort of a Unknown Speaker 1:17:41 follow up. Question, Unknown Speaker 1:17:44 some stuff that Mary was saying earlier. I mean, at the risk of sounding a little bit cynical, is it realistic to think that that companies are going to suddenly become enlightened and realize, geez, there's this wonderful, vast pool of untapped resources that we're not moving into? Or is it going to be an anecdotal situation of CEOs having executive vice presidents or vice presidents who suddenly have a child and they want to keep her when they need to do something? And they realize, by default, that, gee, there's a whole rest of the employee population that's being touched by this too? Or, you know, a CEO who has a daughter who's encountering a situation at work? How much? How much more likely? Isn't that it's an anecdotal situation, but to promise these kinds of changes in large companies or smaller companies? And how much is it the case that, that it really is a commitment to Unknown Speaker 1:18:42 seeing the length? Well, I can say, from our experience, we've been working in the last few years with a lot of financial services organizations. And they have for some years now been hiring about 50% of women, from the top tier schools and these women, and they're in the top tier of their classes, and they're coming in entry level. And they're moving through the progression, which is a very lockstep progression in many organizations. And then all of a sudden, in the back in year five or seven, they start to leave. And this is not, you know, a social issue. This is a is a real business issue, because you can't plug the hole there. And you know, some of the studies have shown that the cost of turnover for professional is about 150% of a year's salary. These are highly specialized people who have who have developed a lot of clients and who have really made contributions to the organization. They are costing disorganization, phenomenal amounts of money, and it is purely self interest. From my perspective, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the best way for this change to occur. Because I don't believe people do anything to set themselves interest. Maybe I'm cynical, but I think the problem Is how do you what do you do in organizations where you don't have that critical mass of women, or minorities, where companies don't perceive that it's costing them very much when these people leave, they don't even notice when they leave. So you have a different, you have to create a different business case, but one of them is that you know, your consumer base, your stakeholders are all changing, and they won't tolerate. Unknown Speaker 1:20:23 I would just like to add to that, and then I think we've gone. But if it were anecdotal, first of all, I think anecdotal helps a lot. When the Chairman has a daughter can't get hired, you know, issues of a woman somewhere or the Chairman has a daughter who was having trouble getting childcare somewhere else and, and having job fallout from that it helps a lot. But has it gotten us very far. I mean, think about it, if we were relying on anecdotal momentum, to get us beyond the glass ceiling, we're never going to get there. So Unknown Speaker 1:21:06 I do think that corporate pay, but he hasn't changed in 10 years, and that it's really dangerous to hire people who appreciate the little paper, they don't get a number of years, because the middle management was making 40 $45,000, last year, 10 years ago, and there's been no buys at all. And of those, but I'm I was watching, I think that it would be wise to advise people that maybe the corporation is not a place to make a life, it's a place to spend a few years of your life by making a glass ceiling, the Holy Grail, you imagine that there's a whole life's worth of the advancement inside the corporation. And that is, America shown that that's not true. Look at the neocon in your corporation, you fired anybody and started fresh. So to say that you can manage your career in such a way that you will get to the last thing is to encourage this ideology. But that brings you to feel that the Holy Grail is inside the corporation. And in fact, it is it's for the guy who's headed up and making content to the knowledge to very few people who have signed a worldwide existence beyond a certain age, and maybe that's why they get fired. Who did who was doing that cannot? Unknown Speaker 1:22:34 Okay, and let me just say we have one common thread for this. But I wanted to comment with what you have to say. And a lot of what I have to say is dealing with your issue isn't matter of fact, Unknown Speaker 1:22:47 it's kind of striking that people have said, some of what I was thinking of saying, I teach in the School of Business, and I'm an accountant by profession. So a lot of these issues, you know, about what, what the corporation wants to do is very clear to me. I mean, you know, I'm teaching about the bottom line. And the other part of me is, I'm a feminist. So it's hard to kind of reconcile this. And in some sense, you know, I hate to put you on the spot, but I'm going to play the devil's advocate. And I know and I go before companies, and when I go before economists as to why they should do this, you give them the turnover rate, you give them the justification of training costs. But what if, in fact, it was more costly to install childcare facilities than the cost of turnover, then Unknown Speaker 1:23:43 we wouldn't get it is that Unknown Speaker 1:23:45 what basically happens, I mean, so we have to go out and do the research to try and convince and, quote, manipulate them, that it is profitable to them. Because if it wasn't profitable to the corporations, we would not be getting it because they are benign. And it is just for them to provide childcare facilities. And it is just for them to have affirmative action. You're saying that basically, our strategy must be because it's for the bottom line, it's more security. Absolutely. That's business. For the day, we're really not changing. We're really not changing anything very much. We are dealing with their ideology, you're dealing with their level of dialogue. Now, I can go along with this because I'm pragmatic too, but it makes me sad. I want to we're still living in a patriarchal kind of when. Unknown Speaker 1:24:37 When you say I'm not sure I'm fully understanding what you're saying, but I can tell you that no organization is going to put in a childcare center just put in a trial. Here's Unknown Speaker 1:24:50 I would, if I was I was, quote, ruling the world. The first thing is we all get tampons. And the second thing is we all provide equal will access both males and females to both work, you know, to choice of work and family, you know, I'm saying, Unknown Speaker 1:25:06 that's fine. That's your decision. If you're, if you're, you know, running a world, that's what you would do, I don't think you're going to find very many organizations that are going to do that just for the sake of doing it. We spent two years studying the work and family issue in our company. And we wanted to be responsive to the real needs that our employees had. Now, if they had come back and said, We want a childcare center, which they didn't find a what we would have been looked at that and tried to see how we could make that happen. But we don't want to be responding to a need that doesn't exist. And so we have shaped our response based on what our employees are telling Unknown Speaker 1:25:50 us. So what if they wanted it but it was still more costly, it would affect the bottom line, let Unknown Speaker 1:25:55 me just say this, that this is something that one businessman told me, and he said very simply that he has us in a position to do two ones, he could have installed a childcare center, within the organization, the key has shareholders or lose showing no, it has all these people say that it's if it's not going to be productive. Now, you don't always have to look at dollars and cents, you have to look at numbers, but you don't have to look at dollars and cents, because there's more to keeping an employee the size 150% Charge, if you keep a good employee who's going to do good work, who's a who's a star, and you don't want to lose that person, because that person or those group of people doesn't have childcare facilities. So we try to make allowances to make sure that they get what they need to stay in produce for your content. So if it comes back, I think, you know, we have word this discussion that continues. But let me just want to Unknown Speaker 1:26:58 say to users that is costly to the company, because mothers will stay home with two children. If they're not provided with the company. It's not the turnover, it's sent to us. Very, very close. Unknown Speaker 1:27:16 We want people to be at work. And Unknown Speaker 1:27:20 yeah, I can't just say we can all go back to talking about what they said. Okay. Unknown Speaker 1:27:31 Sacrifice of the model. Unknown Speaker 1:27:34 I just wanted to tell you that I'm Director of the Center for the new miracle workforce, if you want to know anything about it, we just have some prospectuses right here that will tell all of that the organization that just came off the press, and I'm not going to spend any more time we're going to spend it on what I want to say to you. Which is basically I'm going to talk to you about some of the strategies on a person to person thing. So strategies that executive women, women who have said or who appear to have gone above the glass ceiling. I started collecting these stories. They're not worth doing. But I started very interested in the personal when we had a when the center had a focus group in September 1992. And we had there about 20 women executives from across the country. A good number that later was selected by Businessweek reporting, or other journals, as being the top business women in the country. And so that we make good choices. What I'm trying to say is they are highly position will pay. And they all all of them said that they were not above a ceiling. When Mary said this was a jagged pick, it's jagged because you are women and people of color are different people who are different reach glass ceilings. And finally, here's another one abroad. I don't think that's permanent. I think that's temporary. And I think that these people, these women executives that were in the focus groups talked about, it's no longer just the old boys network they were talking about before. They were talking about the boys in the attic. No joke, they had gotten to the top floor, and there were still boys in the attic. And some of them were talking and they turned it back and some of them were talking about just because the old boys network may be fading out what's coming in as a new boys. And they're coming in with further variation. It's like a mutation that gets mutation is not that they're there. They're in with the same voice following the same voice but now they're fighting against equally qualified women. Send it They're even more ferocious, and they're even more tied together. So I mean, like, there's something to consider about all this. There are a couple problems that I want to talk to get when we talk about the glare. So you're not talking about people who just are competent. And we're talking about people who excel, because most of the time women and minorities to get to or either approach, what they see is the barrier, if they've gone beyond meeting the qualifications for a job. And it comes to the point where there's a discretion when there's a choice between one person and another person. And it's not by filling qualifications, because all of them feel the qualifications. That's where the glass ceiling comes in. That's when it becomes a discretionary issue. And we have to focus those attentions on the one that you think we are very was explaining about the barriers in a situation. A lot of the women that were in this notice who spoke about their, they were almost like pioneers moving and they were the first and this and the first of that. And they had certain things to go through a lot. Some of them were aware that they were going through and some of them were not aware, because they just said this is what they wanted to do. And they were just going to go ahead and do it. But it turned out that when they reached a certain point in the organization, they were accepted. And they became what they call honorary males. This meant that they were accepted on their own terms. And I just have two stories woman, one woman who, who wants to use in the focus group with the highest ranking woman in this particular industry. Now she's even higher yet because she was just made CEO and President of another organization when she said that she was the first woman going up, going up that ladder. And she said that the men in the upper echelon decided they were going to get together to acquaint them with the issues going to retreat to know what are the current problems and concerns of the company. And the first they didn't invite her. The next year, they did invite her because the chairman felt so terrible, he he left out the woman. So where do they take their retreat, and this is honest to god, this is a true story. They took their retreat and one of the wilderness things that you go, you know, the thing is, this woman just happened to be an outdoorsy woman. And all the men were waiting for her to fail, you know, not jump the rope or whatever, fall down a cliff. Unknown Speaker 1:32:36 And she didn't. And she didn't do that. So when she came out, she came out as well as anybody else and did it nonchalantly or you because this was just this is where she conducted her entire career because when she came out of it, they had made her sort of the honorary male. And in another kit in that same one woman said that she came up to me and she was the only woman in this decision making body. And while they were walking out of the meeting, another male person in there started talking to her complaining about some constituency he had to work with in this financial services industry. And instead, it's just like working with a woman. Yeah, and she's standing up. He was saying it to her because he didn't he no longer Unknown Speaker 1:33:28 saw her as a woman. Unknown Speaker 1:33:29 He saw her as an honoree. Now, there are things that they all they all said that they did, and that they feel that people come into the mind. One of the things they did was and this relates to what we talked about this morning. None of them were queen bees, none of these people. I'm not saying that. Just because I know a copy personally. But the these women will not change these but they they do