Unknown Speaker 00:09 Joining me in the story tatman scalper Alex thinking about the way to have this discussion, dive into the problem, I wanted to start off by explaining why we proceeded to write papers with it. And one of the reasons for it was that when we sat down to actually begin to think about reproductive rights it is hard to talk about with the donkey life, in any case, in isolation from the lives of women in general. And so we felt that the best thing to do the best procedural way to do it was to just begin by talking about how women are oppressed. But when we, in discussing it, we thought that we'll have that type of background be helpful. It's just for people reading it just get a sense of where we were coming from when we went on to discuss the actual topic itself. Just Leslie to get right. We went through a focused discussion on that, is that, okay? People have any questions? Unknown Speaker 01:40 Right, so we wanted the paper to be focused in understanding as well on how women are oppressed in general, because that's when that's my consent. That is how I see women being denied reproductive rights is just the oppression of women in general. Like, I can't talk, I can talk about reproductive rights in terms of the right to abortion, but I find that it's a restricted concept, particularly if you want to try to integrate lesbian or gay rights into it. Having said all that, I guess the main thing that we wanted to do with discus on page seven, notice, there was a lot of questions. It's sort of polls. To summarize the the dynamics that was moving the dynamics that sort of indicate the relationship between lesbian rights and reproductive for you, and that's in those mainly what actually wanted to talk about Unknown Speaker 02:53 you know, pretty flexible, sort of pick up on points or add things sort of want to stress also that this is a working paper in there. You know, conceptually. Unknown Speaker 03:18 We may have anything to say, I like Unknown Speaker 03:22 your analysis. Unknown Speaker 03:25 And I think it is the right way to look at it or whatever. However, when you're dealing with them out there, whoever you have to deal at some point, this is Unknown Speaker 03:40 talking about abortion rights, but Unknown Speaker 03:42 about the, the emotional side of it. And this whole business of murdering, and all that kind of thing, which, which obscures all the real issues. And so, but somehow, at some level, have you dealt with him? Any ideas about that? How do you get beyond that, to try to bring this kind of analysis to people who are pro lifers, or whatever? pro life was, and I don't think, Unknown Speaker 04:08 to deal with that extreme hero. Unknown Speaker 04:11 Out of the way I relate to it, it's not me, it's something I've thought about because lately, I mean, you've probably read this with essays where people have talked about how, in, you know, recently, progressive magazine, and all these places have printed pro and con discussions on abortion. And even and I've had some discussions like that, but some of my friends who will say, Well, you know, abortion really is, it is an ethical question, but I personally don't believe it is. And I think that, to me, it sort of is important for women to begin the argument with the assumption that my life is worth what the fetus in this fetus is an unknown, and it's in my mind is, is that it's like, if I had cancer would not sit around. Once it was removed, that would be it. No, if I decide wishing I was sort of approached it the same way. And I wouldn't want to have to be glad that I've made the step and did it I wouldn't have made him. I mean, I know that other women have Unknown Speaker 05:09 different reactions. I think my point is more that it's so easy to emotionalize. Unknown Speaker 05:14 Yeah, that you never really get down to Unknown Speaker 05:16 this, and I don't know, hard to get past a session sometimes. Unknown Speaker 05:26 To focus this, obviously, lesbians have made a decision that very clearly affects their reproductive freedom, that unless they are raped, or choose to engage in intercourse with purpose of having, they are not going to have children. So what I thought was an interesting thing for us to think about. Why is it important? For Less people to navigate a very, you know, venture? Bucha? Well, no, sure. Unknown Speaker 05:58 You're way too Unknown Speaker 06:00 close. You know that? You know, you don't want that kind of stuff to show on. So why was it important for lesbians to be involved in these issues, which dealt directly concern that we've set up, which is, rather than the analysis of, you know, use the oppression of women caused by capitalism? That's the direction I'd like to see the discussion going. Right, rather than these questions here, Unknown Speaker 06:37 what we want to discuss is the goat and Why will people respond to that? Because I, first of all, I think there's some policies and what you just said, and that is that women, lesbians do have children and lesbians, by choice, see, Unknown Speaker 06:51 lesbians, Unknown Speaker 06:52 lesbians do get raped and get pregnant sometimes as a result of Unknown Speaker 06:58 what I just said, I send that too often, all right, I mean, whether or not you choose to control through Unknown Speaker 07:09 choice, lesbianism or someone else is choosing to have an abortion, the tuition do tie together. Terms indicate control. But the whole Unknown Speaker 07:21 point is that the analysis being the whole sort of picture that shows a direct relationship with why it is why Muslims have struggled with rice, seeing as as it's the attack against religion stems, from the same sort of structural system, we can get all sorts of books. Because it's kind of it's part of the same politics. And I think Unknown Speaker 07:53 in a way I disagree with your analysis, in the sense that communists are just as against lesbians and against women, as capitalists aren't so fascist or just as against with Communists. So I thought that you know, if we were to discuss that question, it takes us away from the point so, so I really disagree. I thought that people were homophobic. And that that was an important concept if people were terrified of homosexuality. And not because of their political or economic reasons, but because because of some native terror that they have. But the psychological really Unknown Speaker 08:50 isn't separate from the political I think I really liked what was that point about? Unknown Speaker 09:00 That helped my Unknown Speaker 09:06 thing is the way I'm looking at homophobia is that homophobia to me sort of symbolizes sort of like a one on one thing, like, you know, you might, you know, sister, like my sister sort of homophobic, you know, and I can struggle with her until she's not homophobic anymore, but still. You know, but the impression I feel as a lesbian woman or experience as lesbian is not really tied up in those one on one things, although there is sort of an ideological basis for the question of lesbians, but it's sort of based in it's based in concrete reality too, which is sort of how I see the difference between homophone and it's not to deny that homophobia Unknown Speaker 09:54 is a culture that culture is appropriate, and that it is a concrete reality Unknown Speaker 09:59 but because it's not homophobic, it's heterosexism. Because what's in the culture that's presented is male? I mean, it's actually something presented in this culture. There's nothing hidden about it. And when you look on television, most of the sign time is men and what men and women, when you go to the movies, it's men and women. And that is, I mean, there's nothing hidden. They're very upfront about the fact that what they, what they're advocating is heterosexuality. I mean, they don't. You don't? How would you? I mean, before, you know, before I started, before I became a lesbian, actually, you know, I didn't know that many lesbians. So, you know, I don't even know that they existed, actually. So I mean, that sort of says to me, that there's not must not be that much homophobia, it's, you know, it's not a fear, because I wasn't going around fear. And I was going around looking, but the thing is the culture, there was no, there was no way of we were finding lesbians. At that time, this was like, you know, 10 years ago, besides going down to the village and hoping and praying and see somebody who might know, know, something, so it's not really the culture is very clear. And I Unknown Speaker 11:08 feel that people are one of the reasons why it keeps you Kinsey report makes it very clear that there is a certain percentage of the population that are listening. And are always has to know, why are those people? Why isn't every 10th house, you know, a happy couple. The reason is because there is an active effort to stamp out that every tab TV program got it, because people are terrified that Unknown Speaker 11:48 this is homophobia isn't in historical problem. I mean, I just read a review in The Times Book Review a couple of weekends ago about a woman who has done a study on lesbian couples through history, and that it's only until like the 20th century, that this has been something that's threatening and scary. And if if homophobia was sort of this subliminal fear and terror that everyone has, it's natural to them as a human being. No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't change forms throughout time, it's a sport. Unknown Speaker 12:21 We're setting ourselves up for silly way against each other. And I think this can be a form for is issues, lesbians and motherhood, our personal responses as lesbians and political responses to what motherhood is about, you know, I teach I know what first being mothers to love issues about us meaning to really understand that. I think there's definitely helping COVID In the present day society because even though it didn't used to be fine, and now it is because it represents the anti structure, and they were Women Without Men and lesbian mothers are women raising children. And there's just there's so many aspects of this that why don't we just listen to each other's different opinions and not say yes or no. Unknown Speaker 13:04 Although you agree that yes or no is an aspect you have to show what you want to say, we shouldn't be afraid to say Unknown Speaker 13:15 just so much awareness issue. Unknown Speaker 13:19 Perspectives It isn't like there was one of the other things introduced a personal goal or personal solution, I hope you will be okay. And it's not an individual. It's created by political historical situation, a common cause it isn't these individuals that are making Unknown Speaker 14:12 you see psychological systems that arise from the peace of fear from Unknown Speaker 14:31 what you're saying, though, is that, I mean, homophobia implies fear of a particular thing. A phobia is fear of an elevator or homosexual. That means it's a separate thing and what you're saying if it's a deep fear of a thing, and you're like saying that lesbians are separate, and you know, people are scared of lesbians and that's not saying that, not saying they're lesbians, and then there's the rest of the world and to be tolerant. You know, we've learned to be tolerant and the people are different. because it's really not, you know, that's that's really separatism in a really bad sense Unknown Speaker 15:06 or afraid of the concept of lives within themselves and with others. I mean, what I've said isn't necessarily shut shepherdess isn't necessarily Unknown Speaker 15:22 No, just saying that there's a lesbian, and then there's not a listening and saying that people are that fear of lesbianism is fear of this particular woman who happens to be a lesbian, and she's different from other women not connected other women, Unknown Speaker 15:40 you know, well, people who feel that way. I think that Unknown Speaker 15:45 might feel like that, because they don't see. And we're taught that lesbians are different and it's all separate issues. Now. The whole point is to see that it's not separate for the lesbians, not several lesbian, it's a woman in a particular society. Yeah did you want to say Unknown Speaker 16:33 I knew I feel very strongly about that identity, as opposed to gay person. With that being said, when it comes to certain civil rights issues very concerned about the political. And personally, I don't want to do it. In fact, as elected in divorce, I think politically constantly, artificial insemination is extremely. Particularly when the sooner that it is possible to do that act as a variation. The thing with new production, just as there are infinite variations in sexual expression, you know, something, some I hurt your kids hands or pain or whatever it is that mediates between you and another person to see a child, there's nothing artificial about them. That's a human act. And it's a variation on a Republican reproduction. And so I'm concerned with some of those issues, as well as seeing reproductive freedom in a much broader life than the questions of abortion and sterilization and abuse, which are crucial. I've also had an abortion feel very deeply emotional at the same time that, you know, I've never had any, ever in my life problem without any woman under any circumstances. With that, Unknown Speaker 18:39 when we were writing this, I actually talked to somebody about talking about that in the paper. And this woman was a friend of mine told me said, Well, you know, that's a weird thing, because it looks like the state is out to like, prevent, you know, women from even having no women from artificial insemination, and also gives us hope move to stop. Unknown Speaker 19:11 So she was well, it made me when I talk about that too much. But I think that's why we didn't include it. But actually we thought about that was just in response to the fact that it's becoming more of a secretive thing. I mean, he was the worst. Unknown Speaker 19:32 That is sort of another attack on freedom to not be able to have the right artificially inseminated if you want. It's just I just see them all these issues is related to issues of control. Know, the more women that are places the more you know, it's hard for society to survive sort of that the under labor of women and so to you know, just to have this push to keep us back in any way prosperous artificial insemination sort of got to the point they suddenly went out I don't know if anyone has had any problems with artificial insemination yet but I'm so this is going to be the next thing is that it's going to be an Unknown Speaker 20:23 artificial and suburban arrangement with so many issues and what does a woman feel entitled to know his biological child is crucial things to consider concerning very deeply and I can't in good conscience make a decision what I want you been following your job. Unknown Speaker 21:02 I know they just asked me that was not a job. They just asked me to do it. And I said I wouldn't be women Center Unknown Speaker 21:18 The only issue of the artificial insemination which is always the problem was the testing. Anyway, your kids I mean, if someone's if someone decides to whoever it might be a family member of yours or a parent or a neighbor, to tell someone that you're raising children even bigger needs to take the kids away until you know court proceedings like last year, you may lose a child. So it's very scary thing. I don't feel like I want to do something like that for a long time. So I was pretty sure that I could work it out. So to deal with artificial insemination or however to deal with ways to talk about it, that's that's Unknown Speaker 22:07 why this kid is different, why'd Unknown Speaker 22:09 you and your lover or yourself or whatever, you know, whatever your situation is. I've been very concerned about that. I think that's going to be really it's gonna be there's one sort of anecdote about this one case Unknown Speaker 22:31 the children were taken away from the mother given to the grandparents and the point that was making in the article was that wasn't it strange that too to this woman's gonna read the game Unknown Speaker 23:05 just a positive slope and a lot of happy children. So it's a whole rash of that there's really positive western communities their families where case have parents different days and they have different parents but it really takes a child to Wednesday afternoon so the mother is just a really wonderful support system terrific kids and growing up in a complete list environment and yet coping just one of the most healthy kids in the world who can handle very well both mothers sisters that were in the bus recently and just flat for the first time introducing it's a really nice thing for me because I know that I have to save money to do that. And to know that we can make the decision to do it Unknown Speaker 24:13 to do real fashion I don't know. Unknown Speaker 24:18 I mean, I consider artificial insemination. I can't really I have one very very good. I don't really want to share Well, I mean he's a really good person in that way but I feel myself so I've kind of eliminated that possibility because anybody else right that's Unknown Speaker 24:58 I I'm a charming person by I don't need to make another body for the world for their loss of morale, and Unknown Speaker 25:03 then I might end up taking one except for you're not gonna get the biggest but what do I mean, I did not fit the rules in Unknown Speaker 25:11 this network? I think I might be wrong. I've met women who said that a lot of stuff. They said there's an enormous Unknown Speaker 25:31 lazy man's own children, it seems to be the day with them. Unknown Speaker 25:35 But that's different, because you've got men very involved. Unknown Speaker 25:42 I think it's important question whether it's one thing to talk about, for us to understand the connection between lesbians and reproductive rights. But and to see how that separate from what you were saying that the fear the fear whether or not we want to people involved in reproductive rights issues to the public, whether this it's important to show the world that connection, or whether that's something that shouldn't be, you know, sort of not talked about, because they already have Jerry Falwell telling them, there's no weather, which is safer? Because it seems like so difficult to if we don't even agree that there's a connection? Is it? Does it make it worse for us and for reproductive rights to show to say that there's measles? Unknown Speaker 26:43 But I don't know, I think that's probably one of the major problems was that, and that really, from what I can tell that willing to take up the issue of less, right to less, to be less or more than whatever, as every issue, and I get the feeling that that a lot of the reasons, because once you get affiliated with being lesbians, all of a sudden, issue is that much more complicated. But at the same time, I guess, one of the things we were trying to point out in the paper is not not only the lesbian rights issue, but also people in the group protected rights movement, have to see that connection and take up the struggle for Lesbian Rights. Also, not just that, lesbian women have to take up the issue. I mean, I, it's hard to say it like that, because I see the struggle for reproductive rights in all these different spheres, which includes things like, you know, right to welfare and rights, you know, not to be sterilized, and all those things, which aren't really hooked up the right, you know, for hospitals to stay open. And all those kinds of things are, in my mind, part of the struggle for rights, but most of the reproductive rights movement is abortion rights against Unknown Speaker 28:02 those wondering probably has lessons, what do most what's the most common feel about weather? What would be a good strategy for, for, for drags people in whether it's really topping out or whatever? Unknown Speaker 28:31 Always remember about Unknown Speaker 28:34 learning about how Unknown Speaker 28:37 women who started with second wave feminism started to southern up all this stuff going on? How a lot of them were lesbians and how no one could say no. Maybe they retired, and the people around them, sometimes like new baby, and sometimes it was okay. And that's when all this should happen. And now, it was split. And it was it's always been this thing where lesbians are supposed to lesbians are Unknown Speaker 29:02 the people who fought for Unknown Speaker 29:05 lesbians are the people who are militant and fight for rights and who say, Look, this means what's the struggle this was going on? And then it's like, well, and that's really, I think it's really hard work. It's really hard work that I worry about that I worry about the taking on this issue, and a lot of people who take care of this issue of abortion rights, especially per se, so you know, I if you want to think about what I do, I don't have it. And I know I'm only gonna get shaved for it. And I know I can't tell anybody. And I'm not supposed to do it. This is bad press. It's bad press for me. So yeah. Oh, and I also have my own I would like to suggest you, maybe so I don't know if that's the I just don't know if it's good. I don't know if it helps. I don't know if it's productive. I think you might get some things in that direction. What do you Do you think that that's a good way of going about this, but you're not allowed to be I think the people that Unknown Speaker 30:19 I think that that's, that's very typical of women to get into the self love and someone else's struggle more, it's more important to find and do that. And it's like, so you know, it's selling yourself out again, I think I've been working for a few years now. And for us, we just committed abortion rights against sterilization. The last year when we started to take lesbian, lesbian, lesbian rights in a serious way, that's been a real struggle. It's really not Unknown Speaker 30:51 responsible to Unknown Speaker 30:55 enforce your rights to take up residence, a series of rights issues were then had to be Unknown Speaker 31:04 taken up. So there's always this problem Unknown Speaker 31:09 of being told, you're going to just Unknown Speaker 31:11 read it alienate. I hear this a lot. We're going to alienate Unknown Speaker 31:18 reporters in your issue. And, you know, what about it really made me by saying that people Unknown Speaker 31:30 are on the left, and I don't think that we're gonna convince anybody that, you know, a lesbian who supported abortion rights is probably negotiated with the thing is a bit reaching each other whenever we go to a demonstration, which is, especially sound specifically can rights and someone gets up in microphone, and speaks about gay rights. I think of all those left people keep hearing these connections. And it's really important that you consider saying gay and straight together, when he was, in Thailand demonstration, recently unify the peacemakers and started to do this. Unknown Speaker 32:12 I'm starting to hear it as a connecting thing. And the more we really talk to the straight people who we know are basically left but afraid, the more we come out to them in a very personal one to one way, that's the only way you can reach them as all the way they're going to start rebelling. And supporting us and say in other conversations you lay here and when I do a lot of speaking agents, with a teachers, and we just talk to regular lay people who are a little afraid of us, they'll get next. To me, that's the most important political work you can do is that getting people to hear you say, they see you as a person shipped around, you know, and you happen to say your last name, too, and they immediately make a connection to you. And so many times people said you're gonna change. Unknown Speaker 33:06 affect or restaurants, it's a real shock to them. And they very often don't say, they say all when they have to Unknown Speaker 33:21 very hard to, like, take some, you know, ugly to vaccinate your kids, or, you know, like whatever. Unknown Speaker 33:31 saying, you know, or you know, what, it's very hard to throw ideas, it's hard to save them to somebody. It's like, it's why, you know, people that are vegetarian, you know, or a few that eat meat. You know, you say, Well, you wouldn't eat your dog. Unknown Speaker 33:57 Like, cows, you know, so they don't like making a connection the same manner. You know, I mean, I think that's why it's good to always to tell people Yeah, well, I like Unknown Speaker 34:10 it, but I always, I always felt like I was really proud that lesbians were the moving thing and the women's movement. And yet, if I talk about an issue, that it's not specifically gay rights, I feel like I don't want to talk about being lesbian, because I really do feel like other women straight women. Let's just say I feel like I'm invalidating them. And string women are really afraid of being called lesbians. Like, I think I'm just beginning to realize that it's a real fear, and they don't want to talk about it. Like they talk about things that, well, it's your choice, and this is your choice, and this is my address, but that's bullshit. Because the truth is, is that they're really afraid of having the media pick up on them and say, Well, you have lesbians in your organization you must be listening to and, and they don't want to, I feel in a lot of ways, I hate to say s&m, but it's like, it's really hard to have a dialogue with straight women about their fear of being lesbians and being called lesbians. Like, I think it's like, if they want to sleep with men, that's cool. But don't just say to me, Oh, it's just who you sleep with. And it's because it's not for me, it's not and, and I feel like, in some ways, they're missing something that I see. And they don't really want to deal with the issue at hand. Unknown Speaker 35:36 It's better to make the connections ultimately, related to making the connections I make them either, you know, in a good way, or inflation's way. But the connections I've made all of these people for, you know, they're out to get. And it seems to me that all of the separate issues like lesbian issues, issues, and race issues and economic issues, and everything's really important to make the connections because the strength of the women's movement is going to be and everybody working together and support each other in a very full hearted and confident way. And that the only way that the theater, you know, people's fear and discomfort, and stereotypes or whatever are going to be broken down, is to confirm it again, and again. And again. And again, until somebody realizes that, gee, I've been struggling with this for a year, you know, I'm still straight, or I'm still gay, or, you know, I'm still who I am, or, you know, whatever, you know, that, that those definitions don't, in fact, you know, really change the, or whatever that hears that they think is going to be changed. So I think it's really important to be open with it, because as long as it's secret, and as long as there's some hesitancy like I can't be totally who I am in this political arena, or social arena or whatever, you know, there's always that hesitation. There's always something to hide. And I think it's really important not to have that, to be able to be fully, fully supportive of each other. Unknown Speaker 37:13 Sometimes you have no power of basic knowledge to be able to switch up straight old. School, they looked at my friends and said, you're a lesbian, could you imagine? And I almost started to cry. So I was so angry, my own voice and I sat there in silence. Said, you're supporting women. And you say, your families for all we are really loved by women. And can you see that connection with all of a sudden after most places, she said, mean, it's kind of like the Danish people wearing the jewelry. Disabled, it was just broken through. And then a bunch of them start to not pay back. And I think that, you know, it's real scary to deal with these fears if you do it. Unknown Speaker 38:25 But as wonderful as the Danish people were, it's not as simple as just because for women to just say, you know, I identify as lesbian, I'm lesbian, even if I don't think women just because I have all this oppression. Women can't do that, because they're subjected to all this economic, these connections that they have with men that they can't just come home and say that I'm pro lesbian rights. You can't just do as she said, It's great that you can we can Unknown Speaker 38:58 be afraid of being called resumes as the biggest pile of an apple person. And she realized that that minute, that was the scariest thing could happen. And one second, she realized that if she could get rid of that there's one question Unknown Speaker 39:16 that says people talking about that fear, because I can. I know, a woman now who's very out and strategic. But last few times, I've talked to her she was she has a child. She has a child, her lover. Now having a child live on it sets out to children. And very appointed, definitely hasn't been born. First, it was a girl, but she's very upset about the fact that she and I'm upset about it with the right is going to force all but the last remaining brave and those who can't do anything about it back into the closet. I mean, in some ways we do The men who are really immune, they are so publicly known as lesbian, gay man, it's too late now to do anything about it, but I can imagine that within the next two years, it'd be the whole, the whole situation that we're living in is going to be very different. And that was just one of my people. Whenever, Unknown Speaker 40:22 so we shouldn't assume that they won. I mean, that's really, you know, we should assume it does, because they're coming on strong now. We were coming on strong and 68. You know, so it's fine. I mean, so you shouldn't assume just because just because there's just because there's just because fellows talking to one another, doesn't mean that fundamental changes haven't occurred in society, and that aren't very powerful there. And that people, the fact that I can tip Fortune Magazine, it's an advertisement, sort of picture of advertising for advertising your TV, show the picture of the bride, Jung, Yeoman. And this is why do you think this is your market, if you think this is your ideal customer, and then you turn the page and says, they did get this, we chose the guy bringing up that watch out the laundry room going off to the food, or water walking around aimlessly. Actually, only seven there numbers 7% of households are in this typical. market has changed. So I think that the front, there has been fundamental change, which presently are recognized occurred in our society, and that some of the points were brought up in the conference this morning, about actually only 10 to 10% of the people did actually want one thing is true. And so I think to conceive, without just concede automatically is ridiculous, you know, even come on strong. There's a lot of us, there's 10 of us, or more, you know, and so I think that you have to have a feeling of when you are confident and strong. People respond to Unknown Speaker 42:36 that the fact is, though, that even though you know, sure, and I think that's one of the things I actually left last election, the whole thing about Well, only 10% of the people voted for 10% of people actually voted for Ronald Reagan, that does not negate at all the power that he has while he's in office. Unknown Speaker 42:57 And I think that we shouldn't have an attitude, like the Unknown Speaker 43:04 point I was trying to make is that, even though I mean, I don't have an attitude that we've already won, because I don't think they finally won, but I think they definitely have, you know, there's definitely a step ahead. Is that it took a few Look how long it took for women to get abortion. I mean, that took like, here. I mean, just like, how long does it take? People have been studying for, like 5060 years. So and that and women lose that. Right? Do you know how long it's gonna take them to get? Wrapped, again, Unknown Speaker 43:41 are kinds of steps. I mean, right? Unknown Speaker 43:42 That struggle for contraception were Unknown Speaker 43:47 over 100 years ago, was a long time but to see them try and pull back bonds. Comstock, Lazarus, Unknown Speaker 43:57 something like that. Maybe that can't send up soon? I mean, I don't, I don't like I don't overestimate or underestimate how productive they are. Seriously, of course. Unknown Speaker 44:24 I don't know. I mean, there's something else that you said, No, that only 10% of the people fit into them, but they're still just Videology fit into it or want or think that they might want. So I think it's more pervasive that really that team, even though that's only that's all Unknown Speaker 44:49 the truth, but I also felt that we shouldn't think of ourselves as PBX, you know, put ourselves in the ghetto that just because somebody said Oh, call my bluff you know I'm not really confident you know there's hope but I think it's just very scary situation and as I read patiently, I don't say to somebody I used to be I can go by David paper and he was like But now I'm gonna all the time so my concern is wanting to pass laws about homosexuality as well as about why think like, you know, possible race riots and the food riots are going to go on people have food and money or anything else and everything else. I'm worried about bloodshed the more times you see, you know, you could have got queer bashing but you know, it's everything's cool. These people come along with that and it happens more and more you can see more and more incentive from countries like okay, so it's a couple of cool kids our costume designer but it just it's building in this building and it's got to do and I don't know I just really think that we're gonna have to do so first. I think it's really good I think send Harvey Milk and I just think that those are examples of how things like that happen and now Unknown Speaker 46:41 more and more people will be wanting more people who are going to be in the new national wealth bank or welfare recipients distributing horses essential information or to get people to help people $3 million dollar campaign out in San Francisco radio Unknown Speaker 47:09 I think that we are currently making money and I feel that we have to Unknown Speaker 47:15 rather than share Unknown Speaker 47:21 the resources Unknown Speaker 47:24 together that access was brought in you know I think that okay intelligence Unknown Speaker 47:52 fundraising programs Unknown Speaker 47:54 you know I'm Unknown Speaker 47:59 good connection that was made in the paper and everything that is being talked about Unknown Speaker 48:12 the system as it is Unknown Speaker 48:14 the courts the big corporations and Unknown Speaker 48:20 that's where the big money Unknown Speaker 48:22 and you have to take back and so then you don't care how nice you know how well there's one guy who's not gonna deal breakers are the ones who are Unknown Speaker 48:34 being supported by what is putting down like the rights Unknown Speaker 48:37 not really certainly you know, that's what I'm not sure I mean, I don't think capitalism is inherently I mean, I really don't show snares you know Unknown Speaker 49:08 but is it because can you not know is it because of what you've heard about lesbians and gay men in the Soviet Union in China and in Cuba? Unknown Speaker 49:19 I mean it's because I'm a successful capitalist you it's nice that when Unknown Speaker 49:36 you haven't felt and you don't you feel it's two separate issues. And really you I really feel that you don't feel like you go up to your boss, it's weird, your clients or whatever, you can feel completely comfortable. Well, Unknown Speaker 49:56 you're very comfortable because of capitalism. has to do with people wanting to do a deal, or make money for no deal with anyone. I mean, that's so true. I purchase things. When I go to buy something, I could be, you know, have green paint on my face? If I could say yes and sign that'd be very pleased to be as polite, as you know. Yes, you know, anything you want to bring your girlfriend? I mean, you know, I was, well, what Unknown Speaker 50:35 about my friend is dangerous trust, he has to make up stories about the men and live a very regimented lifestyle. In order to be a banker. I mean, if she was a lesbian, she wouldn't be a banker, you know, it just, I mean, I, the people I know, in my parents, in my opinion, mass amount of information you get is exactly the opposite of people are struggling and having to live in secrecy and fear of losing their jobs. And that's Unknown Speaker 51:04 when I feel that that okay, that is, I don't deny that that's true. And many people you know, suffering has prejudices against lesbians. However, I don't feel that capitalism itself, as a system is has created a question in my mind, that terror led them to have, Unknown Speaker 51:45 it's important to remember that extinction that morning about capitalism and patriarchy, how they work together, how they contradict each other. I mean, I think that, in addition to, you know, sort of locating, you know, women's oppression and happiness, you have to understand that it's also capitalism. And so Unknown Speaker 52:08 she, I don't feel that it is inherent. Unknown Speaker 52:10 I don't, I don't know like how many, like corporate lesbians there are that you can have your own, like corporate listening parties, or whatever, but maybe so that maybe you can feel you and your friends cannot feel it, it's oppressive. But let's say you don't have money. And so the women you need, you know, if you're gonna go down to the village and be in like, a seedy little bar and not have very much money to do anything else. And I mean, that you're going to obviously you're not going to be feeling the oppression. But if you're really don't understand how it's connected for women who don't have money, who aren't like having a corporate job, that's not It's not like you're saying, like capitalism is the, you know, the super capitalist, but capitalism is also the P other people aren't rest of us. That's where it is, you can't You're not really the one to say that that's capitalism, that's separate from the effect it has on everyone else. Unknown Speaker 53:12 It's a very, very difficult problem. And I don't I feel that in a society that some people will always be success more successful than other people always be. I mean, I mean, I feel that it is true that some people will always be more successful than others. And that that is something that we have to deal with successful in terms of what a new messing you're successful, because you may have money or whatever. But I may not be successful. Well, so if you're, if you're talking about success in terms of money, successful in the sense of okay, I mean, certainly money is successful in my mind, because money talks. I mean, so that money does, you know, and if you read a lot of my grandmother was, and something that she taught, and certainly she did a good life. And you know, nobody ever she was she really did not know. So I think yeah, Unknown Speaker 54:25 but at least it shows there is definitely, I think that what we're saying how this is really off the issue is like me, Gen whatever, talking about this, so there really is a connection, the fact that he shows that this connection is Unknown Speaker 54:41 a danger and what is done in feminism, which is to connect our analysis to reality people's lives, which I think is really central. I think there's a danger in generalizing, or experience has been the experience always hits which I feel like it's like your experiences is successful. That just doesn't mean that that is Unknown Speaker 55:04 a danger. I know that I understand. Unknown Speaker 55:06 You know, but I just Unknown Speaker 55:10 in my own life, also Unknown Speaker 55:14 it is a constant problem you know, I mean, so that's the problem that I didn't want to identify with the press. I don't want to depress other press. Unknown Speaker 55:34 I don't want to identify with being oppressed by an oversight for revising. So it's always oppressing me, I'm being oppressed by them. And I can't not get oppressed. I can't become unimpressed. Because it's that person who's going to oppress me. So I wanted to justify it. To me, I'm not going to Well, Unknown Speaker 56:00 I have never had that ability. I wish I was certain that I was not going to be oppressed, and everything changed out there. But, I mean, I don't think it's possible. I agree with what she was, I don't think it's possible for somebody who is in a different class from people. And mostly mean. Well, I can give a good example, I went recently, recently, and spoke at a class at City College, me and another black woman, we're talking about racism and talking about sexism. And this guy is gay guy, he sits in the audience. And he says to me afterwards, what sort of sort of something like what you said, but only he said it in terms of what do you mean, you know, gay people very profitable for this system? Look, we own the fashion industry. And I always said, first of all, you know, we don't own the fashion industry. And second of all, the fashion industry is not really that serious anyway. So you see two or three people, you know, and you think that, but the thing is, is we don't have any power in society, we can sit up and think that we do it, we want to think that Unknown Speaker 57:08 I think that gay men have power in society. I think that gay men are a lot I virtue, okay, male lesbians. lesbians have to recognize that and gay men have money, not all of them, but a hell of a lot of them. I just saw an ad in the New York Times I keep thinking about it was an ad to buy advertisement for the advocate. And it had these this picture of the front cover the front cover of the advocate, but not a real front cover, and had the editor and the publisher, and it had all these vital statistics about them how the editor makes $50,000 a year and then he drinks $50 worth of wine a week and that it had it had all these things about about these men and how they were really successful net businesses should buy advertising in the advocate because because it was reaching a market of men who do have money. And I really think that there's a difference between between gay men and gay women, between gay men and lesbians in in terms of economics and money and and that capitalism affects lesbians differently than it affects gay men because lesbians are women and that so and that also to fight like if you want to get media time and you want people to realize that there are gay people out there in some ways gay men can be your allies because they do have the money to buy the time to and to get out there and to I mean, they really do have a lot more Unknown Speaker 58:39 power we can Unknown Speaker 58:45 all have different fields whether we want to be making a ton of money but the fact is, is we're stuck with while and the best way to get some money and power and have a system I feel like personally Okay, share with us use it use use your power to convince the people around you now to address the higher use your power and your money to give to give to me I'm not telling you to do that what I'm saying is that I think you can't it doesn't feel right to me that you can say that capitalism isn't related to the oppression if you're going to have money, you know the look and see that there's a lot of resumes and resume calling, you're not going to get your position and it's not it's a fluke that you're there and it's good that you're able to get into position power within that structure into now and I think if you do believe in capitalism that if you want people to get up and help people get up there but don't think that is part of the last thing that we did is we went to got there. You know, spent your life process who's out. You just wait and wait for your settles and survives successfully. Unknown Speaker 1:00:03 It's also important to remember the distinction between being a person being a victim. And I think that, yeah, because I think that by virtue says there has been by which I mean, that's what you is that is that you're still a person in society, which a person. And it's, it's really inspiring for me, I'm, I'm still a college student, and I'm about to enter the real world. And with a very supportive community, in my, on my campus, to hear somebody like when they were talking about, you know, the work that she's been doing, and she's always been a victim, she's obviously empowered and started going out and she's sharing and she's educating and teaching people. And that's not being not oppressed. That's not a good thing. And I think there's a real difference. Unknown Speaker 1:00:55 Mostly to bring it back to the issue of what you're saying that gay men have power, right, fine, gay men have power to you know, consenting to ice cream parlors. I mean, there aren't that many gay men, gay men in you know, in the House of Representatives who like or living happily with a brother with children. Right, look what happened every time he was a man. So that is the fact that it's, it's not the fact that it's a woman. It's not the fact that it's a woman who has, you know, its benefits to Unknown Speaker 1:01:30 each other. I'll have to apologize because I've been driving me nuts. That's why I'm talking, let's say usually Unknown Speaker 1:01:57 very. Anybody else have something else. Some other topic they want to Unknown Speaker 1:02:12 say something about an aspect of the paper is perhaps the second one tends to be overuse on discussing the relationship between oppression of lesbians and gay men and economic systems, and things, some of the anthropological cross cultural data on homosexuality might be very interesting. But when it's taken out of context, its meaning is greatly distorted. There is no culture in which that's known in which a person could freely move between sexual or gender identities throughout the course of a lifetime, if you want to be institutionalized arrangements, homosexual arrangements, by virtue of having had a particular vision or dream or having made whatever it is to socialize, or have whatever institutionalized experience, find by that helps to get into that category, that status, that hasn't occurred, you couldn't be leading a heterosexual life defined by that culture up to a point and a side that lesbianism would be the appropriate experience for the kind of requesting and that's a problem definition also, what what is essential across cultures? So I think, also there are, there's a beginning culture, for example, in which there's a sanction against, for men against heterosexual intercourse, something like 300 days of the year, where you look at that and say, Wow, well, nothing. I mean, that's tied in with all kinds of beliefs about the dangerous and polluting attributes of women, which doesn't really have to be examined. So I do think I feel personally that the gender system has to be analyzed. And then finally, the connections have been made between the agenda system and system. But I think there are extremely deep gender issues that the most rigorous analysis of an economic system. For me the question about my right, for example, as a lesbian, to bear and raise a child is one of those issues, that anything, whatever his sexual orientation, or gender identity is. Unknown Speaker 1:04:47 One of the things that, you know, when you talk about cross cultural society, I don't know whether we said it, but one of the problems sort of, and talking about lesbians and gay men throughout history Anyway, is that sort of we never had an identity really. And instead, you know, until this whole, the term of homosexuality came about in the night in in the 19th century, so we have, we have an identity but was so it was just like, it wasn't really, you know, people didn't really pick up on identity. And so if you studied sort of like after that, then you get to development, you know, subcultures, and people, various places in England and Paris in the 20s, and all those people. So, I mean, I don't think with us with lesbians, or with gay men and so much, it's probably agenda. What's its historic, like that identity, and we haven't had historical identity of our own. And we haven't been mean, just even recently, that lesbians and gay men have been saying openly, you know, marching down this avenue. I mean, that's going to happen in the last 10 Oh, yeah, that's yours. And when I think of it in terms of being black, that black people have been subjected to that much silence in history, I don't know where we were just like that invisible Republic. It's less. Unknown Speaker 1:06:11 But also, black people are more visible. Right. I mean, I mean, the thing about homosexuality is that you don't want to tell if you really don't have to, whereas if you're black, there's no way that you could just say that you're white and actually, they don't see you. So so in some ways, lesbians and gay men haven't had history because we I don't think that we've been it's easy to hide and we just haven't done anything about it and we haven't been saying yes, I'm a lesbian and I want to write down my life's over viewed and waited until recently it's easier Unknown Speaker 1:06:51 to deny that Unknown Speaker 1:06:52 it's an identity American if you have an identity has been whatever your profession or your interest whatever it is that you also have automatic children Unknown Speaker 1:07:09 and also, homosexuals and lesbians are not don't benefit from the nurturance of the family really in the sense that okay, work hard call it you know, they're going to take off my cloth does material generation generation Unknown Speaker 1:07:44 the destruction that you're talking about like preserving the culture as the black family has there? You can think about it in those kinds of terms Unknown Speaker 1:08:07 I've just talked about nurturing children and combating heterosexism and so I think that a family I mean, I'm just sort of denying the fact that there can be some kind of import for a family for the bookies is just gonna be just now Unknown Speaker 1:08:31 we can supply that Unknown Speaker 1:08:33 as, as more and more well, there are there are many lesbians who have children, but as more and more lesbians who are personalized into men decide to have children, like have families and that families do develop, you know, even though they're paying you know, there's no husband and you know, maybe no father around you know, that may start to change because people's you know, attitudes will start to change like hey, this is my mother's my family, you know, it's my friends it's you know, and that sort of thing. That's the sort of long term thing that you know, isn't going to happen you're in a place to see how do you do kids? Last year Unknown Speaker 1:09:32 know, she she knows. Right, but she hasn't eaten High School. Oh, elementary. So. And also the funny thing about I remember a story that you told us about how Leonor has kid kid little girls come up to her and say, I think that I'm a lesbian. Unknown Speaker 1:09:55 Something wonderful. The gay teachers meeting is once a year. Kids come teenagers come into Go back Unknown Speaker 1:10:02 to that one meeting last year Unknown Speaker 1:10:08 and she took the whole meeting Unknown Speaker 1:10:11 so unbelievable. Unknown Speaker 1:10:13 She she's now quoted as saying maybe less thought it was great because first the teenagers never saying no, we feel so isolated. Never bring up the issue. No, I mean a lot of teachers and really working with dealing with if not specifically coming out and really working on educated sexism so there's a lot anyway, so you know, someone said Well, what did we do before they get in high school? And how do we educate the academy? nudging me to talk and for the rest of me she had this meeting and she said first of all, she said when you're 11 years old, no one thinks you can go to school you come home and said you know, we can be informed we understand these things. And one teacher looked at her and she said, Well what what is the sexuality to Unknown Speaker 1:11:13 let my boys go I told my girlfriend Unknown Speaker 1:11:17 and I say well how do I cancel these kids but you have sex everywhere the media all heterosexual said quit you know some of its gates but it's all pointing graphic like to be 11 again, she said I'd like to be origin gate was wonderful. I wish she was just wonderful and a lot of teachers that really educated and said No, I never knew that kids in your age could deal with these issues and everyone stops that seventh graders and they say can bear it what are you most director is a cause of yourself right she's really Unknown Speaker 1:12:10 sometimes I get any really jealous she doesn't say out there she say I soundboard is out It must be really hard not to be out of the job. But a lot of teachers and a teachers and young people say I'm in a middle class public school, I couldn't get teachers or the public school system and doing doing things in the public school system. In New York, there's a chart that says you can fire your teachers protected, Unknown Speaker 1:12:43 protected. So there's a lot Unknown Speaker 1:12:45 of people a lot of people don't notice macarons made a statement saying Unknown Speaker 1:12:53 so also raising children is such an important part of reproductive freedom. Raising children is an important part of reproductive freedom. I mean, I would like to have a child but I'm really young now I'm 18 so I have time but it's like to have a child but I really think about raising a child in this society what it would be like and and having to form support with with you know other gay people and and wondering if I'm not giving my child enough choice and and to have gay teachers is great because then you know a child will think that it's just a natural it's another aspect of life and then it's it's natural articaine mine I had to get a teacher ladies if anybody Unknown Speaker 1:14:06 wants to first of all if anybody like we know reads the paper over and wants to write to us and tell tell us any their comments. Please do we use and no we're using the second half of something in writing some longer on just on the problem a heterosexual male once that I just walked in. Okay, now we have 18 workshops, one golden network. I want to make one comment. I find very distressing the main topic stress Unknown Speaker 1:14:54 free You know that what's happening out there? The whole thing is reproductive rights and era and I just think that that's a very important you know, observation maybe I shouldn't judge more than that, but I'm just having you know, a little bit of my around here happy Password Safe anyway Unknown Speaker 1:15:28 broadening the definition of reproductive rights, it's just are we going to introduce a simple army of reproductive age? I think it's making the connections between women as women are the ones who Unknown Speaker 1:15:46 I want to say yes men as opposed to women as a class but the shift shifting I'm not judging you I happen to have a head after I can take a couple of months Unknown Speaker 1:16:03 as a class, he is like theory that you can discuss but this is an issues Unknown Speaker 1:16:10 issue. Probably what you're talking about, you're talking about Yeah, it was a sad feeling. I mean, I feel that way too. Actually. I went to Reproductive Rights Network Conference last week or two weeks ago, and I felt that way to work well, I just felt I really felt like that was totally out of Unknown Speaker 1:16:37 whack here writing an article Unknown Speaker 1:16:41 I mean, it's just a lesson isn't was not pleasant. As theory boys Unknown Speaker 1:16:50 can you give us your athletes real six Unknown Speaker 1:17:01 last year that LA so do i