Unknown Speaker  00:01
introduce themselves. And just briefly a Senate yourself saying something you would like to get out of the workshop, an issue that particularly came up you here this morning are alleging to sign up for the workshop, first of all, and then I would like to give you, I'm treating this very much as a sort of work in progress and chance to get feedback and maybe to integrate some of the stuff we've heard this morning to get your ideas. So I see it as instrumental for the development of my own theory as well as hopefully, yours says, I really do believe that theory develops collectively out of our joint experience. So that I thought I would present to you some of the ideas that I'm working on right now that very much touch on both the morning, especially some of the morning presentations, and then ask for your feedback, comments, ideas, whatever evolves from that point on and I will try to keep my comments reasonably brief because I feel like there's been so much words language power or whatever you want to call it this morning, that other people may or may want to speak. So if we can just sort of go around so we have a nice little quiz here. This modification

Unknown Speaker  01:27
is related to anything a personal psychological.

Unknown Speaker  01:37
And Marianne purse I teach at Dartmouth College on in romance languages, Comparative Literature and Women's Studies. And I'm just beginning we're kind of book on mother daughter relationship with various literary texts. Calling from ancient Greek texts are very long.

Unknown Speaker  01:53
My name is Linden Locklear, I work with disturbed children and also with the mother since the topic

Unknown Speaker  02:03
I'm interested in many reasons as a daughter as a mother, a poodle and I work as a therapist and we're studying whether go to therapy

Unknown Speaker  02:18
Christine Carvey Ariel from Hudson County New Jersey homemaker mother on board reactive now chimney CRM facilitated by

Unknown Speaker  02:40
yourself and I'm here to argue

Unknown Speaker  02:43
with Studies major and I wanted to come to this specialist that was my mother and understand what it is I do

Unknown Speaker  03:02
daughter, two daughters and my stepdaughter Mary at GW is great, I'm sure it was investment banker and also you're just as see Weisskopf. I'm a clinical psychologist in the Women's Studies program and

Unknown Speaker  03:33
I've done research on the

Unknown Speaker  03:34
terminal as a wave of parents and I am a graduate student at Columbia and I come to the women's Congress in general because there is nothing that I

Unknown Speaker  04:09
completely conditional last Friday that kind of return skill we really have no encouragement you get the whole thing and the reason why I'm here sell on my first to third grade I didn't I didn't signal. You This therapy has long been in the news and sociology and professional life best. Very melancholic.

Unknown Speaker  05:48
And I'm interested in your

Unknown Speaker  05:55
house I'm Elizabeth stone. I'm a journalist, I've just written an article on mothers and daughters and I teach this course.

Unknown Speaker  06:10
I'm sending my assistant director Westside High School to smoker to high school. I've taught sexuality courses to women alone, and to boys and girls. And I'm interested in a personal reason as a mother.

Unknown Speaker  06:26
Con, I work for the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, but I'm really here because for personal reasons, as a mother and daughter, and grandma.

Unknown Speaker  06:43
I'm Joe Delaplane. I work with a feminist radio network in Washington, DC, and I've done crisis counseling, to a rape crisis center for three years. I'm also in analysis. And this is the first time I've admitted that in a feminist to feminist I've been in for a year and a half. And I, you asked us if we had any responses to the stuff that people were speaking about earlier. And I'm not sure that I understood all of what you were saying, Nancy, but I have real questions about what you were saying about gender identity not being problematic for girls. And I think that it's been the big issue for me. And the question of don't know, I don't know how to phrase it, but what, how? How gender identity gets passed from mother to daughter depends very much on the mother, the mother, father relationship. And the woman who had questions, the question about the role of the father, I think that has to be brought in.

Unknown Speaker  08:19
For me, in a strong way, I'm not sure that's very clear. But I'm Joanne Blauer. I'm the assistant to the president here at Barnard. And I was just interested in the topic. I'm

Unknown Speaker  08:35
finding benefit. Bonnie Benenson and I'm a student in women's studies, I guess, at the New School, and doing a lot of work right now on gender identity and psychology.

Unknown Speaker  08:55
Drugs work and professionally, psychiatric social worker, and worked primarily with women and a great deal. In the past two years, we've been consulting to one of the programs in Connecticut, to set up a show and have been most recently working with the mothers and daughters. Because it does the vine gets transmitted across generations. And I'm also interested somebody talked about the ethnic, different Yeah. And I see that a lot in my professional work and also personally in women's identity with themselves in their daughters and how that gets translated into violence or non violence. A mother of a daughter and the daughter and experienced a lot of very powerful and strong feelings, my daughters and You know, and really got to have some strong identity, things to what you were talking about this morning in terms of gender identity, that I just knew I could have girl and idea. And it was terrific. That's not very interesting, personally.

Unknown Speaker  10:24
Oh, oh, and then what? So you're interested in the workshop. I'm Mikey psychology. And I came over here to become a member

Unknown Speaker  10:46
I'm Jamie. Work at the Women's Center. We're also interested in

Unknown Speaker  10:55
info photo from the cows are passed on to us. Thank you. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  11:08
I wonder if those of us who were working professionally, other issues or issues could sort of make ourselves available to each other maybe afterwards? cross reference and perhaps exchange addresses? And it's a good idea? Sure. Why

Unknown Speaker  11:26
don't you just just for those of us who have to pick up kids in the daycare properly? Maybe at the reception?

Unknown Speaker  11:40
Yeah, why don't we just pass a sheet around? What if we'd have the sheath around, what I can do is have my secretary type it up and send it out to everybody. I'm actually one of those academic institutions where they have secretaries and Xerox that know how many still get this is, what I wanted to do is tell you a little bit about my own intellectual biography, and how I ended up working on Madison goddess and where I've taken it recently, which is in a much different way than I anticipated when I first started getting in it. And I think, in fact, they're sort of gone in a dialectical process, where I'm, in a sense, returning to my early academic group, but in a totally transformed way. So I want to give you a sense of that process and where I think some of the implications of feminist theory especially arising out of the analysis of Mother Daughter leads us. Now, I also want to ask Dr. Ego, for clarity for me, and how do you actually get into some of these issues? How many people here have read the article I wrote for mothers and daughters, so I can see how, okay, thank you. Okay, feminist studies, the special issue on motherhood and I think this is really great example of evaluation of self. I can never remember what issue within why number one or number two, I actually have them. Thank you. 1997. Yeah, 297 Yet, important. Number two, I need it during presentation. Okay, that's just to give me an idea. All right. Now, a long time ago, when I was in graduate school I started off actually wasn't so long ago. But I started off in dealing with object the question of objectivity. I trained as a political theorist. I did my undergraduate work as a political theorist, I went to a political science department, Yale for graduate school. And I was very interested in issues of philosophy and symbology. And so the stuff that the women were facing this morning that the French women have recently got into about the relationship between knowledge and power, I was very much interested in. And I was very interested in the relationship between the subject and the object, and questions of how we can ever be sure that we know what we think we know, which, of course, is a great classic problem in epistemology, and in modern philosophy, starting with Descartes. And at this time, it was very, very abstract. And as I went into analytic therapy myself, I realized one issue reason those interested in this philosophic issue was because my family was so crazy that I could never tell who was thinking what when, and I was trying to resolve some of these, these issues through my usual defensive method that is very intellectual and very abstract. And so I got more interested in psychology, both through my work which focused on the critical theory school, the Frankfurt School Horkheimer I know Mr. Kusa, and, of course, they very much attempt to appropriate, a fairly orthodox form of psychoanalysis into their work. And so I felt if I was going to understand them, I would have to understand Freud. At the same time, this was 1969 1970, I was also becoming a feminist. And there's nothing like going to an all male environment like, you know, university to turn you into a feminist. And, and

Unknown Speaker  15:33
so that I was very, I joined several consciousness raising groups. And we decided that what we needed was a place at the Women's Center where women could come, who didn't see themselves as having long term deep psychological problems, but we're in the stage of transition they're getting before their husbands were beating the mops and use space for their kids, or women who were very disturbed who didn't see any way into the mental health establishment, and that we could set up liaisons and make sure that they got a good sympathetic therapist, as opposed to someone would do violence on that thing. And so through that, I got interested in counseling, and I worked in this women's center for about three years under the supervision of a psychiatric social worker. Now, through that experience, I decided that the whole notion of counseling, the whole notion of a sort of rationally oriented therapy simply wasn't adequate to explain the kind of phenomena that I was encountering, both in my consciousness raising group where we would encounter just suddenly everyone in the room would get very tense, very anxious, and not be able to talk to each other, or we'd have these terrible arguments. So it didn't seem to be arguments about what we thought we were arguing about. And it became clear that there were very deep feelings being stirred up that we had no way to analyze. And we really didn't understand what was going on. And not surprisingly, the feelings come up when we talked about either sexuality, or our mothers. So

Unknown Speaker  17:08
another a number

Unknown Speaker  17:11
of these convergences, I decided that I wanted to get more training in psychoanalysis. And I worked for three years, and it's supervision of psychiatrists learning more about psychoanalytic psychotherapy. And I had a job for three years in which I had had time appointment, working with students who as a therapist who have time teaching in political science, which was totally schizophrenic life, which I was unable to tolerate after three years. And I'm now working full time as a political theorist. And I have a small private practice, where I see just a few patients. But it's more easy to keep one sanity doing this. But most of the patients that I've seen are women, most of them are extremely disturbed. I know that a number of patients of therapists have noticed that patients seem to be getting more disturbed, or at least they notice more disturbance, a deeper level of disturbance among their patients in a dispute in psychology in psychoanalysis now, but the narcissistic personality, are people sick or now? Or do they have different kinds of sickness? And in my experience, I have I, for the very first time ever started seeing a real neurotic, as opposed to a borderline psychotic and just seeing her I realized how different it is doing therapy with someone who's, you know, I know that psychiatrists have written the world, the word neurotic had a psychological literature that I can't change that fast. It's very, very different dealing with neurotic and dealing with people who basically have no sense, of course, so. So that most of what I will talk about today, and my clinical experience, deals with people who basically have no core identity. Almost all the people I've seen are what is called borderline psychotics. This doesn't mean that there have to run cutting a whole syndrome in and of itself. And the problems very much focused on a lack of any self that hangs around any stable core self that you can rely on to be there. As one of my patients describes herself she's 1000s of fragments, and she doesn't know when she gets up in the morning it's just be there. For those of us who have some experience of of course stuff that is hard to experience how poli terrifying such such a state is but that most of the patients I've seen have been basically borderline. Couple people who are really psychotic, basically and I'm so that the material I'll talk about comes from that experience. Now also, I've been primarily influenced by the object relations cycle in psychoanalysis, who I feel offer a much more adequate grasp of pre edit experience, and I'll talk about that a little bit more. And those include, especially when it caught Mahler and Gooden trip, many of these people are English and have not except for Mahler, not much of an impact on American psychoanalysis was tends to be very intellectualized very abstract and very cognitively oriented to see where he goes psychology hands Harken, and people like that. Just wondering, Melanie context in terms of voters and voters. Interesting. Yeah. And I think these people are really central for any feminist incorporation. Psychoanalysis, kind of Nancy uses them. And for those of you who are seeking to integrate feminists in psychoanalysis, I really encourage you on there's a really good book by Fuad Tripp called physical psychoanalytic therapy is therapy, psychoanalysis itself, like good, you're so really good introductory books about this kind of object relations theory. But I think it offers a lot more possibilities than orthodox analysis, or what most American analysts do, which is very much ego psychology, which I find, like I find the Con and lead French to be hopelessly abstracted, rationalistic and not adequate to grasp the incredible complications and intensity of primary process. Those of you were having some trouble understanding the language this morning. I don't personally think it's just because you're not used to that discourse. I think there's something about that whole structuralist Lacanian approach that that makes it very difficult to grasp. And I like the object relations people because a lot of them are child analysts. And to be a good child analyst, you have to be incredibly complete. And so, you know, executive, I recommend them highly.

Unknown Speaker  22:08
Now, I want to Yeah, I was wondering what I have difficulty with some witnesses, it was not, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker  22:19
Is there any explanation by laconic all of the creative as well,

Unknown Speaker  22:26
that's what I felt was missing

Unknown Speaker  22:28
at this point is skipped over. The problem I have with the con is that the creams like unconscious processes into symbol into process into language, and the unconscious is not a linguistic structure. I mean, to my way of thinking, it's not a linguistic structure. And so no, I don't think makan has really any adequate notion of the pre ethical theory. And I don't think that Lacan understands psycho psychoanalysis in the way I understand. I mean, his basically, from what I understand that his current practice is he sees patients once a week for 10 minutes. And that he doesn't really focus on the transference and countertransference relations, which, for me, is the whole work therapy, basically, and I can't understand human interactions, at least I cannot understand human interactions through his his analysis. But you know, I mean, I'm just very prejudiced against it after trying desperately to understand it. So I'm maybe not the best person to speak. For the con, I don't find it very helpful. And I think it's noticeable the feminist who most has tried to use the con that is doing it, Mitchell has never grappled with the periodical period, keeps promising to really talk about the family and talk about the mother women psychology, but all she does is prepare us for lacuna, in Freud's own theory, and does not give us a grand for understanding women. And I think that's partly a function of her appropriation for time. And I fear the same thing about other this whole trends in French feminism and in that regard, but then, you know, that's my, my purse, as you'll see, I am extremely concrete in my appropriation of psychology. Right, right. I mean, if you work if you work at all, as a therapist, as I'm sure those of you who do know, it's an incredibly concrete process, and the more concrete you are with the patient, the better it is for the patient. The more abstract explanatory and more you talk, the less happens, at least in my own experience with my patients and my own experience as a patient. So that goes into my preference for object theory. Now, I just want to say one other thing which connects with some of the more abstract philosophic stuff which was disgusting. I have recently become convinced on a whole different level that feminism is a totally revolutionary theory and practice. And what I mean by this is that feminism compels us to go to the most primitive roots of human experience. And those routes have been read out of every camp, if you will, history, and all reflections on history, both in philosophy, theory, and in all, Marxism. All theories which claim to give an adequate account, including science, of human experience hasn't read at the very period in time in which we become human beings, in which we establish the core identities as human beings. And I think that women have a very special interest in reclaiming this pre medical care. And I'm going to talk about that some in terms of relationship between mothers and daughters. And in this regard, it strikes me in Freud's own work, as you know, very late, he realized that women's development was not the same since that was a mistake to use any kind of concept like the Electra complex, that he said that he very late uncovered the Minoan civilization underlying the region ruins. And that that has to do with women's relationship with their mothers. And interesting, he made a very interesting remark, which was that he felt that as long as women were in analysis with men, that they would not get to this pre edible period, because women could use the male therapist as a defense basically, against their early experiences with their mother. This is enough, I think it's in the ethics on females, that one on female sexuality, the knights and the last the very last one, he makes it sort of an off common,

Unknown Speaker  27:01
isn't it? It's a very, you know, which is very interesting, because Jane Ellen Harrison, you know. So that was sort of discovered the whole exploring goddess mythology. That was a poor choice.

Unknown Speaker  27:25
Yes, she if she picked up the same, the same, I think it's right. Right. She didn't have to let it out. Yeah. And that's it. Now, what's the process that goes on fries, the

Unknown Speaker  27:37
male therapist is looking to avoiding,

Unknown Speaker  27:39
because I have I'll make this more clear my sort of discussion of, of humor, but basically, the way I feel that we use male therapists as a defense is that analysis allows it to a certain extent, especially certain forms of Orthodox analysis, you can stay on the level of rat of reasons, you know, the whole emphasis on the ego stroking the ego, you know, the whole thing about, you know, where they're within let ego be, and so on. That that's with certain kinds of analysts, you can get a lot of reinforcement for being insightful, rational, and that you never have to get at some of these more primitive feelings. And that for women, a lot of women sourcing intellectual women, I've noticed that had these kind of relationships with their fathers, with their fathers, maybe protect them against the mothers in trade off for repression of certain elements of their own piano identity. And they very much identify with the Father as the way out of all this messy female stuff. And that that can be recapitulated in, in the therapy relationship, since many male analysts of course, are not interested in, you know, reestablishing any kind of bond, reclaiming female identity, reclaiming the bond with the mother. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  29:03
this is a real problem. It's usually not so much the women are using us males, as that most male honest, as really affordable. And so for him, once you go, that was the end of it, and for most male analysts, because for the male, the medical transition is to transition into into culture and language. Right. And that is self male. Right? It has been so as our culture has always understood it. That's really the problem. And now I have to take the steps. You can get into pre medical experiences to live up to this possible.

Unknown Speaker  29:44
I'm not sure I agree. Well, but that's that's another question. Right. I think that's more than what the problem yeah. Well, I didn't mean to blame it. It's not like the woman is doing a blaming. I think you're partly right in that the surplus analytic cheering mitigates getting at the critical period. And I think it's true that analysts misinterpret a lot of times what's going on? They misinterpret things on an ethical level when they're really happening on a pre ethical level. And

Unknown Speaker  30:14
Freudian train them particularly. That's right, because for him the critical level

Unknown Speaker  30:21
that's right. Well, I want did you want to say yes or no, I think my question. Okay. Well, I wanted to go on to say something about how on earth just the general political, philosophical level house operates. And you could see it in Freud. And in the classic account, in civilization discontents, where it's very interesting, the opening chapter is Troy talks about how this I think the novelist or poet makes some references oceanic feeling. And Freud has never been able to understand oceanic feeling which of course, looking at it's it's basically an experience of symbiosis. And very early infant experiences is well, I can't understand it, I can't make sense of this. So I'm not going to talk about it anymore. And then he goes into an analysis of civilization, in which the first act is, of course, the imposition of the incest taboo, which, of course, so that the Oedipal the resolution, or the Oedipal crisis is, is the act of culture. Now, of course, what is completely left out is the entire pre Freud's as you can understand, and also then that culture is based basically a process between men, because women are out of it, you know, they've already been repressed within the individual psyche, because we've repressed the entire pre Oedipal period in which the women appear as the powerful, loved and hated here, mother. And we now have a struggle among men, initially, of course, for control of the distribution of women, because the first the incest taboo, as you recall, is, is imposed at the end after the initial killing of the primal father who's playing all the women. So that already when we entered culture, we entered the world of men. And the whole subsequent history of culture is struggles among men, whether these are class struggles, philosophic disputes, whatever. And that employee's own account because of leaving out the ethical, the pre Oedipal period, women are read out of history. And they're read out of Orthodox psychoanalytic theory. And this is this is paralleled in both political theory and philosophy because you just want to say one word. In Descartes, for instance, we get an account of thinking, which interestingly enough, starts with Descartes has a dream. And it disturbs him that he can't tell the difference between his dream and what goes on in everyday life. So the experience with not being able to separate out between the dream state and the conscious state is what sends him into his great psychological crisis, which he tries to resolve through the Cartesian meditations. And he has just these great, great, great paragraphs which I have 321, which he basically exemplifies the narcissistic approach to life. And he says, for example, the very fact that I thought of dad and the truth of other things, it followed very evidently is very certain that I existed while on the other hand, if I had only ceased to think, although all the rest of what I ever imagined had been true, I would have no reason to believe that I existed. I therefore concluded that I was the substance of which the whole essence were nature consists in thinking, and which in order to assist me to know place, and depends on no material thing. So that this eye, that is to say, the mind by which I am what I am, is entirely distinct from the body, even that is easier to know than the body. And more over that, even if the body were not, it would not cease to be all that it is. So that what we have here is, first of all, the complete denial of the body and the dependency of the body, on

Unknown Speaker  34:19
the mind on the body. And the complete repression of the body and the body is necessary to repress the body because it gets you into all these confusions. It gets you into all these philosophical dilemmas, and subsequent knowledge can only be grounded in the mind. Now the first body of course, that we all separate from just the bodies and the purse, feelings that confuse us, and so on are all the feelings that we have about that process of separation from the mother's body, so that in de cartes solution to his inability to emerge out of this dream are clearly distinguished. To dream, from reality is to repress the body to repress, basically, that whole pre ethical stage in which the mind is not develop, and to end up making this astounding claim that even if his body died, the mind will not cease to be what it is that they're completely different things now also psychoanalytically speaking, this is a totally narcissistic posture, because the entire world comes to depend on his thoughts about it, he posits the world and in as much as he posits the world, he could both know it and control it. And for Descartes controls intimately involved with knowledge. So that in philosophy, then I think you could you could analyze lots of other philosophers, just Descartes, that things like this, in parallel terms of political theory, that early infantile experiences are also completely repressed. And you can see this, for example, in liberal political theory, where, as you know, from from Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, the whole modern theory starts off from inquiring into the state of nature, what it was, what was it like, before human beings were in society. Now it turns out that human beings in before they were in society, were totally solitary. They were antisocial or a social, they didn't need anybody else they forged around in the woods for what they needed. And, of course, this is only, you know, one wonders how these people ever got born, not the kind of taken care of when they were infants, and could not forage for food. And that what you notice is a complete reading out of the origins of human beings and human society. But the whole long period of time in which we work, didn't have other people to beat our knees, we would die. And so that you can see in Liberal theory, to this whole repression of the early period in which we're dependent, in which there's no way we can conceptualize ourselves as a social or anti social, because we have to depend on other human beings to do this, but you can't develop a bourgeois individualism, if you take into account, the early infant period would lead you to a very different theory of human nature and society. So that so that what I'm just saying, in general, is that, that women have been read history out of philosophy, and that it's not accidental, because that reading am also has its root psychologically speaking, in the attempt to grasp is not the power of the mother, who, as we know, through human civilization has been the primary caretaker. And that so that really, for this right on a descriptive level, that is culture comes to me that which is not in the realm of

Unknown Speaker  38:02
you know, yes, we're gonna run out of history. But there's another thing to Christian philosophy in particular, which is built into this, this dichotomy set up is is the mother power, power the mother, in which voice has discontents defines it as sexuality, family, and perpetual opposition against that culture. That's the woman is inherently a destructive force, within society against culture, therefore, it is back to control is is the function of male culture to control this disruptive female element? Right. Right. So that's,

Unknown Speaker  38:46
that's true. And you see that I was gonna say, you also see that in terms of political theory, in the the absolute distinction between the public and the private, you see that, for example, in Aristotle, that the private realm is around the necessity around the meeting everyday needs. And anyone who is primarily in that realm cannot be a citizen. And that you have to free yourself of the realm of necessity to be able to engage in politics. And of course, all of Western political theory is built on distinguishing between the public and the private and is very smooth anthropologists like Michel Salgado and so on talked about that. That distinction between public and private is a central division within our own political thought. And it certainly has consequences for women, that women have been come to seen as it's really unnatural. in the most literal sense for women to have authority. It just goes against all of us dualisms and dichotomies that culture is built upon. And I think this is one of the sources of the most deep resistance to allowing, allowing women into roles of authority and it won't disappear with Title Nine In affirmative action, as we will see. Okay. So that's a sort of general setting and why I assert that feminism really is the most profound and revolutionary theory. If we begin to look at things from what a fundamental standpoint when it forces us to investigate a terrain that has been read out of history, culture. And in this way, this intersects with the idea of the dark terrain, the unspeakable, but I don't think that it's the least bit unspeakable that it's a social phenomena that that terrain, and we need to investigate how it is. And I do believe it's when we start investigating it. Many of these dilemmas and dichotomies that have just been posited, as the result of human history will be seen to have their roots in social relationships. The subject object split the public private split and so on, can be analyzed in terms concretely of their location, in real social relationships, not be ontological, given that that is what we're stuck with as human beings and that we become certain sort of human beings through social experience and then what happens is is positive abstractly as the human condition and I think this is the primary trend is it certainly within philosophy, even De Beauvoir, as a result is not able to go beyond kind of dilemma. Okay, now, I wanted to talk a little bit more about my work on mothers and daughters in psychological psychological dynamics between mothers and daughters, and what mothers and daughters showed working on mothers and daughters shows me is that differentiation is why so disagree with some stuff, Nancy would say, differentiation is a central issue for women. And that differentiation, the problem of differentiation and as I said, also, larger, philosophic and political context as well. And to start talking about my, my psychological work, and let us tell you about a dream. I guess this is appropriate and analytic manner that one of my patients has, because I think that it's a really archetypical dream. And every time I tell it, people point out new things. I didn't know this in the street. It's it's an art typical dream. In terms of women's psychology, now, this patient is extremely disturbed patient, she is really basically psychotic. Although sometimes she sort of manages to be enough integrated to work for brief periods of time. She's, she's never been hospitalized. But she's basically a walking psychotic. psychotic. Okay.

Unknown Speaker  43:19
Okay, what does it look like if you saw it? Very good question. What it would look like if you saw is someone who came into the room who could not sit still, who cannot follow with thought through probably couldn't even continue with sentence who has such a high anxiety level that she would curl up like this stare up at the wall, her body posture was incredibly tense and anxious, when you you start feeling disoriented when you're in her presence. And this is one of the difficulties of working with psychotic people's because it's very disorganized. You know, the all these sort of languages who've worked out to talk to each other don't work. You ask her a question. And you know, she responds in some way that the was her connection is not the character. She basically cannot distinguish between what's going on in her internal life and what's going on around her. So that she may be sitting in her chair and all of a sudden, she literally talks with the voice of a three year old. And she has the experience of shrinking in her chair and describing everything else in the room in the incredibly large. Herd being incredibly small, the voice change, the posture changes, her expression changes. And unlike other patients who might what we call regress to that stay, she can't get out. She can't come back. She will get stuck in one of those sort of fun integrated elements of her experience and not be able to come back. She she would have for instance, fantasies that black spiders we're crawling around her room and they're coming to eat her. And that she couldn't escape. And she would literally see the flat spiders crawling around her room, and he's been borderline psychotic. Now. A borderline psychotic can basically distinguish between internal and external. They know that they're fragmented, or they know that they're getting confused between internal and external. And usually you can fairly quickly bring them back. If they they regress, if they go back to an earlier period after working with them a while you say, you know, gee, it sounds like you're getting stuck. And I know what that means. A psychotic will lose consciousness of the differentiation between the SNES I suppose that sort of absolute but none of this stuff is absolutely Oh spectrum. But I guess if you had to say one thing about a psychotic that they really cannot distinguish between what's happening inside and what's happening in the external world. And a borderline psychotic may not have very well integrated ego or not have much of an ego, you know, self at all. But they can usually stay in present time, or distinguish between when they're going back or away. And when they're here, and a psychotic you might do. Some people are just intermittently psychotic, like this will intermittently psychotic, she would, you know, basically be able to distinguish between inside and out, but and then just have a period where everything would fall pieces. So she was a sort of, in between. And that's often, you know, most people don't really fit into any category, unfortunately, and fortunately for them, but anyway, so that that gives us sort of what I'm talking about. This one was from their parents were immigrants who come in, they retain strong ties of loyalty and duty. She has one for under seven years older than she became violent as a child, after he attempted to set fire to a wooden apartment stair who was sent to a special school for emotionally disturbed children when, when the patient was early school age, she was not informed of the reasons in the disappearance of her brother, although her family visit him once a week and feared that she too would be sent away for parents used to try to go bowling with this brother because her parents wanted them to be an ordinary American family. And so their solution for this was to go bowling once a week, take a brother out of the institution, and go bowling with the reasserted that despite everything they're basically a normal American family that the father was both extremely controlling and very controlled and irrational, he would actually sort to the garbage to be sure that nothing was thrown out because he didn't want for an app.

Unknown Speaker  48:02
He was flying the uncontrollable and unpredictable rages and would punish his children with severe strapping. This behavior alternates with a remote perfectionistic demanding mother, her mother was alcoholic for most of her childhood. This is really a great story. Her behavior the mother's behavior vary between a drunk and rejection on her children and occasional genuine regard for their needs and displays of affection and support. Once her mother chased me down the hallway was denied, because she had the daughter and made her mad. When the woman was 11, she's great by her grandfather, her mother's father, given the night the night on the way for his wife. The circumstances strongly implied that the patient's mother was complicit in the array. Many years later, she told her daughter, the mother told her about it that she too had been raped, but say, Man, this isn't really an incredible case of sort of the carrying on of psychosis, or disturbance from one generation to the next. She was in her early 20s When she came to therapy, and the presenting symptoms were paranoia, extreme anxiety and an inability to concentrate so severe that she had to drop out of college. She lacked many reality testing skills and ability to organize the experience characteristics of a fairly well developed ego and I initially diagnosed her as a borderline personality depending especially under stress to psychosis. So that's a little background for history. I must say that this is not an unusual case history in my practice. I don't know what I always I get so paranoid myself. I wonder if there's something about me that brings this kind of patient but this is not a typical in levels of disturbance for the people that I see. That may be true other view, once you start getting into family history, you discover to incredible levels of biology she got, first of all

Unknown Speaker  50:16
right now, she did have an incredibly strong drive to survive. And it was it was, you know, it really was remarkable to me that her basic where she developed to survive was to completely withdraw from the family and read and develop intellectually. And that's what saved her she was very bright. And that's what she really clung on to and that's significant. As you'll see in the dream. The dream is as follows. The patient is upstairs. In the house her parents lived in packing for books to take with him. She is moving out of half into books are her most important possessions. Downstairs, her mother is singing Michelle, a Beatles Love Song, into a microphone around the room or amplifier speakers and other sound equipment. outside this room, sitting in an armchair and reading a paper with his back to the mother is the Father. The patient knows that as soon as the mother is finished, the thong she's the mother is has to kill herself. The patient runs downstairs and picks up the rifle, the weapon with which her mother intends to shoot herself. However, she's unable to smash the rifle even by jumping on it, because it is encased in some sort of plastic. The dream is at this point. So that that was the one particular dream that she had. And in my analysis of it, I tried to integrate in some of the my understanding of Mother Daughter dynamics. Three really exemplifies both mother daughter dynamics and the way in which patriarchy determines a lot of the character of those relations. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  52:22
Does she have associations? Or? Or is it mainly you're working with? How did you go about? Uh huh. Well, with with her and with other patients, the first thing I really had to just let her or encouraged her to talk about was how she felt in the dream. And as a result is a dream. And to really try to, in a sense, remove her from the dream, because, you know, was someone who can easily distinguish between reality and dream that first you had to really just talk about her feelings in the dream and how the dream left her feeling. So that that's what we would talk about first, and only after a lot of those those feelings have been talked about. And she felt more safe and to appear, in present time would do beginning to sort of more Orthodox analysis of the elements of the dream. So that's, that's how I would start preparing with patients like that, in general, I think you really have to work first on the feelings and on the transference relationship with you before it's safe for patients like this to start analyzing and tearing apart elements, which are very upset that you feel that this didn't happen. She was terrified by the stream, but it revealed that it happened, but it made her feel so terrified, as you see that she called me up from Ohio to tell you about to tell me about it. So that so that it was very terrifying to her. And she took it basically as being something which could very easily happen, even though she knew that it did it. But she found it hard to get out of the dream fairly hard to get out of feeling aroused by three so it's very boring just locating the her act no actually she she was here when she told me about the dream but it was related to something happened to her at the time. as well. Let me tell you a little bit about what I thought about this dream and you may want to add things that you see that I didn't see in it as well. So dream was built both out of her personal history hadn't actually been horses been passing on. The patient had been visiting her parents and sorting through her books, deciding which ones to keep and take with her this is actually happening and which ones to sell. The mother suggested that the patient allow her father to look through the books she wanted to sell to see if you wanted to keep

Unknown Speaker  54:59
this suggestion provoking intense arguments between the two. And through the patient to such a state of anxiety and unacknowledged rage, that she called me long distance, to talk about the events. That's really them. This is what this is what we, you know, she had the dream, I think, a couple of weeks after this real event. But this is this is the part that got incorporated into three books and reading and always been for me to escape from the family to World Order rules and regularity. They represented a world economy free from the intrusion of her father and grandfather in demands for mother. Now her mother was trying to intervene even there and worse to introduce the Father's presence as well. Is important to know both symbolism and the content of the dream, because they throw live not only on this particular woman psychodynamics sex gender system as a whole, upstairs simply symbolically in the more rational part of the mind, the ego or reason, case packing, her books also symbol the economy, order in reason, and her means of escaping the craziness of the family dynamic below and unconscious. The books aren't ambivalence in law, because they are identified as the male knows the symmetry with the Father reading his newspaper, a chronicle of the external primarily male normally then, in fact, it's turned to the mother, who is singing her desperate song Love. And it's not clear who the mother is seeing the song too. And also interesting to note that the songs partly in French. So I think that's also a symbol of sort of the deep ambivalence. In some level intelligibility. Describe, the mother is experienced by both father and daughter, as the ultimate source and reflection of that messy, contradictory sexual, it's sometimes terrifying, unconscious world when they both wish to escape. Because neither the daughter's upstairs she wants to stay in her world of books. The father is downstairs with his back to her in his chair, reading his newspaper, trying to get into the external world, and also to block out the mother who, after all, singing through an amplifier, in a microphone, you know, there's also courses of fallot element to it. And so on another level, here's the poor mother with a phallic object trying to reach either her daughter or her husband, through the power, literally power this phallic object. So felt objects appear in number levels in the screen. You have the daughter is also tied to and identified with the mother. If she takes the male route of escape, it will literally kill her mother. And that part of her which is like the mother, so that her escape can only come at the expense of both her mother and herself. The mother's identity comes from inside the family, she will cease to exist when her daughter leaves because she can't be a mother, without her was typical partner, a child so that her mother is very threatened by the fact that her daughter's packing up and leaving with the sort of the ultimate leaving act. Yeah, before you begin to analyze this,

Unknown Speaker  58:22
don't you have to make the distinction between the actual mother and the fantasy view of the mother held by the child? I mean, the child certainly could could experience that as her predicament. But that is not necessarily. I mean, you know, a great deal more about right, what's the actual strategy,

Unknown Speaker  58:39
I just tried to analyze the street from the perspective of the patient. So for our purposes, what counts right now is her experience of the most. At this stage, we're not really at the initial stage of trying to analyze this the crucial issues not so much the mother as a separate person, except for later reality checking. But first we need to experience internally within this woman's own psyche as to how she experiences the world. And then later, at least is the way I work later, we can do a reality check, but what counts for now how she experiences this,

Unknown Speaker  59:17
but she also is she also knows in some mystical, magical way that the mother intends to kill herself. But there's within the context of the dream, there's no explicit communication

Unknown Speaker  59:28
of that. Well, it's very explicit. The mother's got this rifle and she knows as I described in the dream, that the month she knew that as soon as the mother finished the song, she was going to pick up the rifle killer. Okay. Okay. But that's a good point. The question you asked, I am describing it from the experience of a patient which may or may not have that much to do with reality, but for now, we just take it for granted said does. All right. The daughters, so that the mother one of the reasons that the doll, the daughter experiences that the mother will kill herself is that she will cease to exist when the daughter leaves, because she can't be a mother because her own identity is bound up when her daughter leaves his mother and daughters reciprocal relationships do not, if you don't have a daughter, you know and love that, for this mother, who's the daughter experienced, the mother will die is kills the mother, if she no longer a daughter, the daughters responsible for her mother in that her leaving destroyed the great grandfather, she must be trained for mother issues to exert her own autonomy, even paying that terrible price, she will net she will not really be free to that as a female, she can never completely enter the world with men, that she must rescue her mother, not only to avoid the guilt of her death, but to make possible to total freedom for yourself. The mother must become powerful for the daughter to exercise meaningful autonomy. And likewise, the daughter must become powerful for the mother. What I noticed in one of my female patients is they feel that they have to save their mothers in order to save themselves, that their own sense of identity, so bound up with the mother, that they feel that unless the mother changes, they can't change, it just continue. So there's this constant struggle about I hear all about some mothers problems, what the mothers feeling and what the mothers doing. And I don't find this equivalent sense of absolute in jasmine in the mother space, whose name their problem, their mothers tend to be more overtly sexual unless they're absolutely central identity. So that, that there's this paradox here that in order for a daughter to be able to feel autonomous, the mother must be powerful. But the daughter must gain power and autonomy for the mother to be powerful. So they're in a basically a double bind. You wish there's apparently no escape. There's a there's a toast historically, that says it's from the 18th century May your daughters equal their mothers and their sons surpassing

Unknown Speaker  1:02:14
people from America

Unknown Speaker  1:02:20
studying Hawks. Right, right. Right. The Rage The Iceman coming in the race, the daughter feels towards the mother. Since dreams are our wishes, as well as expressions of conflict the source of the daughter's anger, so strong as to fantasize her sides her mother's death. Although math by allowing the mother to be active agent must be explored. So that on another level, the stream is the wish for the mother to die, I thought it was the dollar that used to gun no matter what could be possible that the donor was thinking of using the gun against the mother as well as preventing the mother. I mean, I think the ambivalence lay in that the the daughter really did want the mother to die. But that couldn't be over in the relate in a dream a whole bunch of reasons. So that she had to deal with her guilt, she has to make her mother you activate the wishes there for mother to die. And again, this is bound up with a sense of absolute identity between mother and daughter, because one of the ways out of this double bind, is to literally get rid of the mother and the number of patients talk to me about If only my parents would die for more precisely, oh, my mother would die, then maybe I feel free. And somebody just the other day actually said that in that language. So that that part of this wish is not like the rage. But you know, the only way I'm gonna get out of this double bind is to get rid of my mother since she and I are this sort of on separate double dyad but in that

Unknown Speaker  1:04:03
case, if the initial problem is the lack of separation, would it not be then unclear that the daughter that she is

Unknown Speaker  1:04:11
That's right, that's another that's very good point. That's another reason why she can't kill the mother. Because we'll be like killing herself. Right? Right. Yeah, that's yeah, that's definitely another level that don't leave us with that. Okay, so the daughter is angry with the mother for not possessing the sort of power that could free both of them from the chains of dependency on each other and on the Father. Because the father although in fact that turned his reason this paper is not a neutral, figure in in this thing and could provide the doctor with an entry into the outside world with its privileges and responsibilities. There's a father who's literally the gatekeeper. And he's reading his newspaper piece, that sort of reading about the external events. He in the doorway, with the factory, he is the gatekeeper. And only through his approval, and his power can she leave the room, the daughter seats, the mother was powerful and powerless. If she is so powerful in the emotional sphere, why she's so power left in the world outside of family, and relations to the Father and other men. If she was holding her power or pets, she perhaps given it away to the Father, in exchange for what what is the barrier to the mother possessing sort of power which could free her daughter for surely the mother is not powerless within the psyche of her daughter, the tower the father symbolized by the rifle, and by its position, the word chair, blocking the exit from the room holding a key to the chronicle of the outside world newspaper, The Father sorts of power is somewhat mysterious, especially since his exercise silently with his back to the apparent participants, yet his power ultimately determines the character, the drama, and that's one thing I think, is most pervasive and most confusing about patriarchy, that the father, although absent is not in any means. Absent, that the power of the Father determines in ways that are very, very difficult to figure out the name, a lot of the drama, which goes on between mother and daughter. And you often see that mothers become especially dependent on their children, when their relationship with their husband is not satisfactory. And in turn, I think women act out a lot of the things with their husbands that really are unresolved from their own experience with their mothers. One of my favorite things is that what women really look for in their husbands is a mother and of course that has a lot to do with the heterosexual character of our society and as well it anyway

Unknown Speaker  1:07:10
yeah

Unknown Speaker  1:07:12
yeah yeah, no. Actually scared it's just one of those little aside that he throws off but he actually did say that I unfortunately don't have the part of my papers that have to be backed by but to get up and one of the late essays he actually says are wanting but they didn't get on their mother's right that right? Yeah, right, nurturing or whatever it is. Okay, let me go on this a little bit more to the stream. Or my analysis of it. Despite the fact that the rifle of phallic symbol is encased in plastic, which is a symbol of inauthenticity and inorganic nature, it's still powerful enough to kill the mother. So that we don't have to have an absolute all powerful patriarchal Father, to have His power be threatened enough and effective enough to kill them as the very that very rapid and plastic making the phallic power invisible to the daughter and incapable of destruction. Nurses apparent lack was involved in the struggle between mother and daughter, and his very real inability to provide emotional support to either mother or daughter. The source of his power is twofold possession of a phallus and the South centric world has connections to and with the world outside of the family or world which is split inner and outer publican. Only he can connect the daughter to the public world is by His grace when she enters there, if he can withdraw his permission as well, especially if she attempts to bring the mother female identities into that world. So that one is cause of injury to male world is to either kill the mother or to craft the part of himself which is female. There's one remaining piece of the puzzle to whom is the mother singing my song sounds because press in a particular case, this was lovers of rock musicians, which sort of backs up Freud remark about the relationship between mothers and husbands. That sort of technology is strongly identified with men who've been rock music men dominate with occasionally a woman vocalist only apparently that's a similar to once again points to the mother's powerlessness she has to use a symbol of now power microphone as phallus the world of rock and roll the male written love song for a woman to appeal to her daughter, certainly, but also perhaps to her husband. She is so afraid of not being heard and impenetrability that she must amplify with sleep in her relationship with him and we're gratified she could have Less of her daughter, perhaps she's trying to free her daughter. And the only way she knows how, by either annihilating herself or very improbably, finally getting through to her husband and being able to transfer her needs from her daughter back to him. But the second solution would require breaking his phallus power, and outcome, which at least within the dream seems impossible. Shooting yourself did on the other hand, is very hostile and angry and addressed to both father and daughter. And exemplifies one of the main ways women deal with anger by repressing it and turning it against themselves. So,

Unknown Speaker  1:10:37
basically, in the dream, I think, what we see is what I see over and over again, in my experience, that women's identity is bound up with their mothers. To a degree, that is not the case. That even though in my experience, the of course, the pre edible period is very powerful, and very scary for men. And that men have to define themselves as not female. There's another level at which women feel that their entire faith is bound up with the fate of their mothers, because they are after all, female. And we live in a world which totally differentiated along the lines of gender, so that the only way to escape being female, and all the images are female, which of course is one element. The early experience, powerlessness, feeling aspects and so on, is to be male, to try to be like male, and that means nine parts of oneself and we, and rejecting the mother, often within a family dynamic, the same way that the father rejects the mother, and conveys to the daughter feelings of the mother's not a very adequate person downgrading the daughter, you often see this, this kind of dynamic as well. And so the daughter adopts the father's view of the mother for his purposes. And for her, and the father to also use this in a very seductive way to sort of entice the daughter, to a relationship. And so that many women, I feel, in a very deep level, have their self identity bound up with their mother and the mother's faith. And the other side of this, I think, which I don't really want to go into here, but I could talk a little bit more is that I think that for many reasons, women also don't get the nurturance get early infantile experience that they need. And following Mahler and the arguments that in the early symbiotic phase, that women don't get an adequate experience of nurturing. And nurturing is absolutely crucial to leave the symbiotic faith, that women are left with this very contradictory wish, that on the one hand, they always feel hungry, they always feel that they didn't get something, that they're missing something, that there's something that they pray, that they want to be loved, and that that feeling can only be satisfied, ultimately by a woman. And that, for a number of things, women don't get the nurturance they need, because of their mother's own experience as a mother and as a female, returning also were not granted autonomy by their mother, so that they experience of conflict, perpetual conflict between desire for nurturance, which can only come from women, and sorry for autonomy, which can only come from men, it is experienced as a denial and a rejection of the mother, who you're also bound up in the early pre verbal relationship with always trying to get filled up, and trying to get nurtured by her so that women often experienced a dilemma. Am I going to be loved? Or will I be successful? Will someone love me? Or will they approve approve of me? Can I be intellectual? Or can I be a woman? And many women I see that really difficult to resolve. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:14:25
I think that as as, as feminist, feminist, revolutionary approach that I would like to have you addressed with what it means to bring a feminist analysis. Important thing. For me, it's the celebration of the private sphere and inside of that celebration, begin. only looking at the tensions and animosity that took place to also look at its potential at rich. There's two ways to correct But he's important that you have some structure to this, we also look at the board. And we don't lose sight of that in our work as whatever. And that, to me is celebration connection.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:15
Right. And I

Unknown Speaker  1:15:16
was just, I didn't hear that word was really beautiful. I don't hear that.

Unknown Speaker  1:15:19
Yeah, I sort of abbreviated that part, I go into that a little bit in my paper on mothers and daughters to talk about how that shows up in feminism. And I think that feminism, one of the roots of feminism is this desire to be felt appreciated and nurtured by women. And that it's noticeable to me that myself and other other women, were really only able to have close relationships with women that worked on a number of levels after they became feminists. And that, in turn, however, the split between autonomy and nurturing, it's not just something which occurs in the family, that that that split between autonomy and nurture destructured in every element of our lives, and that as feminist, that means that we have to critique the way for example, work is organized, there's no work is not nurturing, as I'm sure I don't have to tell anybody. And that work is organized according to very competitive, very benign, very non nurturing measures and stuff and a lot of the contradiction that people feel it's not just because of their early infantile experience, but it has a kind of resonance, and particular paralysis for women. Because of this this result, ambivalent men know they have to work. And men can I take credit, for their desire for nurturance. It's not that they don't have them. But also, I think the other part of that is that they have a wife that will nurture for nourishment and healing, and often don't nurture women. And if you're not a lesbian, you, it's often difficult to work out these desires for nurturance, with your other women, friends, even if you are a lesbian, or being lesbian is no solution to a lot of these fun, fulfill wishes about mothers, they show up in lesbian relationships, in many destructive ways as well. So I think you're right there. I think that as a feminist, what the drive before is really that we have to read completely restructure the world that women are to live in, and that, you know, that as you become a feminist, you can't tolerate it gets harder and harder to tolerate certain things that you're expected to put up with, certainly, in professional life, and professional life is totally oriented around I think of this nine of the 16 month old son, and you know, people call me up at conferences and so on, I think, well, you know, I have this kid, you know, it's assuming that, you know, some people usually do has, you know, men have wives and kids, it's assuming there's somebody there to take care of the domestic sphere, and this guy goes back and around, you know, you go to somebody called me and said, Can you come out Chicago for a day, when you, you know, the kind of balancing and what that does to you. And that's the way the professional world operates to all know, you're expected to be able to, you know, just put in all this incredible amount of time and effort and you go home at the end of the day, because you have a wife to fill you up. And so that I think it drives you towards really rethinking and restructuring, a lot of things like including, you know, what it means to be smaller, but what it means to be professional, what are the presuppositions of the expectations? And they don't for

Unknown Speaker  1:18:35
the women's experience

Unknown Speaker  1:18:39
right? That's right. To be a serious scholar, you have to be out there in the library 15 hours a day, you know, I mean, really

Unknown Speaker  1:18:48
are working towards

Unknown Speaker  1:18:51
the end to your problem, that's the right thing I hadn't

Unknown Speaker  1:18:54
that consciousness they care all over the place.

Unknown Speaker  1:19:02
And that's that's another way. I think that's another way to take care of beginners due to our most intimate relation. Because in order to have the kind of relationships we want, right, we have to totally transform our society. I think there's just no way I think there will be completely resolve all these problems by you know, going to analysis and you know, having you work out in your home and your mother, your, you know, their the outside world, always in truth in all sorts of ways that you don't completely control and you will inevitably get played out. I mean, the other stands to understand part of this is that children, of course, very early, but realize, I have a friend who's a feminist and she's always told her daughter, male person, fire person, and so on. And your daughter was two years old. Okay there are no fire people, let's just call them firemen. There are no post people. They're all men.

Unknown Speaker  1:20:10
In person, she's nursing a baby. She's wanting

Unknown Speaker  1:20:16
to go work. Yes. Like me, you know, I think, what am I going to teach? You know, if he's not aggressive and competitive, Natalie's gonna get beat up by his peers. But so when you're doing, she's not just want

Unknown Speaker  1:20:38
to I think that I think that's really your approach great and you've been dreaming the problem of the split between the nurturing as feminists, I think, where this paradigm is sufficient in terms of helping to do with it, because that hasn't put into the fifth put into this paragraph, you do this in a scuffle. That is how the present structures in which we live. We enforce the infantile underpinnings through saying you could analyze from here to tomorrow. But as far as the love and success issue, I think that it's more helpful to clients to be present oriented about that, because because a woman can choose a potential companion for itself who encourage her intuition. And her infantile underpinnings will will be will be Sally and who she chooses, either to encourage her or two people who are. So in that sense, we need a coordinated approach to understanding but at the same time, because of this is the therapist giving us the license to explicitly unconsciously be as directed as make the smelter and what she was doing, what kind of incredibly important she's created. I believe that that's more important. And in keeping it up, because I think that change can happen more quickly. If a person can we over, SEE IT consulting and create a present situation, which will be supportive, then they'll get out of the other stuff much quicker, and then we can and then I go back and analyze it more historically. But if you can, if you can make the leap so that your behavior changes your feelings, that's economical. And the same way, just my experience with my college classes are much like what what you described about the change of dependency, where there's a mutual bind, where the mother says she can't move until the children are still in Washington life, and the voters spend a great deal of time with therapy talking about her mother. And because I'm a family therapist, congratulations on to your mother's family visit, I get them in in there. And it's very often that there's some kind of I don't want to be blaming the victim here, but it's unclear who was the victim, because it's the kind of thing that

Unknown Speaker  1:22:51
they're laying on each other.

Unknown Speaker  1:22:53
Because, in reality, this mother, whose daughter is worrying about is either going to get herself together one of these days. And meanwhile, the girl will have wasted her time bemoaning her Mother's Day, Mother's stock and all of that, and nothing would make her happier than to stand on the shore of where her age cohort is, and wait for daughter on to bigger and better things. So that there's a certain you know, hostility or accusation there, which is I think that that, in conceptualizing it, I put some more on role models that are nurtured because the person who is empty nurturance is a person who doesn't have a place in the world and giving them a place to do anything. So that this preposterous idea of who I said that the child leaves the mother for not giving her opinion, what I see it as being an effing describe the split between nurturance and autonomy that my mother did not show me a way to get into the world feel more relaxed.

Unknown Speaker  1:23:59
I think one thing I would disagree with you about is that I think it depends on with, partly of certification. You mentioned, my clients are not as distributed, you're

Unknown Speaker  1:24:12
the only reality and we will very fast and

Unknown Speaker  1:24:16
you know, if you, if you have someone who's really terribly to serve, you have to build, one of the things you have to do is build buffer for self which you do through interaction with the therapist. And I sort of fixed on this in terms of one of the people talks that there are feelings which can't be said, and that one of the most powerful parts do terapy is to really witness the person. And that doesn't mean analyzing it. That doesn't mean necessarily running it through it be sitting there while the patient actually is feeling in front of you. And I can be a family transformative experience, especially in women Watch out seeing another woman actually show up.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:05
And so that, you know.

Unknown Speaker  1:25:09
So, as an employee, so we have to, you know, we have to be very, you know, have a multitude of differences. And, you know, we have to depend partly on level

Unknown Speaker  1:25:19
two event that is incredibly evident in what you deal with customers for abusive one type of care you in dealing couples therapy with a male is the abuser physical abuse. That's one kind of therapy, but I also do groups of women who are I run a group for women who are physically abused, and is absolutely down the arms watched the ego strength build in the group. And after eight weeks, you will open it up to that versus kind of the group moves in different stages of the group and, and you can see the difference in the women's concept of themselves. And the, the images that they project are astounding, not only to be good therapists, but to the women themselves, and they will sit there and say four months ago, I felt that way. Four weeks ago, I felt I deserved this treatment, I no longer believe that about myself. And that is the crucial identity, I no longer believe this about myself and it becomes the internal strength of I will no longer allow someone to treat me this way. I will not allow them. And and the the internalization of your strength and it's not

Unknown Speaker  1:26:46
innate, wait to see No,

Unknown Speaker  1:26:48
no, no, no, no, no, that, but I'm saying that sounding it's

Unknown Speaker  1:26:59
and I'm not saying this one was on the way through. But just meeting another woman who is sharing, communicating, allowing to feel are full of women who had never, I think what they were the only one way that they could somehow therefore be shamed. And with days with him to stay the beans melted, because I walk in and see a back straighter than

Unknown Speaker  1:27:30
the other side of countertransference that it's very hard for a therapist, to allow that to happen. And that's where your own issues without being allowed to include mother being not ego threatened by your patients and patients going through women therapists will include patients who can, you know, I'm it's bad men often because the men just want to rush the women to support the intellectual, you know, analytic stage. And so they often just turn it off. But I think it's very easy for for therapists to get so threatened by materials and also because there's so much involved with their own economy, allow yourself to be dependent on for a long period of time, is can be a very threatening thing. And if you want to sort of I noticed when I first started in Tempe, that we kind of curry alone, like patients, I couldn't wait to get into negative transit, I was told the only negative transfer, because I knew that they were on step to having their own autonomy, salads lay off you and they lay off, you know, they lay off me in a certain level. And I think the same thing happens for women, her mother, you know, that, that it's very threatening for a mother to deal with a very small thing, it raises all sorts of issues about differentiation, you know, the good enough mother and in in linocuts, is also has to allow certain amounts to do her own feelings, you have to enter into a feeling state. And if you don't have a core self, that and that's one of the reasons I was going to argue that I think that women tend to get less nurturance from their mothers and then, because I think it's more threatening for women to allow themselves to enter into a symbiosis symbiotic nurturing relation with their daughter, because the threat to identity is much greater with the boy baby, no different. We've already got some built in differentiation, but it's not true with mothers with their small daughters, and so that there's a certain level in which it's more difficult for a woman to get good enough parenting to their daughter. That leads part of the forces of hunger for nurture. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:29:40
it's socially more socially acceptable to be so great. You both

Unknown Speaker  1:29:47
know exactly what's the probably

Unknown Speaker  1:29:53
the first year that is socially acceptable. Oh, isn't that wonderful? I mean, I've never met a real show his face. Oh, and so on. So when it came to indicate, you know, the best ever the best people would be around, pregnant I had my male child whenever I needed time would give me to give to him. And that was okay.

Unknown Speaker  1:30:13
Let's see, I think the literature is often misleading with what they focus on things as overt stuff like how much you get cuddled all the eye contact, all that sort of stuff with women's in the girl baby. But I think what's really significant and people only start to analyze the way mothers feeling they are transferred to the child and that sort of helpful that the object relations theory to it. And certainly my patients describe to me a sense of not knowing where they can their mothers begin. And that they very, there's a lot of confusion about who's the mother and that they very early got a sense that they wanted their mother, their mothers who wanted the daughter's mother that and and that they never got enough. If I've heard one phrase from women, I've never had enough. And I think that that is because if one's own poor self isn't to say that it's very difficult to be on and visibly to me, I symbiotic with the rural town and was just not as threatened with a boycott, and that it's been replicated in the next generation, because you didn't get good enough mother, and so that you can't give it to your daughter. And it just goes on and on and on. You see these endless chains? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:31:32
it just seems to me though, that it's categorically impossible for anybody ever to get enough of anything. Okay, but if you start with that, when you start with the fact that there is no money, who's going to be the perfect mother, who's going to absolutely give the child of whatever set? Yeah. Anything that that, Charlie, we might just as well look at that as, as a function of the mother daughter confusion?

Unknown Speaker  1:31:56
No, I'm not. That's why I said specifically good enough parenting, the whole concept of good enough parenting means far from being perfect. Or giving and certainly will be disaster to give a child everything at once. Because you could never develop an autonomous self. I mean, sometimes women do that with their daughters. They just totally smother them. Good enough. Parenting does not just involve an endless selfless, you know, up 24 hours a day, trying to totally Intuit what this kid means that every segment is a whole concept, which I can't really go into here. But when it talks about

Unknown Speaker  1:32:31
another couple times, I do understand the danger of not examining a daughter's assertion that there hasn't been enough, isn't it to Friday?

Unknown Speaker  1:32:41
Yeah. All right. Well, that's really the bottom line. Right. Right. But I think it's clear that someone who is herself acknowledges has incredible unresolved things about her mother, which she acknowledges cannot even go into therapy, because they're so threatening. And so I read that book much more.

Unknown Speaker  1:32:58
Clearly. She's a writer who has 2,700,000.

Unknown Speaker  1:33:02
That's exactly for the same reason I'm talking about because lots of women feel that way about their mothers. And that often doesn't mean that they're correct. I mean, I think that I'm happy to agree with you, because I've talked with parents a lot

Unknown Speaker  1:33:17
about how they perceive their tone. And

Unknown Speaker  1:33:23
the media image that I think one of the main problems is to say,

Unknown Speaker  1:33:30
All of this happens between fathers. And when you read them all and will carefully one of the things that's very

Unknown Speaker  1:33:37
frightening about it, is all of the case studies are quote

Unknown Speaker  1:33:42
normal, enough mothering leads them to call into

Unknown Speaker  1:33:46
question, the notion of whether there can be good in a courtroom. And I think that's quite disturbing. I don't think we really know enough about what needs to

Unknown Speaker  1:33:55
be