Unknown Speaker 00:01 What about him? What's his Unknown Speaker 00:08 pretty stupid music not getting paid? Yeah, right. Where was he coming from with a why somewhere else? Unknown Speaker 00:20 Well, the fact that he had a wife somewhere else is not that bizarre in the sense that there are all kinds of situations in which marriage is de facto break down either for reasons of incompatibility and or some business or rather, you know, he came with somebody to, you know, to Italy on some kind of business, and you know, that stalking couldn't get back and that kind of brokenness of families or sort of long distance marriages or whatever you do see, as not necessarily a sort of really bizarre thing. But Unknown Speaker 00:52 it that she was gonna choose. Unknown Speaker 01:00 That's what she said. Although it isn't clear who that was, or what Unknown Speaker 01:07 steps the adjoining Unknown Speaker 01:09 Yes, well, there's that I mean, his his notion is that maybe there was something between the padroni and the daughter, and that might have something to do with why the padroni would be willing to marry her. Without a doubt, right. But it's never, never honor at this time. Unknown Speaker 01:26 Was I'm thinking in terms of like, if you if you think of 20th century stuff, another younger than 10 Little Holliday, who was who was, was deemed to be responsible for maintaining by a judge. And, and given to a convent or something. Do something about the terrible world, which is a 20th century rape victim thing for a kid. Like at this time, if a kid was raped at that age, if it considered to be dishonor to her somehow default, or does the family refund? Unknown Speaker 02:15 Well, if the family can wreak vengeance on the perpetrator, then that cleans up the situation. It's really emphasized that this whole honor thing has to do with public outside overt behavior, it doesn't really matter whether it's or folded happened, it was known to have happened. And a lot of what the honor thing is about is we can protect our own. Either it's our maybe it's focuses on the chastity of our women, in some instances, elaborate on her stuff around property, in some senses, the things we were talking about before, now throwing things at somebody's house, you know, you can't keep your house from being made dirty by the outsiders. I mean, that's part of what shameful about it. But this notion of control, there's a notion of protection of what is your own, I think it's one of the sort of underlying themes of all of this. And so the problem is not whether or not she asked for it as a rape victim, but the fact that you couldn't keep her out of trouble. That's where the honor dishonor to the family resides, that you didn't keep her out of out of harm's way. And therefore, you have to rectify it in some way. The putting in the convent business is interesting, because they certainly had not just rape victims. There were various ways of fixing that up, if you could marry the woman off to the person who had raped her, then that made things okay. And that was, you know, what this backup was? Whether or not these things are right, in our sense of rape is something you also have to talk about, certainly, in some instances, it looks a lot like the women were complicit that, that that these were love affairs that developed between young people that, for instance, if a love affair develops, they have six family finds out about it, he may or may not want to marry her. The family may take the case to court in order to pressure him to marry her. For instance, it's a crime, the crime has deflowering her. But what the family really wants is not really not that he'd be put in jail just sent to the galleys, they just mail they want to put pressure on him to make things right by marrying or he seems reluctant to do so. There are other kinds of situations in which I think it may be in some cases experientially a kind of right, in the sense that virgins can't by definition, willingly give up this thing. So there has to be conceptually some force but that doesn't have to thoroughly I think maybe it has to be unpleasant or violent. It's a weird different space for thinking about the situation than we are accustomed to. It's a very different set. Sure, there were some rapes there, you know, nasty, violent assault. But not all of them are. And certainly when you look at the mean, look at rapes, Virgin rapes tried in the courts. In the case of my, the Carter's daughters I was talking about, that's a rape case, the father charges rape against the Goddess that they've the woman was sleeping with. But as they tell their story, it was very clear that they made a deal with some guys, they got some money, and they, you know, they made love. Unknown Speaker 05:45 The father from the father's point of view, that's right. From the crime from the courts point of view that's handled is right. Unknown Speaker 05:53 Now, presumably, the the guys didn't get terribly much trouble if the girls didn't corroborate the story isn't right. But so it's, it's a much more complex group of phenomena than, than just Unknown Speaker 06:09 a woman who was sexually abused by somebody. In that sense, much as we've made America a user. Unknown Speaker 06:19 So in essence, it's hard to generalize about the criminal status, right? It means a lot of different things. Personal Unknown Speaker 06:31 use case, it doesn't seem like what I would call the 25th, child sexual abuse is really a factor in the abduction. She never identifies needed, and it doesn't seem like it needs to come into play a lot. That goes into that is going to be better. In fact, you're getting a sense from the research that we've done the last couple times a lot, of course, from what you've been able to read allegations of child sexual abuse, which I just think is interesting, because we talk about honor and shame. You're also talking about public and private, if you can keep it private, and it's not public, then there's no appearance of dishonor. And, you know, from a 20th century perspective, the individual bears the burden of Sure, whatever that is, but it doesn't become a public place. Unknown Speaker 07:19 So I've seen a couple of cases of children who are clearly manipulated and abused. It doesn't come up very often. And I think it has a lot to do with how people using the court, the court cases don't come to court, as you say, unless there's some kind of public problem, or there's a problem with somebody who has an interest in making public. I would argue that a lot of this has to do with these people using the courts and using the public authority as a vehicle for working out their own, what we would regard as private issues, rather than like it's the state of imposing some kind of Unknown Speaker 08:01 private issues. It's what we're looking at the world Unknown Speaker 08:05 right now. Certainly, I mean, it might turn up if it was going to is going to be an issue, it might turn up in the chair tomorrow, rather than a public state issue. Unfortunately, we tried very hard to get into those records. And they insisted they either were not available, they're no longer exist, or they are in the office of the position, the Senate to be in position, therefore not a similar church court records and others in other cities, where the records themselves have had a different fortune have been available and who can stay parallel with one of the things but the ones Rome itself, which I would dearly love to see. I would reach all researchers. Office of the propagation of the safe, which is apparently pretty central to being physician does not let anybody. So there will I suspect there is very interesting material on these things in that parallel court system, which was much more directly focusing on morals and ethics, labor force. Now, the thing that strikes me that's interesting about Dana Bernardino, I agree with you. He does seem to be something socially incompetent or something? I'm not sure quite what. But he's the one who talks on it. I don't know whether this is about the Spanish. For me, what does that intensifies? That I simply don't know what you know, his. His culture is not the same as someone visiting local Italian, although there are obviously similarities and differences. But he's the one that wants to protect her own office is partly rhetoric to get himself out of a situation which he doesn't want to get into. He's totally aware of it, he's gonna get it, it's gonna be a mess, there's really no way to get out of this. Now, if he does carry her away, that clearly has a sense of goodwill. But he tries to dissuade her and to dissuade her, he brings in the discussion of honor. And now she shouldn't do this to your family. And if you don't do this to yourself, and so on, she clearly says, Okay, that's something I have to sacrifice. Given the assets that I have, from the situation that I'm in, that matters to me less the honor things, then go by hope to gain by running away, or else as far as we could tell, and she's and we don't know exactly how old she is, but I suspect is 1415 and not altogether mature and finished version herself probably, he's a lot older than she is. But she could manipulate and so that is under torture. Yeah. And again, it's very, it's very hard to know whether under torture when he admits to having had sex with her. That proves it's true or doesn't prove prove it isn't true. Because I've heard a lot of he does make fairly effective arguments later on in the testimony about well, you know, if I was gonna have sex with her, I could, I mean, it really was, you know, I had opportunity, I had circumstances, you know, I had relatively little to lose by doing so. She obviously wants to say, well, you know, our involvement together was more complex, and therefore, you know, we have more playing on and what he was more told, in some way that was the sexual component, relationship between them with the kind of aggravating factor. But again, it's very hard to tell, she may not have anything to do with being sued, assembled. And she may be trying to sort of wiggle her way amongst the pressures of her family, any obligations or feeling she may have about Bernardino, her own sense of where her interest was, which may not be identical with their families, and so on. Unknown Speaker 12:13 Okay, we feel more or less for 30. At this point. I can go on and on, running out of steam and Unknown Speaker 12:25 be in this society, how to have more freedom, with more freedom to have Unknown Speaker 12:35 any type of women without honor? Did they have more freedom? Or did Unknown Speaker 12:40 they have more freedom when they were with the President with? The processors have been supposedly? I mean, the rest of Unknown Speaker 13:01 the not just Well, certainly they mean, the fact that they could bring a suit about this. And it was, you know, it was taken seriously, it was investigated, it wasn't thrown out on the grounds that these women couldn't be conservative Unknown Speaker 13:15 in the sense that the champion was wounded. Unknown Speaker 13:18 And that's certainly true. I think partly that it's very much a continuum phenomenon people talk about as if it's either or, I mean, the ideology says you have it or you don't, in some respects. On the other hand, the whole competitive aspect is all about, can I get a little bit up on you? Can I, you know, if I have if we exchanged, you know, insults, if we have even a literal dual, a kind of a social dual, if I put you down, and I go a little bit off, because that kind of interplay. And so, while a woman was no longer virgins, maybe have been dishonored, that's not an absolute. Yes, you can still get married for dollars. And so on. So that, you know, it's, it's a negotiable variable among a whole lot of other variables. And I think it's an interesting question. I think, certainly, I'm impressed by the self assertiveness of many of them you see in this trial, even with regard to a lot of constraints within which they're operating, and I Pavia is, in some sense, at least you could, you could argue that she's making her way in the world, given a fairly difficult situation to be in, she'd say, Okay, this is where I stand and I'm going to try to make the best of it. I'm going to take responsibility for myself. And certainly, all these women are verbally abusive, and a lot of assertiveness is a lot of aggression in the area. So that kind of thing. impermissible at least to a degree, is very much a circumstantial and contextual thing. They certainly can go beyond that. acceptable limits and prostitutes can do things that polite middle class whites can think that's true. On the other hand, polite middle class wives have some kinds of what you may call freedom or at least options. All right, and they can be all they have no different kinds of social maneuverability. So I think it's hard to sort of say, greater or lesser freedom, but different kinds of freedoms, depending on where you stand in the continuum. Unknown Speaker 15:34 deals with the 17th century in England by Antonia Fraser was the weaker vessel. I have heard of it. And I was really interested in this stuff. When when I saw the data Unknown Speaker 15:48 the same time Right, right. Now I have I haven't quite so there is an honor code there, but it's much more aristocratic, and you find some of this flight. But no, there's there's very interesting variation across all other bullet points on the phrase, right sort of in my head and one thing someday, maybe. Thank you very much.