Unknown Speaker 00:11 My cities back to the Unknown Speaker 00:23 history finger first because no no no Unknown Speaker 00:37 we do first and then go to Vietnam What do you think few more minutes to run about it so Blinka turned out to be way more powerful for the fun Unknown Speaker 01:31 feels like Unknown Speaker 01:35 last year builders this country's below a while Unknown Speaker 02:16 so what are we going to get set up did you see me Unknown Speaker 02:48 can't do anything to the trade my name is Marilyn Yellen I teach Chinese history and Women's History in New York University. Unknown Speaker 03:12 I will Unknown Speaker 03:16 answer cheering you but it's really very informal given especially. And even if you will. So I would like us to go around the country could introduce themselves and say who they are and where they're located. So please, Unknown Speaker 03:35 my name is Pearl unforce. I am originally from New York but I now live in Helsinki, Finland. And I visited New York and I thought this would be an interesting way to spend a Saturday I teach actually, English for special purposes. last location students so I'm interested in let's say while I'm here in the States getting up to date with what's happening here. You're realistic please. Unknown Speaker 04:13 My name is Becky Colima. I am Japan. I came to the US to study women's history at sunrise College. She is just a county. I'm writing my thesis for a master's degree right now about Japanese, the Japanese section of the Women's International League for peace and freedom for world war two Unknown Speaker 04:35 that were Unknown Speaker 04:37 a whole country I mean japan, Japanese government was really militaristic and authoritarian is nice. And while I'm here in this time period, there was a inception of women's peace movement in Japan so I ran with that Unknown Speaker 04:58 My name is Christine Carr. In the area, I'm from Jersey City, I teach Women's Studies at Jersey City State College. I'm the past president of the National Organization for Women of Jersey, first generation here, my mother and father were from Ireland. I am very politically active than a delegate to a number of different conventions, I expect to be another delegate and I took that convention. Granted, I come from Jersey City, which is a very multi racial community in New Jersey. And I want to hear what Asian women have to say, I'm very interested in thank you for being here today Unknown Speaker 05:42 is cherish and introduce case of Shin but you also introduce yourself further position as a graduate student at Rutgers working on women and development. Unknown Speaker 05:52 Before I came to the United States, I worked with two women's organizations, one Korean League of Women Voters, which is different from American and the other one is Churchill united in Korea, and those two organizations have been during the 70s. While I've worked there until 80, to 80 it one through five during the year has been you know, trying to educate, raise the consciousness of women for better and Christian women in terms of feminism and also try to apply it into dictatorship, which have been with my terminal for a long time. And I finished my master's degree while I was working with the focus, and while I was working with this organization, for about six and a half years, I need to build I felt the necessity to study more in terms of feminism. Because we have been learning most Western literature so far, I'd like to go back Unknown Speaker 07:14 Okay, my name is Pasha. Unknown Speaker 07:19 And for people to China, Unknown Speaker 07:21 I'm a graduate student at NYU, there study young Unknown Speaker 07:31 and yeah, I'm particularly interested in women's history is the comparative study of American and Chinese women's Unknown Speaker 07:41 history. Unknown Speaker 07:46 And I will also introduce Jane Werner who will be talking about Vietnamese women post 1975 So women have post revolutionary situation whereas it's possible that hey, Sasha will be talking about women in a pre revolutionary situation if that's the way we want to conceptualize Korean situation. Jane is connected to the Columbia South Asians center the south isn't Unknown Speaker 08:12 I should mention that I that I recently was in Vietnam, was my fifth trip to Vietnam and on my various trips, I've interviewed a lot of Vietnamese women particularly in the country Unknown Speaker 08:26 and I've written about Unknown Speaker 08:31 Vietnamese women naturally number of years my mind's been based on that kind of interaction. Unknown Speaker 08:43 My name is Mohit and my family name Unknown Speaker 08:48 I came from People's Republic Unknown Speaker 08:49 Republic of China. I was a college teacher in China the fiber the Northwest College of minorities the same number Islam two in the city is located in northwest China Unknown Speaker 09:16 now I met Unknown Speaker 09:17 here as a visiting scholar in Bala college Unknown Speaker 09:27 should you want to begin Unknown Speaker 09:28 Yeah, okay. Well, you know, I I couldn't know how many or what kind of god Unknown Speaker 09:57 what I will do Thank you. And, in order to understand the equation, I have to go briefly about the history of Korea so that you can know what tuition is like. And for those of you who may not know, the location of Korea, it's between Japan and China, which is a small country. Unknown Speaker 10:46 Identify all of the places we will be. Yeah, this is Vietnam, right in here. This is the People's Republic of China. This is North Korea, South Korea, the Korean Peninsula, Japan. So our discussions today since probably may have also some comparative discussion with China will take in that part of the world, which is far more populous unknown, and, and then it looks on this particular projection. Unknown Speaker 11:21 So from the location of Korea, you know, you can get a sense of what kind of, you know, difficult life Korean people have been gone through because China that the country in Japan became a big country. So sandwiched in between Korea and Morocco, continuously during the past. And if I go through briefly, Korea was the colony of Japan since 19. Can until the end of second world war in the 1940s, prior to the war. So that shaped, you know, the big part of Korean history, which is legacy. And then with the Liberation with the end of second world war, Korea was divided. And that division is very important, because that has still the main cause of all those problems that we have. And the main reason of Korea division is the Cold War between Soviet Russia and the United States. So that is why there's lot of anti Americanism, especially these days again. So after the Korea was divided into two Korea, North Korea has been supported by them in Russia. And during the Korean War, also China, I chimed in on and of course, South Korea has been made supported by the United States. And since we had a normalization of our relations with Japan, because we have been dealt with Cohen, you know, so there was no diplomatic relations at all until 95. And there have been serious demonstration against the government backwards to normalize relations with Japan. So the division basically shapes the Korean situation until now. And after a Korean War, in 1950. I was born the five days after Korean War broke out Korean War. Korean War ended in 1953. And of course, the whole end was about people killed. And since then, the massive economic and political economic and military aim towards South Korea from the US mainly from the US shaped the present economy and agriculture, agricultural area, and industry, because a lot of surplus agricultural products poured into South Korea, because people were starving. And then a lot of we saw the whoo with Korean agriculture, because that was just 14 people and fill it with economic and military aid coming in from the United States. And you all know from from the dairy according to the FAO 1000 American voters. So the first president to mangry, who was elected as a president in 1948, which is here in South Korea, the government was established in 1948. And just one month later in North Korea of Kenya zones and st Since then, since 1985 1940, name of the First Republic, that is a continuation of dictatorship. Unknown Speaker 15:10 And the first president, run ran third time, after he religion, the Constitution, which you can run twice. And he provided the contribution he went. And there was magic for the election. So the 1960 students got up, and that they demonstrated, and everybody joined professors, even elementary kids, and 23 people died during that demonstration. And finally, the President said, Okay, people want a room. So that was the first experience in our history that we opened for education. And that is why until now, the students are really the makers of Korean history, because they now feel that it's their responsibility to change the situation because of our experience. And after overthrowing the overthrow of that dictatorship, the next year, even before we can have experienced that democracy, military coup happened a person by person. And he also be by the Constitution, he deceived people by first saying that, okay, I will not run for president, I will return to my army. But again, you know, he ran for president and again, even by constitution, so that he could run the third time. And that was during the past regime that all kinds of human rights have been suppressed, we have no freedom of press, we don't know, gathering assembly, those things, we use it to get permit, a permit to go on assembly, things like that. So that and we made until 1979. So he, he ruled about 18 years, from 61 to 79, when he was assassinated by his own right arm person to the KCI into an irony of history, I guess. So after he was assassinated, then worse situation came in, because there was another kind of coup by the army for some time, which was left last president to just finish his term. And this is very important in relation to the US situation, because after he got power in AP right after his death, then the next year in 1980, there was a punch massacre fundraiser city in southern Korea. And he said that about 2000 people got killed to suppress the demonstration down there, because, you know, they supported the anti government later to mention. So, in that situation, since the Korean army is technically under the American command, because situation from the Korean War. So when they moved when chun chun doo Hwan moved the army to down to Punjab, to suppress the demonstration, they, they need the approval of the US commander. And that is the main reason why young people are especially angry about us approval, even though the United States Treasury couldn't do anything like that. But officially, it's under US command. So since then, there has been rigorous anti Americanism within the United States. And the first symptom of it was the burning of American country center in 1980. That was right after I came to the United States and those people who was charged by the Austin is still in prison. And since then, there has been burning on American culture. Unknown Speaker 19:40 The first one was so all major cities because basically there was no channel to express your opinion. Then all the math communication what the membership and it will not go into the street because right with just block them out, if we want to have meeting them, you know, their whole role playing with man or the truck. So that, you know, we have no means of our question. So that was the three major that people just you know, invade the library of the American Culture Center, and they barricaded them and they just sitting and then they have a plank up from the window so that the passengers can see it. And then that was the main tactic during the since a two. And with that situation, there have been a lot of incidents of people burning themselves, set themselves on fire, also as a means of, because if you do not use extreme measures like this, you know, you cannot have no way of expressing your opinion. So that kind of thing continues to happen. And I think last two years alone, there were more than 20 people who commit suicide by that way. And five more. And that includes two laborers, taxi drivers, from all walks of life, but mainly, and there have been more. So that's why there have been appellation of the situation last year. And of course, there has been brutal cases of torture, and what to do with your guests can use and die and your home country and government trying to cover up and then that was so that aggravated the whole situation, which drove the whole Unknown Speaker 21:55 anger in real Unknown Speaker 21:58 first, anger. And then they came home. So that was the situation until last year, so that the government finally conceded that in June 2019. Okay, we will revise the Constitution so that people could press them directly. And then there has been a growing you'd have hope and anticipation. And then the December election, we lost a party person, your table, which came into the office in February this year. That's why he won because, of course, they gave us all the political power, by money and all kinds of propaganda and tactics to divide and move things. So we lost, I guess, the Korean people's consciousness, political economy, or democratic consciousness has not yet ready to extend Unknown Speaker 23:09 regardless of how much fraud or Unknown Speaker 23:13 by not, not working. So that's the best situation and woman's movement, basically, the few slides that I selected from the whole set two sets of slides. The first one, the first, about 10 slides from the 70s, the workers, female worker concentration, it's just a snapshot of each and the last about 12, or is from last year when women also went into this trade because they realized that political struggle is very important to solve human problems. Feminism should be cooperate with a situation and when we fight against the dictatorship, because dictatorship is so much related to the lives of working with women in the factory, the library lives and rolling poor women, all women, so without fight against this dictatorship really helped me to not be achieved. So that's why mainly the women participate. And after I showed this, I briefly talk about one cases of sexual torture which encompasses all these situations. Familiar Stan work when I've worked with children What are the ages? Well usually under from 18 to 25, they make the majority, mostly single, uneducated, unskilled, and because of the economic policies of the dictatorship, that economic development formally started since 1963. And of course, you will know that you know that Korea have been a very, very rapid economic growth, GNP growth and in especially in textiles and electronics, the female labor force is the major one 80% of the textile workers and they come mostly from the rural areas because of the economic policy that victimizes the agricultural sector. These other workers have a meeting during the 70s urban industrial mission has been one of the main place that workers can go and discuss their problems. This is also one of the famous case, which happened in 1978. This is the Tonio textile workers towing companies in China, whereas the port city is near Seoul, and this textile company was the first company there were about 1300 workers and about 10 10,000 workers are female, but they had they had traditionally male union leader, but with the Albany industrial mission support, they elected in 1972, the first female labor union leader and after that, since they tried to make the union real democratic, the company didn't like it and of course, police has been always you know, collaborator of company, which exports a lot of material. So that when they having an election for their delegates, the company hired a gang of you know, a main thoughts and then they push by human shifts into their mouth, no, then you know, and close and you can see the shift to them, yeah, to block them, you know, from voting to prevent them from voting. And then from this sense, that 126 female workers were fired, and they are the face of the company circulated left with so that they cannot find any job in other factories, Unknown Speaker 27:58 which was the company was more in favor of a male union leadership was company Unknown Speaker 28:06 to usually, if there became a labor union, then the company tried to buy them out, they tried to co op them, so that they can be cooperative, they will not work for the workers with no better conditions. And when three male females are activity, labor union, females are not easy to you know, collapse. And there has been you know, we should analyse that he wants you to ask for and usually the man say that, well, you and I are responsible for the whole lives of your family, you are not the main breadwinner, so that you can do whatever you want, but we cannot because we have our families to support, that's their argument, but usually it's females who are not used by the company and when they are in solidarity is really not used. So, this is the female worker who has been arrested by the police car. And after that, they have been you know, fit in in the factory and this is a user of seeing whenever there is a dispute broke out because the company tries to tries everything to prevent their activities. So, you know, always it goes extreme. And when I was working at Korean League of Women Voters, please don't die workers try to you know, solicit support from women's organizations. League of Women Voters was a middle class women's organization. And during the seven days there has not been clear or close tie between Workers Movement and middle class movement in women's organizations and League of Women Voters try to you know, help them and fight to set up a meeting. So that you know, these workers can tell their stories in public, but we were blocked out by the police so Hello friends, I always have a problem if you decide where when and what kind of meeting then the police arrived before. So when we have very really important meaning, you have to hide somewhere you have to go somewhere before because, you know, they're not to be held arrested. You go from here before and then probably the morning four or five o'clock, then you go into that place. But you, oh, they have all kinds of faith. They have spies, you know, to infiltrate your organization always. And for example, when I worked at Lego and voters and churches and united there we are under the surveillance of District Police. So they come to our office every day or anytime and I even treat them a cup of coffee. It's just a way of life. And also there's Korean CIA person we've been charged up organizations Yeah, and she checks all the time and whenever we have meetings telephone these woman are protesting against one instance in 1970 Something mid 1970s as a protest they are wearing the Korean traditional costume and these are very the second woman from the left was the former first lady before I've done power by the pool this is from the last year and these women are having demonstration against the tear gas because tear gas bombs caused a lot of trouble a lot of people were killed even innocent passengers so don't shoot you know let's get rid of the tear gas bombs don't produce any carriers and you know all these women I know very well so the woman in the middle attended the same school I did we belong to the same kind of NASA club and they face again against combat, which is not very heavily Yeah, that's the shield. That's the point. No, no no, no warrior non backlit. Unknown Speaker 33:13 They're not in uniform because they're dealing with middle class women is that Unknown Speaker 33:16 maybe Yeah, but since the demonstration is peaceful, you know, they need they feel that they need to be heavily on usually if the demonstrators demonstrators are students then they throw the you know, the bottles and this is right after one Yonsei University students were hit by the tear gas canister and he was in this hospital Severance Hospital and that people are demonstrating inside the hospital from she died and these people are getting them and one of the tactics Korean people learn from the Philippines case is that distributes the flowers to the combat polish and you know they've opened it up so that they know what can you do when you get flowers. Unknown Speaker 34:31 I think the 60s the flower to the Pentagon the students who rebelled against the Vietnam War flowers the pictures of the combat what can we do? Unknown Speaker 34:49 You can see the whole troop of people this is this is in June, sometime in June when the correlation body have women's organizations try to have meaning inside a church building, so that they can, you know, expose what kind of bad effects, you know, the kid gasp and they are blocking the entrance of that church building. So that nobody can go in. Right? And you know, it's from Unknown Speaker 35:24 somebody running before. Unknown Speaker 35:26 So yeah, so some people won't be for it, you know, inside the building small bunch of people, but that blocks off the majority of the people. Yeah. So the one on the right in red says, Don't shoot. And I don't like, I hate to get really or make alive Kanye. Again, Kanye is the name of the students who were dying. Oh, these people are church, mostly middle class women who are not politically mobilized before during the 70s at all, because, you know, even though they joined women's organizations, but they did not realize that the political situation is really important in women's lives. But I think the whole you know, aggravation of the dictatorship, raise people's consciousness, you know, much more higher. And these women are sitting in an orderly manner, confronting combat. And like, dark, Unknown Speaker 36:51 dark, dark. Unknown Speaker 36:55 You will know what happened to this Helm. Woman, they just shoot the tear gas to disperse the people. So look like to set it a woman is carried away. And there has been lot of warnings and wounded people from this tear gas. Unknown Speaker 37:18 This president breaking Oh, Unknown Speaker 37:21 yeah, sure. Sure. Anything like President Reagan was the first. Right. So the first thing he did right after he became the president, it was in no way was to invite President John Doe one. And then, you know, if a dictator is invited by the United States, then the next day the whole newspapers filled with photographers that shaking hands with Ray God, you know, showing hand holding shoulders and you know, there's a big propaganda Well, United States supports our prisons this much in this, this. So there is a saying that in the United States, costs, Korea catches. Unknown Speaker 38:13 The woman in the left also belong to our group. And she has been working in albinism permission with a woman laborers. And these are young women. Even the vendor on the street, she's selling bananas. And you can see that she's wearing the plastic wrap over her head prevents the gap. You can see person from Mars. Unknown Speaker 38:43 That's dangerous. Plastic bag, like Unknown Speaker 38:46 Yeah, the most usual way for people was to put toothpaste on their eyes and then wearing masks or sometimes they put the union wrap the wrap their eyes, you cannot pass by the street without really getting hurt and crying. And you know, once my friend visited Korea last year, and she said a man she took her four year old daughter into the street. And you know, sometimes the tear gas comes into the bus, running buses in the street and you know, just the whole day or daughter cry a lot a lot because it's very hot and very painful. Yeah, and medical students but universities, you know, come as a first aid rescue and then they are treating well this person is not even a participant in a demonstration with the passenger and confirm Unknown Speaker 40:00 All right. I've talked a few minutes about a sexual torture case. Just put on the line. Unknown Speaker 40:13 And that's it this happened in 1986. In June, a woman was named in some fun last name. And she was Unknown Speaker 40:33 the woman scholar Unknown Speaker 40:38 is it the workshop you're looking for? That it was the title and the title Unknown Speaker 40:43 on political participation in action. That's what we're gonna continue on. Unknown Speaker 40:54 In so I N S. Okay, that's a first name, but K W. O N. And she was junior of Seoul National University, Seoul National University is like covered in the United States. Top number one, co Ed University, and she was a junior in material department. I don't know whether you have the same department, but which studies about the materials, textile design. And her dream was to become a designer, she wants to go to Paris and become a designer. And, you know, she graduated at the top students from the high school. So she was a normal, you know, middle class woman. And after she became the students, and of course, the college students, you know, she began to be socially conscious Hi. And then she decided, well, what use is it? You know, to study in this, at this time of Korean history, you know, what is of us to become college students. So she decided to become a laborer in the factory. And since, you know, if you are politically conscious, antis, then you know, we will you realize how important the labor problem is, the real problem is, and then those students mostly know, they go into the factories and become laborers, they try to identify themselves, they want to live, they want to share the agony of life with the workers. Right? So so she became workers. But the process, she got a job in a factory is she has to use a friend's ID, because if you are a college, educated, Junior, you cannot get a job in a factory because they don't want to that educated woman. They don't say they don't want wise woman because they are the problem. So she has to use documents, other people's IDs, and that was exposed. So she was taken into the police. And she was questioned. And in that process, please also questioned her about other people who was involved in another incident in May that year, and it was a big demonstration in each of them and people are hiding. So they went to try to find out about the hydatidiform. And of course, if she does, she doesn't know about those people. She's actually got to know and then the placement one of the placements that well, you know, if you don't tell me I will use another method. And then he the man who is married and have children, she ended up with station, he been oppressed, and he ordered to take her clothes off. And you know, of course your shoes you cried and things. And, you know, that was repeated. And then it's a kind of, you know, giving humiliation and also horror and all kinds of psychological things. So finally, she was raped within the police station, and that she told a story to other inmates. And that story got out. And at that time, you know, the Human Rights article that was shipped, really made it public. And there have been 166 lawyers backing up that case, everybody and but she was sentenced to one year and In that placement, Godfrey fired from his job. And so this is, and then the government was saying that the prosecutors officers from press release was that she tried to use a sex as a tool for the revolution. You know, they tried to turn the story upside down. And there have been a lot of struggle on one side, but called Family First, her family lawyer, not the 166. Lawyer, but before they got into contact with a family lawyer by turn, well, why don't you know? Unknown Speaker 45:50 Why don't you cover it? Because Unknown Speaker 45:54 it's not public, your affiliation. Since rape is a big thing. Still chastity either ideology is very strong. And I was shocked one time when I'm watching TV when jump points that she was right. You know, no. more radical feminism, which include the political struggle, because, you know, you cannot fight sexism without overthrowing the dictatorship. And there has been more closely between the female workers and middle class women. So if you're looking at newsletters of ABS material, for example, there has been sections which cover there has been sections which cover workers problem for women's problems, problems, not only the middle class, so there has been more close ties. And in 87, there has been the establishment foundation of association of Korean female workers. The workers did not have their own female organization before. Or auxiliary, labor union women's department like that, but they organize their own network. And there have been also just better publishing. So, I guess it's much more than I talk too much, Unknown Speaker 47:44 is extremely interesting. Should we have questions? Now? Do you want to wait until after we talk about Vietnam, as well, because the concluding the conclusion of this presentation is that you cannot fight sexism without overthrowing the dictatorship. And in Vietnam, at least one interpretation of what has occurred since 1975, is that the dictatorship which held power in the South as a product of American intervention was indeed overthrown. And one of the question that arises is what happens to sexism in a post revolutionary society, which is what Jane is going to talk about. And I'm easy as to whether you ask questions about the Korean situation now or if we have questions about both afterwards. If anyone has a burning question, why not ask it now? If not, we'll proceed Unknown Speaker 48:39 to some information. 95. Who is in power? Unknown Speaker 48:47 Is that a dictatorship? Of course, Unknown Speaker 48:50 yeah. We didn't have any democratic wrench in if you know if that that brief period, after we always do is immersion with by the student revolution, and before the cooking, it's about eight months. Unknown Speaker 49:06 So that was an excess Unknown Speaker 49:07 that 96 days that there there is no Unknown Speaker 49:10 quit. Like, I've watched the latest elections, it was a three way race. And I was concerned that was happening and appears the person who won is the person that the United States is supposed to be comfortable with. And then the other two, you know, because they ran, they ran together. Said ran against each other they combined their their votes. Pick one of them, they could have beaten him, but since they decided to split their vote, then he came up. Do you agree with that? Unknown Speaker 49:46 Well, there's lots of different interpretation. And, of course, I guess if they got together if they united, you know, not as volume against each other, but Mike came out as one can And they're, I don't think they could win because but they could blocked the blame from the people. But it's because of you not uniting. Unknown Speaker 50:10 That's why I heard our political pundits too happy. And so I'm not comfortable with this. Unknown Speaker 50:17 But you can, you can never tell whether they could win. Because still there have been massive manipulation, Unknown Speaker 50:26 I was about to say there was also talk about fraud, voter fraud. And there were many people coming in to complain about voter, Unknown Speaker 50:33 not not only the election, the election itself, but for example, the government led other purchasing one of the priests time bodyguard of King day, June, and they let him write a book about him. And then they printed it, in fact, for about 30,000. And then a distributed to a whole army soldiers. And then they demanded them to write their feelings about that book, kind of mandatory. And so that was one of them in relation to the public opinion. And there are lots of different ways Unknown Speaker 51:16 to, you know, Unknown Speaker 51:18 interfere. Americans. Oh, yeah, America, definitely. And America, preference is no pay with the handpicked boys now proposed and not care was invited by the United States. And last year, when he spoke at the National Press Building in Washington, DC, four of us went down there to join the demonstration by the Washington people there. And, of course, the United States always good for the dictator, rather than because today, John has nationalistic or she was supported by though you know, more low class, forehead complexion of the population. So United States always maintain close ties with a dictator. United States main concern is not the democracy but as long as the dictator, dictator blocks or conference, not the North Korea, national security case there is Unknown Speaker 52:26 concerns. Unknown Speaker 52:29 I'm just curious, Unknown Speaker 52:30 the relation between the student and the workers? Unknown Speaker 52:34 Are there a lot of students just like this? Unknown Speaker 52:37 Yeah, a lot. A lot. And I finished my college in 72. And at that time, one of my two close friends spent their summer vacation working in a factory for one month. And that was the beginning period of the students showing. Beginning that was in 72. And that's because in 1970, male worker whose name is Chung tail, he's dead himself on fire in front of the city hall in downtown, very crowded part of the soul. protesting against the law, labor conditions, because he was mainly since night, since he was 15. He has been the worker in a peace market, which produced the garments mainly garment factory, and he was working in, you know, he suffered all those backwards conditions. And he tried to appeal to the City Hall, you know, and he heard himself as a protest, saying that, why don't I Why don't I have any college friends? Because if I have only a friend in the college, then that would give more effects like just in the United States with that case, because she's mostly from the middle class, you know, that kids got more attention, right. Lisa Stein are trying Unknown Speaker 54:12 to tell him skin. Tyler, Unknown Speaker 54:15 I say that parallel middle class dominance here. So when he's, you know, burn himself, that gave a real shock to students, especially Christian students, because they realize that it's their responsibility to worry about the situation. And since 1970, he said, so from firing. Yeah, definitely. So that after that students, you know, tried to understand worker situation, they became the workers for a brief time, of course, they now go back to their middle class that we had. I mean, Unknown Speaker 54:55 that's the answer. Unknown Speaker 54:56 Yes. But there has been a lot of struggle among Um, middle class or elite class. And there has been since then, actually one of my close my husband's post friend married factory girl who is not college educated. So they have union, that story. And some college educated person really live life live at Unknown Speaker 55:26 least a percentage of college students or people? Unknown Speaker 55:33 Well, it's 1.2 million, I guess roughly, double the population of South Korea is 43 million. So the present number of students who are in college 1.2 million, but if you count how many percentage of the whole population maybe less than 5%? Because, you know, it's not a massive education. Unknown Speaker 56:04 Nobody knows, compared to comparable specifically. Unknown Speaker 56:08 I guess it's around Unknown Speaker 56:10 20%? Yeah. I'm not sure. But Unknown Speaker 56:20 that's one question. Is there any great movement in South Korea, for the country to be united? Unknown Speaker 56:29 Oh, yeah. Everybody, you know, and still one 10 million members are separated? Because, you know, yeah, the family family. And there's no, no communication whatsoever. You know, you even do not know whether your relatives in North Korea are alive or dead. And some people just set the date for their parents death, and then they have to serve. And it doesn't help trash. And the dictators in South Korea as well as North Korea, they use the unification reunification issue for their maintenance of their power. So it has been always used. Unknown Speaker 57:21 Though nothing is really done about Unknown Speaker 57:25 it Well, every time they accuse each other, but the people in North Korea and South Korea really wants to see the data indication. And in this chart, there have been some efforts recorded mainly by the Christian circle in the south, because the reunification issue is the monopoly of the government issue. No people, other than government cannot even talk about the education issue. No. It's easily labeled as labeled as a lot of EIM governing distribution, pastors that laid covenants. And that's why the Christian movement has been so strong because you can escape the communist label somewhat more easily, not always, somewhat more easily than the union busting it was that idea to organize, but it's always increased, always brutal, it's physical violence, and it does go to jail. But for students, you know, going to jail is just a course of training. It's the time when they really get to study and you know, of course, their health is deteriorating in Unknown Speaker 58:49 three credits for that. Unknown Speaker 58:52 They get a lot of credit for their life or for their movements. So we get no person goes to the prison one time, you are a one star. Unknown Speaker 59:04 Yeah, Mark Twain, Mark Twain. Unknown Speaker 59:08 Who is it? Okay to watch Wordsworth take them in and said, What are you doing there? Mark, he was in jail, was gonna get jail for the bleed, pay taxes award, and he didn't pay them. And we said, What do you mean, what am I doing in here, friend? What are you doing out there? My husband Unknown Speaker 59:31 James, possibly a more cheerful stories recovering from Vietnam. Unknown Speaker 59:35 Well, I'm going to start a very dreary note, which is it never ceases to amaze me how much the United States is involved in the political life of Asian countries and the political history and how far back this goes. Of course, Vietnam is a particularly extreme example of that. And indeed, it goes way, way back. And perhaps I could just sketch out have that background to, to the political picture of Vietnam US involvement and then go on to a very general history of the women's movement. The the Vietnamese Communist movement came to power in Vietnam in 1945. That was the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, established by Gucci Mane. People forget how long ago it was, then the Vietnamese established their state. In fact, it was the first anti colonial movement in all of Southeast Asia to achieve independence in in, in Southeast Asia. And soon afterwards, the French came back to Vietnam, assisted by both the British and ultimately by the United States and reestablish the colonial empire they had there for almost 100 years, there was a long war, which lasts until 1954, which was called the first resistance war by the the enemies or the Franco the admin war by Western historians. And that was resolved by the Geneva agreements in 1954, which established a sort of established a truce number one a military trials and then there were more provisions for their for the recruitment of the communist forces to the north, and the French forces to the south. And what happened, as a result of this as a result of subsequent us pressure, this recruitment turned into a partition of Vietnam, which was not provided for in the actual courts about which was a became an aspect of US policy. So it was the US, in fact, which created South Vietnam in the late 50s, and stalled a man by the name of ZDm, who became the president of the State of South Vietnam. So that's how you got North and South Vietnam. Meanwhile, the North, the Communist Party continued, the business of governing now occupies all the time. And so has had that state, you know, can teach contiguous territory from from just north of way, all the way up to the Chinese border, since 1954. To present Meanwhile, in the south, the with the growing cells involvement in the late 50s, and particularly in the early 60s, I'm just probably repeating history that's familiar to you. There was an emerging revolutionary movement, which was in part connected to the revolutions that existed there already during the French days, which ultimately was successful. And very much linked to the two the party in the north. And after a succession of dictatorships in in Saigon, not unlike some things we've been hearing for South Korea. The last one, which was headed by President Museveni, que te ie EU, was ousted by 1975. And the country was reunited and your comments control in April 1975. The United States had very accurately intervened from the late 50s, up until 1973, when they're just members of the Paris Peace Accords, which brought about us withdrawal of troops. The POWs which had been captured as a result of an air war over North Vietnam. were returned to us at that time. And then there was a policy of Vietnamization by President Nixon, as you remember, just trying to refresh your memory, which sought to be deviant the southern Vietnamese Army or the argument I take over the war hope was ultimately would be able to sustain the separate statements. Unknown Speaker 1:04:40 But without us airpower that US troops just wasn't gonna do that and that was fatal weakness to the regime and finally, flaps and 75. Now, the women's movement in the as part of the colony smoothen Vietnam, goes way back to the 1930s adds in China and other socialist countries, there's been an there has always been a women's movement from early on, and Vietnam was no exception to this, um, during the anti French movements during the 30s and then during the anti French war, during the late 40s and 50s, the women's movement in general was was very important. And it had significant leadership, which was also very important, important part of the overall communist movement. women's organizations were very important, particularly during the French war, mobilizing peasants in particular, because it was mainly a rural war. And women's movement was very strong. In 1954, the the oppositional activities, the women's movement then turned more towards Unknown Speaker 1:06:24 the problem Unknown Speaker 1:06:27 of helping women and, you know, facilitating their, their roles in the new in the new social state. For so that's sort of what I want to want to look at, at the moment. The the women's union in the women's movement during late 50s. In the end, the during the 60s was mainly focused on the developing anti US war. And this was known as the second National Resistance war. And it undertook a number of campaigns in order to mobilize women to fight. During the war, women in the north, were important in what was called the rear. And that was in service. And in service areas, some of them were mobilized into the regular army, but they were mainly the militia, that towards the end of the war, there were women in the north who were part of anti aircraft units. So these were American VISTA and more districts went to Vietnam to interview some of these units, those women were part of the regular army. There also, the weather was mentioned, was very important in aiding women and their families, the local level after the men left and went south. And were combatants in the Army because it was tremendous hardship at home because the women were responsible for not only taking care of the families, but they became responsible for production. And this, this, in fact, appear to be one of the the aspects of the contribution of women to the war effort was their tremendous the tremendous results that they were able to produce with regard to production, their numbers increased tremendously during the American war, in terms of their employment in the state sector, the end and they're their jobs, a lot of men are away, and also in the agricultural sector, they they were contributing the majority of the they were actually responsible for most of the production of the grain in the north. In fact, some estimates are that they were responsible for about 80% of the grain that was produced in the north. Now, it should be kept in mind that that one of the most important programs other state during this time was the collectivization of agriculture. And it has been argued that I've argued that the collectivization of agriculture which started in the 1960s and then intensifies the American era, intensified and contributed greatly to to the emancipation of women in the name them to get out of the home and to to contribute to large scale production. And it seemed, to me it seemed to me at least, that women's greatly increased participation in production during the 60s 60s seemed to bear out the the theory that Engels had written about long, long ago that in fact, women's liberation comes about as a result of their participation in social production. That they have an opportunity to, to get out his family that they aren't constrained by the patriarchal structures and attitudes that are often associated with, with, with being confined to family forms of production. Another aspect of collectivization, as it's been probably noticed that the, that women are usually paid, the system or remuneration is on work point basis in collective agriculture, and so therefore, you don't have a situation whereby a senior male of a family unit is dispersing funds or dispersing income as it were, for work performed, that as a worker, your salary, you're getting paid for, for your work based, presumably, on the same kind of criteria that everybody else is, is, is judged on. So the feeling was that social socialist structures of production, during the war, really aided in women's liberation in Vietnam, and the collectivization was was very much an important part of that. Now, this view is being somewhat revised. It's being questioned, like stet, women really were involved in collective production. And to what extent Collective Production really was all that important in overall production, during the war, a friend of mines to do some research in northern cooperatives, and has been suggesting that, in fact, during the war, that women were more involved in individual or family production, while the men were gone than they then they were in production. And that family production, that is the plots around the around the home, was really far more productive in terms of, you know, what was actually grown there. And so in some instances, perhaps five to six times more productive in terms of the income that that that a family could get from what was growing as compared to the work performed on the collective Unknown Speaker 1:13:13 fields. Unknown Speaker 1:13:15 And that, in fact, what really sustained production during the war years may have women's work on on these families cloth, I think this is an interesting idea, and it needs to be it it needs to. And I don't really have a a way of resolving at the moment, I thought it just is something I've been thinking about. I thought I would draw out because it it really is going to Unknown Speaker 1:13:50 be whether or not subsistence production, right, they sold it. I mean, when you it was mostly Unknown Speaker 1:13:57 it was mostly subsistence production, in terms of selling it would have been local, because there was not a very developed market. And all that Congress certainly was no nothing for it Unknown Speaker 1:14:12 would have been I'm sorry, go ahead. Unknown Speaker 1:14:14 Were they doing both? They were doing both collective both collective farming and family farming, right. Unknown Speaker 1:14:22 But then what is the measure of production? If your friend argues that, in fact, private production was more productive, and but if it's subsistence what's the measure? How do we know that it was more productive? What was this physical evidence was? Unknown Speaker 1:14:36 There is no there is no statistical is this impressionistic at this point, but what's interesting is that it's been almost a given that collective farming was more productive women were involved in that break heavily involved in that during the war. And what he said is on on this talking to Some people in some medical school, it's not possible to do a really comprehensive survey this, that women's participation in private plot production and in family farming may have been more significant. Unknown Speaker 1:15:18 The variable may not be collected profit, but presence or absence of male head of household. Yeah. I mean, at least that's if you're looking for variables. Yes, least one possibility is that women were more productive, whatever, whatever they were doing, Unknown Speaker 1:15:33 yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:15:34 because they were more self directed into labor, and they were giving less of it, Unknown Speaker 1:15:39 to, Unknown Speaker 1:15:40 and so on. I mean, we don't know that we got as good a hypothesis of that. Unknown Speaker 1:15:46 But one of the organizations Unknown Speaker 1:15:48 being one of the another aspect of this is that, since after 1975, Vietnam has been experimenting with certain types of economic reforms. And they add in China, Vietnam has, has been easing the process of collectivization, and has been been reintroducing certain forms of family farming. And what's important all this is women's relationship to, to book collective farming and, and to the private plot. It's not only intrinsically important, regardless of whether the men are there or not, as it happens in Vietnam, a lot of them still are not there, because they have been re mobilized after the American war. And they're there, they're now fighting a new war, a lot of those same men go on again. So women are again in the countryside, in stronger numbers, than they would be under a period where there were no work there. But what's interesting about it is that what I have found in talking to some of these women I interviewed in the 1984 is they're ambivalent, at least the ones that I have talked to about, about collective farming versus private, Carly, because private plot farming, since it's near the house, enables them to get there early in the morning. And at times, when they when they have when they have when they're able to work on the plot. And they're able to put much more intensive care into the private cloud. And therefore it is more productive, for instance, more income. Collective farming, on the other hand, does get them out of the house, and presumably provides helps to provide the kind of overall strength to the agricultural cooperatives. So that other things can happen such as collective childcare, which is very, which is very important. And presumably collective farming. By having a role in your cooperatives, you also have a role in the fears the village at large. So they say that, on the one hand, that family having an opportunity to increase to work more on the private plots, enables them to bring more income, but they're more tired, they do feel they're overworked. But in a situation where you don't have enough food, and where your economic, your your economic situation is desperate, you know, there, there isn't a whole lot of choice involved. And so there, there isn't really, there hasn't really been a resolution of this. I mean, people are very ambivalent, but I think that there are officials in the women's union, who don't like to see a kind of retrenchment back to more family farming and score. But the fact is that when, as socialist countries having introduced more family farming, it's produce more incentive for peasants to to produce and productivity rises. Anyway, that's the situation that we're in now there is even there's even more experimentation with further forms of the weaponization that hasn't gone as far as China, which Maryland is more familiar with. In Vietnam, I would say about half of that culture is still collectivized. Right And China has gone much, much worse. So I'd say that the Big Four Question of women's relationship to decision production still a very important one. And although Marxism has commented about this, as spoken to this question, for a long history of it still hasn't been entirely resolved. Unknown Speaker 1:20:24 And I think that as far as the whole question of socialist structures, and the relationship of women's liberation to these structures, is concerned, is a very highly complex problem. It's one that not only involves the question of the state, the form of the state, as we've heard earlier, but even when a country a an underdeveloped country has the revolution changes, its form of government becomes a socialist, or adopts a socialist program, that these problems that complexities don't just go away. And they're not only a cultural problems, cultural lags that are involved, which I really haven't talked about at all. But there are also economic and productive production, structural questions that need to be addressed. So I just wanted to do some questions. So Unknown Speaker 1:21:48 what can you say about the woman before? After the revolution? Is it better for example, and I, I'm asking this because some people feel that women's movement arbitrate a case with the crowd. When women actually participated in the revolution, Unknown Speaker 1:22:10 I think the opportunities for women's participation in social and political political life are particularly intense in revolutionary situation. Because in a time of national crisis, the whole question of the role of the family of women's bison family is just thrown up in there's nothing taken for granted that when you return back to a situation of normalcy, then it provides an opportunity for the conservative forces in society to research. And this happens, regardless of the type of government that is somehow it happens in socialist countries, socialist countries, and in Vietnam, the women's movement is still very strong. I don't want to give the impression that you know that it's not. But the there are a lot of militants there. But those forces, as conservative forces are in a position to think about what they're doing. And they're coming back. You know, there's no, no, no doubt about it. And so new ways have to be devised to define it. I wouldn't say just that women's movement has been betrayed. In Vietnam, the women's game is incredibly strong. I don't, I don't try to steal your membership, but it's millions. And the leadership has a 50 year history. It's one of the strongest organizations for women in the world, not not the strongest. And even though they may not share all my problems with Forex, and then it may not be available in the books that are there that are even published in Vietnam, it's clear that they they're struggling against a lot of a lot of these problems. There aren't any easy answers and get right now because it's in a and as you know, in a global international situation, which is very difficult. And the economic situation, very, very bad. And so for many women, it's just a question of survival. And that is really questions that the women's union is addressing is addressing very practical questions that have helped women at the grassroots level. There's the women's union ranch in almost every village and they dispense practical help to women. You know, aside from addressing some of the larger the larger so from political issues, but they become a member of the development agency, that the economic situation is so desperate. Yeah, is there any differences between the novice in terms of what you mentioned? Yeah, what's the other thing? Well, you have to keep in mind that during the American war, that the, the revolutionary movement in the south, which had a very, very strong women's component, the fact the major component, constantly was women's was largely destroyed. It was destroyed by two processes. One was the creation of a huge refugee population displacement of people by us. And secondly, by the Phoenix, so called Phoenix problem, which was undertaken by the CIA. And by nine t. After Tet of 68, when the CIA went after the NLF, with a vengeance by 1970, a lot of the the revolutionary networks in the South and the associations which support that network, the Women's Association of churches were broken up, they were disrupted in my field first. So when the country was reunited in 75, the people you know, we refuse went back to their, their family villages, and a lot of associations, re establish themselves, and then never northerners just came down. And they didn't that process, but they can't sort of the continuity with what's going on. Unknown Speaker 1:27:13 So there's that you have taken that into account and stuff I was, yeah, but I've heard different things. I've also heard that because the continuity was broken in the south. And because there's more fun against the women's movement is more vigorous. For as North, the company has been broken, and the pic yard or the latitudes are very entrenched, same old people, is it worth that there's a kind of feeling of stagnation that is, so I've heard, I've heard different things. It's a mixed, it's a very mixed picture, you think that could be said as the North and the South are still very, very different. And whatever you say, for the North simply can't be assumed. Because it's also things like the South that you also must take into account is that the South was very heavily urbanized. We've had a situation is something very similar to practically Yeah, and what happened from 54 to 75 was the creation of urban society in south. So you have a very large middle class, or we just had to adapt for those who have stayed as men led to which has had to adapt to a new, very difficult situation. And during the course of those years, the urban part of Southern Vietnam a shelter a lot from the war, so people that that were in the urban sector, labor inputs to which will go on and the continuation of the old adage is to figure out what you can make our family structures discontinued, really, to start with. So I recall recently, the weighing of the door for movement you who was the last president of South Vietnam, somebody brought this to mind. It was quite an affair. Yeah, I guess it was hurt that she was married in the late 60s, early 70s. And what it was, it was an old Confucian ceremony. They brought out the old ropes, the old the hats, they they used to wear. And what had happened was that the military class, military middle class in