Unknown Speaker 00:03 It's direct question me if we could really do some talking to each other as Unknown Speaker 00:08 well because some people come in with a level of expertise on how specific kinds of issues and that that would be good to be able to share that with each other since very much in a process of rebuilding women Unknown Speaker 00:51 but we'll hold on and wait unless people want to just start sharing before I get into which I enjoy helping people with their first conference Unknown Speaker 01:18 yeah unless people come in naked you can't do it Unknown Speaker 01:23 I'm Elizabeth I'm a sociologist at Columbia in the Division of urban planning Unknown Speaker 01:49 to find out graduating in May 2000 introducing ourselves among the brain from psychology Unknown Speaker 02:15 and psychology Unknown Speaker 02:19 so many cancers nutrition stuff from my first year working my name is valuable second year students and also I'm gonna pass around a petition petition Unknown Speaker 03:04 I'm Brandon Rothstein I believe sports team and I recently got Miami and your baby and imagine going back to school social psychology My name is Megan versus. Unknown Speaker 04:31 Evening, I'm an editor. Unknown Speaker 04:59 You All right yep in the back the bathroom introducing yourself you might want to come up further like dangerous people often come in and sit in the back we're just doing a little interview people just saying their name my name is would you like to share your name with us? Unknown Speaker 06:43 I'm gonna get started. And people will kind of just come in Unknown Speaker 06:50 Mr having a smaller one of these if you want to share with one of these instead of yeah, maybe Unknown Speaker 07:04 I'll walk in maybe you know I'm one of these for academics was the only exercise pacing back and forth that they teach. This is laid bare button system work and survival for black and Hispanic women. Unknown Speaker 07:25 And I think first of all, I want to say we've come a long way in approaching issues of women and color and their relationship to women's studies and color within that debate of is it race or is it sex. Now is a time when many black, Puerto Rican Mexican American, Native American Asian American women acknowledged the importance of sexism in their lives. But at the same time, they've made it real clear that they're not interested in analysis. That negates an important aspect of their experiences. And that is, you know, being women of color in the United States. A lot of feminist analysis would like to simply subsume racial oppression, to sex oppression, because sexual oppression is older, it's been documented to be more universal, with this kind of approach doesn't really deal with the concrete experiences of racial ethnic women. My label for this group is racial ethnic women because they're women who are members of a racial group that distinctive from the dominant society in the United States as well as a women who come out of specific ethnic groups. So unlike come up with steeped in their unlike white, ethnic or racial, ethnic women experience both ethnicity and embrace. And that's something that often gets forgotten about them. But that's like my turn. I really want to talk about employment work that's either paid when it's often even though it's often low wages and unpaid work in like slavery, in fact, you know, not not necessarily, I'm not gonna talk about housework, we're really paid or unpaid work that's done for owners of land or the means of production. The work that racial ethnic women have done and continue to do is central to their exploitation as women that the kind of work that they do also sets up situations which makes survival of the racial ethnic communities a very complicated process. This morning Cheryl jokes was talking about are you trying I'm gonna handle on that, that process. And that's the kind of thing I really want to very much address work and what I call cultural assaults. The models that we've tended to have for exploring women's experiences are really not appropriate, totally appropriate for looking at Black, Puerto Rican, and Mexican American Women's situations. It doesn't really enable us to deal with multiple barriers in the lives of women of color, who, first off, I mean, I want to kind of, you know, set up how you kind of do this without getting into those arguments about strategical priorities, etc. But I think that when we look at racial ethnic women, we have to do so within the context of racial oppression. But that's Unknown Speaker 11:01 the that's foremost, I can, I talked about racial oppression, and not racism, because people have forgotten what racism means. It just gets thrown around, we've become much more removed from really dealing with the historical context of racial oppression. People don't realize what it means to live in a society where boundaries are defined by other people, because you're black, brown, yellow, or red. There's an ideology. And that's basically what racism is an ideology that justifies the exclusion of people of color from certain spheres of life, and promotes the tolerance of this injustice. Within the larger society. There was a lot of talk in the 60s about institutional racism, but it seems to have died down quite a bit. But the other thing that seems to happen is that people don't realize that you're talking about people living in a society where every sphere of their life is influenced by their color. And it's not just talk about being discriminated against, so that you don't get this job, or that, you know, you don't get a certain quality of schooling. But something needs to be done to communicate the context within which people live. And that's why I talk about racial oppression. One thing that we have to remember about racial oppression is that it hurts that people grow up with, you know, at some point, and if people can talk about realizing that they are Puerto Rican, or black or Chicano, and that there's something about them that's, that's different from dominant culture, members of the society. And that's painful, as well as the fact that you then begin to live a life where you don't have the options that are open to people who are members of the dominant society is within this context that we have to understand the situations of racial ethnic women. Robert browner is a sociologist who was prominent in talking about ghetto rebellions, his reactions to internal colonial colonialism in the 60s. I don't know where my voice work, but browner developed a scheme for differentiating between what he called colonized immigrants or colonized minorities, which I call racial, ethnic, and immigrant minorities, which are white ethnics. And there are three spheres of experience where these groups differ. I mean, basically, they've been floating around these, these notions that why don't blacks do what every other ethnicity has done? Why don't Chicanos etc. and bladder gives us three specific spheres to look at where there are differences. First of all, race racial ethnic peoples entered the United States in very different ways, then coming in different ways than white ethnics. Their entrance was much more involuntary as opposed to voluntary. This is really clear in terms of slavery in terms of, you know, living in a land that gets transferred from one nation to another, you have nothing to do about the process of living in a country that the back and get freedom that the United States saves you and therefore you then become colonized in that way. So that there there are differences in terms of how people enter. Building on browner, there's also different flights because Different places that people experienced that citizen, even if we can't specifically date differences. As soon as groups arrive, as soon as the first Africans came in United States in 1619, no can't say that they're gonna be distinctive life, distinctive futures. But clearly, by the 19th century, we have established a racist ideology that justifies either secondary citizenship, or the lack of citizenship rights for racial ethnic peoples. Rather than being seen as participants in American destiny, these populations whose labor was exploited to make that destiny a reality, did not receive the kind of rewards that were going to be open to white ethnics. They did not have citizenship rights, they did not have entitlements. This becomes clear in terms of looking at Afro Americans who were slaves, therefore, they were profiting. Unknown Speaker 16:02 And that's something about you have to see them as workers. But you still also have to see them as capital that the show just talked about. After emancipation, they continue to be denied rights. Chinese and Japanese immigrants were barred from ever becoming citizens. And therefore, they were never constituency for any political movement, because they would never vote. Mexican Americans whose land was they used to be in Mexico that became united states were treated as secondary citizens. And even the state of Arizona Territory that for a long time was populated by you know how to have a certain population kind of state. Arizona had that population, but it was mostly his, you know, Puerto Rico, mostly Mexican, American and Indians. And it wasn't until a sufficient number of white people live there, that it really became a state so that there was that becomes really clear. So that we get this precarious history that people have about being citizens or US you get things like, you get citizenship that's granted under very questionable motives. The people of Puerto Rico were granted US citizenship in 1917, just in time to induct 20,000 men into the armed forces, you know, and Puerto Ricans have continued to fight in the rules, you know, and so they were clearly seen as labor. Whether it means paid employment, law enforcement, and exploited for that reason, so that this question will treatment and citizenship is something that plagues all these racial ethnic groups. The second area of differentiation for bladder is what happens to people in the labor market rather than being what was called free labor, meaning that you could move freely from one job to another and therefore also had a range of job options open to you. Ratio, I think people have either been forced labor or have suffered very severe restrictions on the type of work they could do. They were consistently used as low wage labor force. Often participating in pre capitalist ventures, and then they get forced out of the market when jobs become much more profitable before they become the change in terms of the sphere of the economic sector that there is. The use of African American slaves to develop and to sustain an agriculture in the south is obvious. Also, people know about the situation of Chinese immigrants who worked on the railroad, building the railroads and worked in the mines, and did some of the toughest and the most dangerous jobs. But once the tracks were laid from, you know, sea to shining sea, then people were basically dismissed and faced incredible restrictions, and harassments. Most of them were forced to seek refuge in ghettos that are euphemistically called Chinatown's and literally faced being beaten up when they left those kinds of communities. Before 1920, Mexican Americans were often engaged in industrial work as well as agricultural work. This was a history many people don't really know very much about. They worked on building the railroads as well. Many people had worked on building railroads in Mexico, and did the same kind of work in the United States. They also work in lumber and oil and in mining. In fact, they were responsible for doing the initial labor to open up the silver and copper mines in Arizona and New Mexico. And then once these became profitable ventures they get and they could recruit Anglos to do this kind before they get pushed out of the more skilled jobs and are only left to do, the more lower wage jobs that were there so that racial ethnic people have been instrumental in developing the infrastructure and industry of most of this country. Once these industries are developed, and jobs were less dangerous, and more renumerated white workers get recruited and race, racial ethnic space, severe restrictions, they will use as a reserve labor force. That is they were called in a strikebreakers if there was ever any labor problems. And often the only steady employment they could find was in service work. And or at times, they could do work as unskilled labor. It's important to recognize the exploited the exploitation of racial ethnic peoples work is key to their oppression. Unknown Speaker 20:59 But what this sets up then is tremendous repercussions for the community. First of all, people work for either subsistence or no wages, and then have to develop lives with those resources is very, very limited resource. And this is, this enters into the discussion of the third area of differentiation for blonar. And that is the degree to which groups are subject to cultural assaults. To quote lanner he says, the labor systems through which people of color became Americans tended to destroy or weaken their cultures and communal ties, regrouping and new institutional forms developed, but they developed in situations of extremely limited possibilities to transplant transformation of group life, that is central to the colonial cultural dynamics took place most completely on the plantation. It is critical to take this issue of cultural assault seriously. Because it's due to these attacks that racial ethnic cultures have developed in ways that are very different from the way they would have developed if they were unhampered. Communities would draw upon their cultural repertoire and the survival strategies that they would choose from within a very limited range. And often the means to achieve certain ends had serious consequences for their own communities. I'm not talking about sexism within subcultures, deforms the patriarchy takes within specific subcultures. But this is an area that also has to be seen as within the context of racial oppression. Deeply at the point, this all has to be seen within the context of racial oppression. Any study of the work situations of racial ethnic women has gone to be integrated into a real clear conception of racial oppression. Most Unfortunately, most of the work on racial oppression focuses on situations of men. Now, this is not a reason to abandon that perspective. But it gives, we need to keep that perspective, be flexible in terms of dealing with it, and looking at class and gender differences within it. But it gives you some stuff to work with. And that's, and that's, you know, and it doesn't have to be done in this in in ranking in terms of a hierarchical arrangement, but really to look at gender class. Within that context. Now, research is often present. And many people are familiar with certain statistical facts about racial ethnic women, for example, there's plenty of data testifying that black women earn less than black men than white men. And then white women, we can look at the rankings and see the Puerto Rican and Mexican American women do less well in the labor market than other Hispanic women, particularly Cuban didn't enter the labor market as well as an educational attainment. People might be familiar with the decline in the labor and the labor force participation rates of Puerto Rican women, especially in the New York metropolitan area. While the numbers according to women are welfare is increasing, there are chairs. Unknown Speaker 24:30 And also people might be familiar with a historically high labor force participation rate. That show just talked about 100%, which has been going down historically, and it's an interesting way to kind of look at it and it's only been within the last 10 years that the labor force participation rates of black and white women are getting closer. But what lies behind the figures it's harder to get a handle on you know what In the work that racial ethnic women have been doing and how it interlocks with the cultural assaults of their own communities. This happens partly because work is seen as an isolated activity. And this has historically been the case, particularly since the focus it has been on men and their work. And that data is being seen as separate from everything else, just public and private sphere stuff. Or else you get models that say that whether or not women work are determined by level of educational attainment, marital status, and the number of children that they have. And within these models, there's no place for economic needs. And there's certainly no discussion about racial barriers that create job options for some women and limit them. For others. I think the best way to proceed is to look at specifically his specific historical situations, and to investigate, you know, what goes on within them. Angela Davis has work on the role of black women in the community of slaves. This is an example of the kind of analysis that can be done and show to her talked about that a little this morning, it's an excellent article for people to find. And the New England Free Press used to reprint it if you couldn't find that issue in a black scholar that it was in. But besides, you know, black women's work was essential for both the development of agriculture in the south, and to do the hard and heavy housework that was associated with that era. Besides, well, one way in which black men and women differ is that black women were sexually exploited in slavery. But besides that, they and then equal in in the work that they did, but at Davis talks about, you know, staying alive and continuing a community was a form of resistance and black women were very much involved in that. Davis's analysis could only be strengthened by more recent historical work that has delved more deeply into slaveholders so that you would see the kinds of things that even more ways to black people working the slaves were involved in resistance and community survival. You know, the nature and structure of religion, because they're important, there's more data about the survival of African cultural and art forms, more detail and family attachment, as well as some detail on side activities that actually aided physical survival, like gardens, raising animals, having side businesses and things going on. What they all these activities share is that they get carved out of a situation in which people have very few options. And that that's, I mean, it's interesting because most people don't realize that people who are different from them have different options, like assume that this is the land of opportunity. And that that's something that you have to get a lot of information and be made very sensitive to. And black women were involved in working within these very limited parameters for establishing a life and continuous otherwise, we know less about other people. And also, one of the other things to kind of really be sensitive to is that within the context of racial oppression, the work that men do, and women too, can be the same income can be different. One very clear example of the differences is looking at Chinese immigrants. No, before 20th century, wasn't it after the Chinese Exclusion Act. But the immigration of the Chinese led to very distinctive roles for men and women, particularly because if you look at San Francisco in 1880, of the 75,000, Chinese who were there 71,000 women, you know, so that you had to basically Sojourner population and the role of women Unknown Speaker 29:12 was very different women were used as prostitutes. And those women who were not prostitutes were like, basically hidden in the hand. Because women are rare, and they were very highly valuable property. But that that was important to kind of retaining this Sojourner population system, the laws that said the Chinese did not marry white people. So that you basically were working in eliminating this is called genocide. Looking at Mexican Americans who were either established in the United States with the concessions, Mexican concession of 1848, or came in they tended to come as families And this is you know, I'd like to hear more about this because figuring out the particulars is difficult since there is very little research and it tends not to specify different roles for men and women. When I can piece together about the industrial work that Chicanos did, in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, building the railroad working, wonder, can soil work in the light. When people were involved in these early pre capitalist phases, they traveled his family and the women were given the task of ensuring the survival of the family in the harshest conditions. Work setting for virtually small company towns, where people were paid low wages, and then they were dependent upon an overpriced company store. Also in the settings, like if there were unattached men, women were engaged in working in boarding houses, cooking meals, doing domestic work. and things along those lines. If you look at other industrial settings, where they were canneries, you know, Mexican American women are engaged in in this kind of work. And it's important to kind of remember that these are early capitalist ventures so that they are you know, like shoestring operations where you work the workers as hard as you can, so that you can maximize profit and then sell the company has somebody else, make your money and go back and spin retire some civilized place. But Mexican Americans were also very much in women with an apostle very much engaged in domestic work. When we look at the agricultural work, this is a place where women has three tasks, housework childbearing, and rearing and feel. The lack of detail data makes doing this really difficult. But in moving the mountains by Ellen cachora. There's a very good descriptions by Jesse Lopez Dela Cruz about agricultural work. And, and also looking at her life, you begin to see a lot of what the reality is she was born in 1919. And she actually began working in the fields when she was a child. This is an area where child labor was quite common until the Streisand contracts and it and you can see how it really lags behind the abolition of child labor and other spheres of the society. And the other thing is that it also points up some rural urban differences. That becomes important. The nature of migrant life made the survival of the community very Unknown Speaker 32:35 precarious. Unknown Speaker 32:38 You can post statistics like the average lifespan is 49 years old. For adults, and that is very, very tremendous impact. But when you look at some details from Jessie Wilkinson accusers life, you begin to see how the degree to which people live on the margin. Her sister who's three years old, died in a fire when she was 10. Her mother died of cancer when she was 11. And that's the same year that her grandfather died. And then her grandmother, her sister and uncles, began living as migratory farmworkers. She married and continue to to work to do farm work with her husband. She describes a typical day of foreign workers in the 1940s. She would get up and start her day at 5am getting up to cook breakfast for the family. The day she talks about it in May was very hot, and family, the family would all start working at 630 in the morning, and they work for four or five hours. And then they would take a break, you know, eat rest until 330 In the afternoon, when it has cooled off enough for people to be outside. And then she says we would go back and work until we couldn't see. Then we'd get home and rest visit talk. Then I clean up the kitchen. I was doing housework, working out in the field and taking care of the kids. This is worked under such conditions of work, experiencing both the exploitation of their labor and the severe living arrangements, being able to survive in the form of resistance. Yes, there's also a long history of labor struggles and solid unions of Mexican Americans and Mexican immigrants, which the Texas Rangers and other regional groups were organized to suppress and they did so with real brute force, lots of killings, etc. But what we get here is the raw face capitalism, coupled with a racist ideology that enables employers to mask the fact that they're dealing with human beings. In a time when a family wage is being established, little thought is given to how racial ethnic families were to sustain themselves. On you really see the dehumanizing impact of racism on this community. And I think that this has got to be dealt with. You get an example of this from looking at events in Arizona in 1920s. Although they weren't Not totally able to demonstrate that there was a labor shortage, cotton growers in Arizona petitioned immigration authorities to get a special waiver of the Immigration Act to import Mexicans potential as temporary workers to pick the crops at the Salt River cotton Valley. This ploy had been used quite successfully in the years before, but in 1920, and actually enabled the growers to save $2.8 million by using cheap, imported labor. The Mexicans would travel with their families and live in these terrible housing and will pay very low wages for efforts to organize for better conditions were hampered by the growers and by the basically effectiveness of the state authorities. At the end of the season, this was a pretty bad year and the growers were only were not able to sell their crops for very much money, so that they suffered a real loss, therefore saving all this money helped out but their response then was just basically cut off the workers, but we did not pay them and left them stranded. In the winter of 1921. There were newspapers reporting a 15 to 20,000 Mexican workers in their families were stranded in the Salt River common ground was no one taking action to provide for their welfare or their return to Mexico. Eventually, the state has a federal bath and Mexican gym, okay. Within the conditions of intense racial oppression, Mexican women had to carve out a line. And it's within this context that people have to hold on to their culture. And it's within this context of gender roles. And class differences emerge. to neglect racial oppression, that means going to get central elements of the experiences of people of color. White workers are fighting different struggles in a secure wage to make an attempt to support a family and follow a domestic code that had been established for middle class families and was being Unknown Speaker 37:03 widened to poor working class families. Such concepts have very little relevance for racial ethnic peoples. Because the men have been exempted from family wage systems, they've not been able to gain access to industrial jobs. And therefore they were never in a position to demand that women have been in the women's wages for paid employment. We're not supplements to the family, they were essential for survival. Employers do not pay racial ethnic women less because they see their earnings as supplemental to the family. Research indicates that earnings are the part of racial ethnic when women contribute larger, a larger percentage of the family and close to one. And, you know, we're really dealing, we're not simply dealing with patriarchy, and the six servers of women in the home, but the dehumanizing impact of racial oppression to sustain a larger, exploitive labor system. And these are the elements that have got to be in any analysis of women and their work. Question I think women work because the exploitation continues in urban settings. Even though the specific forms of oppression may change. In terms of exploitative work and the kind of impact on the family. The black population became increasingly urban around the world one, their Mexican American populations had been around for decades, but in their percentages, they've kind of lagged behind blacks in terms of still being a large percentage of people living in rural areas. And the Puerto Rico population on the mainland has been especially ergonomics people settled in urban centers. In urban areas, black and Hispanic women have been denied access to jobs. They're seen as a reserve labor force, and they're able to move into jobs which white women have left for better opportunities, and they therefore open up to them. This is true very much for domestic work, which was a major occupation of women working outside of agriculture in 1870, and teenage, as clerical work increased with industrial development, and certain occupations became feminized, white, middle class and working class women moved into these jobs is that left domestic work to recent immigrants who soon also move down, and two women call it the racial barriers to occupations is responsible for bifurcated occupational distribution among black women. In 1910, most black women were either farm laborers or domestic private household workers. As their numbers in agriculture diminished. They found employment, their numbers in domestic work, increase so 9040 of women black women leaving four 60% are in domestic work, while black women also found employment and service work, and in factories and as professionals. The limitations on clerical and sales jobs, led black women to seek education Who likes to escape the kitchen. And therefore we become teachers, nurses, social workers, librarians, for the black community and the black community institutions they're developing, both in the South and in the north. It's only during the Civil Rights and Black Power areas that are numbers of increasing clerical and sales jobs. These jobs, which have typically been thought of as female occupations, but they've really been wiped out. But the patient is important to see that racial discrimination is a basic factor in influencing this trend. Since people have had a limited number of options to choose from, often it's assumed that it's motivation. As opposed to, you know, it'd be very clear strategy to deal with discrimination in the labor market. This is similar for Hispanics, but they lag considerably behind black woman for educational attainment, particularly in a Southwest where they basically refuse to deal with Spanish speaking population education in the schools for a long time. But it's ridiculous just to, to, to, to not recognize the historical development that the black professional women as a population. And it's it's tied to racial oppression. The exploitive work in urban setting is part of a far more sophisticated and profound series of assaults on family. First, different job opportunities for men and women impacted on gender roles. As racial ethnic women's work was more plentiful in urban areas domestic work, factory service work, this was due to the changing shape of the Oregon economy, particularly post World War Two where there's been increases in job options through outside of heavy industry, have secure unionized jobs for racial ethnic men are often less stable, and also not necessarily high wage jobs unless they could gain interest in unionized jobs or they to get Unknown Speaker 42:00 educated and, and move into professional schools. The negative impact on the black family the division of labor and the family is well vividly described elsewhere, you're talking about the differences in terms of the options. And this is a continuous. This involves a continuous struggle on the part of racial ethnic peoples to combat the messages of proper gender roles in the dominant culture. And as shown with his timing, you get this very clear Unknown Speaker 42:28 divisiveness on the part of the culture in the virus communities. Perhaps domestic work was often the most stable employment for people. But we have to remember that this is left was left out of minimum wage laws until very recently, so that you have women being able to work all the time, but working for very low wages, and it's on these incomes either being supplemented to a man's income or alone that people have been able to raise families. There are tremendous costs to that kind of experience. But I want to kind of talk about another kind of work that people do. Because as people move out of private household worker, one assumes that other occupational categories are included improvements. And this is particularly true for that great occupational counterpart category of operators. In 1977, one quarter of the Hispanic women in the labor force were operators that if they did unskilled or semi skilled back to the work, this compares with about 11% of all women equal in the market, and the figure is actually really higher for Mexican Americans and Puerto Rico to get pulled down by Cubans. Most of the Puerto Rican operative in New York City or in the garment industry. Many were recruited particularly during World War One and the Korean War, and the men went off to the army recruiter to come into the workout and work during the labor shortage. Now, these operative jobs are nowhere at all like the steel, automotive, things like that Unknown Speaker 44:09 even though the carrier Unknown Speaker 44:13 has a connotation, low wages or secure the fact that low wages at the National garment workers union security is well known. But little is known about the actual conditions of war for women, particularly those with a language barrier. In a recent interview with a woman whose mother was employed in the garment industry for some other research that I'm doing the subject who was a call Maria vividly recalled growing up like 50s and early 60s and listening to her mother talk about her work. Maria's mother worked in a factory and East home. Since many women with language problems don't go very far for communities seek jobs. This is something we find also in Chinatown among Chinese immigrants who work in the garment industry in Chinatown. Maria's mother would talk about the horrible things issues in the factory, the dirt, the insensitive boss, who all the workers feel feared. Maria's mother was afraid to be late to work, afraid to to refuse overtime, and basically complied with the wishes of the boss because she very much hated the job. Maria was raised on stories about the accidents and illnesses are the factory, Unknown Speaker 45:19 in effect a lot of work on the connection, you know what it is, you know, for people to work from, Unknown Speaker 45:32 what it means for black women to work as domestic than race downward to relate basically to a solid middle class, upper middle class family and to be working class people themselves. Because I think there are a lot of class issues that are involved there. But there are a couple of other things that you have to deal with that population of domestic women, black women who work at significant are older. You're dealing with some real age differences that come into play. But I think you know, I mean, I'm interested in hearing what other people have to say about it, but because Unknown Speaker 46:11 of vibration Unknown Speaker 46:15 that people have for our analysis, Unknown Speaker 46:20 yeah. But at the same rapid at the same time, I think you have to deal with the fact to which to how many people's that experience. You know, which become I mean, when you say that that's the experience that white women have had, that they that their contact with was the limits more than I think, I mean, I think it's much more important to just deal with the issue of the isolation, that we reach a point where there is very, very little contact, and not just that there's context with black women as domestic, you know, particularly when you look at the urban world, the suburban urban spring, you know, and that the typical family in the 50s and the 60s that many people were raised in particularly white middle class people was not black women as a servant, but mothers at home doing all the housework. But I mean, I'm interested in hearing, you know, other people what other people have to say, and, you know, for me that isolation is much more the real separation is much more of an issue, where you have white people who have not dealt with black as opposed to having only dealt with them I suppose. Yeah, what is that? Yeah. Yeah. It's like being done or read. Yeah, write Unknown Speaker 47:53 down four or five Unknown Speaker 48:00 shared experience Unknown Speaker 48:02 that what, what we might have Unknown Speaker 48:07 died out of a working class or for patterns that black lives matter. Unknown Speaker 48:32 is a type of isolation, because because of a flattening working for white women, it's very solid, because I am part of a black leather being made for a lot of ps4 like Linux. And I can literally remember feeling fearful about going into the hands of when my mother worked, because she always came home and, you know, idolized his wife, you know, how is it she went, because the economic differences, and to this day, I mean, I have difficulty relating to white women, and I'm quite sure they have to calculate to the to. So you know, but it derives in some heart, from that feeling of extreme difference within in the hands of put on an act to them to make them think that I was not as cool, you know, as my mother would imply. So, you know, definitely has an effect. My mother still sometimes does work, who likes to smell. So Unknown Speaker 49:34 I think one of the things and that's why I chose the substation because she really deals with those issues. But you have to, I mean, this is 1981. Right? And it's been since 1960s. The numbers of black women domesticate has just really gone down, as we get a lot of different kinds of changes, as well as there'll be up presets for different diseases for people. She gets much more than Unknown Speaker 50:09 that. One of the things I think that perpetually said no, I mean, I have white skin, the years I've had to deal with women that they dealt with. But it gets perpetuated about not so much being domestic individual families, but the net, the growing labor force in the service industry, the health workers, health workers, you know, the ones who Unknown Speaker 50:46 do that, Unknown Speaker 50:48 you know, the hands on, so become effective. Unknown Speaker 50:54 And then, one of the things I've just noticed, one of the things that continually happens with black women is that you get one stereotype and you've got to replace it with another one, you know, or another one. And I think that just to kind of really be open to a tremendous diversity, because I think that the kind of thing that Cheryl raised about people being afraid, is also an issue. You know, terms of like, because we've had, in the early days of women's scholarship that this kind of black women didn't need with ration, they were already liberated, they will already stupid, assuming a very positive and assertive stance, not recognizing the roots of that stance, and therefore not seeing, again, not seeing, but seeing a different stereotype. And that, I mean, I think that kind of maybe the main thing that people have to do, if I couldn't see them, as opposed to seeing some image of them, whatever, then, you know, I'm really exploring the kind of very detailed routes of like getting talking about you. The other thing that happens is that a lot of stuff gets attributed to race. Whereas also, what you're talking about is expressiveness. A tremendous, you know, what we talked about, you know, that gets not dealt with, because people don't really know how to talk about race, and gender. And that's the kind of the kind of direction you will have to move into. But that, you know, a lot of, you know, people who are not black, when they deal with upper middle class, people are also doing the same kinds of things and having to work to present themselves Unknown Speaker 52:38 as if they know what's going on here. And see if they are comfortable in this setting. I mean, that's because that's part of the class in this country. I mean, I studied, Unknown Speaker 52:52 that is an issue for all women. And for all people who, you know, who moved from one, center to another, because middle class people define situations. They define how you be here. And you've got to figure that out. And that that's a very difficult process that goes across groups. of people of different right. So that we're really talking about a lot of concepts. My mother did not work as a domestic more than my grandmother. But when I go into his homes, I am also intimidated. When I used to think that this was my schooling experience, it'd be serious. And people would know me a long time and then discovered that I had this false sense of humor, but my feeling was that the reason why people were serious, that's how you work around them. And I came to see that that's also a real class. You know, moving past addition. So I really want you know, people have to continually look and ask questions, they will be very critical. And instead of looking for the package, the vision, they're like this, no, that Unknown Speaker 54:17 to building a virus. I mean, even if isolation is a key issue, I think that the issue of how black and Hispanic women working as this is a huge, especially in relation to what some of the talks about the importance of at this point in history building alliances with the mainstream feminist movement. Really knighted for what does that mean? Because in fact for some white middle class, working women, to the way that they are able to pay the workforce and Buy employees, black women to take care of your own family particularly. And so I think that that is in a way, you know, going to become more of an issue if you're talking about kind of politics. And, you know, and I think it is, I think it's a very complicated issue. And I think that, you know, I mean, I don't know, you know, I don't know, what I'm saying, I don't have any real insight into what it all means. But, you know, I think as far as you know, I say, my neighborhood, I live in my daughter's nursery school, I see a lot of black women and Hispanic women bringing life into the nursery. And I think, you know, this may be in, you know, a particular, you know, urban area, maybe it's different, you know, in the Midwest, I don't know. And I think it's certainly a real factor. And I think that it does create a lot of, you know, questions about how black and white people work together and Sanders movement is gonna have to be I think, that'd be more no coalition and more, you know, not just small, socialist feminists are bad. I mean, it's like, Unknown Speaker 56:09 one of the things that has to happen is for people to look at alternatives beyond persecution. Unknown Speaker 56:21 And I don't think anything. One form of collective solutions are, you know, are white that I mean, that wouldn't be the model apartment, there isn't daycare, if there aren't community, you know, organizations that are really providing for, you know, childcare. That's definitely especially dismantled. Unknown Speaker 56:47 So the class differences become even more sharp, they also hide racial differences. Unknown Speaker 56:57 Also, as work become more and more oppressive, more and more people, it becomes more of an issue. Because it becomes visible there day problems become so overwhelming. And how do you deal with that? So. So let's talk about Unknown Speaker 57:29 finding you as individual black, and then a woman and that was a good promotion, because it was a corporate structure. Because she had the chance to write to hire the Norwegian woman who have worked with she's been so pressured for her business, as a woman that she is looking over all boundaries and racial issues to work out in Washington, Whitehorse. And I still am I slept, and that is unfortunate. Women are looking at 1981 Then it was still, you know, have that in their mind that, you know, I'm a lover as well, I have to go for myself. And if no one is being pushed on me, I know, I have to learn how to fight the whole battle. And I find that very true. Without without 98 What is the Doggy Dog? And the men are they don't realize that the men are the ones who are laughing Unknown Speaker 58:44 out there and a couple and then you don't want to hire someone who's subservient. But as long as she's black, and she's white, just put it there proposal man after man that and that's Unknown Speaker 58:59 it's interesting because of industry, the time when the revival of Unknown Speaker 59:05 individuals Unknown Speaker 59:07 and people are seeking their niche to kind of bury themselves in wait until it's over. And that's not at all possible. And you see this in every circle. That's what me I don't know exactly what happened when Bernice Regan talk, how I got it when she talked at Barnet, about how we don't know how to talk. That's one of the kinds of the success of selective decentralization in urban areas is moving people away from each other. And so that can be the kind of stuff that you get to even less contact that you bring Unknown Speaker 59:59 in Babies parents, when Unknown Speaker 1:00:00 people's neighborhoods were adjacent, they got out of their car, they would have been on the subway or drive to the privatization. But that's the first step, you have to get past those, you know, being able to see your own your own situation. And I say this, because I've done a lot of talking about black women, and had people throw back at me with a series of questions, it's just really very clear that they don't understand that black women don't have the options, that white women. And I've seen this as a black professional myself, where my actions get interpreted as if I'm a white woman, and people have no idea what my, what my motivations are. And you only find that out by talking with people. And the more situations when that happens, what develops, the people can find what those collective solutions are. And we'll have to move into situations like, you know, heterogeneous childcare centers, not fancy nursing schools where you have the kids have to test to get going down, down the spectrum and state support a daycare being abolished. I mean, those who call I mean, I think that that is these are the kinds of institutions that do have to be revived, instead of people with with the money doing what they can do, and that is getting closer to these private nursery schools, and letting everybody you know, go to the south. We don't we why should we give up those goals? Just because that's it, that's a serious problem. Oh, I'm sorry Unknown Speaker 1:02:14 about this. And I wrote my questions. And session, that results in a nice summary. But if you look at the aggregate data now, especially we're moving over Unknown Speaker 1:02:40 to the corporate sector, in which you. Unknown Speaker 1:02:55 Couple of things, one, you know, you have to recognize that the black might be declining as a percent of black women employed outside of agriculture, but that there really is an increase in absolute numbers of black professionals. But the other thing is that when you get that professional, you know, professional, technical can be workers, teachers, nurses, social workers, black professional women are not the doctors. That's a small group. But the other thing is that you had in you just tremendous changes in educational attainment and what people did with it, it's like you, if you finished the 10th grade, you will teach school. And as clerical and sales and managerial positions become open to glasses, when you get I mean, you get a wider distribution. And you have to look at what those professional kind of jobs so that there really has been no, but relative to the other issues presented in the labor market. But I think what we're getting is overall limit limit, increasing limitations on what is regarded. We can see that with this method, you know, just the financial aid stuff, Social Security Unknown Speaker 1:04:20 for Unknown Speaker 1:04:22 college students, etc. From the vaccine, I mean, I think that things are all women Unknown Speaker 1:04:32 and particularly emotional people. And does that mean that Unknown Speaker 1:04:40 you have to remember, you know, and everything you do, and you've got to be historical, you've got to look at Sputnik. You know, Russia's gonna surpass us, you know, throwing lots of money for higher education, making it really possible for people from working class backgrounds, you know, to go to college because they needed for jobs as well as improving the teaching of science etc. And that that's been changed during office Unknown Speaker 1:05:10 and we no longer able Unknown Speaker 1:05:11 as this nation is no longer able to rip off any information and therefore pay more for every resource to that I think that there are a lot of issues Unknown Speaker 1:05:38 it's actually really interesting Unknown Speaker 1:05:47 how white Unknown Speaker 1:05:49 upper middle class black, we find their backside as a sign there are strategies for providing sessions in person black working class with with very fine inequities a big dilemma within 1000 women with different aspirations for their rights in general. As a class make the right. To open up with Mrs. matriarch, which Unknown Speaker 1:06:39 you know, who asked Unknown Speaker 1:06:43 if Black Women shouldn't be a part of studies, before Black women and black women you know dominated and political movement in the 60s was saying that, that fight racism, black women have to take a backseat characteristic of programmatic about movement Unknown Speaker 1:07:09 that I don't think people really grappled with Unknown Speaker 1:07:14 how sexism can be within the black community within Unknown Speaker 1:07:21 the working class. Unknown Speaker 1:07:25 I mean, it's interesting, as I said before, I'm not talking here. But when you look at the forms of patriarchy, in some communities that black men could have lived in society. And let's say black men much more, particularly in rural areas, your culture, because of the culture, the cost, and so forth. If you look at black men, and they've been living in a society where their gender roles are defined by the dominant culture, I mean, there's certain kinds of things that you have to do to be a man, the same way that black women have been deviant in terms of not doing the things you're supposed to do as a woman feel quite healthy that black men have also been experiencing. So that when you look at the kind of the development in the 60s, you know, and also I mean, social spine, just horrible, you can go back and look at this class and cast in southern Canada. He basically lies out there that black women do not do as poorly in segregated towns as black. I mean, that the social sciences played a tremendous role in perpetuating this myth that, you know, the system has not hurt black women as much as it is. And it's drawn, I mean, that that's a cultural thing. I mean, that is it, and as you grow it and read it in the magazines and all the time. And that's why we wonder because they basically have lost control of their own abilities to define the situation. You know, so it is coming out of that, that you get this tremendous patriarchal crap, and civilized and black power for nationals is that we're looking at going back to the same type of groups. So that's, I think that's kind of enough to accomplish Unknown Speaker 1:09:42 the same thing with achievement. Unknown Speaker 1:09:44 I mean, it is not inherent to people's focus, because that has got to be seen within the comfort zone and that's how you deal with that Unknown Speaker 1:09:55 as opposed to Unknown Speaker 1:09:58 dealing with it in some more isolated, but it has to be done. And there's a continual battle in figuring out an analysis and getting it to keep up. Because the media is saying some very different things. And you're getting this revival because the quality in terms of explaining why people still have not made it. And the data is coming all Unknown Speaker 1:10:28 the media through television, Unknown Speaker 1:10:31 and anybody who has something different to say, has a lot more trouble getting a different getting access to. So one is Unknown Speaker 1:10:47 put together. So as you're talking Unknown Speaker 1:10:50 to that person, how, Unknown Speaker 1:10:53 and that is that Unknown Speaker 1:10:55 not the man on the cut wants to do Unknown Speaker 1:11:00 the work politically, because you Unknown Speaker 1:11:02 feel well, you know, ideal sexual stereotypes are even more on the blackboard in order to undercut willingness Unknown Speaker 1:11:13 to get involved in political work. Unknown Speaker 1:11:15 I have a funny situation in my community in Brooklyn where I work in Crown Heights, and I'm African teaches us that Unknown Speaker 1:11:23 black United Unknown Speaker 1:11:26 is one of the more active one of the very few really active community groups, and they are horribly sexist. And in my desire to work with the black united front, because they can be a progressive forces School, which is predominantly black and has predominantly white staff. And yet, I want to build alliances that will include the school at a loss that had a goal about breaking into this legal white woman breaking into building an alliance essentially, which is across race lines, and of course, sex lines. For a greater social good, which in this case, isn't necessarily feminist, but it has to do with the progressive attitude toward the education of these kids, and my own work environment. And this, this is like such a complicated dilemma that I've been facing trying to approach these people and totally dumbfounded on how to go about doing it. Unknown Speaker 1:12:28 Am I going to do what do you mean, these are the kinds of really limited options but it's clear that you have an answer, Unknown Speaker 1:12:38 she's got an answer, good. Unknown Speaker 1:12:43 Luck lack of a better some of them that is not possible. So that is making that analysis. Again, sometimes that will allow us to go week after week. Time to Unknown Speaker 1:13:34 actually talk to you. Another thing is that I'm doing studies. Unknown Speaker 1:13:49 And there's a deal. There's hardly anything done. And my knowledge mailhot document. Unknown Speaker 1:13:57 He is one of the most explicit Unknown Speaker 1:14:00 in the radiation. Unknown Speaker 1:14:04 What I want to ask you Is he spoke a lot about how the movement of the Mexican, Mexican United States goes by families. Yeah. What do you think is happening right now? Unknown Speaker 1:14:19 When women come to this country, when they come to call the husbands? Only without notice, is only possible. Unknown Speaker 1:14:30 Yeah. I think that's why a lot of the urban stuff is very, Unknown Speaker 1:14:39 has a tremendous impact on families, people tend to separate Unknown Speaker 1:14:43 and watch a lot of the Puerto Rican migration Unknown Speaker 1:14:49 systems and all work in government. Industry. But it's so hard to come up with I get it that stuff there's like there's some standards that people know what it is and it just really depends on particularly good at retail suffocation Unknown Speaker 1:15:22 either they don't want to choose Unknown Speaker 1:15:23 society within the second generation the kinds of apathetic attitude my options were but compared to kids, young Mexican Unknown Speaker 1:15:53 just well you want to skip that immigrants you know, the mental mentality is very different than in terms of you know, this is the land of something and you're gonna make it work they know and that's also partly why I think we get this tremendous dropout rates in the black and Hispanic students, urban high schools after the big push, you know, stay in school, you know, don't be dropped out Unknown Speaker 1:16:23 and people stay in Unknown Speaker 1:16:23 school and they didn't get jobs so they know that and now you're often dealing with you know, the conditions of work in schools have been like even more excruciating either you know that that people know that the past character parents ask you this in college you know, Unknown Speaker 1:16:47 there used to be less interested in your any ticket with a lottery ticket Unknown Speaker 1:16:56 so that's kind of really feel for them it's harder to get people to stay Unknown Speaker 1:17:04 but then people will tell you that the immigrants Unknown Speaker 1:17:05 that are coming in and once Unknown Speaker 1:17:09 again, you have to realize that to understand that you need a structure Why don't have survival for everybody, fairly happy for me. We talked about Unknown Speaker 1:17:39 you talked about Unknown Speaker 1:17:41 the stability not about Unknown Speaker 1:17:46 memories of of mother's mother Unknown Speaker 1:17:49 and my father years ago Unknown Speaker 1:17:55 and they got so you have to behave the way you had to put in twice as much College and I'm working now I've gotten a college degree ticket, Unknown Speaker 1:18:18 a job making more money than to get exactly the same thing because you're in the minority. Unknown Speaker 1:18:30 I mean, not only is that good for your corporation Unknown Speaker 1:18:35 it's good for them to protecting the customer. And I want it to be twice as good Unknown Speaker 1:18:51 it's interesting because it's so important. Unknown Speaker 1:18:58 Better otherwise you wouldn't be there. It's interesting because often white people think that once racial ethnic people get to college, who aren't middle class and they're just like white people and don't realize the Unknown Speaker 1:19:23 continued racism that people think Unknown Speaker 1:19:27 as and I think the way people were raised in learn you have to be twice as Unknown Speaker 1:19:33 good to get recognition and people who sit there and talk about Unknown Speaker 1:19:43 white status in my class who were who didn't do as well as I got much more attention Unknown Speaker 1:19:50 was rewarded Unknown Speaker 1:19:52 and that it's only when you super secure receive notice that, and that you're, you're you learned that you have to be Unknown Speaker 1:20:05 on your guard all the time, you're not allowed to make any sense. And that that continues when you Unknown Speaker 1:20:11 have a college degree and when you have a doctorate because you are a member of the Unknown Speaker 1:20:18 p value ratio group Unknown Speaker 1:20:20 energy value sets. Unknown Speaker 1:20:23 And that that gets played out all the time. You know, and I think one of the things is that people are not aware of the racism that they can. They're not aware of the sexism that they can, when you talk to women who teach maybe, Unknown Speaker 1:20:37 you know, being a foreigner, you're not going to move out in the rest of the world, Unknown Speaker 1:20:42 students will criticize female teacher much more quickly to being precise. You know, they will sit there and they will go screw you didn't do this, and you're sad. And you say, I'm gonna say this, Unknown Speaker 1:20:54 when rather than Unknown Speaker 1:20:56 they will criticize a black teacher much faster than and black women teachers. Unknown Speaker 1:21:03 And I basically, I had to develop this, I mean, they're Unknown Speaker 1:21:06 not talking about, they're talking about all those images. Unknown Speaker 1:21:12 And it and it Unknown Speaker 1:21:13 makes life a constant for the people. But people they don't, they don't even know what they're doing. They don't know that that is one of the levels of sexism that we have as a society, they think sexism is just that you can't get this job. You know, they think that sexism is just the female teachers telling you that you don't really want to study biology wouldn't you be much happier than something and they don't realize that that goes much deeper than that. And that women and racial ethnic women and the ratio of pupils puts when you face that one of the things that you know, work is not doing what you learn to do not saying yes, not being very saying no and people tend to stop and think you might not lose your job I mean I don't know that I have the phone I would say Unknown Speaker 1:22:35 themselves but everybody so that this interesting personal story and I think that step to find out Unknown Speaker 1:22:46 you're not alone in that Unknown Speaker 1:22:47 I mean, of course you know that but Scott and I have constant support from people who are struggling with the same issues Unknown Speaker 1:23:12 you noticed this sound familiar? No, do not do that. We've had each other Unknown Speaker 1:23:17 and we help we give each other support and we give each other support carving out laws. Unknown Speaker 1:23:29 The other thing that happens is that women who moved from Unknown Speaker 1:23:32 different great professional zones Unknown Speaker 1:23:35 you know, they talked about neglect the personal you know, and I think for women to have a personal life as well as a career is a struggle and that they have does Unknown Speaker 1:23:51 and then University and I get to work Unknown Speaker 1:24:02 a lot harder and do a lot more. Unknown Speaker 1:24:05 And I've been told what to remember it used to program but I ended up filling that void for them and they use me to help but at the same time I'd like you know, haven't played up to a lot of bad things that I haven't watched. Now my grandson thing I don't have the luxury of doing that, you know, they're not doing anything so institutional continue Other than that, yeah, yeah. Unknown Speaker 1:24:46 That's why I mean, it's interesting, and that's why it's very important for people to talk to each other. I mean, it's interesting that you know, the days of consciousness raising our consciousness have been raised the days of needing your support to do Whatever we can see, will never end. And the people to kind of do the work and get together for most apartments, have potlucks happens Unknown Speaker 1:25:11 once every three weeks. And you know, when they're Unknown Speaker 1:25:14 in go and get replenished, here's it your experiences are not meant to do. It's not what you're not doing or doing. But it really has a lot to do with structural issues, because women are going to catch them all. And some women are going to catch more health benefits. But there is no way you're not. Unknown Speaker 1:25:38 A lot of what works. And I think that even just the middle, and upper middle class in black and white, I think it is extremely important to start projecting the traditional notions of work and work aspirations and what what it would mean, and what kind of jobs you're looking for. Now, this isn't so easy, given the economic situation. But I do think that, you know, that the only way that we're gonna be able to get beyond some of these cases, is, you know, defining and redefining ourselves, the meaning of work in our lives and the nature of work in our lives. And it relates to having your personal life, and not just medically the male model, what needs to be successful for the one thing that seems to be helpful in a way is that not to minimize the double oppression of black and Hispanic and other women of color. I think, given what's happening in the country, that more and more people feel that and that can be born. And it was in the Canada. Unknown Speaker 1:26:58 abortion. Unknown Speaker 1:27:03 Service and constitutional rights in terms of course, nothing, but all women have to realize how attacks on poor women and on women of color are in the way of testing them. So I could have anything come down. I think in terms of former boss so and demand female people, yeah, I think there's still going to be more. But more and more just filtering down. And at a certain point, people can't realize that Unknown Speaker 1:27:36 sometimes, like filtering. Now, Unknown Speaker 1:27:40 I mean, it's like really encroach the kinds of I think you're very right. And I think that as wells gets incredibly concentrated, and the nature of the nature of work is changing for everybody. It's changing for academics, who now have to count bodies in the person. It doesn't matter. I mean, the cut used to teach, of course, it's gonna get students in there. The more career oriented, the better, even if it has nothing to do with people's abilities to get jobs. But it means to very, very tremendous changes the nature of work for academics as it filters down is there a support for secretaries Unknown Speaker 1:28:20 to smuggle? You know, to get them to do it? Unknown Speaker 1:28:23 No, okay with the word processing and they can easily assess that happening Unknown Speaker 1:28:29 across the board and Unknown Speaker 1:28:32 middle class people have been taught that they can avoid they can escape so they can get out of it and they're facing very much. Unknown Speaker 1:29:05 What's up have been totally changed, focusing on okay Unknown Speaker 1:29:33 my experience in life and then we cannot fit into that white and black side at the top. How racism operates in the society and I don't think so easy. I think we really have plenty of time on this. Because the responsibility of feminist analysis is Because that really includes of what the question raises a few examples about how this definitely was given us plugged in and all of a sudden Unknown Speaker 1:30:17 that all may seem a little odd as a lead. And then you're trying to talk about commerce. Because it isn't so simple. That was great except that in fact, women were Unknown Speaker 1:30:30 starving. When it happened using Lightning, this was supposed to be the racist and those